Tina Persson on career pivots, recruitment and coaching for career security (CAL124, S6 E18)
Tina Persson shares her journey from chemistry and nearly 20 years in academia, to recruiting and then career coaching. Tina discusses the challenges she faced in academia, including struggles with energy-draining tasks and political landscapes, and how she pivoted to a career in recruitment and coaching. She emphasizes the importance of understanding natural talents, emotional intelligence, and honest communication in career development. The conversation covers valuable tips for professors on recruiting and supporting early-career researchers, the impact of AI on career skills, and the cultural differences in career transitions. Tina also highlights the significance of lifelong learning and being open to unseen opportunities, offering practical advice for academics, those seeking an academic position, and those considering a career pivot.
Overview:
00:29 Episode Introduction
03:02 Introducing Tina and her Academic Journey
10:18 Transition to Industry
12:24 Becoming a PhD Recruiter
15:25 Coaching and Career Development
25:24 Recruitment Tips for Professors
36:00 Startup Mentality in Academia
38:43 Evaluating Candidates Beyond Technical Skills
40:35 Innovative Interview Techniques
43:09 Filtering Candidates Efficiently
50:57 Cultural Differences in Recruitment
52:50 The Role of AI in Recruitment
54:25 Human-Centric Skills in Academia
01:00:13 Building a Supportive Academic Culture
01:03:23 The Importance of Career Pivoting
01:05:52 Conclusion and Contact Information
Related links
Related to Tina:
About Tina and her LinkedIn profile and Passage2Pro
PhD Career Stories Podcast and upcoming book
People: Sarah Blackford , Fritz Eckstein
Holland’s Theory of Career Choice
Transcript
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
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:I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is
a podcast series where academics and
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:others share their stories, provide
ideas, and provoke discussions about what
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:we can do individually and collectively
to change academic life for the better.
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:When I run workshops with, young
professors, even experienced
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:professors, one of the questions
that often comes up is, how do you
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:know how to recruit someone good?
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:And that was my motivation for wanting
to talk with Tina Perrson because she's
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:brings together unique experience in
this regard and the conversation ends
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:up covering this and so much more.
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:So i'm really happy to share this
conversation with Tina Perrson.
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:Tina's interesting because she worked
in academia for nearly 20 years working
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:in chemistry, and then she moved on
to work in a recruitment company and
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:created a niche for herself there
and recruiting post PhD people.
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:And now she's working as an academic
career coach, where she brings
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:together all that she's learned
from her different backgrounds
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:in both academia and recruitment.
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:She shares really honestly, about
her own career journey and the
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:challenges she faced in academia
that led her to pivot to a career in
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:recruitment, and then the coaching.
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:And then where she talks more about
career pivots and recruitment more
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:generally, I love the way she invites
us to not just focus on job security
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:per se, but to take a bigger lens and
think instead about career security and
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:how we can set ourselves up for that
and how we as leaders can support others
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:in their longer career trajectories.
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:So there's lots of tips for people
from all sides of the equation here.
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:Whether you are applying for a PhD
or postdoc position, or whether
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:you are the professor on the other
end who's doing the recruitment.
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:There are lots of tips that she
offers for the recruitment process.
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:And there's also lots of good advice
for people who might be thinking
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:of pivoting out of academia.
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:Along the way, we also touch on
issues like the importance of
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:understanding your natural talents,
of emotional intelligence, of being
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:really honest in how we communicate
the realities of academic career
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:paths and career development, on
the role of AI in the recruitment
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:process and cultural differences.
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:As I said, there's lots there
for, for all sorts of people.
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:So I really hope you enjoy
this conversation with Tina.
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:Tina, thank you very much
for joining me today.
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:I was really excited to meet you and one
of the reasons why I thought it could
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:be really useful to talk was when we run
workshops with academics and early career
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:researchers, often the question that comes
up again and again and again is how do
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:you know how to employ the right people?
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:And given your background that
we're gonna hear about soon, I
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:just thought you'd be a wonderful
person to explore this issue with.
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:So would you like to
just introduce yourself?
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:Tina: Absolutely.
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:And first of all, thank you for
inviting me to your absolute lovely
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:pod that I got noticed on on LinkedIn.
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:Right.
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:You know, you got recognized.
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:So congratulations, uh, Geri.
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:Uh, yeah, my background.
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:My name is Tina Persson and I started
off my career as a young woman in
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:academia doing a PhD and with sort of
an aim of going abroad, doing a postoc.
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:And from there I, I just had one
career in mind and that was to stay
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:in academia to become a professor.
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:So it was sort of a lot
of step to go back home.
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:Uh, that is Sweden, Lund University.
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:And being in academia, uh, I
realized very shortly that.
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:It's not being a supervisor,
trying to build a group.
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:As a young woman with no support system
around, it's very, very difficult.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:So I started to doubt myself, but I
also found that I'm doing too many
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:things that doesn't give me energy.
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:So I decided to leave and that.
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:This time, that is 2005, 2006.
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:You know, time is runnings.
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:20 years ago it was very, very
uncommon that if you had come so
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:far, you were fighting to stay.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:But I just said no.
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:So I pivot to say, listen, so just your
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:Geri: disciplinary area
that you were working in?
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:Tina: My disciplinary area
was organic chemistry.
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:Geri: Yeah.
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:Tina: In the beginning.
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:But I transitioned to
molecule biology in RNA.
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:So at the Max Plank Institute
I worked within the RNA
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:field in the early nineties.
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:So that was really in the
beginning of RNA science.
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:Yes.
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:So in my lab we work with the CRISP
before crisp, but with catalytic RNA
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:ligation of RNA and some of the scientists
later on work with SI and MI RNA.
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:So I know if.
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:You know, just to share, because I know
you have many academic people here on
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:the podcast, I attended a conference
in San Francisco and I think that,
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:uh, right six to eight Nobel Prizes,
you know, that attended that virtual.
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:Wow.
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:They hadn't, some had got the Nobel
Prize, some of them were waiting to get
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:it, and one woman was Jennifer Dunna
and she was basically in her first or
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:second year as an assistant professor.
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:So I remember that very, very clearly.
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:So looking back, I realized I was sitting
in a red Ferrari, but I didn't know that.
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:So I thought, honestly, coming
back to Sweden with that sort of
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:portfolio, I would be extremely
attractive and easily get funding.
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:Um, but I couldn't be more wrong.
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:I couldn't be more wrong.
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:Mm, absolutely.
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:So.
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:Yeah,
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:Geri: you, and you said about you
felt like you weren't getting energy.
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:Can you unpack that a little bit more?
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:Tina: Oh, very good.
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:That dissecting it, I'm so
trying to just give a very short,
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:brief background about myself.
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:But when I started, you know, being
a PhD, being a postdoc, particularly
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:postdoc time, it was tough.
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:It was, you know, hard competition
in the lab, but it was, it fitted me.
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:I was focused on doing science.
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:I could go to conferences.
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:I had great discussions, uh, in the lab
that I was to discuss scientific problems.
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:So sort of a future of, you
know, being part of something
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:very big and important and.
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:I think now looking back, I used
my sort of openness, innovation,
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:curiosity, writing, you know,
scientific articles, but I didn't have
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:to write them for, for perfection.
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:I was much more hands on in the lab.
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:I was there sort of figuring out new ways.
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:So actually getting a, an article, so
coming back and I was a supervisor,
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:suddenly I was fully responsible for
pulling in the funding, which means
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:you're sitting writing fund applications.
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:So I was stuck applying for
funding and writing articles.
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:And it sounds maybe very strange, but I
don't like to write articles, you know?
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:So for me it's like, then it's over.
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:So honestly, you can't be a professor
to that if you're not really, you know,
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:like to write, conceptualizing and
writing and it doesn't give me energy.
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:And that was one thing.
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:The other one was the political system.
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:Geri: Hmm.
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:Tina: I realized very quickly that, you
know, they said you have to publish.
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:At least they said that to me
as a woman, you have to publish.
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:You have to publish work harder.
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:But I said, it's no point because it's
you anyway, saying I have to work harder.
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:They give me the funding, so why can't
you just tell me if I'm good enough or
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:if you are interested in investing in me?
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:But I never got that answer.
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:So I looked around myself, Geri,
and said, okay, how many women
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:at this university has really
succeeded to go where I see myself?
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:Geri: Mm.
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:Tina: And at that time, it wasn't many.
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:And all of them were much
more founded with mentors.
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:At the university than I was.
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:And honestly, many of
them never did a postdoc.
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:They stayed at the university,
maybe did one visiting year
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:and then come back to the lab.
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:I stayed six years at the Max
Planck and that was too many
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:years to come back 'cause I was
disconnected with the local ecosystem.
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:Yeah.
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:So this is course something I
use in my coaching, how to start
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:strategically a research career.
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:Don't do it the way I did it.
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:It doesn't work.
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:You know, it'll be very, very hard
even though there are many ways to
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:Rome, but there are ways that you
can make it smoother and easier.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:And this is some of my executive
coaching I do today with professors,
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:particularly young professors.
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:So that was my natural talents, I call it.
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:It didn't fit.
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:And the more I worked in academia,
the more sort of de-energized I got.
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:And when you're de-energized, you
are not a very good supervisor.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:So I wasn't very good in leading my group,
but I was young, I was 35 years old.
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:So what can we expect from such
a young person to be able to
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:lead a group with no support?
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:It's too much.
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:Yeah.
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:Geri: So it sounds like a very brave
decision, especially in:
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:actually say, no, this isn't for me.
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:Tina: No, it's not for me, but
for me, maybe it was easy because
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:I'm not from an academic family.
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:So I come from a family with no
academic track record and they're
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:more involved in sales and business.
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:So.
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:I also think, looking
back, I am a bit like this.
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:When thing doesn't work out, I
say, why not try something else?
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:Mm-hmm.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:That's maybe why I was a good scientist.
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:You know, I'm very open-minded and
curious, so why not test something else?
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:Why not go in a completely
different direction trying to
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:connect the dots differently?
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:So I use a lot of intuition, so my
feeling, if I put it up, my stomach
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:feeling when I changed was in order
for me, because it was not easy
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:to call around and look for a job
because everyone expected you to stay.
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:It was, and I want to
change and pivot completely.
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:Okay.
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:So I, I get into a completely different
network where I learn sales and
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:marketing because that is a skill,
whatever you do in the future.
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:It's gonna be very good to have.
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:Geri: Mm.
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:Tina: At the same time I learned
that I was more interested
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:in people maybe in science.
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:Yeah.
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:Again, as a woman, I was interested
in people, something I really didn't
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:know at the time being, but I know
that today and the reason I like to
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:go to Germany was that apart from
doing great science, I was in Germany.
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:I learned a language, I met new people,
so that was also, you know, my curiosity
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:about the new culture and all of that,
that was important in Germany, which
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:of course didn't get back when I came
to Sweden because here people were
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:not interested in what I've done in
Germany had no interest whatsoever.
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:For me, it was how can't you
be interested in what happened
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:with me for the six years?
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:But I learned that, so I went into sales
and marketing in the recruitment business
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:where I could combine people interest.
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:Sales and marketing, but I
did something smart here.
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:When I got that recruitment job,
I said, I'm going to be the first
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:PhD recruiter, so I understand PhDs
that wants to do what I have done.
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:You know, they also find it very,
very hard to get a job, but I will
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:understand the background and I can
explain it and express it for companies.
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:So that was my niche and that was the
only reason I got the job, because
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:this company could see that potential.
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:Geri: And so you came up with that
as a niche in going and talking to
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:the company that gave you the job?
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:Mm-hmm.
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:That's really interesting.
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:That's a really great insight.
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:At the intersection of,
you know, like it Yeah.
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:You talked about doing
a complete pivot away.
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:Yeah.
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:But also drawing across some threads.
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:Tina: That's Tina Persson.
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:This is me.
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:I've done it so many times.
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:I did it in science.
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:But this is also I think, a mindset.
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:I have trained myself.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:I always tell nowadays to my
clients, you must learn to
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:see the unseen opportunities.
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:We talk about hidden jobs, that one
thing, but unseen is really that
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:you connect dots by accumulating
information, connecting new information,
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:and draw some conclusions so you can
see things happening in the future.
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:That means, what I call it,
you can see around corners.
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:So when an opportunity come, you take
it because you already know that might
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:that that might be the best option.
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:The moment.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:And that have happened so many
times in my life, and this is that.
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:I tend to say I'm somehow a little bit
ahead of my time, which is always for me,
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:like I'm always working against the wind.
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:Geri: Mm-hmm.
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:Tina: You know, because when I was
a first PhD career coach or coach or
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:recruiter, that the environment didn't
understand why I took that move.
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:But after me, there are many PhD
recruiters and one of my dear friends,
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:I spoke with her today, Anna, she was
the second in Sweden and she lives in
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:Stockholm and she's still a recruiter.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:And I inspired her.
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:So, so you know, being the first
is hard by that, there will
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:always be people that follow.
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:Geri: Mm.
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:Tina: Yeah.
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:And that's how it's been with me.
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:Yeah.
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:I must admit.
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:Yeah.
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:Geri: And it's not just the unseen
opportunities, but it's the way in
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:which you co-create the opportunity,
in both seeing the potential, the
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:unseen, I guess, and also making
it something that can be seen.
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:Tina: That can be seen.
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:Yeah.
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:And that is what I call
your show by doing.
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:And for that, I need
to take the first step.
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:So being a PhD recruiter, then I learned
not only sales and marketing, but I
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:also found another gap That is the
reason that I'm sitting here with you.
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:And that is that I had this very
good intention to help and support
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:PhDs, postdoc, even professors
and lecturers to transition.
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:And I learned they can't sell themself.
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:They can't extract their competence.
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:Geri: From academia, from
academia into industry context.
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:Tina: Exactly.
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:They talk, but no one understands and
see the value ? And I say, you know,
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:it's great to tell your life story in
academia and all your science, just that
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:you need to rephrase it so the company
can see the value, what you offer.
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:And that is something I had naturally,
it was easier for me somehow to adapt
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:to that, where I could see many of the,
one I tried to recruit to companies
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:and in fact, Geri, some companies
called me back and gave me feedback.
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:Tina don't send these people
and they're really weird.
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:And I said, no, they're not.
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:It's just a different language.
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:So, so I said, you know, I was
fighting there, but I learned that.
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:I learned, okay, I can't sell them.
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:So it needs, they need another support.
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:I can't give them as a recruiter.
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:Uh, and that is slowly then
you can hear moving over to.
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:Me doing, oh, you know, I had
three years in between starting
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:my company where I said, okay, I
think I need to be a career coach.
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:I need to be a coach.
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:Mm.
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:Because that's the only way I, I
really can help this clientele,
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:you know, to figure out what
they want to do in the life.
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:Yeah.
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:Beyond the academic context.
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:And then I figure out I can do it inside.
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:So that is another transition based
on information that I gathered eight
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:years as a recruiter and consultant
manager, because I stayed, I stayed
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:eight years in the corporate world.
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:Geri: And how long have you been
then working as the career coach?
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:Um, and with your own company?
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:Tina: That's another eight years.
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:Another eight years.
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:Another eight years something.
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:Yeah.
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:Geri: So I, I do wanna get to actually,
you know, for the professor sitting there
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:employing people and picking good people.
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:But if you are working with some of
your PhDs who want to move into a
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:different sector out of academia.
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:Tina: Mm-hmm.
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:Geri: How do you talk to
them about communicating so
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:that they can connect Yeah.
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:To a non-academic audience, to
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:Tina: a non non-academic audience.
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:That's a process that I call natural
talents that I identify myself.
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:It's based on, it's
actually Sarah Blackford.
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:Um, she used Holland's theory for a very
analog instrument that many years now.
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:And then I know her and I got
it and I saw, oh, that's cool.
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:And then AI came Chat GPT.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:Tina: And then I realized,
Hmm, wait a minute.
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:It's not about, we talk a
lot in academia about values.
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:They, they get too much of the value.
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:They get too much about
strength and weaknesses.
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:You don't need to be perfect
on those things because you
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:can develop that with time.
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:But to sell yourself, if I put it in
that terminology so people understand
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:and see the value that lies in
that, you know where you're going.
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:So if you take a look on your
natural talents, that's going
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:back to what I felt in academia.
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:I feel I don't get energy from my job.
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:That is, if you use Holland's theory,
which is based on, you know, you can
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:take, if you have a practical approach,
hands-on approach, you're being
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:maybe more investigative, a bit more
enterprising, a bit more supportive.
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:Now a bit more, let's say creative
jobs or administrative job.
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:You have sort of a mixture there.
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:By knowing, looking back on what
gave you energy doing in the past.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:You can write a simple diary.
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:I can help my clients to translate
that to actually a job field.
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:Nice.
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:Uh, and this is very easy to do that.
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:And by using Chat GPT, it's just amazing
because from that very positive thinking,
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:not looking at what I don't like, you
focus 100% of what gives you energy.
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:You can learn to communicate even
though you don't know the job.
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:You can say, do you know what?
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:I'm in academia, you know,
industry much better than I do.
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:I can tell you what gives me energy
doing and based on that might be
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:you can support me where I fit in.
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:Yes.
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:Tina: And people love to help you there.
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:Because you not look for a job, but you
still look for a job in an indirect way.
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:And this is how I help
my client to start with.
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:And from there, we can then build
both LinkedIn profiles, we can take
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:it to, uh, a resume, a LinkedIn
profile, interviews and et cetera,
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:et cetera, building confidence.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:Tina: And this is a positive way
for a critical mindset, PhD postdoc,
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:to move into a positive mindset.
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:Talking Yes.
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:Positively about, yes.
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:Yeah.
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:Geri: So when they're at their
best, you know, like when they're
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:really energized by their work,
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:Tina: where they thrive,
as I say, you are thriving.
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:And this is also what professors
listening here, because we become.
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:To, to the tips here, but this is
also how they should build the group.
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:They need a mixture of people in
the team thriving differently.
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:Yeah.
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:Yes.
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:So you have some sort of diversity
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:Geri: Yes.
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:Tina: In personalities, but not only in
personalities, in their natural talents.
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:Yes.
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:Which I call drives the motivation.
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:Yes.
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:And this is a big mistake.
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:They get too many of the same kind.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:Geri: So, you know, you said when
you had your group and you didn't
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:like writing and the sort of the,
the articles and it sounds like the
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:trying to chase the grants and funding.
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:Yeah.
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:Looking back with what you know
now, do you see a way that you
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:may have been able to have used
this sort of natural talents lens?
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:Tina: Yeah, absolutely.
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:In building a
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:Geri: team where you
collectively covered those bases.
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:Tina: Yeah, and I was
not that wrong at it.
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:It was just a coincidence
here that unfortunately,
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:the political landscape
wasn't very healthy.
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:It was very toxic environment at the time.
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:Um.
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:When I started, I very quickly had
sort of a smaller group and I knew my
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:strength, uh, in many ways indirectly.
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:I, I'm, you know, I'm the one that
get all the new ideas, connect things.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:Then there was a woman, Sophia, her
name was, she was extremely good
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:in writing and structure things.
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:So we started to collaborate
and that worked amazingly.
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:Mm.
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:Tina: One day it stopped and I have sort
of a feeling that was some political power
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:in the house disconnecting us to women.
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:Mm.
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:'cause we were very successful.
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:So if you Google Tina Persson and Sophia,
you will find many articles what we did.
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:Mm.
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:And
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:Tina: when I look back on
it, I think, wow, we did that
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:in that short time period.
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:Really groundbreaking.
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:Yeah.
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:Uh, but you know, this is again, that
we were strong together, but the system
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:in academia is don't work together.
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:You should promote yourself.
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:Yeah.
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:And, and this is so degenerating because
that also creates researchers like PhDs
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:and postdocs, young research being too
independent, thinking about themself so
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:they don't get this sort of team ability,
you know, work collaborative in a team.
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:Yeah.
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:Which is the only thing
companies look at, because if
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:you can't be in a team, you know?
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:Yes.
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:Geri: And it's also, I mean,
as you indicated working with
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:Sophie, it's not just additive.
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:You bring your two pieces of what you are
good at, and she brings her two pieces.
427
:There's something more that happens.
428
:There's a, there's a synergy and
an extra energy boost, you know,
429
:with the collective that, um,
430
:Tina: collective comes from that.
431
:So, I could put it this way, if anyone
listening here and whether you are sitting
432
:inside academia trying to, you know, fight
yourself through the academic context or.
433
:You in industry and you feel that
you're stuck and you're frustrated.
434
:It might be that you haven't sort of
grounded yourself in the ecosystem.
435
:Uh, and for that is what
we call in industry.
436
:You need to have a strong ability
in emotional intelligence, which
437
:means that building relationships,
motivating people, social skills.
438
:Yeah, yeah.
439
:And ability to recruit the right
people, and communicate in a right way.
440
:Yeah.
441
:Many people make their manager their
enemy, and I said, it's not very smart
442
:because you have to collaborate with your
manager, learn to collaborate with us.
443
:So, because no one's gonna
promote you if they don't see
444
:the value of working with you.
445
:Yeah.
446
:And that is both in and at the university.
447
:Yeah.
448
:Geri: And you want them to
promote you in line with what
449
:you're energized by as well.
450
:Yeah.
451
:So how do you communicate that?
452
:Tina: How do you communicate?
453
:Well, I can't sit here and do teaching.
454
:If you take that I'm not teaching.
455
:For me, I wasn't particularly interested,
but I can be on stage to sell things.
456
:It's two different things.
457
:So I should have had a completely
different job inside Academia, but I
458
:could have started to get, you know, I got
my Docent and from there, most likely I
459
:should have moved into more, more external
affairs, external or something like.
460
:Geri: That's, and that's the value
of, of, um, the earlier we can get a
461
:sense of what our natural talents are.
462
:Absolutely.
463
:The more we can think about what are the
different possibilities that will enable
464
:those talents to to to blossom, to grow.
465
:Yeah.
466
:Yeah.
467
:It's early.
468
:Independent of the title
of the role that you're in.
469
:Tina: It's so important.
470
:Uh, I have been prepared a
little bit for this podcast,
471
:so I wrote something down here.
472
:And that is that you should, when you are
a professor and, and you're recruiting
473
:people, you know, it is very important
that from the day you get a new PhD or
474
:new postdoc, that they start early on
or you start early on to support them
475
:in the career development, whether,
you know, and that's another point
476
:for the reason they have come to you.
477
:So that means that this is extremely
important in an environment where you have
478
:so much of temporary positions mm-hmm.
479
:That they get an early support so
you can build psychological safety.
480
:Mm-hmm.
481
:And psychological safety is there,
so it's, you can be open to discuss
482
:different career trajectory.
483
:Not only that, you should stay in academia
also, that it is okay to leave because it
484
:is, when you are open discussing this, you
will probably succeed to retain the ones
485
:you want because they feel more secure.
486
:Mm.
487
:Tina: Yeah.
488
:Because the more they know about their
options, the more secure they will
489
:feel and the better, more efficient
people will work in your group.
490
:Yeah.
491
:And I've been coaching Geri, so many
PhDs and postdocs that I would put it
492
:this way, it's absolutely impossible.
493
:They can't be efficient considering
how worried they are about the future.
494
:Yes.
495
:And how little
496
:Geri: Especially when we have so many
shorter term contracts so that, yeah.
497
:So I wanna pick up on this point
again about supporting, um, early
498
:careers in their ongoing career.
499
:You know, like your employment of them
as being part of that career journey
500
:for them and how you can support them
in the time that you have contact.
501
:But one of the questions that I get
asked all the time, and I don't have
502
:a great answer always, um, is how,
you know, people always struggle
503
:with recruiting the right people
or good people and you, so they're
504
:always looking for tips and tricks.
505
:So given your background, both
in the recruiting business and in
506
:supporting people in the coaching,
507
:mm.
508
:Tina: I would say,
509
:Geri: What would you
say to young professors?
510
:Yeah, young professors who are recruiting
PhD students or postdocs or whatever.
511
:Tina: Yep.
512
:It really depends where they
are in their academic career.
513
:If you have young professors, they
have funding, you know, limited
514
:funding, they need a really sharp
strategy, you know, a sharp strategy.
515
:Uh, and there when you grow,
you have more and more funding.
516
:You can be more strategic.
517
:Uh, and there is also room to
fail, if I put it that way.
518
:With recruitment.
519
:Yes.
520
:When you are a young researcher,
there is no room one PhD student
521
:that doesn't deliver a post.
522
:It could be the end or the beginning,
you know, of your career basically.
523
:So, so there you have to
be very, very cautious.
524
:But I have some certain tips.
525
:Uh, but before doing that, I'm gonna.
526
:Just frame some sort of quote that I
wrote down here for all professor, whether
527
:you are young or old, uh, or you are
established, not old, that's, that was
528
:translating Swedish to English that is
more established professor was aside.
529
:But that is, and I, first of all, and, and
I say this because I've been coaching many
530
:professor among some of the Karolinska
Institute and in Germany, Max Planck, that
531
:is that professors strive for permanent
jobs and, and they are afraid to tell
532
:their PhDs and post up the truth or the
reality because they want to be nice
533
:and they want to offer them security.
534
:And that's the wrong
start from the beginning.
535
:So I would like to put it like
this, uh, it's a quote I wrote
536
:before for this podcast here.
537
:It's not about offering job security,
it's about offering career security.
538
:Mm-hmm.
539
:Candidates will commit to your project
if they know you're serious about helping
540
:them grow and land well afterward.
541
:Geri: Mm-hmm.
542
:Tina: And this is where I tell,
and I'm gonna tell you what I
543
:tell postdocs and PhDs when they
say, Tina, I want to do postdoc.
544
:I want to start the PhD.
545
:What professor should I choose?
546
:So Geri, what advice do
you think I give them?
547
:Well, it's a very simple one.
548
:Today we have social
media, we have LinkedIn.
549
:They can find a lot of information there.
550
:Yep.
551
:So I say you should go to a group where
you can see the people that left the
552
:group, how they succeeded afterwards, what
did they do after the post, or how many
553
:professors have that professor generated?
554
:How many people in industry
has that professor generated?
555
:So if you take my postdoc dad,
Fritz Eckstein at the Max Planck,
556
:I checked his list and they all in
industry, apart from some, they were
557
:extremely successful in academia.
558
:So that probably was a good chance that.
559
:I would succeed as well.
560
:So when we are in these times where
you have mental health issues,
561
:you can Google these information.
562
:Geri: Mm.
563
:Tina: You can find this information
and LinkedIn and ResearchGate
564
:or other networks, you can
actually check your professor.
565
:You, you look, look, look.
566
:Watch them up.
567
:Yeah.
568
:And when I tell that to professors,
is this the tip you give?
569
:Yes.
570
:Wow.
571
:It's not good.
572
:No.
573
:That's why you need to be
on social media to show off.
574
:This is my lab, this is my people.
575
:So they have all the names of
your laboratory people, and then
576
:they can contact them and ask
how is it to work in that group?
577
:This is how you show your brand.
578
:And it's not about policing all the time.
579
:It's to make them successful.
580
:Doesn't mean that you always agree
with them, but you know that you have
581
:this sort of, this is what companies
have learned and this is what they call
582
:talent development, talent attraction,
talent recruitment, and this is coming
583
:to academia as well as really important.
584
:So for that reason, I think
that is step number one.
585
:You have to think when you recruit
today, okay, I'm a young researcher.
586
:What do I actually need to
save my next three years?
587
:Because if you go to universities
in United States, you don't have
588
:more than three years, then you
must support your own salary.
589
:So you need to be extremely strategic.
590
:So I would put it that way.
591
:You have my tip one is adapt
to your funding reality.
592
:So if you have three years,
it's important that you are
593
:clear with, I have three years.
594
:And, we never know what
happened after that.
595
:Yeah.
596
:But bring in the people that are
curious, open-minded, and that can live
597
:with, that you have tight deadlines
and that you need publications.
598
:'cause that's what you're gonna tell them.
599
:I need publications, only publications
that are gonna take us further.
600
:And that you hire people that you
are guiding very strongly, that have
601
:the technical skills that you need.
602
:You know, maybe more hands on postdocs or
PhDs that produce your science basically.
603
:This sounds weird, but this is maybe
a tip you need to consider when
604
:you are a very young researcher.
605
:Geri: So the realities of the
funding and it's about the.
606
:What you need from the position.
607
:Tina: Yeah.
608
:Geri: Both in terms of
outputs and the inputs.
609
:In terms of skills.
610
:Yeah.
611
:Yeah.
612
:And, and in that, you know, if we
take your, um, supporting their, their
613
:career security, it's also talking to
them and the about how those also fit
614
:and support their trajectory as well.
615
:In that.
616
:Yeah.
617
:Tina: In this, in this
case, it's harder here.
618
:You have to be clear with that.
619
:If, if you come to my lab.
620
:This is what I need from you.
621
:You know, I, I understand that some
professors, it's very hard to say that I'm
622
:going to, it feels like I'm using them.
623
:Yeah.
624
:But you have to see it
from two perspectives here.
625
:You need them to produce your
science so you can publish that.
626
:That's honest.
627
:Yeah.
628
:And you give them an opportunity
to learn your science that
629
:they can take to the next step.
630
:Geri: Mm-hmm.
631
:Tina: Yeah.
632
:That you need to be honest with, I have
three years, so it's better that you come
633
:and we focus on what you can learn and
publications and then early on start to
634
:tell them that you know, now it's one
year, two years left, or one year left.
635
:What's your plan?
636
:Because you know, so you early on
start with them and telling them
637
:that you know, you need to look what
you are doing after, because this is
638
:also how you can use your network.
639
:Yeah.
640
:Maybe you can help them to another group.
641
:Or you start saying maybe, you know, you
should look around what industry offers.
642
:Geri: Mm-hmm.
643
:Tina: So this is to be
very open with that.
644
:You know, you have limited
resources to keep them.
645
:Unfortunately, some professors,
they're so afraid to lose or
646
:drop the best post docs and PhDs.
647
:So they are living on
the hope so very late.
648
:They know that I can't support you,
and then, you know, there's not
649
:enough time for the PhD and the
poster to look around and orient
650
:themself and explore other options.
651
:Mm-hmm.
652
:So stay honest in, in,
in, in this perspective.
653
:Geri: Yeah.
654
:That honesty is really critical.
655
:Tina: Mm.
656
:Geri: And it still leaves open the
space for that discussion within
657
:that honest framework about these
are the practical constraints, what
658
:I need, um, what you can deliver.
659
:And it, there's hopefully still scope
for that discussion that says, yeah.
660
:Where we have some room to make decisions
or to shape what actually gets done.
661
:Yeah, absolutely.
662
:What would work towards your
career trajectory, whether
663
:it's here or somewhere else?
664
:Tina: Honestly, this discussion is not
more strange than in a company, a startup.
665
:Mm-hmm.
666
:You know, if, if you go back, you know,
you, you're gonna start a little company.
667
:And they say, you know, I want
a permanent job in your, yeah.
668
:I can't offer that.
669
:I say, no, no.
670
:This is a startup and I, I can keep
it as long as we have money in the
671
:company and people are happy to join.
672
:Mm-hmm.
673
:And now I'm coming back to
what I said and framing.
674
:It's not about uh, job security,
it's about career, security.
675
:Career.
676
:Yeah.
677
:Because if you go to a lab and you
say, you know, God, you know, she
678
:doesn't have money or he doesn't have
money, this young professor, but I will
679
:learn fantastic and amazing skills.
680
:And if I use my time wisely,
collaborating, networking, I secure
681
:my career because I'm learning.
682
:So this is part of lifelong learning.
683
:So your expectation is on that level.
684
:This is where I tell people,
leaving academia, do you know what?
685
:You shouldn't look for job
security because that will stop
686
:you in the next five years.
687
:You should take a job where you may
be risk being unemployed again in two
688
:years, but you learn critical skills,
so you are building your career.
689
:Hmm.
690
:By learning new skills.
691
:Hmm.
692
:So actually job security
can be a false security.
693
:Geri: Yes.
694
:Tina: Because you, you know,
you stop learning and this is
695
:what academia could be seen at.
696
:Mm.
697
:If you have you as a
professor, it's just open.
698
:You know, this is my scientific group.
699
:I'm very young.
700
:It's very new.
701
:It's like a startup.
702
:Geri: I like that analogy of it
being a startup, because it, it also
703
:reminds you that there's a sense
of energy and enthusiasm about the
704
:work that you're doing because it's
a startup and you don't quite know.
705
:No.
706
:But yeah, the, the contributing to
potentially making something great.
707
:Tina: Yep.
708
:Of, of course.
709
:It's the potential.
710
:Yeah.
711
:So, and that is the same, you
know, what we need more of in
712
:Europe to take a risk mm-hmm.
713
:Instead of looking for
the security all the time.
714
:Yeah.
715
:Yeah.
716
:And that comes back to, you know, I
just take that again, that be honest
717
:as a professor when you recruit Yeah.
718
:Because if you have, you can be tough
as a leader, that's good, but you
719
:have it with a big heart and that
you mean that, you know, if you come
720
:here, you will learn certain things.
721
:Yeah.
722
:And that in any way can take you forward.
723
:Yeah.
724
:Yeah.
725
:Geri: So how do, how do you actually
engage in a conversation at, say
726
:a job interview with someone?
727
:Because you've got the CV where you
may be able to see that yes, they do
728
:have those technical skills I need.
729
:But you also talked about, um, the
emotional intelligence skills and the
730
:relationship skills and so on that, you
know, I know that we're talking about for
731
:professors, but I think everyone needs
in terms of the working relationships,
732
:do you have any tips for, um, people who
are recruiting PhDs or postdocs about
733
:how to pull out the stories that might
help you understand more of where they're
734
:coming from, from those sorts of skills?
735
:Or also what might be their more natural
talents that you know, you, you may
736
:be able to sort of help develop them.
737
:Yeah.
738
:Tina: Help them to develop them, you know?
739
:Yeah.
740
:They're usually so young when
they are PhDs and postdocs, so
741
:it's always a little bit harder.
742
:But an advice that I give is that try
not only to look on the technical skills
743
:Geri: mm-hmm.
744
:Tina: But also try to figure out
what drives the motivation they
745
:have and, and future perspectives.
746
:Uh, of course if you ask
standard questions, they, oh
747
:yeah, I'm gonna be a professor.
748
:But if you are on the interview
saying, do you know what, um,
749
:that's not important for me.
750
:If you want to be professor, go to
industry because they please you.
751
:They tell you, of course I'm gonna
stay in academia, but now that's not
752
:what I'm interested in to know if
you are gonna choose, because you
753
:know, many things can happen in life.
754
:I am interested in what
you can offer in my lab.
755
:Mm.
756
:Yeah.
757
:So you turn around and check how many
has actually read about my science.
758
:Mm.
759
:So you can ask these questions that
you more figure out, okay, how much do
760
:they know about what I do and the value
they think they can bring to what I do?
761
:Mm-hmm.
762
:And what if, if you want to do something
different in my life, what could that be?
763
:And I would challenge professors when
they recruit to have these more tricky
764
:storytelling questions where they have
to use their creativity very early on.
765
:You know, where you can actually,
in one interview focus on technical
766
:skills and in the next one more
on innovation and creativity.
767
:So then you recruit different
people and that you let them
768
:record a video, for example.
769
:Or if someone like to write, because
they are good, some are good on on
770
:recording, some are good on writing,
but it could be good to let them
771
:record so you get a picture of them.
772
:This is what I think, you know.
773
:Instead of having, you know, taking
industry interviews to science, I
774
:think that should develop a different
way of selecting the candidates.
775
:Mm-hmm.
776
:That, that's, as I see it.
777
:Yeah.
778
:I stand up.
779
:Well, that's the weakness.
780
:It doesn't make sense
for a PhD in a postdoc.
781
:It is what they can offer in that
set, particularly postdocs, you know?
782
:Okay.
783
:Have you read what I'm doing?
784
:What my son, what, what, what do you see?
785
:What, what value can they add in?
786
:What would you like to do?
787
:Mm, yeah.
788
:Geri: Mm-hmm.
789
:Tina: Particularly if you want
an, a postdoc as they call them.
790
:You know, the ones that are maybe
very innovative and like to be
791
:independent and all of them.
792
:It's very,
793
:Geri: so almost sort of looking for some
energy detection about when do they,
794
:what do they get excited about or, yeah.
795
:Even if they can't name it in
that way because they are younger.
796
:Tina: No, no, no, no.
797
:They can't name it.
798
:But you, you, you would figure it out
by listening to them if they have,
799
:you know, or if they are a very good.
800
:Uh, as I had in my lab, extremely
technical, skilled postdoc that maybe
801
:not very innovative, but can really run
the experiments because particularly
802
:in natural science, you had a lot of
routine experiments that needs to be done.
803
:Mm.
804
:She was absolutely fabulous doing that.
805
:Yeah.
806
:And that is also some driver
was of course a drive for her.
807
:Mm-hmm.
808
:, To go to the lab and, you know,
do a lot of the same experiments.
809
:Yeah.
810
:And then extract the information.
811
:So, so this is also something
that it's not so tricky to ask
812
:that this is how I would like to
challenge the professors to do it.
813
:Geri: Mm-hmm.
814
:I really liked also the thing about
815
:not just relying on sort of it's
face-to-face interview, but just
816
:recognizing that people can shine in
different ways and writing might be
817
:easier or recording a video beforehand
that they can think about a bit more.
818
:So that also recognizes that not everyone
is as good at performing in the moment.
819
:Tina: No.
820
:No, they're not.
821
:Geri: They're not.
822
:But um, there's also the challenge,
you know, I know that a recent job, uh,
823
:advertisement that at the university I
know attracted about 150 applications
824
:and, the challenge and another one
actually multiple hundreds, I know
825
:that we wanna get down to actually
being able to have these conversations
826
:and get to the storytelling.
827
:Any tips for that recruit?
828
:Absolutely.
829
:Filtering phase.
830
:It's a funnel that's, that's a
really hard phase to how do you,
831
:Tina: How I do that?
832
:I heard about that a lot as a recruiter
because, you know, for me it was
833
:like organizing the cvs was not
always the perfect way of doing it.
834
:I would put it this way.
835
:Today we have AI, you can use
ChatGPT if you just want to
836
:organize the, the, the cv.
837
:But that's not optimal.
838
:So yeah, I helped the professor in
United States and she had 150 resumes.
839
:I think, see and as I, and it's not
very efficient of you to sit there
840
:so that you go back with the mail
to all of them and let them record
841
:a video and not complicate it.
842
:Just why they apply what they want.
843
:You know, simp three questions
and they just answer these
844
:three questions with a video.
845
:And then we to together constructed
six questions so they could write
846
:an answer, only that action.
847
:And then she had only 20 left.
848
:Oh, okay.
849
:And that means that the rest,
they didn't put, they didn't
850
:put the energy in replying.
851
:So how interested are you when you don't
Mm take the work of recording and writing.
852
:So then she was down to 20 and 20
people, you could actually start
853
:to organize and start to call.
854
:So
855
:Geri: do you mean out of
the 150, only 20 came back?
856
:Tina: Yeah.
857
:Yeah.
858
:Geri: Wow.
859
:What a lot of wasted energy.
860
:'cause that means that
130 people were just Yeah.
861
:Taking a chance and throwing out
multiple CVs throwing out multi.
862
:Tina: Yeah.
863
:That's how it is.
864
:Yeah.
865
:And we know that in industry as well.
866
:That's an interesting model.
867
:No, no, it's an industry the same.
868
:Mm.
869
:So, and then what I did as a recruiter
and spend a lot of time doing is the
870
:next thing is they call them, and this
is maybe also with some professors, they
871
:prefer to send emails, but you have to
be careful because you can use ChatGPT.
872
:It looks really good in an email,
but it's not, it's ChatGPT or
873
:DeepSeek or whatever they call it
now that actually raise the email.
874
:So the best thing, you can book
a Zoom meeting or short call
875
:with three questions, not more.
876
:Uh, it takes maybe 15 minutes
per call and you get a very good
877
:sense of, you know, the person.
878
:Geri: Mm-hmm.
879
:Tina: That's worth it.
880
:That's worth it.
881
:Mm.
882
:And then you're down easily to five.
883
:Mm-hmm.
884
:Geri: And then you can
bring in those last Yeah.
885
:Pool of candidates for
the face, face-to-face and
886
:the lab visits and things.
887
:Tina: Yeah.
888
:Mm, so, so, so this is something,
and I talk with my good friend,
889
:Ana, when she's recruiting.
890
:Now she's working in an isolated
field, so she says, I know many of the
891
:clients, but she also emphasized the
importance of, of talking and listening
892
:and see people, particularly in the time
where you can basically use ChatGPT.
893
:So even though you are writing a
question, they will start to use ChatGPT.
894
:So it looks really good,
but it's not the person that
895
:actually constructed the answer.
896
:Geri: Yeah.
897
:Well that's interesting the way
that ChatGPT, and equivalent
898
:tools are challenging a lot of
our processes and procedures.
899
:Tina: Yeah.
900
:Geri: And just the nature
of scientific work.
901
:But then that's another,
yeah, that's another topic.
902
:Whole issue.
903
:Yeah.
904
:Tina: Yeah.
905
:So I would put it this way, that
you should deep dive in interviews.
906
:And go beyond the skills.
907
:And with that I was like,
you know, explore their why.
908
:Mm-hmm.
909
:How they think about the future, what kind
of team environment they would thrive in.
910
:And you know, are they looking
for a stepping stone or a growth?
911
:You know, is this a stepping stone
for an academic career or what
912
:kind of stepping stone is it?
913
:Geri: Mm-hmm.
914
:Tina: Yeah.
915
:This is, you know, digging a
little bit deeper in the interview.
916
:Yeah.
917
:Geri: Yeah.
918
:Any particular tips on how to
explore those questions with people?
919
:Like how do you explore their why, what,
what sort of questions might you ask them?
920
:Tina: Yeah.
921
:In academia it is sort of, if it's a
PhD position, it's a standard questions.
922
:You know, what do you hope to learn?
923
:Mm-hmm.
924
:From a PhD and what are you
gonna do with those learnings?
925
:Have they thought about it?
926
:It seems to be a simple
question, but it's not.
927
:Geri: Mm-hmm.
928
:Tina: Many start the PhD because
it's a logical step after Master's.
929
:Yes.
930
:Yeah.
931
:And they don't get the job
after the master, so they start,
932
:and that's perfectly fine.
933
:But you know, if they say, yeah, you know,
see if they did it to be honest and it.
934
:Yeah, I, I don't know.
935
:I just applied.
936
:I thought the topic was good.
937
:Okay.
938
:Okay.
939
:Mm-hmm.
940
:But what do you know about my topic then?
941
:Mm-hmm.
942
:I have a very, you gave a very good
idea how much they actually know.
943
:Geri: Mm.
944
:Tina: And I can share with you, Geri,
when I applied for postdoc for Fritz
945
:Eckstein, I didn't know what he was doing.
946
:So Fritz called me and asked
these questions, say, I really
947
:don't know, but I know one thing.
948
:I don't want to do organic chemistry,
but I want to go lab where the professor
949
:know organic chemistry and know how
to transition to molecule biology.
950
:That was the only thing I knew Fritz
said, well, that's the right place though.
951
:But I didn't know his science, you know,
I learned it when I came, but mm-hmm.
952
:That could be an explanation.
953
:Mm-hmm.
954
:So it doesn't mean that they have to be an
expert, but understand the why, you know?
955
:Yeah.
956
:What do you hope to learn from a PhD?
957
:What was the reason for you to
apply for this particular position?
958
:What do you hope to do after your PhD?
959
:Just to hear how the answer.
960
:Geri: Mm-hmm.
961
:And that points to the importance
of honesty on both sides.
962
:Yeah.
963
:Like, you know, as you said before, you
can give the answers that people Yeah.
964
:That you think they expect
to hear or that might Yeah.
965
:Get you the job, but then you've
gotta get in and do the job.
966
:And if you've lied or if you've
misrepresented what you care
967
:about or what your why is,
and there is a basic mismatch.
968
:Yeah.
969
:That's.
970
:It's scary.
971
:This is not a very wise decision.
972
:Tina: No, it's not wise.
973
:And this is where I coach my Yeah.
974
:PhD for a job in industry.
975
:They are sitting googling
what the perfect answer is.
976
:And I say it's not a very good
start because that is not you.
977
:You have to be honest.
978
:You must say.
979
:Well, I don't know.
980
:Or you can say, oh,
that's a good question.
981
:I have no clue actually.
982
:And you know, do you know what?
983
:I just applied, I applied for so
many jobs, so, uh, and I applied,
984
:but I'm so happy to be invited.
985
:And before the interview
I checked your company.
986
:That's perfectly fine.
987
:It just shows that you had high
activity and didn't really have
988
:time to check all the job ads.
989
:Geri: Mm-hmm.
990
:Tina: It's not a single person,
they wouldn't understand that.
991
:But it is about, you know, being
honest about why you do it.
992
:And, but that is also what professors
then need to have in mind to have fun.
993
:So if they say, do you know what
applied for 50 academic jobs?
994
:You are one of them, but I'm desperate.
995
:I want to do a PhD
because of, you know, yes.
996
:That's also way of standing out, you know?
997
:Geri: Do you see any differences,
you know, you talked about,
998
:um, coaching or working with
people in different countries.
999
:Do you see any differences,
particularly across countries?
:
00:51:02,947 --> 00:51:05,107
Tina: Oh yeah, it's big
culture differences.
:
00:51:05,857 --> 00:51:06,127
Yeah.
:
00:51:06,187 --> 00:51:09,697
Europe, it has differences
between the, the countries.
:
00:51:09,697 --> 00:51:13,537
I would say, uh, United States is
different, even though the Western
:
00:51:13,537 --> 00:51:15,157
world, I would say is very similar.
:
00:51:15,457 --> 00:51:19,087
But then you have the big continent,
India, you know, and you have the
:
00:51:19,087 --> 00:51:21,007
Asian world is very, very different.
:
00:51:22,137 --> 00:51:24,807
How you perceive, you know, and
how you want to present yourself.
:
00:51:24,867 --> 00:51:24,897
Mm.
:
00:51:25,557 --> 00:51:30,417
Also, how you want to, you know, be maybe
led and, and how you phrase and that
:
00:51:30,417 --> 00:51:35,307
is closely connected to a topic that we
need to discuss more in the future maybe.
:
00:51:35,307 --> 00:51:36,747
And that is the title.
:
00:51:37,017 --> 00:51:40,407
In some countries like Sweden,
the title is not important.
:
00:51:40,677 --> 00:51:41,727
It can be disadvantage.
:
00:51:42,777 --> 00:51:45,807
You can use your title, which
you mean like doctor, doctor.
:
00:51:45,807 --> 00:51:49,287
I have doctor on my LinkedIn and
when I'm in Sweden, they comment
:
00:51:49,287 --> 00:51:53,727
that every time and I say I have
it because I work internationally.
:
00:51:53,967 --> 00:51:54,747
Yeah, okay.
:
00:51:54,747 --> 00:51:59,157
They say, but if it was so that
I wanted to brand myself and look
:
00:51:59,157 --> 00:52:03,267
for a job in Sweden, it absolutely
necessary I remove the title.
:
00:52:03,957 --> 00:52:03,987
Geri: Okay.
:
00:52:04,227 --> 00:52:04,467
Tina: Yeah.
:
00:52:04,767 --> 00:52:09,297
And this is important when I career
coach people in Sweden that could you
:
00:52:09,297 --> 00:52:11,847
please stop talking about your title?
:
00:52:11,847 --> 00:52:17,277
It's not an advantage, you know, here you
go in and you need to be one in the team.
:
00:52:17,992 --> 00:52:22,012
And it doesn't matter what title
you have, your expertise you have,
:
00:52:22,072 --> 00:52:26,182
if people don't want to work with
you, you will not move forward.
:
00:52:26,242 --> 00:52:26,512
Yeah.
:
00:52:26,572 --> 00:52:28,582
So forget your title at the moment.
:
00:52:28,582 --> 00:52:28,672
Yeah.
:
00:52:28,672 --> 00:52:30,502
You have to to show it differently.
:
00:52:30,502 --> 00:52:30,592
Mm-hmm.
:
00:52:30,862 --> 00:52:34,282
Whereas you go to Germany,
title is no problem, France.
:
00:52:34,282 --> 00:52:34,912
No problem.
:
00:52:35,332 --> 00:52:40,402
So you sort of, there you need it,
but it's even more important in India.
:
00:52:41,092 --> 00:52:41,482
Geri: Mm.
:
00:52:42,292 --> 00:52:43,042
A title.
:
00:52:43,312 --> 00:52:43,942
Tina: A title.
:
00:52:44,032 --> 00:52:44,362
Yeah.
:
00:52:45,142 --> 00:52:48,562
So, so, so there we have
differences in, in the coaching
:
00:52:48,562 --> 00:52:49,852
and how we present ourself.
:
00:52:49,912 --> 00:52:50,002
Mm-hmm.
:
00:52:50,422 --> 00:52:55,702
But I think if you look in the future
and now coming to something that I
:
00:52:55,702 --> 00:52:59,932
think also academia are going to be very
important, but we haven't discussed so
:
00:52:59,932 --> 00:53:07,012
much about, and that is that when we
introduce AI In both science or in career
:
00:53:07,012 --> 00:53:12,832
coaching or in industry, I think it
was McKinsey or PWC They found a study.
:
00:53:13,372 --> 00:53:18,472
Uh, they did a study where they could
show that it took very young consultancies
:
00:53:18,952 --> 00:53:21,352
and older ones experienced one.
:
00:53:21,742 --> 00:53:29,662
And when allowed to use AI, the gap in
skill and knowledge became always equal.
:
00:53:30,292 --> 00:53:30,517
Geri: Mm mm
:
00:53:31,042 --> 00:53:35,932
Tina: That means that you can, with
the right use of AI compensate.
:
00:53:36,667 --> 00:53:41,167
With that said means that you can
have a PhD title, you can have an ex
:
00:53:41,887 --> 00:53:46,687
high exam from the academic world,
but since people can use AI, they
:
00:53:46,687 --> 00:53:48,547
can very well start to compensate.
:
00:53:48,817 --> 00:53:48,907
Mm-hmm.
:
00:53:49,147 --> 00:53:53,407
So PhDs need to use
this skills differently.
:
00:53:53,737 --> 00:53:56,077
And this is also what I
introduced to my coaching, you
:
00:53:56,077 --> 00:53:58,177
know, be more critical mindset.
:
00:53:58,327 --> 00:53:58,927
Geri: Mm-hmm.
:
00:53:59,407 --> 00:54:05,107
Tina: Analyzing, connecting the dots,
coming from a different perspective there.
:
00:54:05,587 --> 00:54:07,747
And that is what we call
transferable skills.
:
00:54:07,987 --> 00:54:08,527
Geri: Mm-hmm.
:
00:54:10,417 --> 00:54:16,117
That's interesting about the different
challenges now that AI is both
:
00:54:16,297 --> 00:54:18,487
leveling the, leveling the field a bit.
:
00:54:18,487 --> 00:54:18,637
Yeah.
:
00:54:18,667 --> 00:54:24,957
And also making different
skills, um, more important.
:
00:54:25,317 --> 00:54:25,677
Tina: Yeah.
:
00:54:25,947 --> 00:54:26,712
It is human skills.
:
00:54:26,902 --> 00:54:28,072
It's the human skills.
:
00:54:28,317 --> 00:54:33,147
And I say we go from, with the
help of AI, our human skills.
:
00:54:33,147 --> 00:54:33,237
Geri: Mm-hmm.
:
00:54:34,047 --> 00:54:36,177
Tina: Gonna be more important than ever.
:
00:54:36,177 --> 00:54:36,267
Mm-hmm.
:
00:54:36,267 --> 00:54:39,027
And that is what we are
not training in academia.
:
00:54:39,117 --> 00:54:39,357
Geri: Mm-hmm.
:
00:54:39,777 --> 00:54:40,047
Tina: Yeah.
:
00:54:40,047 --> 00:54:42,297
So here we also have is a gap.
:
00:54:42,357 --> 00:54:45,087
Uh, so human-centric skills.
:
00:54:45,207 --> 00:54:45,627
Mm-hmm.
:
00:54:45,777 --> 00:54:47,967
It's gonna be very, very
important to develop.
:
00:54:47,967 --> 00:54:49,557
Geri: I totally agree.
:
00:54:49,857 --> 00:54:50,967
So important.
:
00:54:51,597 --> 00:54:56,727
Um, because human-centric skills are
at the core of what you said about
:
00:54:56,757 --> 00:55:03,087
once you've employed your PhD student
or your postdoc, the focus then on
:
00:55:03,177 --> 00:55:08,007
how do you work with them to plan
and manage their career path so that
:
00:55:08,007 --> 00:55:11,907
this is about secure, um, career.
:
00:55:12,027 --> 00:55:15,027
You know, like helping
them learn and develop.
:
00:55:15,507 --> 00:55:15,627
Yeah.
:
00:55:15,627 --> 00:55:20,907
So that, that needs skills to know how
to have that conversation very early.
:
00:55:21,177 --> 00:55:24,777
Very early, and work out what's
learning and development for this
:
00:55:24,777 --> 00:55:26,697
person and where do they wanna go to.
:
00:55:27,057 --> 00:55:29,247
Tina: And you know, something.
:
00:55:29,592 --> 00:55:34,392
I discussed with some of my clients
that they say, you know, I have a post
:
00:55:34,542 --> 00:55:36,792
that dreaming of an academic career.
:
00:55:36,972 --> 00:55:37,242
Geri: Mm.
:
00:55:37,332 --> 00:55:39,737
Tina: And you know, there could
be many reasons behind it.
:
00:55:39,737 --> 00:55:43,692
It could be family reasons,
it could be status reasons.
:
00:55:43,692 --> 00:55:47,382
It could be that they have been
dreaming of it like me, you know, and
:
00:55:47,382 --> 00:55:52,452
then, you know, but he, it's no why
this person got to be able to perform
:
00:55:53,022 --> 00:55:56,442
an academic career, at least not in
this country, not this institute.
:
00:55:56,532 --> 00:56:00,192
Because that's simple, not
those skills, you know?
:
00:56:00,192 --> 00:56:01,302
Mm-hmm.
:
00:56:01,303 --> 00:56:06,192
Because a successful professor today, they
need a, you know, human centric skills.
:
00:56:06,192 --> 00:56:06,522
Yes.
:
00:56:06,522 --> 00:56:10,032
But they need basically to run
their own company, you know, they
:
00:56:10,032 --> 00:56:11,652
need to be very enterprising.
:
00:56:12,657 --> 00:56:18,927
And enterprising contact that I'm able
to network and connect with people and
:
00:56:18,927 --> 00:56:20,937
to understand where is the world going?
:
00:56:20,937 --> 00:56:23,127
Where is the next funding opportunity?
:
00:56:23,457 --> 00:56:27,867
And if, if you don't have that sort
of, then it will be very challenging.
:
00:56:27,867 --> 00:56:30,957
But you can still stay in academia,
but at another level maybe.
:
00:56:30,982 --> 00:56:31,302
Geri: Mm-hmm.
:
00:56:31,497 --> 00:56:31,677
Tina: Yeah.
:
00:56:31,737 --> 00:56:31,977
Yeah.
:
00:56:31,977 --> 00:56:36,147
Or you just say, no, you
better go somewhere else.
:
00:56:36,147 --> 00:56:40,107
Maybe there's a staff position for you
or you, you decide for something else.
:
00:56:40,107 --> 00:56:40,197
Mm-hmm.
:
00:56:40,527 --> 00:56:44,817
These discussions, I know many
professors have a hard time to take,
:
00:56:45,447 --> 00:56:48,957
you know, to, to tell them that,
you know, no, it's an end here.
:
00:56:50,457 --> 00:56:52,527
Geri: So that's a
different form of honesty.
:
00:56:52,527 --> 00:56:53,457
That's, yeah.
:
00:56:53,907 --> 00:56:54,207
Challenging.
:
00:56:54,567 --> 00:56:57,387
Tina: It's, yeah, it's, and as
a career coach, coach, I've been
:
00:56:57,387 --> 00:57:01,647
there many times myself, I have to
phrase it differently, but it's, you
:
00:57:01,647 --> 00:57:03,507
know, it's really hard discussions.
:
00:57:04,557 --> 00:57:04,857
Mm-hmm.
:
00:57:05,472 --> 00:57:08,832
Geri: But it is a gift to be able to
have that discussion well with people.
:
00:57:08,832 --> 00:57:12,672
'cause it's not about, you are not
good for this, but there are places
:
00:57:12,672 --> 00:57:15,732
that are gonna be a better, what, you
know, where it's gonna be a better
:
00:57:15,732 --> 00:57:17,532
match for your natural talents.
:
00:57:17,532 --> 00:57:18,162
Tina: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
:
00:57:18,162 --> 00:57:19,362
A better match for you.
:
00:57:19,542 --> 00:57:20,112
Mm-hmm.
:
00:57:20,202 --> 00:57:21,162
It's about matching.
:
00:57:21,762 --> 00:57:21,822
Yeah.
:
00:57:21,822 --> 00:57:24,402
And I, you know, in the future,
that's gonna be even more
:
00:57:24,402 --> 00:57:26,292
important even for companies.
:
00:57:26,382 --> 00:57:26,712
Geri: Mm.
:
00:57:26,742 --> 00:57:29,412
Tina: Because they, they are
transforming so quickly now.
:
00:57:29,412 --> 00:57:31,032
So you can be very well in one.
:
00:57:32,367 --> 00:57:35,577
Position for quite a while, and then
suddenly it's not there any longer.
:
00:57:35,817 --> 00:57:35,967
Mm-hmm.
:
00:57:35,967 --> 00:57:38,697
And you have to pivot
somewhere completely else.
:
00:57:38,727 --> 00:57:38,967
Yeah.
:
00:57:39,357 --> 00:57:41,877
We call it upskilling and transformation.
:
00:57:42,327 --> 00:57:42,627
Geri: Yeah.
:
00:57:42,927 --> 00:57:43,167
I know.
:
00:57:43,217 --> 00:57:48,857
The pivoting is going to be all the more
important even within, even when you
:
00:57:48,857 --> 00:57:52,337
are in supposedly a secure position.
:
00:57:52,337 --> 00:57:52,847
Yes, of course.
:
00:57:52,847 --> 00:57:53,837
Tina: Secure position.
:
00:57:53,837 --> 00:57:54,017
Yeah.
:
00:57:54,197 --> 00:57:57,617
Geri: The, the pivoting in how you
interpret that and play it out.
:
00:57:57,617 --> 00:58:02,147
I mean, even what we see now with people
in, you know, people who are lecturing
:
00:58:02,207 --> 00:58:06,797
courses in universities, having to
rethink what does it mean to lecture?
:
00:58:06,857 --> 00:58:08,057
What does it mean to learn?
:
00:58:08,057 --> 00:58:11,387
What does it mean to assess
learning when people have access
:
00:58:11,387 --> 00:58:13,067
to these, you know, oh yeah.
:
00:58:13,597 --> 00:58:16,097
ChatGPT and tools related tools.
:
00:58:16,817 --> 00:58:21,047
Tina: I just say, I, I, I say
I am a career coach, leadership
:
00:58:21,047 --> 00:58:22,427
coach, call me, whatever.
:
00:58:22,727 --> 00:58:28,817
And I gave, uh, a seminar for online
for people, career coaches in Singapore,
:
00:58:29,357 --> 00:58:30,767
and they said, you know, but Tina.
:
00:58:31,517 --> 00:58:35,777
You talk about AI, you know, because
I give it a seminar about how to
:
00:58:35,777 --> 00:58:40,967
use AI as your career ally, as a
career coach to support your client.
:
00:58:41,417 --> 00:58:44,627
And, and I discussed it, and
it's a lot about natural talents.
:
00:58:44,627 --> 00:58:49,757
And so, but there must be a risk, Tina,
that we, we are not needed in the future.
:
00:58:49,967 --> 00:58:51,887
And my, my logical answer, of course.
:
00:58:51,917 --> 00:58:52,127
Yeah.
:
00:58:52,157 --> 00:58:52,667
Yeah.
:
00:58:52,667 --> 00:58:53,657
It could very well be.
:
00:58:54,167 --> 00:58:55,247
But that's a fact.
:
00:58:55,247 --> 00:58:56,507
We can't change a fact.
:
00:58:56,747 --> 00:59:01,067
It's more how we orient ourself, but
honestly, we've been there before.
:
00:59:01,157 --> 00:59:01,217
Hmm.
:
00:59:01,217 --> 00:59:04,697
It's been in UK when spinning Jenny came.
:
00:59:04,697 --> 00:59:04,787
Yes.
:
00:59:05,087 --> 00:59:07,067
And people are, we are
never gonna get a job.
:
00:59:07,247 --> 00:59:11,417
But the fact was that spinning
jenny generated more jobs.
:
00:59:11,572 --> 00:59:11,832
Yeah.
:
00:59:11,987 --> 00:59:12,197
Yeah.
:
00:59:12,467 --> 00:59:15,287
So it could be that I'm not
the career coach in the future.
:
00:59:15,287 --> 00:59:19,907
I might be something else, but you
know, we need to go hand in hand
:
00:59:19,907 --> 00:59:23,837
with, with the technology sort of,
and, and, and if you're open-minded,
:
00:59:23,842 --> 00:59:25,637
you, you will find a new path.
:
00:59:26,537 --> 00:59:29,117
Geri: This goes back to
your unseen opportunities.
:
00:59:29,177 --> 00:59:29,297
Yes.
:
00:59:29,297 --> 00:59:33,047
That you said at the very beginning
and about having agency and helping
:
00:59:33,047 --> 00:59:34,847
to shape and create those as.
:
00:59:34,862 --> 00:59:35,152
Yeah.
:
00:59:35,567 --> 00:59:35,807
Yeah.
:
00:59:36,077 --> 00:59:41,027
Well, so it does paint a very
interesting, exciting, challenging
:
00:59:41,027 --> 00:59:46,217
picture of careers in the future that
we're always going to be challenged and
:
00:59:46,217 --> 00:59:51,367
need to reinvent, whether it's changing
from a limited contract to another
:
00:59:51,367 --> 00:59:53,647
limited contract or even within a role.
:
00:59:54,157 --> 00:59:59,797
Um, and that we need to look out for
those personal skills that people have
:
00:59:59,797 --> 01:00:03,637
and, and their natural talents and
how we can be mutually beneficial.
:
01:00:03,817 --> 01:00:04,057
Hmm.
:
01:00:04,657 --> 01:00:04,867
Yeah.
:
01:00:04,927 --> 01:00:07,957
So this has been really
interesting and stimulating.
:
01:00:07,957 --> 01:00:11,437
Tina, are there any things that
we've not talked about that you think
:
01:00:11,437 --> 01:00:13,717
would be important just around that?
:
01:00:13,797 --> 01:00:17,277
Tina: Yeah, I have something I like
to challenge the professors with.
:
01:00:17,277 --> 01:00:21,387
I am quite sure some professors already
do it, but they do it in industry.
:
01:00:21,387 --> 01:00:24,747
And that is that when you are
gonna recruit people, invite
:
01:00:24,747 --> 01:00:26,607
your team into the process.
:
01:00:28,767 --> 01:00:34,587
So let the team evaluate the people,
I think, you know, because you
:
01:00:34,587 --> 01:00:36,027
know they're gonna work in a team.
:
01:00:36,027 --> 01:00:36,447
Yeah.
:
01:00:38,382 --> 01:00:42,342
So, and, and that if you have a
well-functioning team, they like
:
01:00:42,342 --> 01:00:44,202
to work with you for a reason.
:
01:00:44,262 --> 01:00:45,942
They can help you in the process.
:
01:00:46,432 --> 01:00:52,042
And also that I know, and I like to
challenge some, uh, you know, professors
:
01:00:52,042 --> 01:00:57,112
that help your team to attract talents
by allowing them to be on social media,
:
01:00:57,352 --> 01:01:03,802
because it is, as I wrote, build a culture
in your group that attracts talents.
:
01:01:04,042 --> 01:01:08,632
Then you don't have to advertise
or you, maybe if you advertise,
:
01:01:08,632 --> 01:01:14,512
you get the ones you want because
that is word spread today.
:
01:01:16,192 --> 01:01:25,192
So if your former PhDs and postdocs
are thriving afterlife and say they
:
01:01:25,192 --> 01:01:30,052
felt seen and supported, you will
never struggle to recruit again.
:
01:01:30,052 --> 01:01:30,922
Geri: Mm-hmm.
:
01:01:32,632 --> 01:01:33,232
Yeah.
:
01:01:34,972 --> 01:01:38,152
That is really interesting too, that
:
01:01:41,632 --> 01:01:48,532
giving to people and that the, like,
it continues to give on in a way.
:
01:01:48,592 --> 01:01:52,222
And that's, that's about building
culture as well because they carry
:
01:01:52,222 --> 01:01:59,362
forward that same attitude of care
and helping people learn and develop.
:
01:01:59,482 --> 01:02:00,022
Yeah.
:
01:02:00,172 --> 01:02:03,232
Tina: And as a professor, you,
when the people are leaving
:
01:02:03,232 --> 01:02:05,182
your group, you grow with them.
:
01:02:05,632 --> 01:02:06,082
Geri: Mm-hmm.
:
01:02:06,622 --> 01:02:10,492
Tina: So they will be your next
generation collaborators and et cetera.
:
01:02:10,492 --> 01:02:10,582
Yes.
:
01:02:10,762 --> 01:02:14,752
This is what really, you know,
some greater professors that
:
01:02:14,752 --> 01:02:18,712
I know that I admire, that is
a system they are using a lot.
:
01:02:18,922 --> 01:02:21,652
So they get a referral
system, alumni system.
:
01:02:21,652 --> 01:02:21,922
Yeah.
:
01:02:21,982 --> 01:02:22,792
Supporting them.
:
01:02:23,152 --> 01:02:23,512
Geri: Yeah.
:
01:02:24,952 --> 01:02:29,707
And again, that comes back to the
emotional intelligence skills, the
:
01:02:29,707 --> 01:02:35,037
relationship skills that as you
said, we are not so good in academia
:
01:02:35,037 --> 01:02:39,147
at actually helping people develop,
and yet they're, they're core to
:
01:02:39,147 --> 01:02:44,187
building your research group in which
people can thrive and, um, yeah.
:
01:02:44,187 --> 01:02:46,227
Helping them with their career journeys.
:
01:02:47,307 --> 01:02:47,727
Yeah.
:
01:02:47,997 --> 01:02:51,837
Tina: It would change a lot in academia
if they could get that sort of culture.
:
01:02:52,377 --> 01:02:52,677
Yeah.
:
01:02:52,677 --> 01:02:53,217
I put it that way.
:
01:02:53,367 --> 01:02:54,417
Yeah, it would happen a lot.
:
01:02:55,017 --> 01:02:55,107
Yeah.
:
01:02:55,197 --> 01:03:00,117
It's much more innovation going on,
uh, in academia than it is today.
:
01:03:00,177 --> 01:03:00,447
Mm-hmm.
:
01:03:00,447 --> 01:03:05,337
Because I know, I know there's huge
mental health problems, not only
:
01:03:05,337 --> 01:03:09,057
among PhDs and postdocs, but also
among professors and lecturers.
:
01:03:09,387 --> 01:03:09,928
Geri: Yes, yes.
:
01:03:10,407 --> 01:03:10,677
Yeah.
:
01:03:10,767 --> 01:03:14,217
And our culture and, and you know,
the systemic issues that you talked
:
01:03:14,217 --> 01:03:19,467
about, as well as the local culture
that people are experiencing.
:
01:03:20,277 --> 01:03:21,657
Big contributors to that.
:
01:03:21,837 --> 01:03:22,107
Tina: Mm-hmm.
:
01:03:23,727 --> 01:03:24,237
Mm.
:
01:03:24,537 --> 01:03:28,197
So if someone is listening to this and
I say, you know, maybe I should go,
:
01:03:28,197 --> 01:03:30,027
but I'm a professor, it's not possible.
:
01:03:30,057 --> 01:03:30,327
Yes.
:
01:03:30,327 --> 01:03:32,312
It's, I know it.
:
01:03:34,197 --> 01:03:35,547
It is possible to pivot.
:
01:03:35,787 --> 01:03:36,552
It's never too late.
:
01:03:36,552 --> 01:03:37,072
Yes, yes.
:
01:03:37,072 --> 01:03:37,712
Never too late.
:
01:03:38,072 --> 01:03:39,632
Yeah, it's possible.
:
01:03:39,632 --> 01:03:41,907
Geri: And you're paying a
cost either way, aren't you?
:
01:03:41,912 --> 01:03:41,992
Yes.
:
01:03:41,992 --> 01:03:44,967
Like if you stay just because you
think you ought to, or it's too
:
01:03:44,967 --> 01:03:52,227
scary to pivot and you are in that
de-energized zone, what a cost.
:
01:03:52,557 --> 01:03:57,087
Tina: It's a huge cost, uh, emotionally,
and it's a cost on your health.
:
01:03:57,177 --> 01:03:59,727
And, and sort of, as you
know, we have one life.
:
01:03:59,787 --> 01:04:06,027
So, and you don't know it is about the
unseen, so it's just a decision you took.
:
01:04:06,297 --> 01:04:09,087
It doesn't mean you can't come
back in a different shape.
:
01:04:09,447 --> 01:04:09,807
Mm-hmm.
:
01:04:09,822 --> 01:04:15,132
I, it, it, you know, I'm contributing with
my why in academia in a different way.
:
01:04:15,702 --> 01:04:16,422
Yes.
:
01:04:16,512 --> 01:04:20,172
So, so it's sort of coming back,
but I'm still on the periphery.
:
01:04:20,172 --> 01:04:21,522
I realize that.
:
01:04:21,522 --> 01:04:21,582
Yeah.
:
01:04:21,612 --> 01:04:26,892
So, so I think, but I also understand
because if you leave, it's like leaving.
:
01:04:27,622 --> 01:04:33,247
I can see some similarities when I worked
as recruiter,::
01:04:33,517 --> 01:04:41,587
:any longer, but we had AstraZeneca, uh,
:
01:04:41,677 --> 01:04:47,617
Lund in, in Sweden, and they had fused,
it was Astra then Zeneca in UK and
:
01:04:47,617 --> 01:04:49,867
they decided to close the site in Lund.
:
01:04:50,077 --> 01:04:54,727
You know, it was just 700 researchers,
I think it was, and everyone, you know,
:
01:04:54,727 --> 01:04:56,346
they thought, oh no, it's gonna be awful.
:
01:04:56,677 --> 01:04:58,027
But afterwards, it just.
:
01:04:58,402 --> 01:05:00,952
They said, you know, it was
really good because so many
:
01:05:00,952 --> 01:05:02,422
good things came out of it.
:
01:05:02,752 --> 01:05:06,892
But this is to sort of have the mindset
also that I understand if you have
:
01:05:06,892 --> 01:05:11,272
been working in a company or in a
culture like academia, it's a culture.
:
01:05:11,902 --> 01:05:13,552
It is like leaving a family.
:
01:05:15,082 --> 01:05:18,082
And we have to be aware
of, this is psychology.
:
01:05:18,082 --> 01:05:23,332
If you leave a family like academia,
uh, I was like, it's like people
:
01:05:23,332 --> 01:05:24,922
gonna cite, you can't do it.
:
01:05:25,792 --> 01:05:28,492
They're gonna tell you it's gonna
be awful, it's gonna be terrible,
:
01:05:28,762 --> 01:05:32,212
and they will do everything they
can to pull you back to the family.
:
01:05:32,632 --> 01:05:35,452
But that's the moment you have to
say, do you know I love you, but it's
:
01:05:35,452 --> 01:05:37,132
time for me to do something else.
:
01:05:37,492 --> 01:05:37,642
Geri: Yeah.
:
01:05:39,127 --> 01:05:41,677
And I, I think that's a lovely
point to finish on, that you can
:
01:05:41,677 --> 01:05:43,657
still connect to your why Yeah.
:
01:05:43,657 --> 01:05:47,587
And bring that through, and that you
can still use your natural talents Yes.
:
01:05:47,587 --> 01:05:51,007
In different ways, in different
domains, in different career paths.
:
01:05:51,132 --> 01:05:51,352
Yes.
:
01:05:51,607 --> 01:05:52,117
Yes, you can.
:
01:05:52,117 --> 01:05:53,257
Oh, thank you, Tina.
:
01:05:53,257 --> 01:05:54,997
This has been really, really interesting.
:
01:05:55,147 --> 01:05:58,567
And if people wanted to find out
more about what you offer and that,
:
01:05:58,567 --> 01:05:59,857
where would you point them to?
:
01:06:00,187 --> 01:06:04,987
Tina: I would point them either to
my mail that's tina@passagetopro.com
:
01:06:05,287 --> 01:06:08,237
or to my web page, uh, passage to pro.com.
:
01:06:08,987 --> 01:06:09,077
Mm-hmm.
:
01:06:09,077 --> 01:06:12,697
You find me also on LinkedIn, so it's
just to connect with Tina Persson.
:
01:06:12,947 --> 01:06:13,068
Yeah, yeah.
:
01:06:13,697 --> 01:06:15,004
And reach out to me.
:
01:06:15,004 --> 01:06:19,787
Geri: I like the passage to pro because
that does imply that the pivoting
:
01:06:19,787 --> 01:06:21,767
isn't just a moment to another moment.
:
01:06:21,767 --> 01:06:22,697
It's a journey.
:
01:06:22,877 --> 01:06:23,567
Tina: It's a journey.
:
01:06:23,867 --> 01:06:24,346
Exactly.
:
01:06:24,352 --> 01:06:24,532
Yeah.
:
01:06:24,857 --> 01:06:25,067
Yeah.
:
01:06:25,096 --> 01:06:26,867
I actually got people saying, wait, why?
:
01:06:26,987 --> 01:06:28,517
Why do you say Passage to pro?
:
01:06:28,517 --> 01:06:29,507
Because you're never pro.
:
01:06:30,182 --> 01:06:30,392
Hmm.
:
01:06:31,502 --> 01:06:31,742
Yeah.
:
01:06:32,042 --> 01:06:33,872
' Geri: Cause it's always this ongoing.
:
01:06:33,932 --> 01:06:34,682
Tina: Yeah, it's ongoing.
:
01:06:35,132 --> 01:06:35,522
Geri: Yeah.
:
01:06:36,092 --> 01:06:37,232
Lifelong learning.
:
01:06:37,832 --> 01:06:39,542
Thank you very much, Tina.
:
01:06:39,962 --> 01:06:41,762
Tina: Thank you Geri, for inviting me.
:
01:06:41,762 --> 01:06:45,302
And it's been absolutely lovely to
be invited to chat and thank you
:
01:06:45,302 --> 01:06:47,642
for this amazing talk with you.
:
01:06:47,647 --> 01:06:52,622
It was really, really comfortable and
interesting, uh, talking with you.
:
01:06:52,952 --> 01:06:53,432
Great.
:
01:06:53,457 --> 01:06:54,047
Geri: Thank you.
:
01:06:58,487 --> 01:07:02,567
You can find the summary notes, a
transcript and related links for this
:
01:07:02,567 --> 01:07:07,487
podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.
:
01:07:08,147 --> 01:07:13,127
You can also subscribe to Changing
Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify.
:
01:07:13,177 --> 01:07:16,267
And I'm really hoping that we can
widen the conversation about how
:
01:07:16,267 --> 01:07:18,187
we can do academia differently.
:
01:07:18,607 --> 01:07:22,807
And you can contribute to this by rating
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:
01:07:23,257 --> 01:07:26,797
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:
01:07:26,797 --> 01:07:28,417
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:
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