Johanna Stadlbauer on boundaries, agency, and community building (CAL125, S6 E19)
Johanna Stadlbauer is an anthropologist working in researcher development at the University of Graz, recently made Head of Research Careers Campus Graz. Her mission is a more fun and kind academia. Johanna shares the experiences and challenges of her journey from a PhD to quitting a postdoc in anthropology, to doing NGO work part-time, and then coming back to academia for a researcher development role. Her work now is focused on creating a supportive and kind academic environment, with the aim to improve researcher well-being and foster a sense of community. She discusses establishing structures for postdoctoral researchers' support and community, and highlights initiatives like the writing retreat, Fiasco Fest, and peer mentoring, which aim to improve researcher well-being and foster a sense of community. Johanna is a role model for how to navigate a career path and your work role on your own terms. She is really clear on her own boundaries, and what she needs to feed herself and look after her work-life balance. She also reminds us the value of peer support, of telling people their contributions matter, and of taking the time to savour the good. She reminds us of the significance of agency, community support, and the need for transparency and understanding in academia.
00:00 CAL125 Johanna Stadlbauer
03:03 Introduction and Guest Background
03:56 Journey from Anthropology to Research Development
06:18 Postdoc Experience and Challenges
07:42 Deciding to Quit the PostDoc
12:05 Transition to NGO Work
15:57 Finding Balance and Setting Boundaries
19:47 Messaging in Academia
23:35 Permanent Contract and Current Role
29:27 Towards a Fun and Kind Academia and Experiences of Power Abuse
31:26 Finding Solutions and Positive Structures
33:31 Balancing Critique and Support in Academia
35:58 Empowering Postdocs and Addressing Structural Issues
40:12 The Importance of Community, Peer Support and Mentoring
49:39 Promoting Good Working Environments for Researcher Wellbeing
52:03 Personal Reflections and Final Thoughts
56:53 End
Related Links
Johanna's web page (English version)
Head of Research Careers Campus Graz
Researcher Development in Graz Blog
LinkedIn pages for Johanna, the PostDoc Office, and Research Careers Campus Graz
The Coalition for Advancing Research Assessment (CoARA)
Max Planck PhD Net
Balint Group Method
Transcript
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
Speaker:I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is a podcast series where academics and
Speaker:others share their stories, provide ideas, and provoke discussions about what
Speaker:we can do individually and collectively to change academic life for the better.
Speaker:On your own terms.
Speaker:That's not just a platitude, it's how Johanna Stadlbauer has
Speaker:navigated her career to date.
Speaker:I have the pleasure of presenting this conversation with Johanna's,
Speaker:an anthropologist by background, and currently heading up researcher
Speaker:development at the University of Graz, where she's head of the
Speaker:research careers campus Graz.
Speaker:Johanna has a really interesting journey herself from a PhD and a postdoc in
Speaker:anthropology, to then deciding to quit the postdoc because it wasn't working for her.
Speaker:She then talks about working with various NGOs and doing that work part-time because
Speaker:of the health issues that had resulted from previous work experiences, and then
Speaker:how she eventually came back to academia for this researcher development role.
Speaker:So her work now is squarely focused on creating a supportive
Speaker:and kind academic environment.
Speaker:She talks about how they're working to establish various structures for
Speaker:supporting postdoctoral researchers and for helping to create community.
Speaker:And this includes initiatives like a writing retreat and a fiasco
Speaker:fest that I really loved, and various peer mentoring initiatives.
Speaker:All with the aim of creating better workplaces that will result in improving
Speaker:research and researcher wellbeing, and also fostering that sense of community.
Speaker:I think Johanna is a role model herself for how to navigate a career path with
Speaker:integrity and authenticity and resilience and defining work on your own terms.
Speaker:She's really clear on her own boundaries and what she needs to do to feed herself
Speaker:and to look after her own wellbeing.
Speaker:And this conversation reminds us of the value of peer support, of clear
Speaker:communication, of telling people their contributions matter, that they matter,
Speaker:and to take time to savor the good.
Speaker:She also reminds us that we all do have some agency to
Speaker:define work on our own terms.
Speaker:Enjoy this conversation with Johanna.
Speaker:Johanna, thank you so much for joining me and I'm going to read
Speaker:the first little paragraph from your webpage 'cause it says, I'm an
Speaker:anthropologist working in researcher development at the University of Graz.
Speaker:I'm head of the research careers campus and my mission is a
Speaker:more fun and kind academia.
Speaker:So those strands point to what I'd really love to explore with you.
Speaker:First of all, what's the journey that brought you from anthropology
Speaker:to working in researcher development?
Speaker:Thank you, Geraldine.
Speaker:It's an honor because I really like your podcast and, it's
Speaker:called Changing Academic Life.
Speaker:So I think that's something we are both, invested in our own
Speaker:ways and maybe even both as, with a love for anthropology as well.
Speaker:And it's a big question, how does one go from anthropology
Speaker:to a researcher development?
Speaker:And I try to answer it now, but I always, feel or I have the
Speaker:conviction that an anthropology degree prepares you for every role.
Speaker:And it's an asset to have in, every job.
Speaker:Because I have so many friends who studied with me who, use their anthropology
Speaker:skills in, I don't know, in the innovation sector, in the business sector.
Speaker:Many different roles.
Speaker:And personally, I like to work with people who are very curious about humans.
Speaker:And very aware of society and how, it shapes, and it's stratified like
Speaker:how gender roles in society shape how we interact with each other, how,
Speaker:class and, our family background, shapes our pathways and, all the
Speaker:different discriminations there are.
Speaker:So I think that's, that's an asset to have in any kind of job.
Speaker:And personally, I came into researcher development via equality work.
Speaker:And I came to equality work via doing gender studies in anthropology.
Speaker:I have a background in thinking about methods as well in anthropology.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:that comes in handy if you can do qualitative research.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:what needs your target group have If you are serving a specific target group, you
Speaker:know how to, find out, what they want and.
Speaker:Through my previous roles.
Speaker:I also know how to make a program and I know, how to develop offers, how to
Speaker:make a concept for something and how to evaluate it and see if it has an impact.
Speaker:So that's the short of it.
Speaker:I love that you've just talked about really clear skills, ways of thinking.
Speaker:that can be transferable in lots of different, domains.
Speaker:the fact that you've brought it here.
Speaker:What about the decision process to get Into researcher development?
Speaker:So did you do, you did a PhD in anthropology in, at Graz.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And did you do postdoc research?
Speaker:How was that postdoc journey?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So I studied in Graz and I, did some field work.
Speaker:So for my, MA I did some field work in New Zealand, which
Speaker:I've told you about previously.
Speaker:It's roughly the area where,
Speaker:it's roughly near Australia and a long way away.
Speaker:In that it's quite a bit, quite far away from Austria.
Speaker:And, for my PhD, I did field work in Austria with expatriates.
Speaker:So people who were here for short term work stays.
Speaker:So two, three years, four years, two years, and were very mobile.
Speaker:had a life of, going to different companies around the world.
Speaker:And, I caught them at the time where they were in Austria.
Speaker:And after that, a new anthropology professor from Germany came to
Speaker:Carinthia and, they, he wanted someone from Austria to familiarize him
Speaker:with the Austrian academic cultures.
Speaker:And so I got that job.
Speaker:And so I did a postdoc for two years, in Carinthia, which is
Speaker:a, it's a great university.
Speaker:Everyone is really friendly there.
Speaker:And I was let into all the working groups for equality and, my own
Speaker:qualitative research network and so on.
Speaker:But, after two years out of a six year contract, I realized,
Speaker:This is, too strenuous.
Speaker:So I have too little inspiration, for research projects.
Speaker:And I have, too high workloads because I was also responsible
Speaker:for the curricular development.
Speaker:So I had to plan the department's teaching program for the year and, give all
Speaker:the students their degrees basically.
Speaker:And so I had students in my office all the time.
Speaker:But, yes, but that wasn't
Speaker:That sounds like a lot to ask of a first, second year out postdoc.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But at that time it was only me and my boss, at the department,
Speaker:and of course a brilliant secretary who was basically doing my job.
Speaker:I, did a lot of it, but she had the institutional knowledge.
Speaker:that was brilliant.
Speaker:I'm just curious, if the role had have been less of the teaching curriculum
Speaker:development and more space for research, do you, could you imagine, I know it's
Speaker:imagining a world that didn't happen, but could you imagine that you may have been
Speaker:able to get inspiration for research?
Speaker:It might have been.
Speaker:I had more brain space.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But that's still something I'm very proud of.
Speaker:I even advocated for myself, I went to the vice director for staff and told
Speaker:him that this is untenable, and then he reduced my teaching, which was, useful.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:and,
Speaker:but I, just really lacked, I was in a slump after the PhD, basically, as is
Speaker:apparently normal in academic careers.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Who am I now?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I didn't have between conferences, my boss telling me I need to apply for third party
Speaker:funding this, curriculum development.
Speaker:I had no inspiration for any sort of direction I wanted
Speaker:to go in with my research.
Speaker:I started a project, but I abandoned it gladly.
Speaker:After I quit that job.
Speaker:I always had this, question in the back of my mind, is that right for me?
Speaker:And so I went to therapy and talked about with the therapist
Speaker:and said, I can't make this work.
Speaker:Everyone is saying you need to work 60 hours.
Speaker:I cannot work 60 hours and I don't want it.
Speaker:And he said, then find your own way to do it.
Speaker:And then I just quit.
Speaker:So
Speaker:That's, that's brave.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But it's, yeah, I've, talked this through with colleagues and some of them said, the
Speaker:whole university basically said it's brave because it's a very small university.
Speaker:So it was, I got lots of calls saying, why did you quit from
Speaker:the team, upwards and downwards.
Speaker:And everyone was applauding me a little bit for this decision.
Speaker:But I had a boyfriend then who had his own flat.
Speaker:And so I had a secure financial background.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:In that sense.
Speaker:And I was then able to have a job for one or two years where
Speaker:I earned only 1,300 Euros.
Speaker:So by having this living space basically, and
Speaker:I had the feedback from other people who aren't as financially secure in
Speaker:academia, that it's actually not that brave, and who are still in academia
Speaker:because that's the only way they can have an income for the whole family.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:which is that parents, sister and so on.
Speaker:It's hard, isn't it?
Speaker:And the, trade offs and, the circumstances, they're not easy decisions.
Speaker:If you didn't have that safety net, maybe you couldn't have done it and you
Speaker:would, would've been like some other people, as you just said, who stayed on,
Speaker:then there's the cost of that untenable.
Speaker:Yeah, I, I would still have done it pretty, yeah.
Speaker:Because if you just have too much then, or you can't make it work then.
Speaker:I've always been taught by my mother to leave things behind and
Speaker:she has modeled that basically.
Speaker:And so that's always my approach.
Speaker:if it's more sad making than is happy making, then I'm not doing it.
Speaker:so I'm a bit uncompromising in that.
Speaker:But it's, important to recognize also that, privilege that not everyone has
Speaker:when they make the career decisions.
Speaker:And then I thankfully found lots of different jobs through none of them
Speaker:through, regular applications, but through networks that I already had.
Speaker:so one woman from Carinthia knew, a man in Graz who ran, run an
Speaker:NGO for youth and equality work.
Speaker:And so I worked with him for a year on a project on antisemitism that
Speaker:was, From funded from a political, education body and from the municipality.
Speaker:that was also a time when I had many health issues, I think, due to
Speaker:having been so stressed out earlier.
Speaker:So at that time, a chronic illness manifested itself.
Speaker:So I had a 15 hour job and I was able to go there, and do all of it,
Speaker:and still be very chronically ill.
Speaker:but that thankfully, got better over time and these mini NGO contracts were
Speaker:quite good for that because I didn't have to be in the office all the time.
Speaker:Nice.
Speaker:So Nice.
Speaker:And that gave me the start into this NGO work, NGO research education
Speaker:work, where you do needs analysis.
Speaker:And then prepare educational concepts from them with this specific
Speaker:background was antisemitism prevention.
Speaker:and then I moved through a woman who works at the university or
Speaker:worked at the University of Graz in the equality office for 30 years.
Speaker:I think she connected me with another NGO, which is the Männer Beratung in Graz.
Speaker:So the men's counseling center also, decades old institution,
Speaker:which has a research path, which is also quite old already.
Speaker:And they do lots of EU Daphne violence preventative grants.
Speaker:So they apply for grants a lot and have about 10 to 15 ongoing projects,
Speaker:which are funded by the EU or by different health, funding bodies or
Speaker:by municipality, province and so on.
Speaker:Or even by people who contract them for,
Speaker:institutions that have a problem with violence, or sexual abuse, for
Speaker:example, and need them to come in and do research and then find out
Speaker:how to make the institution better.
Speaker:I got that connection and they took me on, in five different research,
Speaker:project projects in a 15 hour contract.
Speaker:So that was, lots of business trips nicely.
Speaker:So I got to go, I got to go to Sofia and to Southern Tyrol, and to,
Speaker:Barcelona for all these EU projects.
Speaker:Nice.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Very good.
Speaker:But all of them were on the topic of, preventing sexual abuse against boys.
Speaker:Or sexualized violence, and discrimination against boys and training people
Speaker:who work with children to create an environment where these children can
Speaker:tell them that this is happening.
Speaker:So I did that for three years until I couldn't take it anymore because
Speaker:that's also a job where you would need a lot of community with your
Speaker:colleagues and a lot of, supervision.
Speaker:And through this third party funding, framework, there wasn't really a lot of
Speaker:time to spend time with the colleagues, in the office because it was, the
Speaker:colleagues were all over Europe basically.
Speaker:And, the people who headed the institute also had quite bit on their plate.
Speaker:So I quit that then, and that there we come to 2020.
Speaker:so that's just, another example of you being very reflective
Speaker:of what's going on for me.
Speaker:What do I need, what's working for me now and when is it not working anymore?
Speaker:And time to go.
Speaker:Like your mother.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Role model again.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And by that time I also had this chronic illness, so that taught me never
Speaker:to do more than I think I can take.
Speaker:Because I really, I. So that manifested in 2016 and then, in 2020, I was
Speaker:still, so much in the throes of it that I always stated my boundaries
Speaker:very clearly to every employer.
Speaker:And I'm also really proud of, I've had, to, while I was working at the NGOI was
Speaker:also working at the German University remotely to do also violence prevention.
Speaker:And I, that was a, I think four month, six month remote contract.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:I did a curative retreat during that because in the Austrian state
Speaker:you can go on curative retreats, so for the chronic illness.
Speaker:So I had a job in Germany, in the German system and a job in Austria, both
Speaker:of them part-time and partly remote.
Speaker:And I told everyone, I'm now going on this curative retreat because I need it.
Speaker:And I somehow made it work through all that administration and both
Speaker:employers were just happy with it.
Speaker:And yeah.
Speaker:So I was, basically on a journey since 2016 to tell everyone my
Speaker:boundaries and the conditions under which I want to work and, that's good.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You said, the people made it work or were happy with it.
Speaker:And you also, when you said before that you quit the first postdoc
Speaker:job and So many people said, why?
Speaker:and in the end were supportive in that.
Speaker:Were you surprised by people support, were you anticipating more pushback or that
Speaker:people would not want you to be holding your boundaries and, do what they wanted?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:yeah, I was neither surprised, nor did I anticipate that it
Speaker:would be un uncomfortable.
Speaker:Obviously my boss very much when he brought me on as a postdoc saw himself
Speaker:in the role as supporting my career.
Speaker:And looking back, I can understand everything he did
Speaker:as trying to be supportive.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:When I was, only 30 and not have, not having been in academia for
Speaker:very long, I didn't recognize it.
Speaker:And I recognized it more as him putting pressure on me and reacted as such.
Speaker:And, in that sense, I obviously, I felt very bad about quitting
Speaker:this job after two years and he.
Speaker:He was all on the journey with me for a long time.
Speaker:In fact, in that talk where I told him I quit, he said he would try
Speaker:to negotiate a development contract for me to keep me on for longer.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I just said, no thank you.
Speaker:And then obviously he told me, then I'm not going to support you anymore, which.
Speaker:Also wasn't necessary, but I managed, despite being so strong with my
Speaker:boundaries, I think everyone, remembers me not in a, adversarial manner.
Speaker:So he, still called me up two years later to ask, can I come back for half a year?
Speaker:Because someone has just gone on.
Speaker:Oh, nice.
Speaker:Yeah, it's nice.
Speaker:So it's a just, a good message that you can hold your
Speaker:boundaries and make that work.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think if you're generally a nice person to work with.
Speaker:Yeah, And respectful of the people and, to let them know
Speaker:it's also, yeah.
Speaker:It's also just interesting, for people who are in leadership roles
Speaker:or employing people like postdocs, that tension of wanting to support
Speaker:people's career development.
Speaker:And recognizing the pressures of the current environment
Speaker:and system that we're in.
Speaker:And often that does, this inadvertently translate into some pressures to
Speaker:play the game more and work the long hours and tick all the boxes and
Speaker:on that, if I had just had more knowledge about how academia works,
Speaker:and if he had just explained, why he wants me to do this, that and the
Speaker:other, and in what way this would contribute to my path, I might have
Speaker:understood and not rejected it so much.
Speaker:so he just said, you Johanna now it's time, you're on the six year contract
Speaker:to apply for third party funding.
Speaker:And I just didn't understand.
Speaker:I didn't understand that I now needed to be the PI of my own project
Speaker:and I need to develop leadership and I need to go out there with
Speaker:my own ideas and be independent.
Speaker:And he also explained none of it.
Speaker:And there was also no structure in place, like a postdoc office or,
Speaker:something that would have drawn me in to explain me these things somehow.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And he didn't really do much explaining because all of them in that generation,
Speaker:they all learned by doing basically.
Speaker:And I tried for the longest time to just model what everyone
Speaker:else was doing without really understanding why they were doing it.
Speaker:Going to lots of conferences.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:That's good.
Speaker:Not really having an intention behind it other than that
Speaker:I saw what they were doing.
Speaker:And then, you have your people who stand up in front of, training for women,
Speaker:career training for women, and say, you're going to work on the weekends.
Speaker:It's going to be hard.
Speaker:And so all of these messages I took on board and thought, okay, some people say
Speaker:this, so some people must also do this.
Speaker:And where do I fit in that?
Speaker:And that was, also what led me to quit because I thought, if there's no one
Speaker:else who does it like I do it, who does it to my abilities with weekends and
Speaker:family time and, friends and going to the sauna and stuff like that, then
Speaker:how am I going to do this and how am, how will I be where I need to be
Speaker:with all these impermanent contracts?
Speaker:And yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, but all of that was solved very quickly after I, I left this
Speaker:job because despite having then these many, contract jobs, I, felt there's
Speaker:so many people who want my skills and they are also appreciative.
Speaker:And the NGO world, is not shy with giving praise.
Speaker:then the, then academia was for me, and there's not a reviewer, around every
Speaker:corner who you have to network with.
Speaker:There's just people who are happy for the mission, wanting to end violence, or
Speaker:wanting to engage youth or, wanting the world to be a much better place and they
Speaker:celebrate everyone who comes on board basically, despite the obviously funding
Speaker:situation being shit and stressing.
Speaker:But, they, yeah, even that equality office in Germany, they were, really,
Speaker:really appreciative and said, so nice that you are here with your skills.
Speaker:And just, took me with my remote contract and I got to meet
Speaker:everyone in the university because I did a project on preventing
Speaker:sexualized harassment on campus.
Speaker:So I had to do interviews with everyone from the president, to it
Speaker:service to all the dean and so on.
Speaker:And they just, welcomed me, as the strange Austrian.
Speaker:And so lots of healing experiences after academia.
Speaker:Ah, good.
Speaker:And, This stress about temporary contracts resolved itself a bit by me thinking, ah,
Speaker:okay, I have something that actually is in demand, or there are things happening
Speaker:for me and I have a good network.
Speaker:but that doesn't mean that I wasn't really happy when I got my
Speaker:first permanent contract in 2021.
Speaker:And what was your first permanent contract?
Speaker:in 2020 then when I didn't want to work on, preventing sexualized abuse anymore,
Speaker:another friend of mine said, oh, there's a maternity cover at the University
Speaker:of Graz to work with researchers.
Speaker:And then I thought, oh, that's going to be very traumatic.
Speaker:I think I do that
Speaker:Going back into the university.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'm not sure if I've, resolved everything from the last, since 2016, but I did
Speaker:it anyway and did that job interview.
Speaker:They are still, my colleagues are still fondly remembering, when they interviewed
Speaker:me that I said, I cannot work on a Friday, because that's when I get massages.
Speaker:So take it or leave it.
Speaker:And, sadly, I now have to work on Fridays because I'm much better.
Speaker:I have 40 hours now.
Speaker:But, they nevertheless, took this maternity cover and it was working
Speaker:with, doctoral researchers and then.
Speaker:And, actually already at the end of this year, the vice rector for Research, who
Speaker:is now the president of the Austrian Science Fund, who we were working for, he
Speaker:wanted to do something for postdoctoral researchers and then we started a needs
Speaker:assessment and, talking to a third of all the postdocs, the university had.
Speaker:And then together with him very closely, developing measures.
Speaker:And by the time he got the call to become the president of the Austrian Science
Speaker:Fund, that was all basically prepared.
Speaker:And, someone needed to give me a permanent job.
Speaker:they did it.
Speaker:And, since then, since 2021, end of 2021, I've I had the joy for 40
Speaker:hours a week on a permanent contract to build up this postdoc office.
Speaker:And now five years, no.
Speaker:Three, four years later, we established a new unit that now houses the doctoral
Speaker:researcher services, the postdoc office, and is also developing,
Speaker:services for mid-career researchers.
Speaker:And, I'm now its boss.
Speaker:So lovely.
Speaker:I'm very happy.
Speaker:Oh, that's, just a lovely journey.
Speaker:The holding your boundaries, the way things work out, the way that you can
Speaker:bring through the skills and knowledge and expertise that you have and pointing
Speaker:out along the way, like the critical things that we often don't think
Speaker:about, that the conversations that we have with people are so important.
Speaker:So no one told you the why because we just assume that everyone knows
Speaker:because it's just, it just is the environment that we are in.
Speaker:So not understanding why some of the things were being
Speaker:asked or, suggested or pushed.
Speaker:And then the messages that you were getting were, well of course you've got to
Speaker:work weekends and makes me really reflect about how how we are messaging, And how
Speaker:explicit we are with people to explain.
Speaker:And also like how many times as a researcher working in a university
Speaker:did someone say to you, so nice that you are here with your skills.
Speaker:Not so many times.
Speaker:And wouldn't that be wonderful if your professor said to you so nice that you
Speaker:are here with your skills, your skills.
Speaker:I have this card still here, above me and that I got when I came to Luneburg
Speaker:in Germany and that Christmas card where it has that, we are so happy
Speaker:that you're here with your skills.
Speaker:And it's, even though it's a Christian Christmas card for some reason because
Speaker:you had it lying around, I, I still have it because it's so important to me
Speaker:that I was able to make the switch and that I was able to meet these people
Speaker:who were healing me a little bit.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it's such a small gesture and look at the impact that it's still having.
Speaker:The fact that you do have the card there, that it's something that you remember and
Speaker:when you were talking about it, the way your face softened and lit up as well.
Speaker:just remembering, I don't know, it's almost like you were re-basking in
Speaker:the glow of that appreciation, such a small gesture, but so impactful.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And with these messages, I try not to stress any researchers out in my job now.
Speaker:I don't know how good I am at that, but I, try to tell stories in my workshops about
Speaker:people who make it work, 20 hours a week.
Speaker:And many different stories of all the people I know who, because I'm now seeking
Speaker:out these people who made their own path, that is not like this story of you have to
Speaker:work weekends and you cannot have friends.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I'm always looking for the stories and then I'm telling them to people.
Speaker:And I can also see the impact of this because I invited this friend
Speaker:of mine, for example, who has always.
Speaker:Worked in the same university and now has a permanent job there.
Speaker:And she comes from a, Gastarbeiter, or rather not a
Speaker:Gastarbeiter, a refugee family.
Speaker:And, I invited her to tell this to all of our postdocs, at one of our, annual event.
Speaker:And she actually inspired one person who also cannot be mobile because he cares for
Speaker:his parents, to ask for a permanent job.
Speaker:And he now has one.
Speaker:That's probably wasn't the only thing that inspired him.
Speaker:Probably it's his, skills and research brilliance and,
Speaker:and his negotiation, prowess.
Speaker:but I, saw he was talking to her afterwards, and so I'm,
Speaker:thinking, yeah, that's a little bit my contribution and yeah.
Speaker:So when you talk about fun and kind academia, is that your
Speaker:personal mission in your role?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:That fun and kind.
Speaker:That's the kindness aspect of it.
Speaker:That will be more the be kind to yourself,
Speaker:and seek out the people who are also collaborative and, solidarity.
Speaker:That was always what I tried, when I was working in academia, I did lots
Speaker:of peer group work, so this peer group for qualitative methods, alumni
Speaker:work, everything that brought people together, female accountability groups.
Speaker:So I don't really like accountability, so I didn't work very much, but just
Speaker:the female solidarity parts of it.
Speaker:And, I tried that as far as I could take it.
Speaker:Basically, this is solidarity and I, found it ends where someone needs to
Speaker:fulfill things, for their contracts.
Speaker:and then they can't collaborate anymore because they need, people on a
Speaker:higher level to collaborate with them.
Speaker:Or other, yeah, actual instances of power abuse, for example, I had a
Speaker:boss once who made me write a very bad review, of someone who she didn't like.
Speaker:And that was my very first publication ever.
Speaker:She just said, put in this one sentence, and I just put it in
Speaker:and, I obviously feel bad about it.
Speaker:It was like this wasn't very original or something, so it
Speaker:wasn't the worst thing ever.
Speaker:But obviously, an instance of power abuse because I was in my first job ever.
Speaker:not going to go into more details about this.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But.
Speaker:Many times actually, I cried when experienced that other people aren't
Speaker:as or cannot be or have been formed in such a way by the system that
Speaker:they cannot be collaborative and they cannot be, kind to each other.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And now, it's not that I'm taking revenge on the system, it's basically just that
Speaker:I'm taking a solution focused approach and drawing out all the things where
Speaker:people are nice to each other and where structures are working so that they can
Speaker:be nice to each other where they are establishing new structures, together.
Speaker:And there are so many instances of this anyway.
Speaker:When we talk, the postdoc office does a lot of influencing, on LinkedIn and in
Speaker:our workshops and public discussions and through speakers and so on, we always try
Speaker:to acknowledge the, harming structures or the bad things that are happening, but
Speaker:also, and that they are structural, but also the solutions that individuals find.
Speaker:And that actually things like CoARA, big, movements where that are aimed
Speaker:at changing the structures and it's not, everything is not doom and gloom
Speaker:and there are so many people who, get together and, form movements.
Speaker:yes.
Speaker:Yeah, that's so just fun and kind.
Speaker:It's just focusing on the Yeah.
Speaker:The nicer things that make it better for us.
Speaker:Just for people who may not be familiar with it CoARA is an initiative at
Speaker:European level, and it's the Coalition for Advancing Research Assessment.
Speaker:And they're part of really trying to shift some of the structural issues.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Reforming what we acknowledge as a research, good research performance.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So where doing things for your university also counts and doing
Speaker:things for the students also counts.
Speaker:And doing things for society also counts as much as an impact factor and moving
Speaker:away from that impact factor as to not permit too much scientific fraud as well.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:So that's my understanding of it.
Speaker:And also the.
Speaker:It's very good at acknowledging the collegiality aspect and the fact that
Speaker:there, It's not the lone researcher, but there are multiple roles that
Speaker:contribute to research outputs.
Speaker:Now obviously now I work for the Rectorate of a University,
Speaker:I also can't go around and say you working at the university is shit or working in
Speaker:academia is shit, because first of all, I don't believe working at the University of
Speaker:Graz is shit because I enjoy quite a lot.
Speaker:I know a lot of people who like it a lot, but it wouldn't be, good, neither
Speaker:for my mission nor for my employer if I told everyone how harmful academia is.
Speaker:Because I want the people to thrive in academia and I
Speaker:want them to change academia.
Speaker:And I, all of these, for example, female mathematicians at our department, despite
Speaker:the fact that they are all basically competing with each other, you never
Speaker:notice that because they just are so supportive, mentoring each other,
Speaker:mentoring people in other countries, putting up, lunch, clubs, and, everything.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:So these are actually the people who are going in the
Speaker:university committees and so on.
Speaker:So they make it an a livable experience.
Speaker:but there is a tension between speaking for an employer, wanting your employer
Speaker:to recruit great people who also benefit the collegial aspect of our
Speaker:togetherness here at the university.
Speaker:And to be seen by people as just saying, everything is
Speaker:great and we're so collegial.
Speaker:And I think I, as an anthropologist, I know, everything is power relations
Speaker:and everything is, structure, shapes how we interact and And there's
Speaker:many bad things going on in short.
Speaker:But I also believe we have agency to shape it, and I want people
Speaker:to get together to, to, yeah.
Speaker:So what do you think, you talked about solutions focus, like there
Speaker:are structural issues and I think that one of the things about the
Speaker:anthropology background is sitting in the middle of all that messy complexity.
Speaker:So the structural issues and you talked about solutions focused and the agency.
Speaker:So what do you think, that either you promote through your office or that you
Speaker:do, in your work, what are the key areas of agency that you think make a difference
Speaker:or maybe some examples of initiatives?
Speaker:I've, had to accept that I have limited scope in my work, so I also have
Speaker:to rely on the people I work with.
Speaker:So the postdocs themselves to do things for themselves.
Speaker:And I can't change, many of the structures which they would want to change.
Speaker:For example, if
Speaker:things that postdocs said in 20 20, 20 21 that they want changed, still
Speaker:haven't changed because some of them are at the faculty level, for example,
Speaker:where I have limited influence.
Speaker:A very wise professor who's now a professor once told me, you can also rely
Speaker:on the people to fight for themselves.
Speaker:And that helped me a lot.
Speaker:She's one of the creators of the network against power abuse in academia.
Speaker:So she has had the experience from a PhD candidate onwards that she was
Speaker:able to actually establish structures that make academia better place.
Speaker:So she, found PhD Net at Max Planck, and then she found that this network
Speaker:against power abuse and she now has about a hundred ERC grants.
Speaker:I'm, over exaggerating.
Speaker:anyway, she is brilliant.
Speaker:And that after three years of the postdoc office where I saw, people,
Speaker:the university still, people still come to me with the same complaints.
Speaker:There's not much transparency.
Speaker:Information isn't being passed down to me.
Speaker:I'm actually being prohibited from going into some committees.
Speaker:I don't actually know how things work.
Speaker:Yeah, it was a good conversation with her to know.
Speaker:That's not talking about any initiatives right now.
Speaker:That's just talking about how I survive in my job, in which people, yeah
Speaker:come to me with problems every day.
Speaker:The problems that not necessarily stem from our university either,
Speaker:that they had in their last university, and it challenges them
Speaker:still, in their daily work here.
Speaker:So I try to give competent advice.
Speaker:For example, if you have, experienced power abuse in a former job, I can now
Speaker:tell you five people who you can talk to.
Speaker:So that's how I work.
Speaker:by being accessible for all the bad things that can happen to you.
Speaker:And then knowing how, who to connect you with and knowing, having insider
Speaker:knowledge basically into many different things, many different parts of the
Speaker:researcher experience and then relying on people to do it themselves basically.
Speaker:And asking them to check back in with me and report, but go out
Speaker:and seek the solutions themselves.
Speaker:And we have also, we have a conflict resolution contact point.
Speaker:So the university has many structures you can send people to.
Speaker:There also know many structures outside the university.
Speaker:That's now for conflict, but, The researcher experience
Speaker:is much more than conflicts.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I try to make myself as knowledgeable in all the things like publishing or
Speaker:career development or anything else.
Speaker:And in terms of, programs, we used to run a peer mentoring program.
Speaker:Now we have a workshop where you learn how to give collegial advice
Speaker:and support in a structured manner.
Speaker:We have a fiasco fest, which celebrates failure and creates
Speaker:(lovely) this community.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's really funny that a psychology professor thought it up and came to me
Speaker:when we started the Postoc office and then we made the concept, the two of us.
Speaker:And it's, people sharing their tops and flops and looking at the
Speaker:top and flop CVs that they have.
Speaker:And then, just drinking a little bit afterwards, as far as they're comfortable
Speaker:and then burning all of their fiascos.
Speaker:That's the short of it, but she gives obviously competent psychological
Speaker:advice on how to prepare yourself for the inevitable setbacks that
Speaker:will be part of any career basically.
Speaker:And that serves the purpose of also getting people together and talking
Speaker:in a way that they don't usually talk.
Speaker:Or maybe they don't have so many, areas in their own workplace where they, can
Speaker:open up and can see, oh, okay, someone else is having exactly the same issues.
Speaker:And that also happens at the writing retreat.
Speaker:We have a yearly retreat for three days where, which includes,
Speaker:time in the sauna if you want.
Speaker:So someone told me once, that's the first experience of academic sisterhood
Speaker:that they, they had in the sauna at the writing retreat with other researchers
Speaker:that they've never seen before.
Speaker:And but the writing retreat is actually like structured writing time with
Speaker:a writing facilitator where you get three meals a day and your schedule
Speaker:is being, taken care of for you.
Speaker:And she just tells you when to write and she helps you with
Speaker:any, issues that come, across.
Speaker:And she makes you go out to exercise or to take a walk and, Afterwards, it's
Speaker:just, holidaying in this resort basically.
Speaker:And these are all things that serve to form the community and people
Speaker:will then get in WhatsApp groups together or just see each other again
Speaker:and have seen each other previously.
Speaker:And so we work a lot with that researcher wellbeing, through
Speaker:researcher wellbeing, and community, having paperwork on their careers.
Speaker:So I don't go around and hit them on the head with the career
Speaker:board or the career planning.
Speaker:I just try to create spaces that are first educational for them or hit any
Speaker:spot that they like needing to finish a paper or needing to know how to perform
Speaker:in the interview for a professorship, but also do it with nice people.
Speaker:And that's the approach basically.
Speaker:I think I said three main popular.
Speaker:Popular programs.
Speaker:Can I dig in on a couple of those?
Speaker:I love the Fiasco Fest.
Speaker:That's brilliant.
Speaker:And the writing retreat.
Speaker:You said at the beginning you, you have a program where you talk to
Speaker:people about, you're not doing the peer mentoring anymore, but you're
Speaker:Training people in how to do the collegial advice.
Speaker:Could you say a little bit more about that?
Speaker:yes, we, what could be a tip or a trick for that?
Speaker:Ah, okay.
Speaker:the genesis of that is that for three years we had peer groups, so
Speaker:they spent a year with each other.
Speaker:And that's also our approach.
Speaker:We believe the community already has knowledge and resources, and they
Speaker:just need to be brought together.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:they don't necessarily need to be taught anything.
Speaker:they just need to connect with each other to share that.
Speaker:And there is a model that's called Kollegiale Fallberatung.
Speaker:In French Canadian.
Speaker:Collegial development collegial and in English action items I think or something.
Speaker:Action learning sets.
Speaker:Learning.
Speaker:Yes, exactly.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So it's all basically the same concept.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And at the start of each peer group, they were taught this,
Speaker:method by a trainer, practically.
Speaker:And then that's what they would do in their sessions.
Speaker:And now these peer groups.
Speaker:So we have 350 postdocs and eight or so always applied for this.
Speaker:And everyone from the other postdoc offices around the world always
Speaker:said, wow, that's impressive.
Speaker:No one applied.
Speaker:Wouldn't apply for something like this at our university.
Speaker:But now it seems to be something we need to wait for another two years
Speaker:until we have the interest again.
Speaker:So we had only four people apply this year.
Speaker:So what we offer now, is just methods training.
Speaker:how to sit together, raise an issue, and then, in a specific agenda,
Speaker:go through the issues where the group develop solutions for you.
Speaker:You are not allowed to say anything, and then you, allowed to react to
Speaker:what they said, and then you could together maybe map out the plan for
Speaker:you to actually take action and then.
Speaker:A week later, a month later, two months later, you meet the group again, and then
Speaker:you, we can report how that issue went.
Speaker:And we also use this for supervisor training.
Speaker:So we have a group that's called Supervisor Network, and some of them
Speaker:were previous graduates of this peer mentoring and some are just, rather
Speaker:experienced university professors.
Speaker:And they got all together to, discuss critical situations
Speaker:from their supervisory practice.
Speaker:And I, saw in that, they presented it this year in April, that
Speaker:doing this for three years has influenced the university somehow.
Speaker:Nice.
Speaker:Towards more supportive supervisory practices or dealing with situations
Speaker:more, more constructively.
Speaker:Just people have caught on to this idea of you can do something with a peer group.
Speaker:it's, there is a platform where you can find these peers and there
Speaker:are tools and it's an acknowledged concept now in the method, in
Speaker:the professional form of getting together and improving our practice.
Speaker:Basically.
Speaker:And this is now a group made out of senior postdocs and established professors and,
Speaker:I hope with this new method training that also goes into all the faculties,
Speaker:or all other universities where the people might go to and they, yes, they
Speaker:have some topic be supervision, be it, I don't know, just career decisions
Speaker:and then they can say, there's actually structured methods and we could meet
Speaker:once a month or something like that.
Speaker:And, so yeah, I think that has potential.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it's, that's obviously was not me.
Speaker:I wasn't the first person who thought of the,
Speaker:i'm actually an action learning set facilitator, trained.
Speaker:Oh.
Speaker:And it's brilliant to hear how the transition from the more structured, you
Speaker:meet, depending on what model you use, six sessions and there's the commitment.
Speaker:And this sounds like it's taking the principles and working with the reality
Speaker:of people being busy and letting them interpret the principles to meet when
Speaker:they want and as often as they want.
Speaker:That's brilliant.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Maybe can you say it briefly about the action learning sets, because
Speaker:it's probably sounding better when you, when it comes from you.
Speaker:It is a peer mentoring process, isn't it?
Speaker:And often the way it's more traditionally set up, and I always
Speaker:had the question in my mind about how well it works in academia to get
Speaker:the commitment for people to turn up.
Speaker:But normally you have five or six people, you have a facilitator who will role
Speaker:model how to structure a conversation.
Speaker:The people agree to get together in regular period, could be
Speaker:once a month or whatever, maybe for about five or six meetings.
Speaker:At the beginning, usually everyone goes around and just says what they might
Speaker:talk about, what could be an issue.
Speaker:And then the group decides which one they focus on.
Speaker:And then exactly the process that you talked about.
Speaker:Although what I was taught was more about instead of the group
Speaker:coming up with solutions, the group coming up with the questions to
Speaker:help the person thinks through.
Speaker:And then at the end they can bring in some ideas or solutions themselves.
Speaker:So anyway,
Speaker:Yeah, that was what I also understood in Yeah.
Speaker:Also that element where you are not allowed to say anything.
Speaker:Is that also in your action learning sets?
Speaker:Where the person who brings the problem, they are responding to the questions and
Speaker:they're not listening to other people just talking about their own problems.
Speaker:There's a round where you say, does anyone want to bring a case for today?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Basically, yeah.
Speaker:And then you bring the case and then people can ask many questions just if
Speaker:they haven't understood and then they discuss without you involving yourself.
Speaker:So in that, the way that I have learned it, not the actual learning
Speaker:set, but the colleague, yeah.
Speaker:You sit there for about 10 minutes, 15 minutes listening to the
Speaker:people expound on what you do.
Speaker:And also, Geraldine we did that, in our ethno psychoanalysis supervisory
Speaker:group that we had for field work, which was the Balint model.
Speaker:Do you know the Balint model from psychotherapy?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:I thinks psychotherapists get together, to reflect on critical cases from
Speaker:their work in the Balint group model.
Speaker:We did that when I was a PhD candidate or when I did field work still.
Speaker:We had a group with a supervisor who was psychoanalytically trained
Speaker:and also an anthropologist, and someone said, I had this interview.
Speaker:I'm now going to tell you about it.
Speaker:Or, I had this situation in my field work, and then the people are discussing it.
Speaker:On the basis of emotions that this brought up.
Speaker:So it was a way to make visible relationships in field work through
Speaker:the emotions of other people who have just heard what you were talking.
Speaker:And you could then see something happening in this group, that you
Speaker:might have realized was present as a topic in your field work or was a
Speaker:relationship issue in your field work.
Speaker:And, this is what I did when I was a researcher and it's, not dissimilar
Speaker:say to what the peer groups are doing, but yeah, we have a facilitator come in
Speaker:who does this, training in the methods.
Speaker:I enjoy that element where other people are talking about your
Speaker:problem and you can lean back.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:See, ah, that's interesting.
Speaker:Hadn't thought about that angle.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The other thing that I'd love to hear more about, you talked about the researchers'
Speaker:wellbeing and, community building and that was a point you brought up at the
Speaker:end and some education around that.
Speaker:So what are some of the key planks of that one?
Speaker:Oh, that's just, that was just to say that I, don't say we are a career center.
Speaker:We're, we are a center that strives to create, good environments for researchers
Speaker:to feel well at work, basically.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So the mission isn't foremost to develop your career.
Speaker:The mission is to have a good working environment and feel well in yourself.
Speaker:And from that then, stems everything else basically.
Speaker:The concept would be take care of yourself first, and, look at your
Speaker:resources, have a focus on what feeds you, what, nurtures you.
Speaker:Yesterday I heard someone saying, Genuss.
Speaker:What's the word in English?
Speaker:Joy?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But more you know, yeah.
Speaker:this savor.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Savoring.
Speaker:Savoring.
Speaker:And, that, that's my approach when I get together with people in coaching.
Speaker:So that's my approach.
Speaker:We always have food for people, and in fact, people who live our
Speaker:university say to me, thanks, Johanna, for all the free food.
Speaker:And, but we never do an event that has not any benefit for your career.
Speaker:So everything is informational and everything is networking
Speaker:and everything is, actually very important information for you.
Speaker:But, it's around eating.
Speaker:It's around being in nature.
Speaker:It's around, Asking yourself, how long hours can I work or what, do I
Speaker:do to recharge and, where are other people who can help me recharge?
Speaker:And, what's my community and what are all the supportive environments I can map
Speaker:out and how can I put them into place?
Speaker:And how can I defend those boundaries when once I have identified what
Speaker:feeds me, how can I maintain that and do I have to, and then does it
Speaker:become too stressful to maintain it?
Speaker:And then can I just let it go?
Speaker:Or yeah, what can I let go of that stresses me.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:Nice.
Speaker:So just in wrapping, what feeds you?
Speaker:I like to go to the sauna.
Speaker:That's my, actually my main hobby in my life.
Speaker:But what also feeds me is having, this very stable job where I have lots
Speaker:of, space for creativity and lots of agency, and we have lovely leadership,
Speaker:which is lets us do what we want because they always see it's good.
Speaker:And the colleagues are really funny.
Speaker:And I used to be often very alone because I was the only PhD at my
Speaker:department then I was the only postdoc.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So all these peer groups I made were also because I'm lonely and now
Speaker:there's people who are very aligned with what I do and from whom I could
Speaker:learn a lot because they were already there for a long time when I came.
Speaker:And they are also really funny.
Speaker:And so that, that feeds me, going to work, being able to set my own agenda
Speaker:and being together with people who are yeah, just, nice and competent and,
Speaker:and like taking obviously evenings, weekends sauna time, holidays, eating.
Speaker:Oh, that sounds brilliant.
Speaker:That sounds brilliant.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Is there anything that you want to say that you wanted
Speaker:to say that we haven't said?
Speaker:No, I made a few notes of talking points.
Speaker:maybe just as an explainer of why I didn't know how academia works is
Speaker:because I didn't know anyone who worked in academia and I still have very
Speaker:little friends who work in academia.
Speaker:And my family are in the Austrian railways or in the Austrian
Speaker:steel works historically.
Speaker:they were obviously liked public infrastructure but
Speaker:weren't academically inclined.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I'm also conscious of that.
Speaker:I have to explain things now because not everyone has the same background and.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:I'm also, yeah.
Speaker:Sometimes puzzling how I am now despite the fact that I, suffered because I
Speaker:didn't know the rules, I can now translate these rules, make them more transparent.
Speaker:But I'm still in an environment that has many hierarchies because
Speaker:yeah, I'm now support staff.
Speaker:And we like to say we feed the mission of research and not only researchers as
Speaker:people, but often it's also noticeable that there are hierarchies and sometimes,
Speaker:the postdocs I work with are all brilliant and really appreciative as other PhD
Speaker:candidates and many professors as well.
Speaker:But sometimes you can notice, these hierarchies a little bit.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:University leadership, not much.
Speaker:They don't seem to have any sort of, a need to, claim their status.
Speaker:They're very,
Speaker:They already firmly stand in it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:As well.
Speaker:That wasn't a very good ending word.
Speaker:But just to say, not everything is happy all the time.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But that we do have a lot of agency.
Speaker:You've pointed to the Yeah.
Speaker:The multiple ways that we do have agency.
Speaker:The ways that we can contribute to one another by not assuming people
Speaker:know, by explaining, by reaching out, by saying we appreciate people.
Speaker:And, also the power of community.
Speaker:So much of what you've talked about is connecting people and, the wisdom and
Speaker:the expertise we all have and share whether it's of our fiascos, of our flops
Speaker:and tops or whatever, like we, yeah.
Speaker:And on your own terms, on your own terms, as much as you can,
Speaker:on your own terms.
Speaker:That's a great, finish.
Speaker:So thank you so much.
Speaker:This has just been wonderful Johanna.
Speaker:I really appreciate your time.
Speaker:Thanks Geraldine.
Speaker:Yes, that super that you attentively listen to me for an hour and gave
Speaker:me the space to talk about myself.
Speaker:That's also feeding me.
Speaker:Oh, that's good.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:You can find the summary notes, a transcript and related links for this
Speaker:podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.
Speaker:You can also subscribe to Changing Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify.
Speaker:And I'm really hoping that we can widen the conversation about how
Speaker:we can do academia differently.
Speaker:And you can contribute to this by rating the podcast and also giving feedback.
Speaker:And if something connected with you, please consider sharing this
Speaker:podcast with your colleagues.
Speaker:Together we can make change happen.
