Mark Reed on mental health, love and impact
Professor Mark Reed is an academic, author, podcaster, consultant, trainer, policy advisor among his many roles. His research area is on ecosystem markets and environmental governance, and he studies how researchers can generate and share their knowledge so they can change the world. Reflecting both of these strands, he is both an academic, co-directing a research Centre at Scotland’s Rural College, and he is the founder of Fast Track Impact, a training and coaching company, and he hosts The Fast Track Impact podcast. He also has a host of other roles you can read about on his web page.
We discuss the concept of 'impact' in academia, the challenges of mental health and burnout amongst academics, and the importance of self-compassion, self-reflection and self-care. Driven by a desire to make a difference, Mark intertwines his academic inquiries with a commitment to environmental stewardship and decolonizing research. He also talks about his commitment to empowering colleagues, managing postdocs efficiently, and his take on the biases and limitations within the academic system.
Overview
00:05 Introduction
00:30 Meet Professor Mark Reed: A Multi-faceted Academic
01:18 The Importance of Self-Reflection in Academia
01:56 Mark's Personal Struggles and the Importance of Self-Compassion
02:07 The Role of Purpose and Values in Mark's Work
02:56 Mark's Journey as an Academic and Policy Advisor
07:23 The Challenges and Biases in the Academic System
08:32 Building a Compassionate Culture in Academia
11:33 Decolonizing Research and Influencing Policy
27:11 The Role of Empathy and Love in Research
32:13 The Importance of Self-Care and Work-Life Balance in Academia
48:05 Creating a Purposeful Workplace and Leading from the Bottom Up
51:24 Conclusion: The Impact of Love and Empathy in Academia
52:56 End
Listen here for a version to follow the transcript linked directly to the audio
Related Links
Mark's research web page & Fast Track Impact page
Mark’s books: https://www.fasttrackimpact.com/books#impact-culture
- The Research Impact Handbook 2nd Ed 2018
- The Productive Researcher 2017
- Impact Culture 2022
Mark’s ‘The Fast Track Impact’ podcast series
Mark Reed & Hanna Rudman, Re-thinking research impact: voice, context and power at the interface of science, policy and practice, 18, Sustainability Science, 967-981, 2023.
Richard Watermeyer's 2019 book: Competitive Accountability in Academic Life: The Struggle for Social Impact and Public Legitimacy
Dr Kristin Neff, Uni of Austen Texas on self compassion
Prof Michelle Pinard, Uni of Aberdeen
Transcript
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
2
:I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is
a podcast series where academics and
3
:others share their stories, provide
ideas, and provoke discussions about what
4
:we can do individually and collectively
to change academic life for the better.
5
:.
Today, I bring you a conversation with Professor Mark Reed.
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:Mark's an academic, an author, a
podcaster consultant trainer policy
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:advisor, amongst his many roles.
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:And he's someone who's really driven
by wanting to make a difference.
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:His research is on ecosystem markets
and environmental governance.
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:And he also studies how researchers
can generate and share their
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:knowledge for more impact.
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:Reflecting both of these strands.
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:He's an academic, co-directing a research
center at Scotland's rural college.
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:And he is the founder of a
company called fast track impact.
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:And as part of this hosts the
fast track impact podcast series.
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:Given the recent discussions
around burnout, I thought
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:it would be particularly
interesting to talk with mark.
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:Because if you listen to
his podcast, you'll know him
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:as an amazingly reflective,
thoughtful and principled person.
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:Who brings his whole self and
shares very honestly and openly.
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:In that same vein, we discuss here some
of the issues around academic research,
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:like the complex nature of research and
biases within the system and ways that
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:we might sort of decolonize research.
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:And more particularly for
our recent discussions.
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:He also shares his own personal struggles
and challenges around mental health.
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:And the importance of self
compassion and being self-reflective.
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:And you'll see a really strong red thread
about how he's really clear about his
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:purpose and values and the importance of
that for guiding all of his decisions.
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:I found it a really inspiring and honest
demonstration of courage and curiosity
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:and the, and the quest for impact.
31
:Enjoy listening to this
conversation with Mark Reed.
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:Mark, thanks for joining me.
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:I'm really so excited to be talking to
you because I've been a huge fan of your
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:work and what you put out in the world.
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:Before we get to some of that, how
would you want to introduce yourself?
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:Because it's rich and
complex and multifaceted.
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:Mark: Um, yeah, so I guess I have a
few different hats that I can put on.
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:Um, and I guess for this, it's
primarily the role that I play through
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:FastTrackImpact, which is a company I set
up to generate impact from my research
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:on impact, um, trying to understand how
it is that we as researchers can use our
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:work to make a difference in the world,
um, and so through fast track impact,
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:I do training, create free resources
and, uh, and do my best to enable busy
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:academics to use their time as wisely as
possible to make as much of a difference
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:as they can with the time that they have.
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:I am also a full time academic.
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:I'm a professor of rural,
rural entrepreneurship and co
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:director of a research centre
at Scotland's Rural College.
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:I've got visiting chairs in, in three
other universities and a range of
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:other roles with policy organisations.
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:where I am trying to achieve impact
from my environmental research.
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:So I have this kind of dual track of
the environmental research where I'm
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:trying to make a difference in one
domain, applying what I'm learning from
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:my research on impact to try and make
more of a difference in my own work,
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:but also then bringing that experience
and that kind of lived experience of
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:what actually works in practice back
into my research and training on impact.
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:Geri: It's, it's, that's very meta.
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:Mark: Yeah, it's nice.
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:The two just, yeah, they
work really nicely together.
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:And also my PhD, wanting
to make a difference and
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:failing to make a difference.
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:And then just like any curious
researcher wondering, yeah, how
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:did I get this so badly wrong?
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:What can I do differently
and generalize from there?
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:Geri: And that's what comes across so
much in all your work that I don't know
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:stepping into the full humanity of.
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:Who you are as Mark Reed, like not who
you, you know, not who you are as the
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:academic in some generic identity sense,
but I think the richness and the value
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:comes from that, I don't know, just
owning all of the different complexities
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:and the things not working out.
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:And more than that, the
ability to reflect on it.
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:Were you always a very reflective person?
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:Mark: Yeah, I don't know.
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:I don't think any more
than any other researcher.
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:I've yet to meet a researcher who is
not driven in some sense by a sense
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:of curiosity, but, um, I think, um, As
I've gone on through my career, I've had
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:more courage and seen the difference it
can make to talk about the challenges.
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:I think that that's also
given me some meaning.
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:I've had some fairly major challenges
that I've had to wade through to get
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:where I am, just to do what I'm doing.
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:And, um, and I think being able to
to reflect on that and and talk about
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:that and empower others has helped
me to find some meaning in that to
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:say well yeah it wasn't for nothing
actually if others can take something
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:from that experience and And I think
it's, it's quite rare that people in
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:kind of more senior roles, like myself,
talk about these kinds of challenges.
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:And the result is that you look at
all of these people who are further
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:ahead than you in your career, and it
just seems completely unattainable.
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:If only I had all of the privileges
that someone like Mark has, and I
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:have a lot of privileges as A white,
heterosexual male with English as my
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:first language, all of the rest of it.
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:And I think what I've tried to communicate
is that, yeah, for all of that privilege,
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:I've had hidden struggles with mental
health in particular that have been
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:debilitating, that have required
me to make major adaptations to my
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:work, sacrifices, and whatever it is.
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:That, that you might be facing.
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:My, my hope is that, that I can give
people a, a bit of hope that yeah, it's
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:possible to, to get through Mm-Hmm.
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:Um, and to, and to keep going, uh, and,
um, and hopefully give a few people
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:a bit of sustenance on the way if,
if they've found things hard as well.
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:And yeah, some of it's internal,
but a lot of it is external.
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:We, we are working in a broken
system that makes things incredibly
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:hard, uh, especially if you.
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:find your life at the intersection
of a whole load of disadvantages, um,
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:uh, and, uh, on the, the wrong end of,
uh, of all of the, the institutional
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:biases and privileges that are handed
out to certain types of, of, of people.
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:It's an incredibly hard place
to, to work in and thrive.
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:Rejection just baked into,
to, to the system of peer
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:review and all the rest of it.
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:So, so yeah, I, I, I.
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:It's hard, but it's good.
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:And I think it's just that
reality that I want to paint
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:through the work that I'm doing.
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:Geri: You're talking
about personal issues.
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:And that is just such a salient reminder
about, don't believe what we see, that
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:all of us are human in different ways.
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:And probably everyone we're working
with has different sorts of issues.
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:You talk a lot about building
a compassionate culture.
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:Can you say a little bit more about that
in terms of how we might enable space
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:for one another to, uh, on the surface
seem like we're okay, but actually not be
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:Mark: one of the exercises I do in,
uh, in a couple of my, my trainings is.
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:To get people to think about and discuss
how they deal with challenges around
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:imposter syndrome, perfectionism,
people pleasing, things like that.
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:To just normalise the fact that,
oh, we all struggle with at least
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:one of these, at least from time to
time, and many of us struggle with
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:multiple of these, a lot of the time.
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:And for a lot of people
just opening that up.
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:having some discussion about that.
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:The biggest eye opener is the
fact that we're not alone in this.
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:And, um, and surprisingly, actually,
it's, it's often new professors who, uh,
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:who I find struggle most with imposter
syndrome because imposter syndrome
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:ultimately is about a gap between how you
see yourself and how the world sees you.
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:And so it is often, uh, once we reach
those milestones that we've been striving
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:for and thought, yes, if I can just
get to that point, then I'll feel like
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:I'm worth it, that I deserve this.
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:That all of a sudden that gulf opens up
again, um, and, and I think especially,
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:I think it's particularly powerful when
more senior colleagues open up about these
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:kind of struggles and how they've dealt
with them, uh, because, uh, ultimately
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:yes, we come back and reflect on this.
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:What I encourage people to do is
to realize that they've taken the
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:first step towards self compassion.
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:And Kristin Neff talks about this
from University of Austin, Texas.
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:Um, that actually the first step towards
self compassion is realizing that you
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:are not alone, realizing that actually
part of the human experience to suffer
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:and actually now I'm not beating myself
up and saying I shouldn't feel like this,
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:actually this is normal and this is okay.
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:And that place of self acceptance
and self compassion is actually,
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:I would suggest, the foundation
for compassion towards others.
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:And so, for me doing this in a group
setting, whether that's in a training
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:with me, in a research group setting,
just talking openly about these things.
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:And it can be in a really positive
way about how you tackle, how you
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:deal with, how you've overcome.
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:It doesn't have to be overly
vulnerable if you don't want it to be.
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:But that can just normalise the fact that,
yeah, we all struggle with these things.
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:We all give ourselves self compassion,
and we start to see our colleagues
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:with more humanity, understanding that,
yeah, perhaps you're having a hard day.
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:Perhaps I can see now, based on what you
said, that that's maybe what's going on.
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:Maybe I can help build you
up when everything else
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:seems to be tearing you down.
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:Mm,
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:Geri: and with the biases that you
talked about in the system, do you
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:want to unpack that a little bit more?
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:I mean, you mentioned the high rate
of rejection that we know is also tied
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:up with our whole, um, perfectionism
and performance metrics and how we
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:beat ourself up often, but how do
you see or experience the biases
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:and the brokenness of the system?
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:Mark: Um, so I guess at one end of the
spectrum is the insecurity of tenure
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:that many of us face, a job that you have
trained for years and years and invested.
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:Whether it's your own money or just lost,
lost earnings in terms of your education,
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:you've invested huge amounts in and,
uh, and then you've got, uh, an average
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:kind of wage you might be able to get.
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:It's not terrible, but it's not
great, uh, given the number of
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:years that you've invested in that.
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:Um, and one, two year, three year
contracts, and enrolling from one contract
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:to the next, and a publish or perish
culture in which, yeah, if, if I'm not
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:lucky with, with my bosses and, and
I end up not getting first authorship
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:opportunities, not getting time to
write up PhD, whatever else it might be.
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:Uh, then, then yeah, I get stuck
on a hamster wheel of insecurity.
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:I can't get a mortgage.
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:Uh, and, um, and yeah, that's, it's not a
life in which you want to bring a family
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:into, uh, you end up putting your whole,
whole life on, uh, on hold for this, um,
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:and, and, and then at the other end of
the spectrum, um, yeah, people like me.
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:Who got security of tenure, who, who then,
uh, build networks and get privileged
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:opportunities simply because of who I am.
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:And, uh, Sir Richard Waterby is, uh,
published on this, but there are others
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:who, um, have written about how the, at
least in the UK, the majority of, uh,
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:researchers advising government, uh,
are old white men, typically with prof
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:in front of their name, people like me.
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:Um, and so I have access, uh, to,
to, to policy networks that my
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:early career colleagues don't have.
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:Um, uh, and, uh, and so my next book
actually is called Influencing Policy,
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:and what I've attempted to do in
this is to try and decolonize, uh,
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:my approach to influencing policy.
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:And to just call out and recognize
for what it is, the fact that a lot
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:of research into policy is one elite
influencing another elite, because, like
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:it or not, researchers are an elite.
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:And here we are in this cozy little
club with a bunch of policy elites
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:telling them what they should do.
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:When in reality, the decisions that
those policy makers make will have
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:far reaching implications for a
whole load of groups who are often
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:disadvantaged, vulnerable, marginalized.
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:And they don't get a say.
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:They're not in those corridors of power.
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:And I think that one of our greatest
challenges, but also privileges is in
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:thinking about how we can give that power
away, how we can, uh, if not empower and
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:bring those people into the corridors
of power, give voice to their opinions
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:and not just assume that our policy
colleagues are going to do that for us.
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:And of course that then applies
to how we manage our postdocs.
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:I've got a postdoc who just started
with me last month and I said to
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:her, uh, I expect you as part of the
project management plan that you are
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:putting together, I expect you to tell
me all the papers that you're working
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:on from your previous positions,
um, and PhD, if they're still there.
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:Um, and by the end of this post, uh,
have a plan that makes sure that they
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:are all submitted and into the system
as well as all of the stuff that
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:we have to do in, in this project.
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:Um, and, and doing that mentoring, but
potentially coaching as well if people
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:want, um, and trying again to give
away what we have, um, as more senior
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:academics, uh, to those who are less
fortunate than ourselves, so that we
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:can give them that, that, that leg up.
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:Geri: I'm just wondering whether some
people listening may think that there's
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:a cost to doing that as a PI, telling
the postdoc, you can work on papers from
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:previous roles, and not this one that
you may not be a co author on, or that
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:you may bring in other people into the
policy discussion so that you're not
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:getting the kudos and brownie points.
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:Have you had any.
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:Um, do you, do you have
those sorts of discussions or
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:debates with yourself at all?
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:What are the trade offs, I guess?
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:Mark: So if you, if you've got a postdoc
that, uh, that, that you are really
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:impressed with, that you really, uh, you
want this postdoc to stay to the end of
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:your project and potentially work with
you on future projects, uh, or, uh,
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:in an ideal world come into your team
as a lecturer or, uh, uh, et cetera.
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:Then, then why wouldn't you want to invest
for the long term and yeah, there's a,
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:an initial cost to you and they might
get a lecture, lectureship elsewhere.
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:Um, but, uh, but, but one thing's
likely is that they will stay
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:to the end of the project.
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:And if they do get an offer, they
can't refuse, then they will work as
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:responsibly as possible to tie things
off and not leave you in the lurch.
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:And my PI colleagues, uh, who take a
much more kind of mercenary approach
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:to this, um, regularly have problems
with staff turnover, um, where,
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:yeah, uh, why would I work for this
person if I get an offer elsewhere?
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:And why would I bother myself to tie
things off someone like this when,
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:well, what are they given to me?
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:Um, and, and so, so you can argue
that, but when it comes to the policy
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:side of things, I think that there's
actually something deeply irresponsible
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:and fundamentally wrong with the idea
that I try to get my research impact
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:based on my research when policy should
not be based on individual studies.
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:And to do so would mean that policy
would flip flop every time a new study
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:comes out that says something different
for equally good reasons, because
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:they've got a different sample, a
different research design, a different
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:model, or whatever it might be.
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:And of course, we all know that
the literature is rarely, uh,
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:unanimous, uh, in anything.
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:And so we should be basing policy advice.
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:A, on evidence synthesis, on bodies
of work, not just on our own work,
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:but actually in any democracy we
should be trying our best to represent
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:different perspectives as well.
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:Because the policy process is not this
kind of black and white reductionist
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:process of finding a singular truth.
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:It is actually a democratic process of
representing different perspectives,
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:and so we will prevent present an
evidence based perspective, which could
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:have multiple lines of evidence that
might suggest doing different things.
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:There could be moral lines of argument
that simply say, yes, the evidence might
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:say that's okay, but we don't think it is.
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:And so I work in the environment
space, I work with academics who
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:tell me that there is scientific
consensus that GM foods are safe.
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:And that fracking is not dangerous.
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:And yet, at least in the UK, things may
be changing a bit since leaving Brexit.
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:But we have made decisions that
say, no, because the public
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:are not happy about this.
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:And that is right.
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:And in a world where scientists rule,
well, you don't need democracy anymore.
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:That's actually an autocracy.
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:Uh, and I think that we need
to actually think really deeply
273
:about why we're doing what we're
doing if this is about my glory.
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:Geri: Again, that takes a lot of self
reflection and Leaving the ego at
275
:the door and, um, how to negotiate
these competing concerns, data,
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:evidence, all sorts of aspects.
277
:You talked about decolonizing
this process and you talked about,
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:um, then bringing in more people.
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:Are there other ways in which
you, you think about decolonizing
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:that, uh, influencing policy?
281
:Yeah.
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:Mark: So, um, uh, I guess.
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:The, the best place to point
you is, is a paper that I
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:published, uh, is it last year?
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:Uh, called Rethinking No.
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:This year actually
Rethinking Research Impact.
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:And, um, and this is, is an initial
attempt to decolonize that this
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:whole, uh, narrative, um, that, that
we have, uh, around research impact,
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:uh, that it is, uh, about us as the
researchers who know what is right
290
:and what is best, uh, telling everyone
what to do based on the evidence.
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:Mm-hmm.
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:And it was the most challenging
thing that I've ever written.
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:It took six, seven years in total.
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:And the majority of my co authors actually
decided that they wanted to withdraw
295
:and not have their names associated
with the paper because they believed
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:that the paper itself was racist.
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:And so it was this, this huge internal
battle for me to decide whether
298
:or not I should self censor this
or whether I should put this out.
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:And despite the fact that there is
a fundamental problem here, which
300
:is that it is the lead author is me.
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:And here I am saying that, that
we need to get out of the way.
302
:and enable those less privileged than us
to lead this process for their own benefit
303
:when I'm not getting out of the way and
letting someone else write this article.
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:And I think that for me that's been
a process of saying well yeah this
305
:is work in progress for me and I'm
not maybe as far ahead in my thinking
306
:as some of my co authors are.
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:But I know that there's plenty of
people who are still behind me on this
308
:curve, and by speaking about this, I
can help others to become more self
309
:reflective and think about this.
310
:And so how I got around this was
to write a positionality statement
311
:in a paper, me and my co author.
312
:Um, to explain, uh, our positionality
in relation to all of these issues,
313
:um, and, uh, and the intersection
of, uh, of advantage and disadvantage
314
:that, that we experience.
315
:And as part of that, I, um, in the
paper made a public apology for
316
:what I now see as the epistemic
racism of my PhD research.
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:Uh, where, uh, I went out to the Kalahari,
um, uh, and, uh, and tested local
318
:knowledge, um, and validated, um, all
of this incredible local knowledge, uh,
319
:against Western scientific principles,
uh, as if somehow, uh, I'd proven that
320
:you were right because, uh, because
Western science says you're right.
321
:I mean, it's just painfully patronizing.
322
:Um, but I was blind to it at the time.
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:And so, so for me, it's about recognizing
what I've done wrong, um, uh, that
324
:this is not fixed yet, but, uh,
but, but opening this up to others.
325
:And in this paper, I talk about three
ways in which we can do this, which is
326
:paying attention to voice, to contact.
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:And to power.
328
:And I guess it's that final thing that
I've been talking about here, which
329
:is that positionality and recognizing
my own implicit power and how that
330
:comes across to others, whether or
not I'm aware of that, working with
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:that, so that I can empower others.
332
:And when I'm working policy or any other
kind of context, it's about understanding
333
:those power dynamics, so that I'm not
putting people with each other who
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:are going to traumatize each other.
335
:I'm separating groups where necessary
to work with them individually.
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:And I'm thinking about how I bring this to
them, rather than expecting them to come
337
:to me or to the policy process or to reply
to some consultation or whatever else.
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:And that requires working with
professional facilitators or building
339
:those kind of skills yourself and
thinking much more systematically
340
:about who we are working with.
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:And I've got a process I call a 3 I
analysis where I think about people's
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:interest, influence and impact.
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:Whether that's influences positive or
negative, it's maybe a blocking influence
344
:as much as it is a facilitating influence
to achieve good things and impact,
345
:whether that's they're gonna benefit from
this or negatively be impacted by this.
346
:And, and this is a paper I've got on
the review at the moment, which is
347
:effectively a, a, a, a more inclusive
approach to stakeholder analysis.
348
:Uh, and a, another, another paper
under review at the moment where.
349
:We are suggesting that even the word
stakeholder has colonial roots and
350
:connotations which are problematic
that we need to root out if we
351
:are to decolonize our language.
352
:And so I guess to come back to your
question, for me the starting point is
353
:that three I analysis, understanding
who it is that is out there in
354
:a much more inclusive way, but a
deeper way so we can understand those
355
:power dynamics and work with them.
356
:Geri: And it sounds like underpinning
all that is another I around
357
:intention, like your own intention,
um, coming into that work.
358
:Mark: Tell me more.
359
:What's, what's sweet?
360
:What's your thought?
361
:Geri: Well, it just struck me that,
you know, you can reflect on your
362
:PhD work very honestly and openly
and cringe now and go, how could
363
:I've How could I have done that?
364
:Or how could I have been so arrogant to
bring this sort of, uh, Western lens?
365
:And at the time, your best intention was
to do good because you talk about making
366
:a difference , it seems like a red thread
value through everything that you do.
367
:Um, and so sometimes our intentions,
while they come from a good place, may
368
:also serve to blind us in some ways
to some of the maybe implicit biases.
369
:Or just blind spots that we're not
seeing, you know, that, that with
370
:time and with progression, just with
general society and general awareness,
371
:I think you sort of go, Oh, goodness.
372
:I think we can all in some ways,
look back at some of our research
373
:and go, how did I do that?
374
:Mark: Yeah.
375
:Yeah.
376
:Totally.
377
:Yeah.
378
:I come from a missionary family.
379
:Um, and, um, some of my
ancestors were some of the first
380
:missionaries in central Africa.
381
:Um, and, um, I myself, I'm still a church
going Christian, um, that's, that's
382
:my heritage, and, um, and I can see
the incredible good that my ancestors
383
:did, that the church has done, and
the incredible evil that it has done.
384
:And I'm using those two words, um,
because I think there is a, there is a
385
:spiritual dimension to, to all of this.
386
:And so for, for me, That word intention
takes me to a spiritual heart, and the
387
:level of self reflection that we need
to do needs to be at that level, whether
388
:we have a faith or not, it needs to be,
yeah, we need that external lens on what
389
:we're doing, rather than our own internal
biases and lenses through which we look
390
:at that we're completely unaware of.
391
:to, to challenge us and
to challenge us deeply.
392
:And I guess the question that I ask just
in my personal life and across everything
393
:is, is what would, what would love do?
394
:And for me that's a deeply personal
and a deeply spiritual question.
395
:But, but asking what would love do in
this situation, uh, can, uh, can help
396
:clarify intention for me at least.
397
:Geri: And that's even in your
research, what would love to,
398
:in sort of, I don't know, even down to
what research questions you frame and
399
:what you choose to put your time to.
400
:Mark: Yeah, absolutely.
401
:Um, it's, it's quite
simple having a single, um,
402
:overarching principle or value.
403
:And so that's, that's been
my, my starting point.
404
:Um, and, um, And, and, and that's
where, yeah, that's, that's why every
405
:decision that I've made I've tried to
pass it through that and yeah, God knows
406
:I've gotten it badly wrong multiple
times but of course you know when
407
:you've gotten it wrong because love
tells you this is not love anymore.
408
:Um, and um, and yeah, so I, I, I decided
early on that as a 12 year old, I want
409
:to be missionary like my ancestors.
410
:I went to university in order to study
tropical environmental science, to
411
:go back to Africa where my ancestors
were, went to Africa, um, had a bit
412
:of a revelation, realized, oh, there's
another side to all of this stuff.
413
:Um, I decided actually the
biggest difference I could make
414
:is through research and teaching.
415
:I want to be an academic.
416
:Um, one of my, my lecturers in my
fourth year, Michelle Pinard at Aberdeen
417
:University, totally inspired me.
418
:And I was like, yeah, I want
your job because if I can inspire
419
:people the way you're inspiring me,
then I can do good in the world.
420
:And she was doing development
studies type stuff.
421
:Um, and I figured, you know what, yeah,
maybe I can actually have a far bigger
422
:impact if I can start to be a bit more
critical about all this stuff, think
423
:much more deeply about this and find
ways to teach others, um, based on
424
:what I learn in this, in this area.
425
:And, and of course that started
off in a very patronizing way.
426
:Um, but it's kind of grown into, um, uh,
trying to, to not only fix environmental
427
:problems, but to understand how it is
that we can all do good in the world
428
:and hence to fast track impact and to
the training and the resources that I
429
:create, which are all geared towards
whatever you want to do in the world,
430
:whatever your value system might be, how
can you do, do good with, with your work.
431
:Geri: That's so powerful.
432
:I'm just, I'm feeling it in my gut, just
that resonating what would love do and the
433
:way that that's remains a constant, even
though the practical ways you've realized
434
:that have shifted and changed with
experience, with insight, with reflection.
435
:And it's not something we ever think
of, we, like, love and research
436
:aren't two words, or love and
academia aren't two words we hear
437
:about, um, together very often.
438
:Mark: No, but, uh, the word
that I tend to use with my
439
:academic colleagues is empathy.
440
:And there's, um, Not a million
miles between the concept of love
441
:and the concept of, uh, of empathy.
442
:Mm-Hmm.
443
:Uh, and, and for me, a
definition of empathy is simply
444
:compassion that takes action.
445
:Uh, and, and love is a doing word.
446
:Uh, love without action is just a
theory and it becomes meaningless.
447
:And so, uh, for, for me, um, uh,
compassion that takes act action.
448
:Uh, it might be a definition
for empathy, but it could also
449
:be a definition for impact.
450
:Mm
451
:Geri: hmm.
452
:Yeah.
453
:Yeah.
454
:And your self compassion that you
talked about before is, is love as well.
455
:Yeah.
456
:Because if you're not able to bring
your best self in that way or deal with.
457
:All of the anxieties or the, the
imposter or whatever, you're not going
458
:to be able to do the, the more outward
facing love that you want to do.
459
:Yeah.
460
:Mark: Yeah, exactly.
461
:Yeah.
462
:And I've had some, some fairly
challenging things that have happened to
463
:me and, uh, just contexts within life.
464
:And, and a lot of that
is, is ongoing sadly.
465
:And I think I've, I've, I've worked
out that actually just to, to survive
466
:and to have that self compassion,
I need to give myself time.
467
:And, uh, and for the last 18 months,
I've, uh, taken my Fridays and, uh, just,
468
:yeah, in the morning I'll finish whatever
work I need to do for, for the week.
469
:And I jump on my bike and,
um, and just spend time in
470
:nature, whatever the weather.
471
:And it's coming to, to, uh, to
our winter, uh, in Britain here.
472
:So, uh, a lot of wet
Fridays, um, uh, coming up.
473
:But, um...
474
:Wet and cold.
475
:Wet and cold, yeah.
476
:Snow and then I just go out tramping
through the snow and ice for the day.
477
:Um, and um, and just, yeah,
it's just been taking that time
478
:for, for myself and it has been
incredibly restorative and healing.
479
:And, and yeah, I mean, I'm coming up
to almost 50 now, um, and, um, and it
480
:is that 18 months of Fridays that have,
uh, that have enabled me to get to the
481
:bottom of the source of, uh, of my anxiety
and, uh, of, uh, of the, the periods
482
:of depression that I've experienced,
uh, through, through my career.
483
:And get the clarity I need to understand
what I need to actually do now.
484
:And I think it's very
easy to hide in your work.
485
:And I think that I've been
guilty of that through my career.
486
:Yeah, I might feel terrible about
myself, but I can get a pat on
487
:the world, pat on the back from
the world when I publish a paper.
488
:My name on the front.
489
:Um, and, um, and I think, yeah, it's
easy to hide, hide in work and, and
490
:ignore, uh, what, what's going on,
especially when you know that whatever
491
:you open up is not going to be nice.
492
:Um, but, um, but yeah, I, I,
I'm, uh, it's, it's been 18
493
:months of, of, of hard work.
494
:And for the first time
now I, I have clarity.
495
:I understand why I struggled
the way that I have.
496
:And, um, And yeah, I think, I want
to normalise that because, yeah,
497
:getting therapy, if there are things
which just keep coming back again
498
:and again and again, rather than
just accepting that these things
499
:come, medicate them in whatever way.
500
:I think it's important to recognize
that that is an option and there's
501
:nothing there's no shame in that.
502
:I often recommend people find find a
coach, find a coach is also a trained
503
:counselor, because yeah, you might
feel like there's just some things
504
:I need to, to overcome in terms of
productivity, but I have a sense
505
:that there's a deeper roots and.
506
:Let's work with a coach who can then
transform into a counsellor if and
507
:when I need that, when I discover
the roots of these, these issues
508
:that I'm trying to work through.
509
:Geri: That seems to connect back to
what you said at the very beginning
510
:about curiosity and courage.
511
:What courage did it take to
create that Friday space?
512
:Because I imagine there would always
be work demands that you could be
513
:doing, especially when you seem
to be doing so much so what did it
514
:take to actually protect that time?
515
:Mark: Uh, so I think we can all do
this thought experiment, uh, what
516
:to happen if you suddenly got sick,
um, and you had to go part time.
517
:Uh, you're now having to cut
your, your hours in half.
518
:Would you be 50 percent less productive
or actually would it force you to really
519
:ask yourself, what are the core things?
520
:What is the most important
things that I have to do?
521
:Um, uh, and if you do that with your
values, uh, side by side, um, uh,
522
:then you realize the things that
actually can go, that, that are not
523
:actually that important, that you can
sacrifice, because in fact, it was just.
524
:They're really to massage my
ego . Um, yeah, I've got, uh,
525
:I've got, I dunno, 200 papers.
526
:Uh, do I really need, uh,
10 papers a year, actually?
527
:Yeah.
528
:If I go for five papers a year,
that's still more than average.
529
:I'm, I'm okay with that.
530
:Um, uh, and as long as I'm doing, uh,
as the same amount of, of reviews, um,
531
:for the community, as I extract from
the community, uh, through all of the,
532
:the grants and, and papers I submit, um,
yeah, I'm gonna say I've done enough.
533
:And so I think you can
all we can all do that.
534
:And, and I think a lot of people it's yeah
I have children, and all of a sudden I
535
:can't work evenings and weekends anymore.
536
:And people who have gone through
that experience will tell you,
537
:yeah, I still do all the core stuff
and actually I just focused on
538
:the stuff that was most important.
539
:your values that are driving you
to do that, then it becomes easy.
540
:It was, it was a matter of survival.
541
:I realized that I wasn't going to
be able to keep, to keep going.
542
:Um, the lockdown was the kind of the
final straw for me in terms of my anxiety.
543
:I didn't make it back
to face to face work.
544
:Um, and, um, and yeah, that, that was
what made me realize, yeah, this is.
545
:Fundamental and problematic enough
and compromising work to the point
546
:that actually, I need to talk
to my line manager about this.
547
:I need to, above board, go and take
these Fridays and do this work.
548
:And I think, ultimately, the payback
will be that I will be able to, I've done
549
:two, three now actually, work, face to
face work things, and they've gone well.
550
:And so there will be that payback.
551
:And I think there's this false
economy where you say, I don't
552
:have time to prioritize me.
553
:I need to just dive into my work.
554
:And yeah, if you were to spend half
an hour, an hour every Monday morning
555
:in work time, just doing something
deeply, For you, and it could be a work
556
:priority, chipping away at some papers.
557
:It could be, I don't know, playing
an instrument, being creative.
558
:It's something that connects you
with your values, with your purpose
559
:at the beginning of your week.
560
:If you can't at the beginning of your day,
then, uh, yeah, you're taking time out.
561
:But actually you go into your day
inspired, you go into your day with
562
:the sense of I can, and as a result
you don't procrastinate, you don't
563
:people please, um, you get on with the
difficult things, um, and you have this
564
:sense of well being that stretches out
and becomes an arc from week to week,
565
:to month to month, to term to term.
566
:Uh, and enables you to
actually work more effectively.
567
:And so, so yeah, I think it's a
false economy just saying, yeah,
568
:I'm, I'm too busy to prioritize
myself and my own needs.
569
:Um, and I put work first, but I'm just
running around like a headless chicken.
570
:Geri: Yeah.
571
:The headless chicken is something we
can probably, many of us can relate to.
572
:Well, and that requires, you know,
you, when you were talking about your
573
:PhD student, you talked about the
longer term view with them and enabling
574
:their career development and also
the payback that they stay with you.
575
:It's the same long term view that you're
talking about here, that in the short
576
:term view we can just get the headless
chicken, can't look further than all the
577
:things on the to do list, but that if you
can prioritize that time and connect with
578
:what energizes you and where you can make
your difference, where you want to make
579
:your difference, um, it resources you
for everything else that you need to do.
580
:And it may be a long process.
581
:I think that's the other thing
that's interesting is the, you
582
:know, the arc of our careers.
583
:You talked about the well being arc,
and it's the arc of our careers that if
584
:we want to be around for the long term,
these are almost like non negotiables
585
:being able to do these things.
586
:Mark: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
587
:Any parent will know the same thing.
588
:It can just be sort of grueling, you
know, you're not getting any sleep,
589
:there's just so many things to do and
you're trying to work at the same time.
590
:Um, uh, and, uh, and yeah, you know that
if, uh, if you don't somehow manage to,
591
:to get enough sleep, uh, if you don't
somehow manage to, to prioritize just
592
:even a tiny bit of time for yourself, um,
then you're not actually going to be able
593
:to be the parent that you want to be.
594
:And you start seeing that coming out in
your parenting and the impact of that.
595
:And so, yeah, we all find this truth in
different ways, in different contexts,
596
:that it is that idea that everything
starts with love, and whether that
597
:is a source that you find from within
yourself or from a higher being.
598
:Um, the, that it has to start
with, uh, with, uh, with, with
599
:the hearts of love within you.
600
:Um, and, uh, only from that place,
uh, of, of self care can you
601
:then care for others properly.
602
:And that doesn't mean being selfish,
doesn't mean spending lots of time.
603
:I think that's one of the objections
to the approach that I train in
604
:through the productive researcher,
which is this idea that you start
605
:your week or your day with something
that connects you to your purpose.
606
:And people are like, well,
that's just really selfish.
607
:But actually, if a colleague came
to you and said, I want to chip away
608
:at one of my papers for my PhD, or
practice an instrument to energize
609
:me for the week, one hour per week,
Before I start my week, you wouldn't
610
:say, well, that's really selfish.
611
:I want all your time
for me and my project.
612
:I hope he was like, yeah,
that's really great.
613
:That's fantastic.
614
:And I can, of course, can see
how that will benefit you and in
615
:the long term, your work project.
616
:And, and you'd be like, yeah, so why can
we not do that for ourselves and actually.
617
:If you can't do that for yourself,
it says something much deeper
618
:about your own self respect.
619
:And you need to go do the work to
ask, well, why can't I prioritize
620
:half an hour on a Monday morning
as a starting point for this?
621
:For me, I can't do that.
622
:I can't find half an hour.
623
:I'm not worth even that.
624
:Yeah, and of course then you go on a
different journey and hopefully realise
625
:at the end of that that maybe you can give
yourself half an hour in which way half an
626
:hour per week can be enough just to give
you the sense of, oh yeah, I am actually
627
:a human being after all, that has purpose
and it is connected to something deeper.
628
:Geri: So purpose and values are recurring
themes in what you've said here today
629
:and in your book, so to, you've got
another book on research impact, the
630
:Handbook of Research Impact, but the
two books that purpose and values,
631
:particularly figure in, I think, are the
productive researcher and, impact culture.
632
:And I love the way, and I know that
you've talked about it as sort of,
633
:you know, you're talking about these
things that sound, like what academia
634
:wants, you know, productive research,
producing lots of outputs and papers
635
:or, having impact, you know, which is
in particularly in the UK in terms of
636
:how they evaluate research assessment and
increasingly in other places, a big issue.
637
:But you underpin all this again
with this, this love, what would
638
:love have you do and this starting
point also of values and purpose.
639
:But for many.
640
:People, when we talk about
purpose, it often becomes this
641
:sort of ethereal concept and it,
how do people get a handle on it?
642
:Can you say a little
bit more about purpose?
643
:Mark: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
644
:Um, so a question that I start many
of my trainings with, which you can
645
:all ask yourselves is simply, what
do you love most about your work?
646
:And, uh, and, yeah, you can say, well, I'm
interested in thermodynamics, and that's
647
:what I research, yeah, but, but why?
648
:Why aren't you interested
in that, of all things?
649
:I mean, yeah, go to a school reunion,
um, and try and explain to someone
650
:why that is intrinsically, uh, an
interesting, uh, thing that you would
651
:love, and you'll just get weird looks.
652
:What is it about that?
653
:Um, and now I get a sense of,
well, it's just this sense of,
654
:of wonder, of awe, of curiosity.
655
:Uh, for others it's, uh, this, this sense
of creativity, of playfulness, of fun.
656
:Uh, for others it's, uh, knowing that I'm
making a difference, uh, wanting to help
657
:others, uh, seeing, uh, that curiosity
and creativity transformed into something
658
:productive others can use, for example.
659
:And, and the quality of that
conversation at the end of it, it's
660
:energised, it's inspired, and you
realise, yeah, when was the last time I
661
:actually thought about that, that why?
662
:And then when was the last time I did
something that connected me with that why?
663
:And in a busy academic role with personal
pressures of life, you end up just on
664
:this hamster wheel sometimes, never
getting to prioritize the things that
665
:you love until you get to this place
where you no longer love your work.
666
:Actually, you feel demotivated,
demotivated, de energized,
667
:uninspired, you're dragging yourself
through each day, each week.
668
:And the idea is simply to ask
yourself, well, what are the things
669
:that you do that take you to that
place of, I love, and how can you
670
:make time for that on a regular basis?
671
:I take people through a bunch of
exercises to really clarify that.
672
:I get people to think about
their different identities
673
:a work identity, a home
674
:identity.
675
:What are those different home identities?
676
:Have they got different roles?
677
:Um, but what do I bring to those roles?
678
:So, yeah, I'm a teacher, I'm a researcher,
but actually, no, I'm not just a teacher.
679
:I'm a facilitator.
680
:That's how I do teaching.
681
:I'm not just a researcher.
682
:I'm an explorer or whatever it might be.
683
:And we now have all of
these different identities.
684
:And from those identities,
we look at values.
685
:What are the things that animate,
that inspire you to be a facilitator
686
:rather than a teacher, to be an
explorer rather than just a learner,
687
:for example, as a researcher.
688
:Um, where does that come from?
689
:And then it is at that intersection
between our identities and our
690
:values that we find our purpose.
691
:And the final thing that I get people
to do then is to say, well, great,
692
:if this is who you are and the values
that inspire you, now how does that
693
:match up to how you spend your time?
694
:And I get people to draw
this as a pie chart.
695
:And if you redraw that pie chart,
now saying, well, how much time
696
:do I get to spend being creative?
697
:Being the father I want to
be, the husband I want to be,
698
:or whatever else it might be.
699
:What are the things that feel, which
are big parts of your identity,
700
:underpinned by important values that
actually feel consistently squeezed?
701
:I never get enough time.
702
:In fact, I get no time at all in
some of these, these parts of myself,
703
:and I feel like I'm losing touch
with that part of myself, that I'm
704
:becoming thinner somehow as a person.
705
:And then the question is, what could
you do on a habitual basis in as
706
:little as half an hour on a Monday
morning that could connect you with
707
:that part of yourself, or at least
one of those parts of yourself that's
708
:really important but is squeezed.
709
:What you get then is this disproportional
impact on that sense of who you are,
710
:your identity, your values, your
sense of well being, and half an hour.
711
:doing that thing now actually rights
all of these wrongs, gives you this
712
:sense of well being, this sense of
work life balance even coming, even
713
:although you haven't quite got the
hours under control yet, that can
714
:just power you through so much.
715
:Geri: Yeah, the, the, um, The
thing that is also really impactful
716
:in your Impact Culture book is
the notion that this change can
717
:happen from the bottom up as well.
718
:Like, we can all do that find a half hour.
719
:And we can all role model that within
our places where we're working.
720
:And you talk about building culture
from that bottom up, and that we don't
721
:need to have the sign on our door saying
we're a leader, to be a leader in that.
722
:And, and, Very much that sense
of leading by empowering, and I'm
723
:conscious that we're getting up to time.
724
:I could just leave it there as
a teaser for people to make sure
725
:they go and read the Impact Culture
book to read more about that.
726
:Or is it sort of a short thing
you'd want to say, um, around that?
727
:Mark: Yeah, I guess it's
just summing up, isn't it?
728
:And, um, How can we go from a conversation
like this into a more purposeful day
729
:to make some plans that will connect us
each with whatever our purpose might be,
730
:to remind us of that and not to wait.
731
:for a new head of school, um, to
that perfect job that I'm going to
732
:get, um, that, that will be a place
in which I can feel like I belong.
733
:Uh, I can create that place now,
uh, for myself, perhaps with a small
734
:number of other colleagues around me
who share a similar purpose to me.
735
:Um, and, um, I just, yeah, I just want
to empower you to, to, to, to think,
736
:uh, for yourself, uh, and, uh, and to
make that time whatever the pressures
737
:might be, uh, because it will pay, it
will pay dividends, it really will.
738
:Geri: Yeah, and creating that more
purposeful workplace that you talk about
739
:as well, which then leads into all of the
actual impact that we want our research
740
:to have in the ways that you talk about.
741
:So I look forward to your next book
coming out and I will point people
742
:in the show notes to your web pages.
743
:wonderful podcast and your books.
744
:And I, I also just want to thank
you for making the book so readable,
745
:so personal, and so actionable.
746
:I Think there's a way in which they
also walk the talk about making
747
:a difference and having impact,
uh, just in what you bring to it.
748
:Anything that you would want to just say
749
:Mark: yeah, just to say
thank you, Geraldine.
750
:And, um, and yeah, so, so have a
look, listen to what I'm doing.
751
:I've just finished a, a series in
the podcast on, on evaluating and
752
:evidencing impact I'm not quite
sure where I'm going to take it next
753
:.
Um, and what a privilege it is to be able to connect.
754
:So it's always nice when you're
kind of aware of someone, um,
755
:and listening to their work and
getting that opportunity to actually
756
:connect and have that conversation.
757
:So thank you.
758
:Geri: Indeed.
759
:Thank you, Mark.
760
:Thank you.
761
:Thank you for your time.
762
:Mark: It's been a pleasure.
763
:Geri: I really want to
thank mark for sharing.
764
:So honestly, here.
765
:And again, what an inspiring
demonstration of courage,
766
:curiosity, and the quest for impact.
767
:I'd really encourage you to follow
up on all of Mark's great resources.
768
:His podcast, his books.
769
:The trainings that he does.
770
:And so on.
771
:You can find the links to all
of these in the show notes.
772
:And I'd also encourage you to think
about what's the one thing you will
773
:do now, having listened to this.
774
:And what would love have you do today?
775
:You can find the summary
notes, a transcript and related
776
:links for this podcast on www.
777
:changingacademiclife.
778
:com.
779
:You can also subscribe to
Changing Academic Life on iTunes,
780
:Spotify and Google Podcasts.
781
:And you can follow
ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.
782
:And I'm really hoping that we can
widen the conversation about how
783
:we can do academia differently.
784
:And you can contribute to this by rating
the podcast and also giving feedback.
785
:And if something connected with
you, please consider sharing this
786
:podcast with your colleagues.
787
:Together, we can make change happen.
