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Episode 18

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Published on:

21st May 2025

Tina Persson on career pivots, recruitment and coaching for career security (CAL124, S6 E18)

Tina Persson shares her journey from chemistry and nearly 20 years in academia, to recruiting and then career coaching. Tina discusses the challenges she faced in academia, including struggles with energy-draining tasks and political landscapes, and how she pivoted to a career in recruitment and coaching. She emphasizes the importance of understanding natural talents, emotional intelligence, and honest communication in career development. The conversation covers valuable tips for professors on recruiting and supporting early-career researchers, the impact of AI on career skills, and the cultural differences in career transitions. Tina also highlights the significance of lifelong learning and being open to unseen opportunities, offering practical advice for academics, those seeking an academic position, and those considering a career pivot.

 Overview:

00:29 Episode Introduction

03:02 Introducing Tina and her Academic Journey

10:18 Transition to Industry

12:24 Becoming a PhD Recruiter

15:25 Coaching and Career Development

25:24 Recruitment Tips for Professors

36:00 Startup Mentality in Academia

38:43 Evaluating Candidates Beyond Technical Skills

40:35 Innovative Interview Techniques

43:09 Filtering Candidates Efficiently

50:57 Cultural Differences in Recruitment

52:50 The Role of AI in Recruitment

54:25 Human-Centric Skills in Academia

01:00:13 Building a Supportive Academic Culture

01:03:23 The Importance of Career Pivoting

01:05:52 Conclusion and Contact Information

Related links

Related to Tina:

About Tina and her LinkedIn profile and Passage2Pro

PhD Career Stories Podcast and upcoming book

People: Sarah Blackford , Fritz Eckstein 

Holland’s Theory of Career Choice

Transcript
Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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When I run workshops with, young

professors, even experienced

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professors, one of the questions

that often comes up is, how do you

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know how to recruit someone good?

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And that was my motivation for wanting

to talk with Tina Perrson because she's

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brings together unique experience in

this regard and the conversation ends

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up covering this and so much more.

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So i'm really happy to share this

conversation with Tina Perrson.

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Tina's interesting because she worked

in academia for nearly 20 years working

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in chemistry, and then she moved on

to work in a recruitment company and

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created a niche for herself there

and recruiting post PhD people.

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And now she's working as an academic

career coach, where she brings

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together all that she's learned

from her different backgrounds

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in both academia and recruitment.

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She shares really honestly, about

her own career journey and the

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challenges she faced in academia

that led her to pivot to a career in

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recruitment, and then the coaching.

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And then where she talks more about

career pivots and recruitment more

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generally, I love the way she invites

us to not just focus on job security

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per se, but to take a bigger lens and

think instead about career security and

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how we can set ourselves up for that

and how we as leaders can support others

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in their longer career trajectories.

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So there's lots of tips for people

from all sides of the equation here.

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Whether you are applying for a PhD

or postdoc position, or whether

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you are the professor on the other

end who's doing the recruitment.

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There are lots of tips that she

offers for the recruitment process.

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And there's also lots of good advice

for people who might be thinking

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of pivoting out of academia.

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Along the way, we also touch on

issues like the importance of

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understanding your natural talents,

of emotional intelligence, of being

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really honest in how we communicate

the realities of academic career

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paths and career development, on

the role of AI in the recruitment

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process and cultural differences.

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As I said, there's lots there

for, for all sorts of people.

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So I really hope you enjoy

this conversation with Tina.

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Tina, thank you very much

for joining me today.

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I was really excited to meet you and one

of the reasons why I thought it could

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be really useful to talk was when we run

workshops with academics and early career

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researchers, often the question that comes

up again and again and again is how do

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you know how to employ the right people?

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And given your background that

we're gonna hear about soon, I

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just thought you'd be a wonderful

person to explore this issue with.

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So would you like to

just introduce yourself?

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Tina: Absolutely.

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And first of all, thank you for

inviting me to your absolute lovely

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pod that I got noticed on on LinkedIn.

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Right.

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You know, you got recognized.

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So congratulations, uh, Geri.

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Uh, yeah, my background.

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My name is Tina Persson and I started

off my career as a young woman in

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academia doing a PhD and with sort of

an aim of going abroad, doing a postoc.

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And from there I, I just had one

career in mind and that was to stay

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in academia to become a professor.

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So it was sort of a lot

of step to go back home.

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Uh, that is Sweden, Lund University.

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And being in academia, uh, I

realized very shortly that.

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It's not being a supervisor,

trying to build a group.

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As a young woman with no support system

around, it's very, very difficult.

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Mm-hmm.

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So I started to doubt myself, but I

also found that I'm doing too many

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things that doesn't give me energy.

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So I decided to leave and that.

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This time, that is 2005, 2006.

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You know, time is runnings.

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20 years ago it was very, very

uncommon that if you had come so

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far, you were fighting to stay.

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Mm-hmm.

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But I just said no.

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So I pivot to say, listen, so just your

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Geri: disciplinary area

that you were working in?

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Tina: My disciplinary area

was organic chemistry.

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Geri: Yeah.

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Tina: In the beginning.

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But I transitioned to

molecule biology in RNA.

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So at the Max Plank Institute

I worked within the RNA

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field in the early nineties.

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So that was really in the

beginning of RNA science.

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Yes.

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So in my lab we work with the CRISP

before crisp, but with catalytic RNA

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ligation of RNA and some of the scientists

later on work with SI and MI RNA.

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So I know if.

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You know, just to share, because I know

you have many academic people here on

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the podcast, I attended a conference

in San Francisco and I think that,

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uh, right six to eight Nobel Prizes,

you know, that attended that virtual.

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Wow.

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They hadn't, some had got the Nobel

Prize, some of them were waiting to get

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it, and one woman was Jennifer Dunna

and she was basically in her first or

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second year as an assistant professor.

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So I remember that very, very clearly.

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So looking back, I realized I was sitting

in a red Ferrari, but I didn't know that.

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So I thought, honestly, coming

back to Sweden with that sort of

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portfolio, I would be extremely

attractive and easily get funding.

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Um, but I couldn't be more wrong.

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I couldn't be more wrong.

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Mm, absolutely.

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So.

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Yeah,

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Geri: you, and you said about you

felt like you weren't getting energy.

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Can you unpack that a little bit more?

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Tina: Oh, very good.

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That dissecting it, I'm so

trying to just give a very short,

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brief background about myself.

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But when I started, you know, being

a PhD, being a postdoc, particularly

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postdoc time, it was tough.

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It was, you know, hard competition

in the lab, but it was, it fitted me.

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I was focused on doing science.

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I could go to conferences.

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I had great discussions, uh, in the lab

that I was to discuss scientific problems.

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So sort of a future of, you

know, being part of something

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very big and important and.

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I think now looking back, I used

my sort of openness, innovation,

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curiosity, writing, you know,

scientific articles, but I didn't have

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to write them for, for perfection.

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I was much more hands on in the lab.

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I was there sort of figuring out new ways.

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So actually getting a, an article, so

coming back and I was a supervisor,

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suddenly I was fully responsible for

pulling in the funding, which means

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you're sitting writing fund applications.

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So I was stuck applying for

funding and writing articles.

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And it sounds maybe very strange, but I

don't like to write articles, you know?

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So for me it's like, then it's over.

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So honestly, you can't be a professor

to that if you're not really, you know,

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like to write, conceptualizing and

writing and it doesn't give me energy.

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And that was one thing.

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The other one was the political system.

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Geri: Hmm.

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Tina: I realized very quickly that, you

know, they said you have to publish.

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At least they said that to me

as a woman, you have to publish.

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You have to publish work harder.

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But I said, it's no point because it's

you anyway, saying I have to work harder.

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They give me the funding, so why can't

you just tell me if I'm good enough or

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if you are interested in investing in me?

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But I never got that answer.

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So I looked around myself, Geri,

and said, okay, how many women

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at this university has really

succeeded to go where I see myself?

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Geri: Mm.

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Tina: And at that time, it wasn't many.

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And all of them were much

more founded with mentors.

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At the university than I was.

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And honestly, many of

them never did a postdoc.

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They stayed at the university,

maybe did one visiting year

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and then come back to the lab.

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I stayed six years at the Max

Planck and that was too many

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years to come back 'cause I was

disconnected with the local ecosystem.

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Yeah.

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So this is course something I

use in my coaching, how to start

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strategically a research career.

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Don't do it the way I did it.

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It doesn't work.

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You know, it'll be very, very hard

even though there are many ways to

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Rome, but there are ways that you

can make it smoother and easier.

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Mm-hmm.

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And this is some of my executive

coaching I do today with professors,

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particularly young professors.

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So that was my natural talents, I call it.

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It didn't fit.

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And the more I worked in academia,

the more sort of de-energized I got.

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And when you're de-energized, you

are not a very good supervisor.

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Mm-hmm.

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So I wasn't very good in leading my group,

but I was young, I was 35 years old.

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So what can we expect from such

a young person to be able to

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lead a group with no support?

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It's too much.

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Yeah.

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Geri: So it sounds like a very brave

decision, especially in:

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actually say, no, this isn't for me.

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Tina: No, it's not for me, but

for me, maybe it was easy because

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I'm not from an academic family.

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So I come from a family with no

academic track record and they're

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more involved in sales and business.

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So.

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I also think, looking

back, I am a bit like this.

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When thing doesn't work out, I

say, why not try something else?

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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That's maybe why I was a good scientist.

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You know, I'm very open-minded and

curious, so why not test something else?

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Why not go in a completely

different direction trying to

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connect the dots differently?

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So I use a lot of intuition, so my

feeling, if I put it up, my stomach

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feeling when I changed was in order

for me, because it was not easy

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to call around and look for a job

because everyone expected you to stay.

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It was, and I want to

change and pivot completely.

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Okay.

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So I, I get into a completely different

network where I learn sales and

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marketing because that is a skill,

whatever you do in the future.

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It's gonna be very good to have.

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Geri: Mm.

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Tina: At the same time I learned

that I was more interested

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in people maybe in science.

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Yeah.

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Again, as a woman, I was interested

in people, something I really didn't

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know at the time being, but I know

that today and the reason I like to

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go to Germany was that apart from

doing great science, I was in Germany.

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I learned a language, I met new people,

so that was also, you know, my curiosity

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about the new culture and all of that,

that was important in Germany, which

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of course didn't get back when I came

to Sweden because here people were

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not interested in what I've done in

Germany had no interest whatsoever.

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For me, it was how can't you

be interested in what happened

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with me for the six years?

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But I learned that, so I went into sales

and marketing in the recruitment business

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where I could combine people interest.

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Sales and marketing, but I

did something smart here.

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When I got that recruitment job,

I said, I'm going to be the first

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PhD recruiter, so I understand PhDs

that wants to do what I have done.

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You know, they also find it very,

very hard to get a job, but I will

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understand the background and I can

explain it and express it for companies.

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So that was my niche and that was the

only reason I got the job, because

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this company could see that potential.

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Geri: And so you came up with that

as a niche in going and talking to

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the company that gave you the job?

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Mm-hmm.

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That's really interesting.

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That's a really great insight.

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At the intersection of,

you know, like it Yeah.

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You talked about doing

a complete pivot away.

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Yeah.

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But also drawing across some threads.

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Tina: That's Tina Persson.

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This is me.

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I've done it so many times.

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I did it in science.

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But this is also I think, a mindset.

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I have trained myself.

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Mm-hmm.

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I always tell nowadays to my

clients, you must learn to

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see the unseen opportunities.

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We talk about hidden jobs, that one

thing, but unseen is really that

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you connect dots by accumulating

information, connecting new information,

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and draw some conclusions so you can

see things happening in the future.

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That means, what I call it,

you can see around corners.

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So when an opportunity come, you take

it because you already know that might

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that that might be the best option.

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The moment.

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Mm-hmm.

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And that have happened so many

times in my life, and this is that.

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I tend to say I'm somehow a little bit

ahead of my time, which is always for me,

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like I'm always working against the wind.

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Geri: Mm-hmm.

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Tina: You know, because when I was

a first PhD career coach or coach or

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recruiter, that the environment didn't

understand why I took that move.

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But after me, there are many PhD

recruiters and one of my dear friends,

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I spoke with her today, Anna, she was

the second in Sweden and she lives in

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Stockholm and she's still a recruiter.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I inspired her.

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So, so you know, being the first

is hard by that, there will

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always be people that follow.

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Geri: Mm.

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Tina: Yeah.

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And that's how it's been with me.

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Yeah.

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I must admit.

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Yeah.

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Geri: And it's not just the unseen

opportunities, but it's the way in

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which you co-create the opportunity,

in both seeing the potential, the

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unseen, I guess, and also making

it something that can be seen.

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Tina: That can be seen.

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Yeah.

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And that is what I call

your show by doing.

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And for that, I need

to take the first step.

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So being a PhD recruiter, then I learned

not only sales and marketing, but I

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also found another gap That is the

reason that I'm sitting here with you.

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And that is that I had this very

good intention to help and support

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PhDs, postdoc, even professors

and lecturers to transition.

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And I learned they can't sell themself.

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They can't extract their competence.

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Geri: From academia, from

academia into industry context.

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Tina: Exactly.

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They talk, but no one understands and

see the value ? And I say, you know,

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it's great to tell your life story in

academia and all your science, just that

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you need to rephrase it so the company

can see the value, what you offer.

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And that is something I had naturally,

it was easier for me somehow to adapt

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to that, where I could see many of the,

one I tried to recruit to companies

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and in fact, Geri, some companies

called me back and gave me feedback.

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Tina don't send these people

and they're really weird.

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And I said, no, they're not.

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It's just a different language.

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So, so I said, you know, I was

fighting there, but I learned that.

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I learned, okay, I can't sell them.

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So it needs, they need another support.

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I can't give them as a recruiter.

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Uh, and that is slowly then

you can hear moving over to.

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Me doing, oh, you know, I had

three years in between starting

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my company where I said, okay, I

think I need to be a career coach.

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I need to be a coach.

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Mm.

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Because that's the only way I, I

really can help this clientele,

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you know, to figure out what

they want to do in the life.

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Yeah.

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Beyond the academic context.

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And then I figure out I can do it inside.

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So that is another transition based

on information that I gathered eight

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years as a recruiter and consultant

manager, because I stayed, I stayed

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eight years in the corporate world.

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Geri: And how long have you been

then working as the career coach?

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Um, and with your own company?

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Tina: That's another eight years.

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Another eight years.

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Another eight years something.

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Yeah.

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Geri: So I, I do wanna get to actually,

you know, for the professor sitting there

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employing people and picking good people.

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But if you are working with some of

your PhDs who want to move into a

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different sector out of academia.

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Tina: Mm-hmm.

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Geri: How do you talk to

them about communicating so

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that they can connect Yeah.

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To a non-academic audience, to

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Tina: a non non-academic audience.

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That's a process that I call natural

talents that I identify myself.

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It's based on, it's

actually Sarah Blackford.

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Um, she used Holland's theory for a very

analog instrument that many years now.

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And then I know her and I got

it and I saw, oh, that's cool.

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And then AI came Chat GPT.

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Mm-hmm.

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Tina: And then I realized,

Hmm, wait a minute.

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It's not about, we talk a

lot in academia about values.

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They, they get too much of the value.

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They get too much about

strength and weaknesses.

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You don't need to be perfect

on those things because you

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can develop that with time.

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But to sell yourself, if I put it in

that terminology so people understand

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and see the value that lies in

that, you know where you're going.

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So if you take a look on your

natural talents, that's going

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back to what I felt in academia.

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I feel I don't get energy from my job.

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That is, if you use Holland's theory,

which is based on, you know, you can

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take, if you have a practical approach,

hands-on approach, you're being

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maybe more investigative, a bit more

enterprising, a bit more supportive.

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Now a bit more, let's say creative

jobs or administrative job.

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You have sort of a mixture there.

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By knowing, looking back on what

gave you energy doing in the past.

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Mm-hmm.

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You can write a simple diary.

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I can help my clients to translate

that to actually a job field.

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Nice.

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Uh, and this is very easy to do that.

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And by using Chat GPT, it's just amazing

because from that very positive thinking,

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not looking at what I don't like, you

focus 100% of what gives you energy.

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You can learn to communicate even

though you don't know the job.

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You can say, do you know what?

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I'm in academia, you know,

industry much better than I do.

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I can tell you what gives me energy

doing and based on that might be

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you can support me where I fit in.

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Yes.

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Tina: And people love to help you there.

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Because you not look for a job, but you

still look for a job in an indirect way.

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And this is how I help

my client to start with.

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And from there, we can then build

both LinkedIn profiles, we can take

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it to, uh, a resume, a LinkedIn

profile, interviews and et cetera,

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et cetera, building confidence.

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Mm-hmm.

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Tina: And this is a positive way

for a critical mindset, PhD postdoc,

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to move into a positive mindset.

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Talking Yes.

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Positively about, yes.

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Yeah.

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Geri: So when they're at their

best, you know, like when they're

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really energized by their work,

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Tina: where they thrive,

as I say, you are thriving.

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And this is also what professors

listening here, because we become.

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To, to the tips here, but this is

also how they should build the group.

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They need a mixture of people in

the team thriving differently.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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So you have some sort of diversity

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Geri: Yes.

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Tina: In personalities, but not only in

personalities, in their natural talents.

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Yes.

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Which I call drives the motivation.

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Yes.

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And this is a big mistake.

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:

They get too many of the same kind.

379

:

Mm-hmm.

380

:

Geri: So, you know, you said when

you had your group and you didn't

381

:

like writing and the sort of the,

the articles and it sounds like the

382

:

trying to chase the grants and funding.

383

:

Yeah.

384

:

Looking back with what you know

now, do you see a way that you

385

:

may have been able to have used

this sort of natural talents lens?

386

:

Tina: Yeah, absolutely.

387

:

In building a

388

:

Geri: team where you

collectively covered those bases.

389

:

Tina: Yeah, and I was

not that wrong at it.

390

:

It was just a coincidence

here that unfortunately,

391

:

the political landscape

wasn't very healthy.

392

:

It was very toxic environment at the time.

393

:

Um.

394

:

When I started, I very quickly had

sort of a smaller group and I knew my

395

:

strength, uh, in many ways indirectly.

396

:

I, I'm, you know, I'm the one that

get all the new ideas, connect things.

397

:

Mm-hmm.

398

:

Then there was a woman, Sophia, her

name was, she was extremely good

399

:

in writing and structure things.

400

:

So we started to collaborate

and that worked amazingly.

401

:

Mm.

402

:

Tina: One day it stopped and I have sort

of a feeling that was some political power

403

:

in the house disconnecting us to women.

404

:

Mm.

405

:

'cause we were very successful.

406

:

So if you Google Tina Persson and Sophia,

you will find many articles what we did.

407

:

Mm.

408

:

And

409

:

Tina: when I look back on

it, I think, wow, we did that

410

:

in that short time period.

411

:

Really groundbreaking.

412

:

Yeah.

413

:

Uh, but you know, this is again, that

we were strong together, but the system

414

:

in academia is don't work together.

415

:

You should promote yourself.

416

:

Yeah.

417

:

And, and this is so degenerating because

that also creates researchers like PhDs

418

:

and postdocs, young research being too

independent, thinking about themself so

419

:

they don't get this sort of team ability,

you know, work collaborative in a team.

420

:

Yeah.

421

:

Which is the only thing

companies look at, because if

422

:

you can't be in a team, you know?

423

:

Yes.

424

:

Geri: And it's also, I mean,

as you indicated working with

425

:

Sophie, it's not just additive.

426

:

You bring your two pieces of what you are

good at, and she brings her two pieces.

427

:

There's something more that happens.

428

:

There's a, there's a synergy and

an extra energy boost, you know,

429

:

with the collective that, um,

430

:

Tina: collective comes from that.

431

:

So, I could put it this way, if anyone

listening here and whether you are sitting

432

:

inside academia trying to, you know, fight

yourself through the academic context or.

433

:

You in industry and you feel that

you're stuck and you're frustrated.

434

:

It might be that you haven't sort of

grounded yourself in the ecosystem.

435

:

Uh, and for that is what

we call in industry.

436

:

You need to have a strong ability

in emotional intelligence, which

437

:

means that building relationships,

motivating people, social skills.

438

:

Yeah, yeah.

439

:

And ability to recruit the right

people, and communicate in a right way.

440

:

Yeah.

441

:

Many people make their manager their

enemy, and I said, it's not very smart

442

:

because you have to collaborate with your

manager, learn to collaborate with us.

443

:

So, because no one's gonna

promote you if they don't see

444

:

the value of working with you.

445

:

Yeah.

446

:

And that is both in and at the university.

447

:

Yeah.

448

:

Geri: And you want them to

promote you in line with what

449

:

you're energized by as well.

450

:

Yeah.

451

:

So how do you communicate that?

452

:

Tina: How do you communicate?

453

:

Well, I can't sit here and do teaching.

454

:

If you take that I'm not teaching.

455

:

For me, I wasn't particularly interested,

but I can be on stage to sell things.

456

:

It's two different things.

457

:

So I should have had a completely

different job inside Academia, but I

458

:

could have started to get, you know, I got

my Docent and from there, most likely I

459

:

should have moved into more, more external

affairs, external or something like.

460

:

Geri: That's, and that's the value

of, of, um, the earlier we can get a

461

:

sense of what our natural talents are.

462

:

Absolutely.

463

:

The more we can think about what are the

different possibilities that will enable

464

:

those talents to to to blossom, to grow.

465

:

Yeah.

466

:

Yeah.

467

:

It's early.

468

:

Independent of the title

of the role that you're in.

469

:

Tina: It's so important.

470

:

Uh, I have been prepared a

little bit for this podcast,

471

:

so I wrote something down here.

472

:

And that is that you should, when you are

a professor and, and you're recruiting

473

:

people, you know, it is very important

that from the day you get a new PhD or

474

:

new postdoc, that they start early on

or you start early on to support them

475

:

in the career development, whether,

you know, and that's another point

476

:

for the reason they have come to you.

477

:

So that means that this is extremely

important in an environment where you have

478

:

so much of temporary positions mm-hmm.

479

:

That they get an early support so

you can build psychological safety.

480

:

Mm-hmm.

481

:

And psychological safety is there,

so it's, you can be open to discuss

482

:

different career trajectory.

483

:

Not only that, you should stay in academia

also, that it is okay to leave because it

484

:

is, when you are open discussing this, you

will probably succeed to retain the ones

485

:

you want because they feel more secure.

486

:

Mm.

487

:

Tina: Yeah.

488

:

Because the more they know about their

options, the more secure they will

489

:

feel and the better, more efficient

people will work in your group.

490

:

Yeah.

491

:

And I've been coaching Geri, so many

PhDs and postdocs that I would put it

492

:

this way, it's absolutely impossible.

493

:

They can't be efficient considering

how worried they are about the future.

494

:

Yes.

495

:

And how little

496

:

Geri: Especially when we have so many

shorter term contracts so that, yeah.

497

:

So I wanna pick up on this point

again about supporting, um, early

498

:

careers in their ongoing career.

499

:

You know, like your employment of them

as being part of that career journey

500

:

for them and how you can support them

in the time that you have contact.

501

:

But one of the questions that I get

asked all the time, and I don't have

502

:

a great answer always, um, is how,

you know, people always struggle

503

:

with recruiting the right people

or good people and you, so they're

504

:

always looking for tips and tricks.

505

:

So given your background, both

in the recruiting business and in

506

:

supporting people in the coaching,

507

:

mm.

508

:

Tina: I would say,

509

:

Geri: What would you

say to young professors?

510

:

Yeah, young professors who are recruiting

PhD students or postdocs or whatever.

511

:

Tina: Yep.

512

:

It really depends where they

are in their academic career.

513

:

If you have young professors, they

have funding, you know, limited

514

:

funding, they need a really sharp

strategy, you know, a sharp strategy.

515

:

Uh, and there when you grow,

you have more and more funding.

516

:

You can be more strategic.

517

:

Uh, and there is also room to

fail, if I put it that way.

518

:

With recruitment.

519

:

Yes.

520

:

When you are a young researcher,

there is no room one PhD student

521

:

that doesn't deliver a post.

522

:

It could be the end or the beginning,

you know, of your career basically.

523

:

So, so there you have to

be very, very cautious.

524

:

But I have some certain tips.

525

:

Uh, but before doing that, I'm gonna.

526

:

Just frame some sort of quote that I

wrote down here for all professor, whether

527

:

you are young or old, uh, or you are

established, not old, that's, that was

528

:

translating Swedish to English that is

more established professor was aside.

529

:

But that is, and I, first of all, and, and

I say this because I've been coaching many

530

:

professor among some of the Karolinska

Institute and in Germany, Max Planck, that

531

:

is that professors strive for permanent

jobs and, and they are afraid to tell

532

:

their PhDs and post up the truth or the

reality because they want to be nice

533

:

and they want to offer them security.

534

:

And that's the wrong

start from the beginning.

535

:

So I would like to put it like

this, uh, it's a quote I wrote

536

:

before for this podcast here.

537

:

It's not about offering job security,

it's about offering career security.

538

:

Mm-hmm.

539

:

Candidates will commit to your project

if they know you're serious about helping

540

:

them grow and land well afterward.

541

:

Geri: Mm-hmm.

542

:

Tina: And this is where I tell,

and I'm gonna tell you what I

543

:

tell postdocs and PhDs when they

say, Tina, I want to do postdoc.

544

:

I want to start the PhD.

545

:

What professor should I choose?

546

:

So Geri, what advice do

you think I give them?

547

:

Well, it's a very simple one.

548

:

Today we have social

media, we have LinkedIn.

549

:

They can find a lot of information there.

550

:

Yep.

551

:

So I say you should go to a group where

you can see the people that left the

552

:

group, how they succeeded afterwards, what

did they do after the post, or how many

553

:

professors have that professor generated?

554

:

How many people in industry

has that professor generated?

555

:

So if you take my postdoc dad,

Fritz Eckstein at the Max Planck,

556

:

I checked his list and they all in

industry, apart from some, they were

557

:

extremely successful in academia.

558

:

So that probably was a good chance that.

559

:

I would succeed as well.

560

:

So when we are in these times where

you have mental health issues,

561

:

you can Google these information.

562

:

Geri: Mm.

563

:

Tina: You can find this information

and LinkedIn and ResearchGate

564

:

or other networks, you can

actually check your professor.

565

:

You, you look, look, look.

566

:

Watch them up.

567

:

Yeah.

568

:

And when I tell that to professors,

is this the tip you give?

569

:

Yes.

570

:

Wow.

571

:

It's not good.

572

:

No.

573

:

That's why you need to be

on social media to show off.

574

:

This is my lab, this is my people.

575

:

So they have all the names of

your laboratory people, and then

576

:

they can contact them and ask

how is it to work in that group?

577

:

This is how you show your brand.

578

:

And it's not about policing all the time.

579

:

It's to make them successful.

580

:

Doesn't mean that you always agree

with them, but you know that you have

581

:

this sort of, this is what companies

have learned and this is what they call

582

:

talent development, talent attraction,

talent recruitment, and this is coming

583

:

to academia as well as really important.

584

:

So for that reason, I think

that is step number one.

585

:

You have to think when you recruit

today, okay, I'm a young researcher.

586

:

What do I actually need to

save my next three years?

587

:

Because if you go to universities

in United States, you don't have

588

:

more than three years, then you

must support your own salary.

589

:

So you need to be extremely strategic.

590

:

So I would put it that way.

591

:

You have my tip one is adapt

to your funding reality.

592

:

So if you have three years,

it's important that you are

593

:

clear with, I have three years.

594

:

And, we never know what

happened after that.

595

:

Yeah.

596

:

But bring in the people that are

curious, open-minded, and that can live

597

:

with, that you have tight deadlines

and that you need publications.

598

:

'cause that's what you're gonna tell them.

599

:

I need publications, only publications

that are gonna take us further.

600

:

And that you hire people that you

are guiding very strongly, that have

601

:

the technical skills that you need.

602

:

You know, maybe more hands on postdocs or

PhDs that produce your science basically.

603

:

This sounds weird, but this is maybe

a tip you need to consider when

604

:

you are a very young researcher.

605

:

Geri: So the realities of the

funding and it's about the.

606

:

What you need from the position.

607

:

Tina: Yeah.

608

:

Geri: Both in terms of

outputs and the inputs.

609

:

In terms of skills.

610

:

Yeah.

611

:

Yeah.

612

:

And, and in that, you know, if we

take your, um, supporting their, their

613

:

career security, it's also talking to

them and the about how those also fit

614

:

and support their trajectory as well.

615

:

In that.

616

:

Yeah.

617

:

Tina: In this, in this

case, it's harder here.

618

:

You have to be clear with that.

619

:

If, if you come to my lab.

620

:

This is what I need from you.

621

:

You know, I, I understand that some

professors, it's very hard to say that I'm

622

:

going to, it feels like I'm using them.

623

:

Yeah.

624

:

But you have to see it

from two perspectives here.

625

:

You need them to produce your

science so you can publish that.

626

:

That's honest.

627

:

Yeah.

628

:

And you give them an opportunity

to learn your science that

629

:

they can take to the next step.

630

:

Geri: Mm-hmm.

631

:

Tina: Yeah.

632

:

That you need to be honest with, I have

three years, so it's better that you come

633

:

and we focus on what you can learn and

publications and then early on start to

634

:

tell them that you know, now it's one

year, two years left, or one year left.

635

:

What's your plan?

636

:

Because you know, so you early on

start with them and telling them

637

:

that you know, you need to look what

you are doing after, because this is

638

:

also how you can use your network.

639

:

Yeah.

640

:

Maybe you can help them to another group.

641

:

Or you start saying maybe, you know, you

should look around what industry offers.

642

:

Geri: Mm-hmm.

643

:

Tina: So this is to be

very open with that.

644

:

You know, you have limited

resources to keep them.

645

:

Unfortunately, some professors,

they're so afraid to lose or

646

:

drop the best post docs and PhDs.

647

:

So they are living on

the hope so very late.

648

:

They know that I can't support you,

and then, you know, there's not

649

:

enough time for the PhD and the

poster to look around and orient

650

:

themself and explore other options.

651

:

Mm-hmm.

652

:

So stay honest in, in,

in, in this perspective.

653

:

Geri: Yeah.

654

:

That honesty is really critical.

655

:

Tina: Mm.

656

:

Geri: And it still leaves open the

space for that discussion within

657

:

that honest framework about these

are the practical constraints, what

658

:

I need, um, what you can deliver.

659

:

And it, there's hopefully still scope

for that discussion that says, yeah.

660

:

Where we have some room to make decisions

or to shape what actually gets done.

661

:

Yeah, absolutely.

662

:

What would work towards your

career trajectory, whether

663

:

it's here or somewhere else?

664

:

Tina: Honestly, this discussion is not

more strange than in a company, a startup.

665

:

Mm-hmm.

666

:

You know, if, if you go back, you know,

you, you're gonna start a little company.

667

:

And they say, you know, I want

a permanent job in your, yeah.

668

:

I can't offer that.

669

:

I say, no, no.

670

:

This is a startup and I, I can keep

it as long as we have money in the

671

:

company and people are happy to join.

672

:

Mm-hmm.

673

:

And now I'm coming back to

what I said and framing.

674

:

It's not about uh, job security,

it's about career, security.

675

:

Career.

676

:

Yeah.

677

:

Because if you go to a lab and you

say, you know, God, you know, she

678

:

doesn't have money or he doesn't have

money, this young professor, but I will

679

:

learn fantastic and amazing skills.

680

:

And if I use my time wisely,

collaborating, networking, I secure

681

:

my career because I'm learning.

682

:

So this is part of lifelong learning.

683

:

So your expectation is on that level.

684

:

This is where I tell people,

leaving academia, do you know what?

685

:

You shouldn't look for job

security because that will stop

686

:

you in the next five years.

687

:

You should take a job where you may

be risk being unemployed again in two

688

:

years, but you learn critical skills,

so you are building your career.

689

:

Hmm.

690

:

By learning new skills.

691

:

Hmm.

692

:

So actually job security

can be a false security.

693

:

Geri: Yes.

694

:

Tina: Because you, you know,

you stop learning and this is

695

:

what academia could be seen at.

696

:

Mm.

697

:

If you have you as a

professor, it's just open.

698

:

You know, this is my scientific group.

699

:

I'm very young.

700

:

It's very new.

701

:

It's like a startup.

702

:

Geri: I like that analogy of it

being a startup, because it, it also

703

:

reminds you that there's a sense

of energy and enthusiasm about the

704

:

work that you're doing because it's

a startup and you don't quite know.

705

:

No.

706

:

But yeah, the, the contributing to

potentially making something great.

707

:

Tina: Yep.

708

:

Of, of course.

709

:

It's the potential.

710

:

Yeah.

711

:

So, and that is the same, you

know, what we need more of in

712

:

Europe to take a risk mm-hmm.

713

:

Instead of looking for

the security all the time.

714

:

Yeah.

715

:

Yeah.

716

:

And that comes back to, you know, I

just take that again, that be honest

717

:

as a professor when you recruit Yeah.

718

:

Because if you have, you can be tough

as a leader, that's good, but you

719

:

have it with a big heart and that

you mean that, you know, if you come

720

:

here, you will learn certain things.

721

:

Yeah.

722

:

And that in any way can take you forward.

723

:

Yeah.

724

:

Yeah.

725

:

Geri: So how do, how do you actually

engage in a conversation at, say

726

:

a job interview with someone?

727

:

Because you've got the CV where you

may be able to see that yes, they do

728

:

have those technical skills I need.

729

:

But you also talked about, um, the

emotional intelligence skills and the

730

:

relationship skills and so on that, you

know, I know that we're talking about for

731

:

professors, but I think everyone needs

in terms of the working relationships,

732

:

do you have any tips for, um, people who

are recruiting PhDs or postdocs about

733

:

how to pull out the stories that might

help you understand more of where they're

734

:

coming from, from those sorts of skills?

735

:

Or also what might be their more natural

talents that you know, you, you may

736

:

be able to sort of help develop them.

737

:

Yeah.

738

:

Tina: Help them to develop them, you know?

739

:

Yeah.

740

:

They're usually so young when

they are PhDs and postdocs, so

741

:

it's always a little bit harder.

742

:

But an advice that I give is that try

not only to look on the technical skills

743

:

Geri: mm-hmm.

744

:

Tina: But also try to figure out

what drives the motivation they

745

:

have and, and future perspectives.

746

:

Uh, of course if you ask

standard questions, they, oh

747

:

yeah, I'm gonna be a professor.

748

:

But if you are on the interview

saying, do you know what, um,

749

:

that's not important for me.

750

:

If you want to be professor, go to

industry because they please you.

751

:

They tell you, of course I'm gonna

stay in academia, but now that's not

752

:

what I'm interested in to know if

you are gonna choose, because you

753

:

know, many things can happen in life.

754

:

I am interested in what

you can offer in my lab.

755

:

Mm.

756

:

Yeah.

757

:

So you turn around and check how many

has actually read about my science.

758

:

Mm.

759

:

So you can ask these questions that

you more figure out, okay, how much do

760

:

they know about what I do and the value

they think they can bring to what I do?

761

:

Mm-hmm.

762

:

And what if, if you want to do something

different in my life, what could that be?

763

:

And I would challenge professors when

they recruit to have these more tricky

764

:

storytelling questions where they have

to use their creativity very early on.

765

:

You know, where you can actually,

in one interview focus on technical

766

:

skills and in the next one more

on innovation and creativity.

767

:

So then you recruit different

people and that you let them

768

:

record a video, for example.

769

:

Or if someone like to write, because

they are good, some are good on on

770

:

recording, some are good on writing,

but it could be good to let them

771

:

record so you get a picture of them.

772

:

This is what I think, you know.

773

:

Instead of having, you know, taking

industry interviews to science, I

774

:

think that should develop a different

way of selecting the candidates.

775

:

Mm-hmm.

776

:

That, that's, as I see it.

777

:

Yeah.

778

:

I stand up.

779

:

Well, that's the weakness.

780

:

It doesn't make sense

for a PhD in a postdoc.

781

:

It is what they can offer in that

set, particularly postdocs, you know?

782

:

Okay.

783

:

Have you read what I'm doing?

784

:

What my son, what, what, what do you see?

785

:

What, what value can they add in?

786

:

What would you like to do?

787

:

Mm, yeah.

788

:

Geri: Mm-hmm.

789

:

Tina: Particularly if you want

an, a postdoc as they call them.

790

:

You know, the ones that are maybe

very innovative and like to be

791

:

independent and all of them.

792

:

It's very,

793

:

Geri: so almost sort of looking for some

energy detection about when do they,

794

:

what do they get excited about or, yeah.

795

:

Even if they can't name it in

that way because they are younger.

796

:

Tina: No, no, no, no.

797

:

They can't name it.

798

:

But you, you, you would figure it out

by listening to them if they have,

799

:

you know, or if they are a very good.

800

:

Uh, as I had in my lab, extremely

technical, skilled postdoc that maybe

801

:

not very innovative, but can really run

the experiments because particularly

802

:

in natural science, you had a lot of

routine experiments that needs to be done.

803

:

Mm.

804

:

She was absolutely fabulous doing that.

805

:

Yeah.

806

:

And that is also some driver

was of course a drive for her.

807

:

Mm-hmm.

808

:

, To go to the lab and, you know,

do a lot of the same experiments.

809

:

Yeah.

810

:

And then extract the information.

811

:

So, so this is also something

that it's not so tricky to ask

812

:

that this is how I would like to

challenge the professors to do it.

813

:

Geri: Mm-hmm.

814

:

I really liked also the thing about

815

:

not just relying on sort of it's

face-to-face interview, but just

816

:

recognizing that people can shine in

different ways and writing might be

817

:

easier or recording a video beforehand

that they can think about a bit more.

818

:

So that also recognizes that not everyone

is as good at performing in the moment.

819

:

Tina: No.

820

:

No, they're not.

821

:

Geri: They're not.

822

:

But um, there's also the challenge,

you know, I know that a recent job, uh,

823

:

advertisement that at the university I

know attracted about 150 applications

824

:

and, the challenge and another one

actually multiple hundreds, I know

825

:

that we wanna get down to actually

being able to have these conversations

826

:

and get to the storytelling.

827

:

Any tips for that recruit?

828

:

Absolutely.

829

:

Filtering phase.

830

:

It's a funnel that's, that's a

really hard phase to how do you,

831

:

Tina: How I do that?

832

:

I heard about that a lot as a recruiter

because, you know, for me it was

833

:

like organizing the cvs was not

always the perfect way of doing it.

834

:

I would put it this way.

835

:

Today we have AI, you can use

ChatGPT if you just want to

836

:

organize the, the, the cv.

837

:

But that's not optimal.

838

:

So yeah, I helped the professor in

United States and she had 150 resumes.

839

:

I think, see and as I, and it's not

very efficient of you to sit there

840

:

so that you go back with the mail

to all of them and let them record

841

:

a video and not complicate it.

842

:

Just why they apply what they want.

843

:

You know, simp three questions

and they just answer these

844

:

three questions with a video.

845

:

And then we to together constructed

six questions so they could write

846

:

an answer, only that action.

847

:

And then she had only 20 left.

848

:

Oh, okay.

849

:

And that means that the rest,

they didn't put, they didn't

850

:

put the energy in replying.

851

:

So how interested are you when you don't

Mm take the work of recording and writing.

852

:

So then she was down to 20 and 20

people, you could actually start

853

:

to organize and start to call.

854

:

So

855

:

Geri: do you mean out of

the 150, only 20 came back?

856

:

Tina: Yeah.

857

:

Yeah.

858

:

Geri: Wow.

859

:

What a lot of wasted energy.

860

:

'cause that means that

130 people were just Yeah.

861

:

Taking a chance and throwing out

multiple CVs throwing out multi.

862

:

Tina: Yeah.

863

:

That's how it is.

864

:

Yeah.

865

:

And we know that in industry as well.

866

:

That's an interesting model.

867

:

No, no, it's an industry the same.

868

:

Mm.

869

:

So, and then what I did as a recruiter

and spend a lot of time doing is the

870

:

next thing is they call them, and this

is maybe also with some professors, they

871

:

prefer to send emails, but you have to

be careful because you can use ChatGPT.

872

:

It looks really good in an email,

but it's not, it's ChatGPT or

873

:

DeepSeek or whatever they call it

now that actually raise the email.

874

:

So the best thing, you can book

a Zoom meeting or short call

875

:

with three questions, not more.

876

:

Uh, it takes maybe 15 minutes

per call and you get a very good

877

:

sense of, you know, the person.

878

:

Geri: Mm-hmm.

879

:

Tina: That's worth it.

880

:

That's worth it.

881

:

Mm.

882

:

And then you're down easily to five.

883

:

Mm-hmm.

884

:

Geri: And then you can

bring in those last Yeah.

885

:

Pool of candidates for

the face, face-to-face and

886

:

the lab visits and things.

887

:

Tina: Yeah.

888

:

Mm, so, so, so this is something,

and I talk with my good friend,

889

:

Ana, when she's recruiting.

890

:

Now she's working in an isolated

field, so she says, I know many of the

891

:

clients, but she also emphasized the

importance of, of talking and listening

892

:

and see people, particularly in the time

where you can basically use ChatGPT.

893

:

So even though you are writing a

question, they will start to use ChatGPT.

894

:

So it looks really good,

but it's not the person that

895

:

actually constructed the answer.

896

:

Geri: Yeah.

897

:

Well that's interesting the way

that ChatGPT, and equivalent

898

:

tools are challenging a lot of

our processes and procedures.

899

:

Tina: Yeah.

900

:

Geri: And just the nature

of scientific work.

901

:

But then that's another,

yeah, that's another topic.

902

:

Whole issue.

903

:

Yeah.

904

:

Tina: Yeah.

905

:

So I would put it this way, that

you should deep dive in interviews.

906

:

And go beyond the skills.

907

:

And with that I was like,

you know, explore their why.

908

:

Mm-hmm.

909

:

How they think about the future, what kind

of team environment they would thrive in.

910

:

And you know, are they looking

for a stepping stone or a growth?

911

:

You know, is this a stepping stone

for an academic career or what

912

:

kind of stepping stone is it?

913

:

Geri: Mm-hmm.

914

:

Tina: Yeah.

915

:

This is, you know, digging a

little bit deeper in the interview.

916

:

Yeah.

917

:

Geri: Yeah.

918

:

Any particular tips on how to

explore those questions with people?

919

:

Like how do you explore their why, what,

what sort of questions might you ask them?

920

:

Tina: Yeah.

921

:

In academia it is sort of, if it's a

PhD position, it's a standard questions.

922

:

You know, what do you hope to learn?

923

:

Mm-hmm.

924

:

From a PhD and what are you

gonna do with those learnings?

925

:

Have they thought about it?

926

:

It seems to be a simple

question, but it's not.

927

:

Geri: Mm-hmm.

928

:

Tina: Many start the PhD because

it's a logical step after Master's.

929

:

Yes.

930

:

Yeah.

931

:

And they don't get the job

after the master, so they start,

932

:

and that's perfectly fine.

933

:

But you know, if they say, yeah, you know,

see if they did it to be honest and it.

934

:

Yeah, I, I don't know.

935

:

I just applied.

936

:

I thought the topic was good.

937

:

Okay.

938

:

Okay.

939

:

Mm-hmm.

940

:

But what do you know about my topic then?

941

:

Mm-hmm.

942

:

I have a very, you gave a very good

idea how much they actually know.

943

:

Geri: Mm.

944

:

Tina: And I can share with you, Geri,

when I applied for postdoc for Fritz

945

:

Eckstein, I didn't know what he was doing.

946

:

So Fritz called me and asked

these questions, say, I really

947

:

don't know, but I know one thing.

948

:

I don't want to do organic chemistry,

but I want to go lab where the professor

949

:

know organic chemistry and know how

to transition to molecule biology.

950

:

That was the only thing I knew Fritz

said, well, that's the right place though.

951

:

But I didn't know his science, you know,

I learned it when I came, but mm-hmm.

952

:

That could be an explanation.

953

:

Mm-hmm.

954

:

So it doesn't mean that they have to be an

expert, but understand the why, you know?

955

:

Yeah.

956

:

What do you hope to learn from a PhD?

957

:

What was the reason for you to

apply for this particular position?

958

:

What do you hope to do after your PhD?

959

:

Just to hear how the answer.

960

:

Geri: Mm-hmm.

961

:

And that points to the importance

of honesty on both sides.

962

:

Yeah.

963

:

Like, you know, as you said before, you

can give the answers that people Yeah.

964

:

That you think they expect

to hear or that might Yeah.

965

:

Get you the job, but then you've

gotta get in and do the job.

966

:

And if you've lied or if you've

misrepresented what you care

967

:

about or what your why is,

and there is a basic mismatch.

968

:

Yeah.

969

:

That's.

970

:

It's scary.

971

:

This is not a very wise decision.

972

:

Tina: No, it's not wise.

973

:

And this is where I coach my Yeah.

974

:

PhD for a job in industry.

975

:

They are sitting googling

what the perfect answer is.

976

:

And I say it's not a very good

start because that is not you.

977

:

You have to be honest.

978

:

You must say.

979

:

Well, I don't know.

980

:

Or you can say, oh,

that's a good question.

981

:

I have no clue actually.

982

:

And you know, do you know what?

983

:

I just applied, I applied for so

many jobs, so, uh, and I applied,

984

:

but I'm so happy to be invited.

985

:

And before the interview

I checked your company.

986

:

That's perfectly fine.

987

:

It just shows that you had high

activity and didn't really have

988

:

time to check all the job ads.

989

:

Geri: Mm-hmm.

990

:

Tina: It's not a single person,

they wouldn't understand that.

991

:

But it is about, you know, being

honest about why you do it.

992

:

And, but that is also what professors

then need to have in mind to have fun.

993

:

So if they say, do you know what

applied for 50 academic jobs?

994

:

You are one of them, but I'm desperate.

995

:

I want to do a PhD

because of, you know, yes.

996

:

That's also way of standing out, you know?

997

:

Geri: Do you see any differences,

you know, you talked about,

998

:

um, coaching or working with

people in different countries.

999

:

Do you see any differences,

particularly across countries?

:

00:51:02,947 --> 00:51:05,107

Tina: Oh yeah, it's big

culture differences.

:

00:51:05,857 --> 00:51:06,127

Yeah.

:

00:51:06,187 --> 00:51:09,697

Europe, it has differences

between the, the countries.

:

00:51:09,697 --> 00:51:13,537

I would say, uh, United States is

different, even though the Western

:

00:51:13,537 --> 00:51:15,157

world, I would say is very similar.

:

00:51:15,457 --> 00:51:19,087

But then you have the big continent,

India, you know, and you have the

:

00:51:19,087 --> 00:51:21,007

Asian world is very, very different.

:

00:51:22,137 --> 00:51:24,807

How you perceive, you know, and

how you want to present yourself.

:

00:51:24,867 --> 00:51:24,897

Mm.

:

00:51:25,557 --> 00:51:30,417

Also, how you want to, you know, be maybe

led and, and how you phrase and that

:

00:51:30,417 --> 00:51:35,307

is closely connected to a topic that we

need to discuss more in the future maybe.

:

00:51:35,307 --> 00:51:36,747

And that is the title.

:

00:51:37,017 --> 00:51:40,407

In some countries like Sweden,

the title is not important.

:

00:51:40,677 --> 00:51:41,727

It can be disadvantage.

:

00:51:42,777 --> 00:51:45,807

You can use your title, which

you mean like doctor, doctor.

:

00:51:45,807 --> 00:51:49,287

I have doctor on my LinkedIn and

when I'm in Sweden, they comment

:

00:51:49,287 --> 00:51:53,727

that every time and I say I have

it because I work internationally.

:

00:51:53,967 --> 00:51:54,747

Yeah, okay.

:

00:51:54,747 --> 00:51:59,157

They say, but if it was so that

I wanted to brand myself and look

:

00:51:59,157 --> 00:52:03,267

for a job in Sweden, it absolutely

necessary I remove the title.

:

00:52:03,957 --> 00:52:03,987

Geri: Okay.

:

00:52:04,227 --> 00:52:04,467

Tina: Yeah.

:

00:52:04,767 --> 00:52:09,297

And this is important when I career

coach people in Sweden that could you

:

00:52:09,297 --> 00:52:11,847

please stop talking about your title?

:

00:52:11,847 --> 00:52:17,277

It's not an advantage, you know, here you

go in and you need to be one in the team.

:

00:52:17,992 --> 00:52:22,012

And it doesn't matter what title

you have, your expertise you have,

:

00:52:22,072 --> 00:52:26,182

if people don't want to work with

you, you will not move forward.

:

00:52:26,242 --> 00:52:26,512

Yeah.

:

00:52:26,572 --> 00:52:28,582

So forget your title at the moment.

:

00:52:28,582 --> 00:52:28,672

Yeah.

:

00:52:28,672 --> 00:52:30,502

You have to to show it differently.

:

00:52:30,502 --> 00:52:30,592

Mm-hmm.

:

00:52:30,862 --> 00:52:34,282

Whereas you go to Germany,

title is no problem, France.

:

00:52:34,282 --> 00:52:34,912

No problem.

:

00:52:35,332 --> 00:52:40,402

So you sort of, there you need it,

but it's even more important in India.

:

00:52:41,092 --> 00:52:41,482

Geri: Mm.

:

00:52:42,292 --> 00:52:43,042

A title.

:

00:52:43,312 --> 00:52:43,942

Tina: A title.

:

00:52:44,032 --> 00:52:44,362

Yeah.

:

00:52:45,142 --> 00:52:48,562

So, so, so there we have

differences in, in the coaching

:

00:52:48,562 --> 00:52:49,852

and how we present ourself.

:

00:52:49,912 --> 00:52:50,002

Mm-hmm.

:

00:52:50,422 --> 00:52:55,702

But I think if you look in the future

and now coming to something that I

:

00:52:55,702 --> 00:52:59,932

think also academia are going to be very

important, but we haven't discussed so

:

00:52:59,932 --> 00:53:07,012

much about, and that is that when we

introduce AI In both science or in career

:

00:53:07,012 --> 00:53:12,832

coaching or in industry, I think it

was McKinsey or PWC They found a study.

:

00:53:13,372 --> 00:53:18,472

Uh, they did a study where they could

show that it took very young consultancies

:

00:53:18,952 --> 00:53:21,352

and older ones experienced one.

:

00:53:21,742 --> 00:53:29,662

And when allowed to use AI, the gap in

skill and knowledge became always equal.

:

00:53:30,292 --> 00:53:30,517

Geri: Mm mm

:

00:53:31,042 --> 00:53:35,932

Tina: That means that you can, with

the right use of AI compensate.

:

00:53:36,667 --> 00:53:41,167

With that said means that you can

have a PhD title, you can have an ex

:

00:53:41,887 --> 00:53:46,687

high exam from the academic world,

but since people can use AI, they

:

00:53:46,687 --> 00:53:48,547

can very well start to compensate.

:

00:53:48,817 --> 00:53:48,907

Mm-hmm.

:

00:53:49,147 --> 00:53:53,407

So PhDs need to use

this skills differently.

:

00:53:53,737 --> 00:53:56,077

And this is also what I

introduced to my coaching, you

:

00:53:56,077 --> 00:53:58,177

know, be more critical mindset.

:

00:53:58,327 --> 00:53:58,927

Geri: Mm-hmm.

:

00:53:59,407 --> 00:54:05,107

Tina: Analyzing, connecting the dots,

coming from a different perspective there.

:

00:54:05,587 --> 00:54:07,747

And that is what we call

transferable skills.

:

00:54:07,987 --> 00:54:08,527

Geri: Mm-hmm.

:

00:54:10,417 --> 00:54:16,117

That's interesting about the different

challenges now that AI is both

:

00:54:16,297 --> 00:54:18,487

leveling the, leveling the field a bit.

:

00:54:18,487 --> 00:54:18,637

Yeah.

:

00:54:18,667 --> 00:54:24,957

And also making different

skills, um, more important.

:

00:54:25,317 --> 00:54:25,677

Tina: Yeah.

:

00:54:25,947 --> 00:54:26,712

It is human skills.

:

00:54:26,902 --> 00:54:28,072

It's the human skills.

:

00:54:28,317 --> 00:54:33,147

And I say we go from, with the

help of AI, our human skills.

:

00:54:33,147 --> 00:54:33,237

Geri: Mm-hmm.

:

00:54:34,047 --> 00:54:36,177

Tina: Gonna be more important than ever.

:

00:54:36,177 --> 00:54:36,267

Mm-hmm.

:

00:54:36,267 --> 00:54:39,027

And that is what we are

not training in academia.

:

00:54:39,117 --> 00:54:39,357

Geri: Mm-hmm.

:

00:54:39,777 --> 00:54:40,047

Tina: Yeah.

:

00:54:40,047 --> 00:54:42,297

So here we also have is a gap.

:

00:54:42,357 --> 00:54:45,087

Uh, so human-centric skills.

:

00:54:45,207 --> 00:54:45,627

Mm-hmm.

:

00:54:45,777 --> 00:54:47,967

It's gonna be very, very

important to develop.

:

00:54:47,967 --> 00:54:49,557

Geri: I totally agree.

:

00:54:49,857 --> 00:54:50,967

So important.

:

00:54:51,597 --> 00:54:56,727

Um, because human-centric skills are

at the core of what you said about

:

00:54:56,757 --> 00:55:03,087

once you've employed your PhD student

or your postdoc, the focus then on

:

00:55:03,177 --> 00:55:08,007

how do you work with them to plan

and manage their career path so that

:

00:55:08,007 --> 00:55:11,907

this is about secure, um, career.

:

00:55:12,027 --> 00:55:15,027

You know, like helping

them learn and develop.

:

00:55:15,507 --> 00:55:15,627

Yeah.

:

00:55:15,627 --> 00:55:20,907

So that, that needs skills to know how

to have that conversation very early.

:

00:55:21,177 --> 00:55:24,777

Very early, and work out what's

learning and development for this

:

00:55:24,777 --> 00:55:26,697

person and where do they wanna go to.

:

00:55:27,057 --> 00:55:29,247

Tina: And you know, something.

:

00:55:29,592 --> 00:55:34,392

I discussed with some of my clients

that they say, you know, I have a post

:

00:55:34,542 --> 00:55:36,792

that dreaming of an academic career.

:

00:55:36,972 --> 00:55:37,242

Geri: Mm.

:

00:55:37,332 --> 00:55:39,737

Tina: And you know, there could

be many reasons behind it.

:

00:55:39,737 --> 00:55:43,692

It could be family reasons,

it could be status reasons.

:

00:55:43,692 --> 00:55:47,382

It could be that they have been

dreaming of it like me, you know, and

:

00:55:47,382 --> 00:55:52,452

then, you know, but he, it's no why

this person got to be able to perform

:

00:55:53,022 --> 00:55:56,442

an academic career, at least not in

this country, not this institute.

:

00:55:56,532 --> 00:56:00,192

Because that's simple, not

those skills, you know?

:

00:56:00,192 --> 00:56:01,302

Mm-hmm.

:

00:56:01,303 --> 00:56:06,192

Because a successful professor today, they

need a, you know, human centric skills.

:

00:56:06,192 --> 00:56:06,522

Yes.

:

00:56:06,522 --> 00:56:10,032

But they need basically to run

their own company, you know, they

:

00:56:10,032 --> 00:56:11,652

need to be very enterprising.

:

00:56:12,657 --> 00:56:18,927

And enterprising contact that I'm able

to network and connect with people and

:

00:56:18,927 --> 00:56:20,937

to understand where is the world going?

:

00:56:20,937 --> 00:56:23,127

Where is the next funding opportunity?

:

00:56:23,457 --> 00:56:27,867

And if, if you don't have that sort

of, then it will be very challenging.

:

00:56:27,867 --> 00:56:30,957

But you can still stay in academia,

but at another level maybe.

:

00:56:30,982 --> 00:56:31,302

Geri: Mm-hmm.

:

00:56:31,497 --> 00:56:31,677

Tina: Yeah.

:

00:56:31,737 --> 00:56:31,977

Yeah.

:

00:56:31,977 --> 00:56:36,147

Or you just say, no, you

better go somewhere else.

:

00:56:36,147 --> 00:56:40,107

Maybe there's a staff position for you

or you, you decide for something else.

:

00:56:40,107 --> 00:56:40,197

Mm-hmm.

:

00:56:40,527 --> 00:56:44,817

These discussions, I know many

professors have a hard time to take,

:

00:56:45,447 --> 00:56:48,957

you know, to, to tell them that,

you know, no, it's an end here.

:

00:56:50,457 --> 00:56:52,527

Geri: So that's a

different form of honesty.

:

00:56:52,527 --> 00:56:53,457

That's, yeah.

:

00:56:53,907 --> 00:56:54,207

Challenging.

:

00:56:54,567 --> 00:56:57,387

Tina: It's, yeah, it's, and as

a career coach, coach, I've been

:

00:56:57,387 --> 00:57:01,647

there many times myself, I have to

phrase it differently, but it's, you

:

00:57:01,647 --> 00:57:03,507

know, it's really hard discussions.

:

00:57:04,557 --> 00:57:04,857

Mm-hmm.

:

00:57:05,472 --> 00:57:08,832

Geri: But it is a gift to be able to

have that discussion well with people.

:

00:57:08,832 --> 00:57:12,672

'cause it's not about, you are not

good for this, but there are places

:

00:57:12,672 --> 00:57:15,732

that are gonna be a better, what, you

know, where it's gonna be a better

:

00:57:15,732 --> 00:57:17,532

match for your natural talents.

:

00:57:17,532 --> 00:57:18,162

Tina: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

:

00:57:18,162 --> 00:57:19,362

A better match for you.

:

00:57:19,542 --> 00:57:20,112

Mm-hmm.

:

00:57:20,202 --> 00:57:21,162

It's about matching.

:

00:57:21,762 --> 00:57:21,822

Yeah.

:

00:57:21,822 --> 00:57:24,402

And I, you know, in the future,

that's gonna be even more

:

00:57:24,402 --> 00:57:26,292

important even for companies.

:

00:57:26,382 --> 00:57:26,712

Geri: Mm.

:

00:57:26,742 --> 00:57:29,412

Tina: Because they, they are

transforming so quickly now.

:

00:57:29,412 --> 00:57:31,032

So you can be very well in one.

:

00:57:32,367 --> 00:57:35,577

Position for quite a while, and then

suddenly it's not there any longer.

:

00:57:35,817 --> 00:57:35,967

Mm-hmm.

:

00:57:35,967 --> 00:57:38,697

And you have to pivot

somewhere completely else.

:

00:57:38,727 --> 00:57:38,967

Yeah.

:

00:57:39,357 --> 00:57:41,877

We call it upskilling and transformation.

:

00:57:42,327 --> 00:57:42,627

Geri: Yeah.

:

00:57:42,927 --> 00:57:43,167

I know.

:

00:57:43,217 --> 00:57:48,857

The pivoting is going to be all the more

important even within, even when you

:

00:57:48,857 --> 00:57:52,337

are in supposedly a secure position.

:

00:57:52,337 --> 00:57:52,847

Yes, of course.

:

00:57:52,847 --> 00:57:53,837

Tina: Secure position.

:

00:57:53,837 --> 00:57:54,017

Yeah.

:

00:57:54,197 --> 00:57:57,617

Geri: The, the pivoting in how you

interpret that and play it out.

:

00:57:57,617 --> 00:58:02,147

I mean, even what we see now with people

in, you know, people who are lecturing

:

00:58:02,207 --> 00:58:06,797

courses in universities, having to

rethink what does it mean to lecture?

:

00:58:06,857 --> 00:58:08,057

What does it mean to learn?

:

00:58:08,057 --> 00:58:11,387

What does it mean to assess

learning when people have access

:

00:58:11,387 --> 00:58:13,067

to these, you know, oh yeah.

:

00:58:13,597 --> 00:58:16,097

ChatGPT and tools related tools.

:

00:58:16,817 --> 00:58:21,047

Tina: I just say, I, I, I say

I am a career coach, leadership

:

00:58:21,047 --> 00:58:22,427

coach, call me, whatever.

:

00:58:22,727 --> 00:58:28,817

And I gave, uh, a seminar for online

for people, career coaches in Singapore,

:

00:58:29,357 --> 00:58:30,767

and they said, you know, but Tina.

:

00:58:31,517 --> 00:58:35,777

You talk about AI, you know, because

I give it a seminar about how to

:

00:58:35,777 --> 00:58:40,967

use AI as your career ally, as a

career coach to support your client.

:

00:58:41,417 --> 00:58:44,627

And, and I discussed it, and

it's a lot about natural talents.

:

00:58:44,627 --> 00:58:49,757

And so, but there must be a risk, Tina,

that we, we are not needed in the future.

:

00:58:49,967 --> 00:58:51,887

And my, my logical answer, of course.

:

00:58:51,917 --> 00:58:52,127

Yeah.

:

00:58:52,157 --> 00:58:52,667

Yeah.

:

00:58:52,667 --> 00:58:53,657

It could very well be.

:

00:58:54,167 --> 00:58:55,247

But that's a fact.

:

00:58:55,247 --> 00:58:56,507

We can't change a fact.

:

00:58:56,747 --> 00:59:01,067

It's more how we orient ourself, but

honestly, we've been there before.

:

00:59:01,157 --> 00:59:01,217

Hmm.

:

00:59:01,217 --> 00:59:04,697

It's been in UK when spinning Jenny came.

:

00:59:04,697 --> 00:59:04,787

Yes.

:

00:59:05,087 --> 00:59:07,067

And people are, we are

never gonna get a job.

:

00:59:07,247 --> 00:59:11,417

But the fact was that spinning

jenny generated more jobs.

:

00:59:11,572 --> 00:59:11,832

Yeah.

:

00:59:11,987 --> 00:59:12,197

Yeah.

:

00:59:12,467 --> 00:59:15,287

So it could be that I'm not

the career coach in the future.

:

00:59:15,287 --> 00:59:19,907

I might be something else, but you

know, we need to go hand in hand

:

00:59:19,907 --> 00:59:23,837

with, with the technology sort of,

and, and, and if you're open-minded,

:

00:59:23,842 --> 00:59:25,637

you, you will find a new path.

:

00:59:26,537 --> 00:59:29,117

Geri: This goes back to

your unseen opportunities.

:

00:59:29,177 --> 00:59:29,297

Yes.

:

00:59:29,297 --> 00:59:33,047

That you said at the very beginning

and about having agency and helping

:

00:59:33,047 --> 00:59:34,847

to shape and create those as.

:

00:59:34,862 --> 00:59:35,152

Yeah.

:

00:59:35,567 --> 00:59:35,807

Yeah.

:

00:59:36,077 --> 00:59:41,027

Well, so it does paint a very

interesting, exciting, challenging

:

00:59:41,027 --> 00:59:46,217

picture of careers in the future that

we're always going to be challenged and

:

00:59:46,217 --> 00:59:51,367

need to reinvent, whether it's changing

from a limited contract to another

:

00:59:51,367 --> 00:59:53,647

limited contract or even within a role.

:

00:59:54,157 --> 00:59:59,797

Um, and that we need to look out for

those personal skills that people have

:

00:59:59,797 --> 01:00:03,637

and, and their natural talents and

how we can be mutually beneficial.

:

01:00:03,817 --> 01:00:04,057

Hmm.

:

01:00:04,657 --> 01:00:04,867

Yeah.

:

01:00:04,927 --> 01:00:07,957

So this has been really

interesting and stimulating.

:

01:00:07,957 --> 01:00:11,437

Tina, are there any things that

we've not talked about that you think

:

01:00:11,437 --> 01:00:13,717

would be important just around that?

:

01:00:13,797 --> 01:00:17,277

Tina: Yeah, I have something I like

to challenge the professors with.

:

01:00:17,277 --> 01:00:21,387

I am quite sure some professors already

do it, but they do it in industry.

:

01:00:21,387 --> 01:00:24,747

And that is that when you are

gonna recruit people, invite

:

01:00:24,747 --> 01:00:26,607

your team into the process.

:

01:00:28,767 --> 01:00:34,587

So let the team evaluate the people,

I think, you know, because you

:

01:00:34,587 --> 01:00:36,027

know they're gonna work in a team.

:

01:00:36,027 --> 01:00:36,447

Yeah.

:

01:00:38,382 --> 01:00:42,342

So, and, and that if you have a

well-functioning team, they like

:

01:00:42,342 --> 01:00:44,202

to work with you for a reason.

:

01:00:44,262 --> 01:00:45,942

They can help you in the process.

:

01:00:46,432 --> 01:00:52,042

And also that I know, and I like to

challenge some, uh, you know, professors

:

01:00:52,042 --> 01:00:57,112

that help your team to attract talents

by allowing them to be on social media,

:

01:00:57,352 --> 01:01:03,802

because it is, as I wrote, build a culture

in your group that attracts talents.

:

01:01:04,042 --> 01:01:08,632

Then you don't have to advertise

or you, maybe if you advertise,

:

01:01:08,632 --> 01:01:14,512

you get the ones you want because

that is word spread today.

:

01:01:16,192 --> 01:01:25,192

So if your former PhDs and postdocs

are thriving afterlife and say they

:

01:01:25,192 --> 01:01:30,052

felt seen and supported, you will

never struggle to recruit again.

:

01:01:30,052 --> 01:01:30,922

Geri: Mm-hmm.

:

01:01:32,632 --> 01:01:33,232

Yeah.

:

01:01:34,972 --> 01:01:38,152

That is really interesting too, that

:

01:01:41,632 --> 01:01:48,532

giving to people and that the, like,

it continues to give on in a way.

:

01:01:48,592 --> 01:01:52,222

And that's, that's about building

culture as well because they carry

:

01:01:52,222 --> 01:01:59,362

forward that same attitude of care

and helping people learn and develop.

:

01:01:59,482 --> 01:02:00,022

Yeah.

:

01:02:00,172 --> 01:02:03,232

Tina: And as a professor, you,

when the people are leaving

:

01:02:03,232 --> 01:02:05,182

your group, you grow with them.

:

01:02:05,632 --> 01:02:06,082

Geri: Mm-hmm.

:

01:02:06,622 --> 01:02:10,492

Tina: So they will be your next

generation collaborators and et cetera.

:

01:02:10,492 --> 01:02:10,582

Yes.

:

01:02:10,762 --> 01:02:14,752

This is what really, you know,

some greater professors that

:

01:02:14,752 --> 01:02:18,712

I know that I admire, that is

a system they are using a lot.

:

01:02:18,922 --> 01:02:21,652

So they get a referral

system, alumni system.

:

01:02:21,652 --> 01:02:21,922

Yeah.

:

01:02:21,982 --> 01:02:22,792

Supporting them.

:

01:02:23,152 --> 01:02:23,512

Geri: Yeah.

:

01:02:24,952 --> 01:02:29,707

And again, that comes back to the

emotional intelligence skills, the

:

01:02:29,707 --> 01:02:35,037

relationship skills that as you

said, we are not so good in academia

:

01:02:35,037 --> 01:02:39,147

at actually helping people develop,

and yet they're, they're core to

:

01:02:39,147 --> 01:02:44,187

building your research group in which

people can thrive and, um, yeah.

:

01:02:44,187 --> 01:02:46,227

Helping them with their career journeys.

:

01:02:47,307 --> 01:02:47,727

Yeah.

:

01:02:47,997 --> 01:02:51,837

Tina: It would change a lot in academia

if they could get that sort of culture.

:

01:02:52,377 --> 01:02:52,677

Yeah.

:

01:02:52,677 --> 01:02:53,217

I put it that way.

:

01:02:53,367 --> 01:02:54,417

Yeah, it would happen a lot.

:

01:02:55,017 --> 01:02:55,107

Yeah.

:

01:02:55,197 --> 01:03:00,117

It's much more innovation going on,

uh, in academia than it is today.

:

01:03:00,177 --> 01:03:00,447

Mm-hmm.

:

01:03:00,447 --> 01:03:05,337

Because I know, I know there's huge

mental health problems, not only

:

01:03:05,337 --> 01:03:09,057

among PhDs and postdocs, but also

among professors and lecturers.

:

01:03:09,387 --> 01:03:09,928

Geri: Yes, yes.

:

01:03:10,407 --> 01:03:10,677

Yeah.

:

01:03:10,767 --> 01:03:14,217

And our culture and, and you know,

the systemic issues that you talked

:

01:03:14,217 --> 01:03:19,467

about, as well as the local culture

that people are experiencing.

:

01:03:20,277 --> 01:03:21,657

Big contributors to that.

:

01:03:21,837 --> 01:03:22,107

Tina: Mm-hmm.

:

01:03:23,727 --> 01:03:24,237

Mm.

:

01:03:24,537 --> 01:03:28,197

So if someone is listening to this and

I say, you know, maybe I should go,

:

01:03:28,197 --> 01:03:30,027

but I'm a professor, it's not possible.

:

01:03:30,057 --> 01:03:30,327

Yes.

:

01:03:30,327 --> 01:03:32,312

It's, I know it.

:

01:03:34,197 --> 01:03:35,547

It is possible to pivot.

:

01:03:35,787 --> 01:03:36,552

It's never too late.

:

01:03:36,552 --> 01:03:37,072

Yes, yes.

:

01:03:37,072 --> 01:03:37,712

Never too late.

:

01:03:38,072 --> 01:03:39,632

Yeah, it's possible.

:

01:03:39,632 --> 01:03:41,907

Geri: And you're paying a

cost either way, aren't you?

:

01:03:41,912 --> 01:03:41,992

Yes.

:

01:03:41,992 --> 01:03:44,967

Like if you stay just because you

think you ought to, or it's too

:

01:03:44,967 --> 01:03:52,227

scary to pivot and you are in that

de-energized zone, what a cost.

:

01:03:52,557 --> 01:03:57,087

Tina: It's a huge cost, uh, emotionally,

and it's a cost on your health.

:

01:03:57,177 --> 01:03:59,727

And, and sort of, as you

know, we have one life.

:

01:03:59,787 --> 01:04:06,027

So, and you don't know it is about the

unseen, so it's just a decision you took.

:

01:04:06,297 --> 01:04:09,087

It doesn't mean you can't come

back in a different shape.

:

01:04:09,447 --> 01:04:09,807

Mm-hmm.

:

01:04:09,822 --> 01:04:15,132

I, it, it, you know, I'm contributing with

my why in academia in a different way.

:

01:04:15,702 --> 01:04:16,422

Yes.

:

01:04:16,512 --> 01:04:20,172

So, so it's sort of coming back,

but I'm still on the periphery.

:

01:04:20,172 --> 01:04:21,522

I realize that.

:

01:04:21,522 --> 01:04:21,582

Yeah.

:

01:04:21,612 --> 01:04:26,892

So, so I think, but I also understand

because if you leave, it's like leaving.

:

01:04:27,622 --> 01:04:33,247

I can see some similarities when I worked

as recruiter,:

:

01:04:33,517 --> 01:04:41,587

:

any longer, but we had AstraZeneca, uh,

:

01:04:41,677 --> 01:04:47,617

Lund in, in Sweden, and they had fused,

it was Astra then Zeneca in UK and

:

01:04:47,617 --> 01:04:49,867

they decided to close the site in Lund.

:

01:04:50,077 --> 01:04:54,727

You know, it was just 700 researchers,

I think it was, and everyone, you know,

:

01:04:54,727 --> 01:04:56,346

they thought, oh no, it's gonna be awful.

:

01:04:56,677 --> 01:04:58,027

But afterwards, it just.

:

01:04:58,402 --> 01:05:00,952

They said, you know, it was

really good because so many

:

01:05:00,952 --> 01:05:02,422

good things came out of it.

:

01:05:02,752 --> 01:05:06,892

But this is to sort of have the mindset

also that I understand if you have

:

01:05:06,892 --> 01:05:11,272

been working in a company or in a

culture like academia, it's a culture.

:

01:05:11,902 --> 01:05:13,552

It is like leaving a family.

:

01:05:15,082 --> 01:05:18,082

And we have to be aware

of, this is psychology.

:

01:05:18,082 --> 01:05:23,332

If you leave a family like academia,

uh, I was like, it's like people

:

01:05:23,332 --> 01:05:24,922

gonna cite, you can't do it.

:

01:05:25,792 --> 01:05:28,492

They're gonna tell you it's gonna

be awful, it's gonna be terrible,

:

01:05:28,762 --> 01:05:32,212

and they will do everything they

can to pull you back to the family.

:

01:05:32,632 --> 01:05:35,452

But that's the moment you have to

say, do you know I love you, but it's

:

01:05:35,452 --> 01:05:37,132

time for me to do something else.

:

01:05:37,492 --> 01:05:37,642

Geri: Yeah.

:

01:05:39,127 --> 01:05:41,677

And I, I think that's a lovely

point to finish on, that you can

:

01:05:41,677 --> 01:05:43,657

still connect to your why Yeah.

:

01:05:43,657 --> 01:05:47,587

And bring that through, and that you

can still use your natural talents Yes.

:

01:05:47,587 --> 01:05:51,007

In different ways, in different

domains, in different career paths.

:

01:05:51,132 --> 01:05:51,352

Yes.

:

01:05:51,607 --> 01:05:52,117

Yes, you can.

:

01:05:52,117 --> 01:05:53,257

Oh, thank you, Tina.

:

01:05:53,257 --> 01:05:54,997

This has been really, really interesting.

:

01:05:55,147 --> 01:05:58,567

And if people wanted to find out

more about what you offer and that,

:

01:05:58,567 --> 01:05:59,857

where would you point them to?

:

01:06:00,187 --> 01:06:04,987

Tina: I would point them either to

my mail that's tina@passagetopro.com

:

01:06:05,287 --> 01:06:08,237

or to my web page, uh, passage to pro.com.

:

01:06:08,987 --> 01:06:09,077

Mm-hmm.

:

01:06:09,077 --> 01:06:12,697

You find me also on LinkedIn, so it's

just to connect with Tina Persson.

:

01:06:12,947 --> 01:06:13,068

Yeah, yeah.

:

01:06:13,697 --> 01:06:15,004

And reach out to me.

:

01:06:15,004 --> 01:06:19,787

Geri: I like the passage to pro because

that does imply that the pivoting

:

01:06:19,787 --> 01:06:21,767

isn't just a moment to another moment.

:

01:06:21,767 --> 01:06:22,697

It's a journey.

:

01:06:22,877 --> 01:06:23,567

Tina: It's a journey.

:

01:06:23,867 --> 01:06:24,346

Exactly.

:

01:06:24,352 --> 01:06:24,532

Yeah.

:

01:06:24,857 --> 01:06:25,067

Yeah.

:

01:06:25,096 --> 01:06:26,867

I actually got people saying, wait, why?

:

01:06:26,987 --> 01:06:28,517

Why do you say Passage to pro?

:

01:06:28,517 --> 01:06:29,507

Because you're never pro.

:

01:06:30,182 --> 01:06:30,392

Hmm.

:

01:06:31,502 --> 01:06:31,742

Yeah.

:

01:06:32,042 --> 01:06:33,872

' Geri: Cause it's always this ongoing.

:

01:06:33,932 --> 01:06:34,682

Tina: Yeah, it's ongoing.

:

01:06:35,132 --> 01:06:35,522

Geri: Yeah.

:

01:06:36,092 --> 01:06:37,232

Lifelong learning.

:

01:06:37,832 --> 01:06:39,542

Thank you very much, Tina.

:

01:06:39,962 --> 01:06:41,762

Tina: Thank you Geri, for inviting me.

:

01:06:41,762 --> 01:06:45,302

And it's been absolutely lovely to

be invited to chat and thank you

:

01:06:45,302 --> 01:06:47,642

for this amazing talk with you.

:

01:06:47,647 --> 01:06:52,622

It was really, really comfortable and

interesting, uh, talking with you.

:

01:06:52,952 --> 01:06:53,432

Great.

:

01:06:53,457 --> 01:06:54,047

Geri: Thank you.

:

01:06:58,487 --> 01:07:02,567

You can find the summary notes, a

transcript and related links for this

:

01:07:02,567 --> 01:07:07,487

podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.

:

01:07:08,147 --> 01:07:13,127

You can also subscribe to Changing

Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify.

:

01:07:13,177 --> 01:07:16,267

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

:

01:07:16,267 --> 01:07:18,187

we can do academia differently.

:

01:07:18,607 --> 01:07:22,807

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

:

01:07:23,257 --> 01:07:26,797

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

:

01:07:26,797 --> 01:07:28,417

podcast with your colleagues.

:

01:07:28,897 --> 01:07:31,057

Together we can make change happen.

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About the Podcast

Changing Academic Life
What can we do, individually and collectively, to change academic life to be more sustainable, collaborative and effective? This podcast series offers long-form conversations with academics and thought leaders who share stories and insights, as well as bite-size musings on specific topics drawing on literature and personal experience.
For more information go to https://changingacademiclife.com
Also see https://geraldinefitzpatrick.com to leave a comment.
NOTE: this is an interim site and missing transcripts for the older podcasts. Please contact me to request specific transcripts in the meanwhile.

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Geraldine Fitzpatrick

Geraldine Fitzpatrick (Geri Fitz), is an awarded Professor i.R. at TU Wien, with degrees in Informatics, and in Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology, after a prior career as a nurse/midwife. She has International experience working in academic, research, industry and clinical settings. She is a sought-after facilitator, speaker, trainer and coach who cares about creating environments in which people can thrive, enabling individual growth, and creating collegial collaborative cultures. She works with academics and professionals at all levels, from senior academic leaders, to mid and early career researchers, to PhD students. She is also a mentor for academics and has been/is on various Faculty evaluation panels and various International Advisory Boards. An example of a course is the Academic Leadership Development Course for Informatics Europe, run in conjunction with Austen Rainer, Queens Uni Belfast. She also offers bespoke courses.