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Episode 12

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Published on:

12th Feb 2025

Oana and Matt (Part 1) on leadership, belonging, and micro-actions making a difference (CAL118 S6E12)

This is part 1 of my discussion with Matthew Barr and Oana Andrei who work together in the Education and Practice Section in the School of computing science at the University of Glasgow. It was the experiences of Matt as head of Section that led Oana to suggest he would be good to talk to. Together they share their experiences of what makes for good academic leadership and change, including the psychological safety and sense of belonging of members, the impact of everyday micro-interactions, and fostering a supportive environment. Matt discusses his approach in leadership, such as seeking feedback for self-improvement and actively supporting staff promotions. Oana also shares her perspective on the importance of belonging and mentorship in academic settings and the experience of good leadership. Their insights provide a meaningful look at how we can transform academic work culture for the better. 

 Overview:

00:29 Episode Introduction

01:52 Welcome

02:28 Oana's Journey and Career

03:46 Matt's Journey and Career

06:13 Leadership and Management Insights

10:00 Creating a Supportive Work Environment

13:29 Supporting Promotion for a Learning, Teaching and Scholarship Track

21:23 Micro Actions That Can Make All The Difference

25:16 Being a Role Model in How We Handle Bad Days

28:45 Learning From Experience What Not To Do

36:44 Taking Care For Belonging

41:20 Linking to Part 2

43:14 End 

Related Links

Oana Andrei, Lecturer (Ass Prof) Uni of Glasgow  webpage and LinkedIn profile 

Matthew Barr (Senior Lecturer) Uni of Glasgow webpage and LinkedIn profile

Role modelling paper mentioned by Matt:

Transcript
Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

Geri:

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is a podcast series where academics and

Geri:

others share their stories, provide ideas, and provoke discussions about what

Geri:

we can do individually and collectively to change academic life for the better.

Geri:

After my psychological safety episode last year, I received an email from Oana

Geri:

Andrei from the University of Glasgow suggesting I might want to talk with

Geri:

her wonderful colleague, Matthew Barr.

Geri:

Matt is head of the Education and Practice section in the School of

Geri:

Computing Science at the University of Glasgow, where he also leads the Graduate

Geri:

Apprenticeship in Software Engineering program that both he and Oana work on.

Geri:

Oana is a lecturer there.

Geri:

I decided it could be great to talk to them together, and thankfully they agreed.

Geri:

And we had such a rich conversation that I decided to split it into

Geri:

two because there were so many different topics to share there.

Geri:

Part one here that you'll listen to is a wonderful conversation,

Geri:

I think, showcasing what leadership with care looks like.

Geri:

It reminds us of the reality that we're all humans.

Geri:

And it also reminds us that our everyday micro interactions can make a big

Geri:

difference for people for good or for bad.

Geri:

So I hope you enjoy this conversation as part one and look forward to part two.

Geri:

I'm very excited today to have two people with me and that's

Geri:

Matthew Barr and Oana Andrei, who are from University of Glasgow.

Geri:

And this conversation came about because Oana contacted me without

Geri:

Matt knowing to say, he would be a great person to speak to because he's

Geri:

an amazing leader and manager and has had a really interesting career.

Geri:

So I thought it would be interesting to talk to both of you first, do you want

Geri:

to just briefly introduce yourselves?

Oana:

Yeah, I'll start.

Oana:

Thank you, Geri, for having us here.

Oana:

I'm Oana, I'm a lecturer in the School of Computing Science

Oana:

at the University of Glasgow.

Oana:

And I've been here, in fact, almost 16 years ago, like this month, next week.

Oana:

Um, but I had a long stint as a postdoc for almost 10 years or so.

Oana:

Um, And then in 2020, I started my role as a lecturer on learning,

Oana:

teaching and scholarship track.

Oana:

And so it's been four years and a half being teaching here.

Oana:

Um, previously I've done my PhD in France on formal methods again.

Oana:

And, uh, before that I come from Romania.

Oana:

I've lived there for 25 years, studied there, and that's where I

Oana:

got into formal methods, really.

Oana:

That was also teaching at the University of, um, Alexandru Ioan Cuza Iași um,

Oana:

before moving to doing my PhD in France, and then somehow I landed here in Glasgow.

Oana:

Um, initially just for a year and a half, but life happened and just stayed here.

Geri:

that?

Geri:

Yeah.

Geri:

Yes, we came over from Australia in 2001 for what we thought would be a year.

Geri:

And we're still in Europe.

Geri:

Um, Matt, thank you, Oana.

Matt:

Yeah.

Matt:

Thanks, Geri.

Matt:

Um, yeah, so I'm Matt.

Matt:

I am also based in the School of Computing Science here at Glasgow.

Matt:

I've been in the city of Glasgow since 97.

Matt:

I'm originally from, from Belfast.

Matt:

My accent wanders a little bit.

Matt:

Um, but, and I've been at the university for about 17 years,

Matt:

but not always in this department.

Matt:

Uh, something we might pick up on later, but together with Oana, um, I

Matt:

run our apprenticeship degree program.

Matt:

So a work based degree program in software engineering, and I wear some other hats

Matt:

as well, but that's probably enough.

Geri:

Just mention some of those hats, briefly,

Geri:

. Matt: Yes.

Geri:

So, until the 1st of January, I was director of education for SICSA, which is

Geri:

the organization that represents all of the computing science schools in Scotland.

Geri:

So, uh, 14 universities.

Geri:

Um, and I also founded the Ada Scotland Festival, which is about getting more

Geri:

girls into computing science and tech.

Geri:

And that's been going for five years now.

Geri:

And that also is related to a short term role where I'm the local chair for

Geri:

the Lovelace Colloquium, which is an event that we'll have here in April.

Geri:

Um, and that's also about encouraging women to study computing science by giving

Geri:

them an opportunity to present their work.

Geri:

Is there anything else?

Geri:

Mm hmm.

Oana:

Head of section?

Matt:

Oh yes, um,

Geri:

ha ha.

Matt:

Yes, somehow I'm also head of section, which technically

Matt:

means me one as boss, but, um, obviously I've forgotten that.

Matt:

One as the real boss.

Geri:

which is why we, why we're here in the first place.

Matt:

Yes.

Matt:

Yes, so, um, that's been about a year and a half, I think.

Geri:

Mm.

Matt:

So I took over the head of section about a year and a half ago, it was

Matt:

the computing education section, but we staged a little, I don't want to

Matt:

say coup, but there was a maneuver, uh, where we brought in the software

Matt:

engineering lab as well and combined that into an education and practice section.

Matt:

So that's, that's what I'm head of.

Geri:

I think it's interesting that you forgot about the head of school, because

Geri:

it says a lot about what your values are.

Geri:

Actually.

Geri:

I mean, how do you interpret that?

Matt:

Yeah, I mean, when it's pointed out to me and I see Oana smiling, I realized

Matt:

that it probably does, um, say something.

Matt:

But then I forgot that that's kind of the point of the of the

Matt:

podcast, right, is about leadership.

Matt:

And I wouldn't be here if, if I wasn't in, you know, it didn't have that

Matt:

relationship with Oana and the team.

Matt:

So yes, um, I'm not sure.

Matt:

It still feels a little bit funny introducing yourself

Matt:

as head of section, right?

Matt:

Or saying that you're someone's boss.

Matt:

It's kind of weird.

Matt:

So maybe I avoid it.

Geri:

it's not been your career ambition

Matt:

No, no, no.

Matt:

Yeah.

Matt:

It feels a bit strange.

Geri:

There's so many things in your introductions that I want to follow up on.

Geri:

But given that the trigger for this was the email that you sent Oana,

Geri:

what was it, or what is it about Matt's leadership and line management?

Geri:

Because you said he's an amazing educator, mentor, ally and supporter.

Geri:

What is it about Matt that prompted you to contact me?

Oana:

So I was thinking about this.

Oana:

First of all, it was the episode from, I took a note here, like the 30th of

Oana:

October on fostering psychological safety and research environment.

Oana:

As I was listening to it.

Oana:

Yeah, it feels like what's happening here, how I perceive it in the

Oana:

workplace Um, translating that into why, like, trying to understand why

Oana:

I experienced this psychological safety is, it's the way that Matt has been,

Oana:

um, I don't know, maybe unknowingly building up this sense of belonging to

Oana:

everyone in, in, first of all, in the graduate apprenticeship program where I

Oana:

first met him, when I started as a, uh, a lecturer four and a half years ago.

Geri:

Mm-hmm

Oana:

Um, it has been, um, an excellent introduction for me to,

Oana:

it, it was during the pandemic time.

Oana:

It was the first year of COVID, and it's been immensely stressful with the

Oana:

lockdowns, me homeschooling and all the stress and teaching online and everything.

Oana:

But the team that Matt, uh, set together around Teaching and supporting

Oana:

the students has been really great.

Oana:

And I've increasingly got this sense of belonging that I've missed before that.

Geri:

Mm hmm.

Oana:

And it was

Oana:

I think as a researcher, as I was a postdoctoral researcher before, it

Oana:

felt more lonely to be a researcher on my own, even though I'm working with

Oana:

some people, but getting to be in a team, having this meaningful job of

Oana:

supporting students and teaching them and designing learning, it created

Oana:

this sense of belonging that really, um, made me feel at home really here.

Oana:

And, um, and then, yeah, I was looking at Matt doing all these amazing things.

Oana:

Like, how does he have time to do this?

Oana:

And what drives him?

Oana:

What's the Matt is nodding here.

Geri:

I know, they're sitting together here and I know it can

Geri:

be tricky, Matt, to hear this.

Geri:

So I appreciate that you're bravely sitting there.

Geri:

Go on,

Oana:

so this, him supporting girls and women in computing science has also been

Oana:

an inspiration and also leading this new section in the school and putting

Oana:

his footprint or trying to bring people together in, um, in a new combination.

Oana:

It's been interesting to see and inspiring as well.

Geri:

I'm curious, can you give us any specific examples of what Matt

Geri:

does that leads to those sorts of feelings of belonging and I also

Geri:

really heard about the meaningfulness of the work that you're doing.

Geri:

You talked about meaningful job.

Oana:

Yes.

Oana:

So, um, first of all is communication.

Oana:

there's a lot of communication.

Oana:

We use Microsoft Teams, say, and, um, we have channels dedicated

Oana:

for communication meetings.

Oana:

People are free to speak up their mind.

Oana:

If there's something he just put his foot on the door and said,

Oana:

I have to do this right away.

Oana:

Because of that and that we have to meet some targets to help students.

Oana:

One.

Oana:

So that's that comes from, um, the him being program director.

Oana:

Another aspect would be.

Oana:

So yeah, one year into him being the head of section, he sent an email to everyone.

Oana:

I want to gather some feedback, anonymous feedback about what he's doing.

Oana:

Oh, that's interesting.

Oana:

I can just give it not anonymously, but

Geri:

Mm.

Geri:

Mm.

Oana:

so that's not something I've seen before.

Oana:

And that shows a sense of, um, Humility and also respect to others opinions

Oana:

and taking out, um, advice from everyone in the team on how to become

Oana:

a better leader, but also how to make the team or the section even better.

Geri:

Wow.

Geri:

That is really unusual.

Matt:

It was quite wracking.

Geri:

what do you want to say in your own defense here?

Oana:

We did not get any feedback from your collective feedback, so I don't

Oana:

know what you did with that feedback.

Matt:

It was positive, thankfully, but I was extremely

Matt:

nervous about putting that out.

Matt:

I just thought it was, but it felt like the right thing to do.

Matt:

My pitch for taking over as head of section was that I wanted to support

Matt:

people, that that was at the core of it.

Matt:

And, um, and that means, you know, a laser like focus on promotion,

Matt:

making sure everybody's happy, and um, moving away a little bit from,

Matt:

you must turn in this paper, or a certain number of papers per year.

Matt:

It's more about making sure people have what they need.

Matt:

Um, and it occurred to me that, you know, if I was serious about that, If

Matt:

I was serious about doing a good job as a leader, I should actually ask

Matt:

the people who were affected by it.

Matt:

So, um, I actually did this, I was asked to do this once before on a leadership

Matt:

program that I was enrolled on through the university, which, um, it's the one time

Matt:

I've had some good CPD, I think, Certainly it was at the better end of the CPD scale.

Matt:

Um,

Geri:

CPD being continuing professional development.

Matt:

Pardon me.

Matt:

Yes, that's right.

Matt:

Yes, training.

Matt:

Yes, on the job training.

Matt:

And, I found it really insightful, right?

Matt:

I actually found it quite, um, overwhelming, the kind of feedback I got.

Matt:

That was true 360 feedback.

Matt:

In that case, it was, you know, people above me, people I work with,

Matt:

you know, and all the rest of it.

Matt:

So this was focused more on just the people that report to me just to

Matt:

check that I was doing okay, because who else is going to know, right?

Matt:

Who's going to know better than the people who are actually having to put up with me?

Matt:

So that was, that was the thinking behind it.

Geri:

Right.

Geri:

Oana?

Oana:

that reminds me one thing I appreciated um, in Matt's, uh,

Oana:

leadership here is the support he gives to everyone in the team about on

Oana:

mentoring, not mentoring on promotion.

Oana:

And, as he has this expression of lifting people up, but also what I think is

Oana:

he's meeting people where they are, and then trying to lift them up from there.

Oana:

And, thinking about my progression here on my work in terms of promotion.

Oana:

It's been definitely more focused.

Oana:

And that's been very helpful.

Oana:

I wasn't thinking well, I was just surviving really in the

Oana:

first couple of years because of the pandemic and everything.

Oana:

And then, at the right time we had these discussions about promotions

Oana:

and that's how we have to focus and very supportive in those discussions.

Geri:

So the discussion about the promotion, how do you conduct that, Matt?

Geri:

Like, how do you go into those discussions?

Matt:

It's quite pragmatic.

Matt:

So, Oana mentioned that when she was hired as a lecturer, she was on our

Matt:

learning, teaching and scholarship track, which is the teaching focused

Matt:

track, um, as opposed to the more traditional research and teaching track.

Matt:

Um, and I'm on that too.

Matt:

And, I get the sense that because it's less well developed, less well understood,

Matt:

there are fewer opportunities for people to develop and to be promoted, right?

Matt:

So, from my own experience, when I went from, you know, lecturer to senior

Matt:

lecturer, for example, I knew that it was quite difficult to pull together the

Matt:

evidence and to persuade more experienced, like, professors who had come up through

Matt:

the more traditional route just to, right, it's, it's, yeah, I'm sure it's

Matt:

a, It's a fairly common issue, I think, um, so with that in mind, and this is

Matt:

something when I was reflecting on what I'd done for this interview, my own

Matt:

experience there has come into it, right?

Matt:

So, um, you can do two things with your experience.

Matt:

You can learn from it and apply it to other people, or you can pull

Matt:

up the ladder behind you, right?

Matt:

And we may come on to it later, but there's one person that came

Matt:

to mind, um, in my experience, who pulled the ladder up behind them.

Matt:

And I was like, no, that's not what I'm going to do.

Matt:

Um, I don't want to be that kind of leader.

Matt:

So whenever we sit down and we have these scheduled meetings,

Matt:

we get the motion criteria out.

Matt:

We have the matrix there.

Matt:

It's absolutely.

Matt:

As I said, it's pragmatic, right?

Matt:

We just need to, what do we need to do to get you to the next grade?

Matt:

And the thing about that is people are doing excellent work.

Matt:

Someone like Oana is doing tons of great stuff.

Matt:

And it's just, part of that conversation is just pointing that

Matt:

out and putting it in the appropriate box to show, look, You're on track.

Matt:

Um, a lot of what we do on the teaching track is it feels like, well, it's

Matt:

just our jobs, but actually, you know, often we're going above and beyond

Matt:

or even just doing a good job, right?

Matt:

So people don't think necessarily to document that.

Matt:

So they don't think they have a promotion case.

Matt:

Um, so it's about teasing that stuff out and then it's about filling the gaps.

Matt:

So one of the things we can do is.

Matt:

I mean, it's not like I'm not in a great position of influence like some

Matt:

of the professors you've had on in the past, Geri, but I still have some

Matt:

influence, or at least I'm at the point in my career where I don't care.

Matt:

I can stick my neck out and orchestrate an invited talk, right?

Matt:

I've got the brass neck that I can say, I know someone who'd be really great.

Matt:

to come and speak to your staff, come and speak to your colleagues.

Matt:

How about you invite them?

Matt:

Because that's one of the criteria for promotion, right?

Matt:

It's like, it's a, uh, is it esteem?

Matt:

Or it's, it's, it's a box that you, we can tick, but that's something I

Matt:

can easily engineer with no effort.

Matt:

But even five years ago, I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that, you know?

Matt:

So, um, now I can reach out to people and create those opportunities.

Matt:

Um, so we, we, we come up with a plan.

Matt:

We try to do it together.

Matt:

We do things like we work on publications on pieces of scholarship together.

Matt:

So, you know, if I'm thinking of doing something, why not get three or four

Matt:

people from the team involved and then we all get a publication out of it.

Matt:

Um, and then

Oana:

Yeah, that has been very useful.

Oana:

Getting me on board a couple of years ago.

Oana:

It's like, Oh, why not?

Oana:

And some of us, would you like to get on board on this paper?

Oana:

I'm going to do most of the work, but just seeing or me seeing the behind

Oana:

the scene, how to pull out the strings and everything has been very useful

Oana:

and very encouraging, motivating.

Oana:

Like I can do that as well if I have the time.

Oana:

So that's been again something

Geri:

mm, mm,

Oana:

appreciate very much.

Matt:

Yeah, and it's great for me, too, because I get smart cookies

Matt:

like Oana me with my papers, right?

Matt:

And someone who can You know, bring their experience to bear and

Matt:

point out what doesn't work, right?

Matt:

It's, um, we were working on, we were working on an experience report.

Matt:

Hope you don't mind me saying this.

Matt:

And, uh, well, I know it was quite frank in, in her response saying, I

Matt:

don't think this works in a sense.

Matt:

And I was like, great.

Matt:

Okay.

Matt:

Better fix it then.

Matt:

Um, but that's brilliant.

Matt:

Right?

Matt:

So yes, three or four of us are going to have our names in that paper if it

Matt:

gets accepted, but it works both ways.

Matt:

Like, it's great for me too.

Matt:

So.

Oana:

Yeah, I'm new to the scholarship of learning and teaching

Oana:

and writing educational papers.

Oana:

I still have my 20 years background of formal methods, theoretical computer

Oana:

science, so it's, um, I'd say I bring a new perspective to this, but I'm getting

Oana:

more into the education side of things.

Oana:

Yeah.

Geri:

Yeah,

Matt:

Luckily I don't really have a discipline, so I don't have any hangups

Matt:

jumped around all over the place.

Geri:

which will be interesting to come to, but, um, Matt, I heard you

Geri:

talk about lots of different roles that you play and I'm going to see if I

Geri:

can summarize them or play them back.

Geri:

So, um,

Geri:

there's your basic stance coming into it, which is really about how can I

Geri:

support people and how can I help?

Geri:

them.

Geri:

And, and everything that you do is oriented to that.

Geri:

And even to the point of putting out a request for anonymous

Geri:

feedback, where you don't know what's going to come back at all.

Geri:

But that genuine saying to people, I want to do a good job at supporting you.

Geri:

That's a really important message.

Geri:

I like the way you talked about, and I'm going to use my own words here

Geri:

of holding up a mirror in a way to Oana to say, this is what you're good

Geri:

at, because people get lost in the details and don't see the day to day.

Geri:

Um, you talked about playing a sponsor role, in promoting her and using your

Geri:

networks to help her achieve those sorts of commitments, as well as That really

Geri:

lovely, um, uh, you know, and I know that one of your programs is a graduate

Geri:

apprenticeship program, but almost that apprenticeship model in bringing people

Geri:

together to collaborate on a project.

Geri:

And it's not strictly master apprentice.

Geri:

It's, as Oana said, coming with different background and experiences.

Geri:

And then the way you also were clear that you accepted, well,

Geri:

I think it's significant.

Geri:

It says something about the relationship that Oana felt able to

Geri:

say about the, the experience report.

Geri:

This isn't working.

Geri:

There are many leadership relationships where you would

Geri:

not be comfortable saying that.

Geri:

And that you said, Oh, great feedback.

Geri:

Let's see what we can do with this.

Geri:

So, I just thought they were worth pulling out.

Geri:

And I also heard, you said about just contacting someone to say I've got this

Geri:

great person who could come and give you a talk and it didn't take much time.

Geri:

And that's the other thing that these really small micro

Geri:

moments that don't take much time

Matt:

Yes,

Geri:

can just be so impactful.

Geri:

Mm

Matt:

yes.

Matt:

In some ways, again, thinking about this in advance, it's quite terrifying

Matt:

that those little interactions, those little actions can make a difference.

Matt:

Because it goes both ways, right, you could do something that seems innocuous

Matt:

to you and it could set someone off, um, on a very, on a different path.

Matt:

And I've experienced that myself.

Matt:

Um, you know, even little bits of feedback can make all the difference.

Matt:

Um, something that occurred to me was, and Oana has mentioned

Matt:

this about student support.

Matt:

A lot of what we do to support our students and the way we interact

Matt:

with our students is directly applicable to how we treat our team,

Matt:

how we treat our colleagues, it's recognizing that those people are

Matt:

individuals that those are people.

Matt:

And I think what's very easy when it becomes your job to sort of treat.

Matt:

them as a target or a task and lose that people focus.

Matt:

Um, because every failure and every success and every up and down that I feel

Matt:

or one feels can be felt by everyone else.

Matt:

And you know, when you start to boil it down to think, well, I've got 13, 14

Matt:

annual review interviews to do this year.

Matt:

It's not a number.

Matt:

Each one of those is an individual person.

Matt:

And that's the way we should be treating our students.

Matt:

And that applies also to our staff.

Matt:

And.

Matt:

I was thinking back to my student career.

Matt:

I was a terrible undergraduate student.

Matt:

Um, um, uh, you know, I, I came back and did a master's later

Matt:

to try and, make up for that.

Matt:

And I did.

Matt:

But even during that period, it's the, it's the, it's the lecturers,

Matt:

the teachers who went the extra mile.

Matt:

I could see that they cared.

Matt:

And that's what inspired me to actually do some work, you know, and even when I

Matt:

came back to do my master's here in this school, actually, I can still remember

Matt:

20 years later getting a particular piece of positive feedback from a lecturer

Matt:

called John O'Donnell, you'll, one I might know, um, that I still remember now.

Matt:

And it was a piece of writing.

Matt:

It wasn't technical.

Matt:

I mean, I'm not, The world's greatest programmer, right?

Matt:

I'm better with words, but I still remember his feedback on that written

Matt:

piece of work, and, you know, that made all the difference, potentially to my

Matt:

career, because later on, maybe I'm jumping ahead here a little bit, but

Matt:

I was, I was working, as a systems or research systems developer, but

Matt:

teaching on the side, because I wanted to, and that was my way into teaching.

Matt:

And then a lectureship came up in my own department, in my own subject area,

Matt:

where I was teaching and where I had received a teaching award from the

Matt:

university, but I was told I wasn't allowed to apply for the lectureship

Matt:

because I didn't have a PhD, right?

Matt:

So, this is a long way of saying that I don't think I would have

Matt:

had the confidence, potentially, to even think about doing a PhD if

Matt:

it hadn't been for that little bit of feedback, you know what I mean?

Matt:

It's that terrifying thing, that little, um, It's not quite a sliding

Matt:

doors moment, but it's that sort of, you know, that little moment where

Matt:

something has stuck, and then years later, it's had a huge impact on my life.

Matt:

Um, if that makes sense.

Matt:

So I think if you think about feedback to staff as well as feedback to

Matt:

students, it can be transformational and By the same token, potentially

Matt:

damaging if you're not careful.

Geri:

Yeah, totally.

Geri:

And the, the fact that the impact, as you said, is years on, like

Geri:

invites us to always bring care to our interactions, doesn't it?

Matt:

Yes, um, yes, I've done some work with role modeling with

Matt:

some colleagues, Virginia Grande and, uh, Päivi Kinnunen and others.

Matt:

And it's about what we role model as educators and that

Matt:

means also leaders as well.

Matt:

So it's role modeling interactions, role modeling emotions and, and so on.

Matt:

I guess we do it as parents as well, right?

Matt:

It's what you role model is what's going to, people are going to pick up on.

Matt:

I think that's really important to, to bear in mind, but it's not always easy.

Matt:

As reflective and empathetic as you can be.

Matt:

Um, we all have bad days.

Matt:

You know, and I think, um, there's two sides to that.

Matt:

There's being mindful that the person you're talking to could be

Matt:

having a bad day, could be, you know, some kind of mental health concern

Matt:

or something going on at home.

Matt:

And so maybe they've dropped the ball on something, but

Matt:

it's because of something else.

Matt:

But also, and this is where I struggle a little bit, we didn't

Matt:

talk about this in advance, but, um, if I'm having a bad day, right, my

Matt:

mental health isn't always great.

Matt:

And You really need to keep an eye on that because that can affect my or

Matt:

cloud my interactions with the team.

Matt:

Um, we can maybe talk about that a little bit more, but yeah.

Oana:

We experienced this in the team and.

Oana:

Then Matt came back and apologized.

Oana:

I've done this the same.

Oana:

So again, realized I wasn't, uh, yeah, I let my non work stuff, make me feel

Oana:

a bit more snappy, a bit more snappy in interactions with colleagues.

Oana:

So then acknowledging it and then just admitting to everyone and apologize.

Oana:

So that's, yeah, I think it's important.

Geri:

Hmm.

Geri:

The permission to be human, to have your good and bad days.

Matt:

Yeah, absolutely.

Geri:

Oana, do you want to say any more about anything else in response

Geri:

to what Matt's just been talking about?

Oana:

So I wanted to mention also his, uh, contributions and I think it's just

Oana:

dedication really to everything that, um, we have this award in the UK called Athena

Oana:

Swan, which is more related to, to, EDI, so Equality, Diversity and Inclusion.

Oana:

And he's been a great contributor in the school as well.

Oana:

Um, Like whenever I go to meetings, you'll say, people say, Oh yeah, Matt did that.

Oana:

Matt introduced this.

Oana:

Matt did that.

Oana:

And, we have to ask Matt.

Geri:

Mm.

Geri:

Mm.

Oana:

Um, so it's selfless involvement and bringing up new ideas of let's do this.

Oana:

Let's see if it works or not.

Oana:

Let's see how we can support people around us, um, to be more inclusive, workplace.

Oana:

And I know I've been on the Athena Swan a long time ago and then came back to it.

Oana:

Um, so we have, I'm looking for inspiration in this,

Oana:

um, in this area here.

Oana:

Yeah.

Geri:

I want to come back to that.

Geri:

, um,

Geri:

you also talked about, in this spirit of there's the ideal of how we might want

Geri:

to show up and the reality of just being human and maybe having good and bad days.

Geri:

And you also talked about past experiences, say with a colleague

Geri:

who pulled up the ladder and, and also the ways in which you

Geri:

learn from your own experiences.

Geri:

Maybe people aren't familiar with the pulling up the ladder to phrase.

Geri:

So it could be interesting just to unpack that.

Geri:

And I'm just curious about, you know, in terms of the pulling up the ladder

Geri:

and other experiences, what are some of the behaviors that you've experienced

Geri:

that you won't do, like, or the even mistakes you've made that you're

Geri:

trying not to do, because I think there are learning points as well.

Matt:

Yeah.

Matt:

I can start with the pulling up the ladder example, by which I mean, once

Matt:

someone has got onto the lifeboat or onto the ship, they can pull up the ladder

Matt:

behind them and no one else can follow.

Matt:

Right.

Matt:

So once they're okay, then they don't care.

Matt:

They, they almost put a barrier up.

Matt:

Um, and so, um, Some of the best bosses I've had have, for

Matt:

example, been supportive of my teaching ambitions, for example.

Matt:

When I was working as a systems developer, I had a great boss who

Matt:

knew, who understood that to get the best out of someone, allowing them

Matt:

to do at least some of what they want to do is probably a good idea.

Matt:

Uh, and they went to great lengths to make sure that I could do that.

Matt:

They also allowed me to embark on a PhD while I was working full time,

Matt:

which was great because You know, one of the perks of being working at a

Matt:

university, I guess, is that you can enroll in a PhD and not have to pay

Matt:

fees, which was quite nice, right?

Matt:

Um,

Geri:

are, just to clarify, you are a software developer within the university?

Matt:

that's right, yeah, for research projects, but um, I was also teaching on,

Matt:

on the side, um, just because I wanted to.

Matt:

And then when it became clear that I wouldn't be able to advance that aspect

Matt:

aspect of my career teaching without a PhD, um, I asked if I could start

Matt:

doing one and, It was focused on game based learning for higher education.

Matt:

So, um, again, it's learning, right?

Matt:

Again, you can see the interest in learning there.

Matt:

So that boss was great.

Matt:

Then I had another boss at another time.

Matt:

Who, we would probably call them microaggressions now, I would say, but

Matt:

was when they came in, they really didn't like the group I was part of, I wasn't

Matt:

the lead of it by any means, but they made it very clear that we weren't wanted and

Matt:

gradually people would leave or be pushed.

Matt:

And, all of us are still thinking about that every time that group of friends meet

Matt:

up, you know, 10 years later, we ended up just talking about this person again.

Matt:

Right.

Matt:

And it's really scarred some people, I think.

Matt:

So, yeah, I need to be careful what I say, of course, but, uh, I can feel Oana

Matt:

tensing, thinking, what's he gonna say?

Matt:

Um, so that's the person that told me I needed a PhD.

Matt:

I later found out that they didn't have a PhD, right?

Matt:

But they had got in and became professor, and that's what I meant

Matt:

about the, the rolling up the ladder.

Matt:

They were finding ways to say no, rather than finding ways to say yes,

Matt:

which is what the other boss was doing.

Matt:

They were finding ways of saying yes, within reason.

Matt:

This person was expending energy on saying no, if you know what I mean.

Matt:

They were finding ways to say no.

Matt:

Um, and so that's something I've picked up.

Matt:

I think I want to try and find a way of saying yes to things.

Matt:

The danger is saying yes to things that you can't do support or can't make happen.

Matt:

That's, I need to be careful about that.

Matt:

But, um, saying yes as much as possible is a big plus.

Matt:

One of the things that happened during that period was that this person, we

Matt:

were, we were being mistreated, right?

Matt:

Um,

Matt:

and I, I reported, I came and I went and spoke to someone senior about that.

Matt:

Um, and I used the bullying word.

Matt:

This is where it gets a little bit iffy, but we can always cut it, right?

Matt:

Um, and the response I got, I still remember this from the,

Matt:

from the senior person I spoke to, was a sort of slight smirk.

Matt:

Um, a sort of patronizing smirk at saying, Oh, but bullying's a very big word.

Matt:

Like, yes, I know.

Matt:

Uh, look, I'm quite upset.

Matt:

I'm visibly upset.

Matt:

I'm a grown man sitting here, quite upset in your office.

Matt:

Do you think I'm making, using that word lightly?

Matt:

Do you think I don't understand?

Matt:

Um, and that has never left me.

Matt:

So I think that as

Geri:

What that, that response,

Matt:

that response, that Yeah,

Geri:

was it a skeptical, not believing, like how do you

Matt:

I think it was,

Geri:

interpret where they were coming from?

Matt:

think it was skeptical and dismissive, I think partly because they

Matt:

just didn't, maybe they didn't believe me.

Matt:

That's one thing.

Matt:

Or maybe they thought I was being silly or overreacting.

Oana:

You know what gaslighting is?

Matt:

Gaslighting, yeah, that'll come up again, I think.

Matt:

But yes, maybe sort of gaslighting.

Matt:

There's also maybe the possibility that it would have been a massive

Matt:

inconvenience for them if this other senior person I was talking about Was was

Matt:

behaving this way, and they were right.

Matt:

So nothing happened with that.

Matt:

It was dismissed out of hand.

Matt:

Um, I think there are systems in place, certainly this university now

Matt:

where I could have dealt with that through other channels, you know, so,

Matt:

um, and this happened another time with another boss where a colleague.

Matt:

I observed another colleague, you know, essentially bullying or

Matt:

certainly mistreating other colleagues.

Matt:

And one of those other colleagues, one of my peers, just confided in me

Matt:

one day how it was making them feel.

Matt:

And so I felt obliged to take that up with with the boss

Matt:

and, um, nothing ever happened.

Matt:

If anything, the person who was behaving badly was probably, you know,

Matt:

exalted in more ways, you know, and that's my perception on it, right?

Matt:

There'll be different perceptions.

Matt:

It's all subjective.

Matt:

That was how I perceived that, how that played out, that what I had

Matt:

brought to the table did not fit.

Matt:

what the person wanted to hear and therefore it was swept under the carpet.

Matt:

It has fundamentally changed my relationship with both the person

Matt:

who was behaving poorly and the person to whom I reported it.

Matt:

Um, I have no respect for either of them to some degree, or I have

Matt:

little respect for either of them.

Matt:

If I find myself in that position where someone on the team was to come to me,

Matt:

someone visibly upset, someone who's maybe even sticking their neck out by

Matt:

I'm saying, bringing this difficult topic to my attention, if I don't at

Matt:

least respond to that, I have failed.

Matt:

You know, at the very least that person should go away knowing that

Matt:

I've listened and I will consider it.

Matt:

To dismiss that stuff out of hand is not acceptable.

Geri:

No.

Matt:

So that's, that's something I've learned from a negative experience or two.

Matt:

So I would, I would certainly hope I don't end up like that.

Geri:

Mm-hmm.

Geri:

Mm-hmm.

Geri:

Oana, do you have anything to add or to say from your own experiences or

Geri:

just reflecting on the, what Matt said?

Oana:

So this is to show again that in universities.

Oana:

There's a wide spectrum of experiences and can only hope that it's going

Oana:

to get better and people stand up for themselves, for the others.

Oana:

So we have this term bystander, active bystander now, so don't let things

Oana:

um, slip away for fear of, you know, um, having repercussions on yourself.

Oana:

Um, so yeah, standing up for for one another as well.

Geri:

And as you said, there are, there are changes happening where you said

Geri:

there are mechanisms now to report that and hope to have it taken more

Oana:

so.

Oana:

I hope so.

Geri:

Yeah.

Geri:

Yeah.

Geri:

Again, just illustrative of

Geri:

care in our relationships and not underestimating the huge impact a small

Geri:

action can have, positive or negative.

Geri:

And the fact that you all still talk about it years, years later,

Geri:

when you meet up says a lot.

Geri:

Yeah.

Geri:

So what sort of colleague do we want to be for each other?

Geri:

How do we want people to talk about us?

Geri:

. Matt: I think that there's something about, something that Oana brought

Geri:

up to me before and she's brought up today is that sense of belonging.

Geri:

And it's so easy for us to destroy or at least damage that sense of belonging,

Geri:

um, in ways that we don't intend.

Geri:

Um, so I think that's really important for people to feel like they do belong.

Geri:

I understand that.

Geri:

It's part of that, psychological safety and everything that

Geri:

we talked about before.

Geri:

But, um, there, there are things that leaders can do that can

Geri:

end up inadvertently damaging that sense of, of belonging.

Geri:

Um, again, speaking from experience in the past, I remember having a leader, a

Geri:

boss who kind of positioned themselves between the higher ups and what the

Geri:

team was doing and was maybe not even consciously taking, essentially

Geri:

taking credit for what you were doing.

Geri:

So it felt like, and I don't think it was intentional actually, really, if

Geri:

I'm honest, but unless you reflect on that and realize that that's how it's

Geri:

being perceived, that this looks like it's all your work, then that's going to

Geri:

damage other people's sense of belonging.

Geri:

They're going to feel like, well, what's the point in me doing this work?

Geri:

What if no one knows I'm contributing to it?

Geri:

So you feel a little bit disconnected from that.

Geri:

Um, the other thing is a little bit more subtle, I think, and it's this idea of

Geri:

the perception of having a favorite.

Geri:

Um, you know, I remember my line manager in one instance was kind of the boss's,

Geri:

the head of department's favorite, right?

Geri:

And that person did not want to change that relationship.

Geri:

So they didn't, sorry, my immediate line manager didn't want to rock the boat, as

Geri:

it were, or make themselves unpopular with this person who thought they were amazing.

Geri:

So that resulted in quite a spineless approach to management.

Geri:

They, they would never advocate for the team to the higher up because

Geri:

they didn't want to cause trouble.

Geri:

They just wanted to, you know, to enjoy their position of, of, of favor.

Geri:

So that's something to watch out for.

Geri:

But also, and this is, this is where I have failed.

Geri:

I haven't told Oana this, unless she's seen my notes.

Geri:

But, um, A member of the team did say to me that they were jealous of

Geri:

how I treated Oana and, and others.

Geri:

Um, that they perceived it as a little bit of favoritism.

Geri:

Now, I was able to address that and explain it's because we work so closely

Geri:

on the program together that naturally we're going to be working more closely

Geri:

together than Someone who we don't even teach the same courses, right?

Geri:

So I was able to address it, but it was a wake up call to me about how things can be

Geri:

perceived Because that person immediately then feels a little bit more distant.

Geri:

It damages that sense of belonging And I think that if I if they hadn't

Geri:

mentioned that to me I don't think as reflective as I think I am I don't

Geri:

think I would have picked up on that So, um, that's an interesting one.

Geri:

It's easy to, it's easy to fix some things and think, well, I won't be like that,

Geri:

but there's stuff happening that is so subjective that I just don't know how, how

Geri:

to address it before it becomes a problem.

Geri:

Yeah.

Geri:

Part of it is what you've done already though, isn't it, Matt, in creating

Geri:

an environment where people feel like they belong, feel like you're

Geri:

open and are able to bring it up.

Matt:

Yeah, that's true.

Matt:

I at least they did admit to it.

Matt:

Yes that I say that's good And I'm glad they told me because it gave me a chance

Matt:

to to you know Give my point of view and explain why that might be the perception.

Matt:

Yeah.

Geri:

Yeah.

Geri:

Because as you said, we don't often know how.

Geri:

What other people are going through, because they're human as well, and they're

Geri:

filtering their experiences through their own background insecurities, past bosses,

Geri:

um, yeah, there's lots, lots going on.

Geri:

So yeah, it sounds like that foundation of a good, open,

Geri:

supportive group is key for that.

Matt:

Yeah.

Matt:

Yeah

Geri:

Can I come back to what you said, Matt, about your

Geri:

mental health isn't always great?

Geri:

And Oana, you said in your email to me about having previously during your

Geri:

post doc phase experienced burnout.

Geri:

Can you both talk a little bit more about those sorts of issues

Geri:

I'll pick up on this question when I start off again in part two,

Geri:

which will be out in two weeks time.

Geri:

Apart from talking about their experiences with burnout and depression, we'll

Geri:

also be talking about their work as part of the learning, teaching and

Geri:

scholarship track, and their interesting innovative apprenticeship degree program.

Geri:

And there are lots of themes around access and inclusion there, as

Geri:

well as allyship and mentorship.

Geri:

So there's so much more to come in part two.

Geri:

You can find the summary notes, a transcript and related

Geri:

links for this podcast on www.

Geri:

changingacademiclife.

Geri:

com.

Geri:

You can also subscribe to Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

Geri:

Spotify and Google Podcasts.

Geri:

And I'm really hoping that we can widen the conversation about how

Geri:

we can do academia differently.

Geri:

And you can contribute to this by rating the podcast and also giving feedback.

Geri:

And if something connected with you, please consider sharing this

Geri:

podcast with your colleagues.

Geri:

Together, we can make change happen.

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About the Podcast

Changing Academic Life
What can we do, individually and collectively, to change academic life to be more sustainable, collaborative and effective? This podcast series offers long-form conversations with academics and thought leaders who share stories and insights, as well as bite-size musings on specific topics drawing on literature and personal experience.
For more information go to https://changingacademiclife.com
Also see https://geraldinefitzpatrick.com to leave a comment.
NOTE: this is an interim site and missing transcripts for the older podcasts. Please contact me to request specific transcripts in the meanwhile.

About your host

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Geraldine Fitzpatrick

Geraldine Fitzpatrick (Geri Fitz), is an awarded Professor i.R. at TU Wien, with degrees in Informatics, and in Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology, after a prior career as a nurse/midwife. She has International experience working in academic, research, industry and clinical settings. She is a sought-after facilitator, speaker, trainer and coach who cares about creating environments in which people can thrive, enabling individual growth, and creating collegial collaborative cultures. She works with academics and professionals at all levels, from senior academic leaders, to mid and early career researchers, to PhD students. She is also a mentor for academics and has been/is on various Faculty evaluation panels and various International Advisory Boards. An example of a course is the Academic Leadership Development Course for Informatics Europe, run in conjunction with Austen Rainer, Queens Uni Belfast. She also offers bespoke courses.