Eunice Sari on being a trouble maker, pioneering new ways, and building society

Dr Eunice Sari is the CEO and Co-Founder of UX Indonesia, the first UX Research, Training and Consulting Company based in Indonesia, among many other ‘first’ roles and achievements. She has more than 15 years of experience in academia and industry. In this conversation Eunice shares her career trajectory working and studying in Indonesia, Denmark, Finland and Australia. A common pattern is, as she calls it, making trouble and seeing new possibilities, whether this is applying participatory design methods to service design before it was a thing, or starting a UX company in Indonesia where people had never heard of UX previously. What also comes through are culture-specific aspects, whether it is about working around career expectations for her as a girl in Indonesia or having to re-think management strategies that work in western contexts but have to be re-thought in her company. Eunice makes trouble though to make a difference and she is passionate about service and what she calls building society. She also shares her personal routines and strategies for managing all that she does and how having to work from home because of COVID is a blessing in disguise.

“In Indonesia or in Asia, you can make more impact to more people if you have enough education.”

“I always make trouble because I want to start something new, I want to break the norms, I want to go outside the box. And if I don’t have this PhD thing, it’s not about myself [or being called doctor] but in this region that position is very important. It actually helps you to make a difference and to change a lot of things. A kind of enabler.”

[Service/volunteer work] “builds society and when society is built, the impact is to you as well as you can have a better conversation.”

“My [management] style is to give you a goal you need to achieve and you sort it out for yourself. That’s more western minded and I’ve had to learn from my mistakes and give more specific instruction.”

Full Transcript available here (thanks to Claudia, Personal Research Assistant of Eunice Sari!)

Overview (times approximate):

02:10 Current COVID experiences

06:20 From a study/career for an Indonesian girl to starting a company

21:15 Doing her Masters and working in Denmark

35:11 Starting a PhD in Finland

41:00 Doing service, making a difference

47:10 Managing people, building a company

57:20 Family and COVID times

01:03:50 Final comments

1:06:00 End

In more detail, she talks about…

02:10 Current COVID experiences

2:10 Eunice discusses the impact of COVID for her personally and for her work and company; and that her people in Indonesia do not like working from home

06:20 From a study/career for an Indonesian girl to starting a company

6:20 Eunice talks about wanting to be a doctor but it being difficult in Indonesia, the complication being a girl – girls were not expected to have a high career. Also interested in doing something with technology but also not supported as a girl. Instead she was encouraged to learn English and become a teacher. Loved working with people. Also always likes to raise difficult issues.

10:45 One thing she was really interested in was CBT computer-based teaching and learning. Worked as a research assistant to try to get connections and also looking for opportunity to go overseas. After several years, got a scholarship to study in Japan. Studied culture and language in Japan and also created two research projects for herself when only one needed. Went to school from 7-10 every day and it was fascinating. A language study and a suicide study.

14:20 That was early 2000. So she got interested in user research and technology. In 2001 she was helping Josh, now her partner in the company – they were from the same university. His background was in computer science. He had the opportunity to study in Denmark at DTU where Jakob Nielsen studied and became interested in usability. Josh asked her to help him, analyzing usability issues with website, doing UX work. This was 2001.

17:50 When he got back to Indonesia they started a company together, called TranslateEasy. Websites were just starting to get popular. A lot of the websites were in English and wanted to make these resources available in Indonesian. Used her language skills to do transfer to Indonesia in a contextual manner. Didn’t have a lot of knowledge then so learnt everything herself.

19:48 Talks about the difference between Jakob Nielsen starting something in the US where everything is just accepted and starting a UX company in Indonesia. They both started around the same time. But in Indonesia they had to teach people from the very beginning. Started translating people’s websites then when asked why were the results so good, they could say it was because they did user research.

21:15 Doing her Masters and working in Denmark

21:15 Being a girl and starting a company was not a problem, but being a girl and starting a technology-related company was a problem. In the beginning it was josh facing the clients. In Indonesia, at that time education was really important. A higher education from overseas was also really helpful in making people believe they know what they are doing. She also had to do her study properly and she went to Denmark. “In don’t believe in learning something without knowing I can do it!” So try doing it herself then. It is an investment and a privilege.

So she had this company and then the problem of how she could improve her skills and how to bridge that, when she has a background in education and language. She found what Jacob Buur was doing interesting as he was doing interdisciplinary work. She put in an application and was accepted. Everything was free at this time. She got this privilege to study in Denmark for 2 years. Helped with foundations to learn interaction design.

25:05 And as she said, she always looks for trouble. When doing her masters, she did a lot of crazy things. First person to volunteer at Chi and submit papers. People said why is she doing this but it was because she wanted to do this. Got paper accepted to HCII2004 conference and also accepted to CHI2004 in Vienna, as student volunteer. Paid her own way. Helped to build her confidence and network. The second trouble maker thing. Had to do participatory design (PD) activities as part of the research. And that changed her life a lot. Tried to do something different from everyone else who went to a company doing a product, a tangible thing people can see what it is. But she wanted to do something else and did a PD in a supermarket, in intangible things, to show you can still design something such as a service. Some argued it wasn’t user centred design. She stood her ground.

29:52 (She says this was 2013 but it was actually 2003). No-one helped her find a company as not PD. So found her own supermarket company and a company IBM who were interested in her thesis. Moved to Aarhus. Getting a lot of help from Kim Halskov. Sent to Germany for work too – trolleys with RFID. Masters thesis was not UX per se but re-positioning UX, looking at it from a different perspective, designing a service. In 2004 there was the first writing by someone else in service design. She didn’t’ get to publish her own work - always starts things too early. Continuing to grow awareness of people in Indonesia of what they are doing. Changed her life.

35:11 Starting a PhD in Finland

35:11 After Denmark, wanted to do a PhD. Ended up doing her PhD in Finland, with a government scholarship, to do something with technology and education and UX. Did that for 2 years when they usually only support for 6 months. Then had to be self-sufficient and it was hard to survive. So decided to give up. But just needed to submit PhD thesis. Gave up her 2 years study and hoped to be able to continue. Actually planning still to submit her thesis in a year.  In her work as an opportunity to work with lots of teachers, as pro bono work. And write a book.

38:05 So went back to Asia to continue her other RFID business. Had a company based in Singapore where they know about UX more. Then got an offer to do her PhD in Australia. A hard decision as she was in the top of her career. Should she give up and become a student again? Deciding factors – from context, from beginning, always wanted to do a PhD. In Indonesia or in Asia, you can make more impact to more people if you have enough education.  “I always make trouble because I want to start something new, I want to break the norms, I want to go outside the box. And if I don’t have this PhD thing, it’s not about myself [or being called doctor] but in this region that position is very important. It actually helps you … to make a difference and to change a lot of things. … A kind of enabler.”

41:00 Doing service, making a difference

41:00 Where does her service ethic come from?  She talks about her service ethic. She was so lucky and blessed to get lots of support and resources from people and the SIGHI community. It was inspiring. So it is about making things available for other people. Her heart can’t stay still when she knows people can’t get things. Talks about her work in SIGCHI Chapters and volunteering. A labour of love. Also has to do some paid work to eat. But also volunteering – meetups for a lot of people who have never heard about what you are doing and what other people are doing around the world – we can learn, and that actually builds society and when society is built, the impact is to you as well as you can have a better conversation. Her love of service and making her feel fulfilled and being part of something. Very rewarding when people send messages to say she has been an influence on them.

47:10 Managing people, building a company

47:10 Talks about the people in her company. About 10 people right now. Some people aren’t able to survive in this (COVID) season. Miss the role of face to face. Some people feel it is important for you to look to see what they are doing and get feedback. But that’s something she can’t always do all the time. Those who are successful have been with them a long time, have a really good work ethic without her micro-managing them. She doesn’t like micromanaging people. Her style is to give you a goal you need to achieve and you sort it out for yourself. That’s more western minded and she has had to learn from her mistakes and give more specific instruction. Wouldn’t generalize this as a cultural thing.

51:55 In 2013 changed company name to UX Indonesia and that’s when she started having a lot of people working for her. And starting to use OKR (objectives, key results), asking the manger and team to think through objectives and key results at different time frames, and then break down to what needs to be done. Loves to do this exercise with lots of start ups around the world but when she started to do that in her company it did not work so well. It’s a completely new way of thinking. So then she created the objective and key result and then her team leaders were able to do that after some time. But can still say just tell me what to do. Probably a gap of knowledge. Not that they are unable to do it but afraid to make mistakes. 

55:50 Talks about her core strength as a leader. Good at creating new business, creating new opportunities. Good at following up and completing. Quite detailed. So has high expectation of how people do things, not to her standard but has to be done properly. In Indonesia UX is quite a new thing and she doesn’t like shortcuts. So she teaches people in UX. People would not have this UX title in her company unless they go through a certain process. Talks about the importance of maintaining quality as UX practitioners and doing UX properly. Creating quality standards.

57:20 Family and COVID times

57:20 How does family fit into all of this? Talks about family being very independent and being a happy mum. When travelling this isn’t in her head. The kids now need a lot of attention not just as parent but friend. COVID situation a blessing in disguise having to work from home makes her available to her kids when they want to talk and also good for her to learn how to set boundaries. Working 8am-10pm every day. But always make family a priority. Spend a lot of time outside in outdoor activities and spending a lot of time together. But before that when she travels, she spends hours on her Whatsapp and phone. Would not go to sleep without spending time with her kids and husband. They are the centre of your life. 

01:01:30 Where does she draw her own strength? Learning to prioritise what is important. A long list of things to do. Kids all have a to do list. Starts every morning with time for herself. Prays. Walks. Will not start her day without doing these things. Does the same thing at night. To open and close. Sometimes misses out but causes stress.

01:03:50 Final comments

1:06:00 End

Related Links: UXIndonesia, SIGCHI Chapters, CHIUxID conference

People: Jakob Nielsen, Jacob Buur, Kim Halskov

This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy