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Episode 13

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Published on:

26th Feb 2025

Oana and Matt (Part 2) on mental health, teaching path and reflective practice (CAL119 S6E13)

This is Part 2 of my discussion with Matthew Barr and Oana Andrei who work together in the Education and Practice Section in the School of Computing Science at the University of Glasgow. Oana and Matt each share their personal experiences with mental health challenges. Oana shares her journey from postdoctoral research to becoming a lecturer, highlighting how she dealt with burnout by taking up Taekwondo. Matthew discusses his long-term management of depression and the importance of normalizing such conversations in academic settings. We also talk about their learning, teaching and scholarship career paths, the significance of reflective practice and how it has been integrated into their teaching methods. They also discuss their commitment to inclusion and diversity in education, alongside their passion for teaching and the innovative graduate apprenticeship degree program they have implemented that widens access by enabling work-based learning and student support. The episode offers valuable insights into the importance of personal wellbeing, the role of supportive workplace environments, and what a teaching-focussed path can involve.

Overview

00:29 Episode Introduction

02:00 Picking up on the question about mental health

02:46 Oana Shares Her Experiences With Burnout

08:05 Matt Shares His Experiences With Depression

12:45 Choosing Teaching Focussed Career Paths

16:36 Oana Moving From Research To Teaching Track

19:06 Promotion Criteria in a Learning, Teaching and Scholarship Track

24:14 Apprenticeship Degree Program

31:50 Doing a Master in Education

34:39 A Framework for Reflection

38:52 Wrapping Up

39:18 Revisiting Belonging

44:09 Thanks For The Podcast

46:27 End

Related Links

Oana Andrei, Lecturer (Ass Prof) Uni of Glasgow  webpage and LinkedIn profile 

Matthew Barr (Senior Lecturer) Uni of Glasgow webpage and LinkedIn profile

The reflective writing resources Matt mentioned:

Their paper on how the apprenticeship degree program might widen access to HE:

  • M. Barr, O. Andrei and M. Kallia, "Widening Access to Higher Education through Degree-level Apprenticeships in Software Engineering," 2023 IEEE Frontiers in Education Conference (FIE), College Station, TX, USA, 2023, pp. 1-8, doi: 10.1109/FIE58773.2023.10343199.
Transcript
Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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Welcome to part two of my conversation

with Oana Ondrei and Matthew

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Barr from Glasgow University.

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In part one, we heard about what

good leadership with care really

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looks like, recognizing that everyone

is human and creating a sense of

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belonging through everyday practices.

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In part two here, we pick up

on the being human theme and

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the question of mental health.

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Oana talks about how she dealt with her

own burnout and Taekwondo figures in this.

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And Matt shares his experiences

dealing with his long term depression.

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We then shift to exploring their learning,

teaching and scholarship career path.

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How they got into this path,

and how they go about navigating

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criteria for promotion and so on.

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And they discuss their really

strong commitment to inclusion and

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diversity in education alongside

their passion for teaching.

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And we hear about their Innovative

Graduate Apprenticeship Degree

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Program that widens access by

enabling workplace learning.

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It's a great conversation, and I really

love the mutual respect and camaraderie

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that we can hear as they talk together.

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These are good colleagues.

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I hope you enjoy this part too.

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Can I come back to what you

said, Matt, about your mental

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health isn't always great?

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And Oana, you said in your email to

me about having previously during your

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post doc phase experienced burnout.

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Can you both talk a little bit more about

those sorts of issues and experiences?

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Because I think we often don't normalise

them enough as These can be part of our,

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like, everyday challenges dealing with

mental health or when we are in, you

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know, like, I'd be curious what were

the factors, Oana, that you thought

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contributed to the burnout experience?

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Oana: So I had like two

different experience.

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First was the burnout before being a

lecturer and that was me being, um,

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postdoctoral researcher being on a

temporary contract really with a young

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child and also being a young, like having

a young child being stressful enough.

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And at some point it just like,

added up and just blew out really.

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And afterwards have being a lecturer

because it was during the pandemic,

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the stress of trying to do my best

upholding myself to very high standards

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Geri: Uh, Um,

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Oana: top of the pandemic lockdown.

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Um, I, my son was, how was he?

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Was like six, seven years old that time.

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So homeschooling and everything else.

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I was like every term, I would

like going through a bit of a

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burnout, kind of like gradually.

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Getting better at identifying when

I'm gonna burn out, not making

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it less impactful, but still, um,

yeah, I'm getting better at it now.

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Uh, it's a sad story really to be getting

better at dealing with a burnout, but,

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um, yeah, we keep learning and I think

in the end I'm a better person because

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of all this hardship I've been through

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Geri: Mm.

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Oana: as a parent, as a, as

a person really, and also as

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a, as a, um, educator here,

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Geri: Mm.

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Oana: to help our students when they're

going through difficult times as well.

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Geri: What skills and techniques

have you developed to help

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you deal with it a bit more?

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Oana: So first of all is that I

have to take care of myself, like

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taking breaks and doing exercise.

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So one fun story is like, I picked up

when I was at my lowest point, um, as a,

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back in 2018, um, My son was going, he

was five, he was taking Taekwondo classes,

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and I was on the side, and the instructor

said, Oh, would you like to, to try,

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like, parents are welcome to, to join,

and he's like, Oh, I don't know, maybe.

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I went home, I searched,

what is Taekwondo good for?

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Obviously, I'm a researcher, I have to

analyze everything, is it good for sons?

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I was, like, really at a bad point then.

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Uh, so, okay, I was like, Whatever.

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I'm gonna go for it.

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There's no expectation whatsoever

from me, not like in the workplace.

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So I just went for it.

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And obviously, like a year

time I went to a competition.

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I said, Okay, I'll just

go for a competition.

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It was in Glasgow and

international competition.

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I said, I've never I've

not a sporty person.

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I've not been in the when I

was young, and I went for it.

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Just trying this stuff and

new things and Finding this.

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Yes.

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And I got the gold medal in sparring.

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Geri: Good on you.

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Congratulations.

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Oana: It was in my age

category and weight.

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So, uh, it's been interesting.

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And then went on and, um, again with

the pandemic and everything, I had to

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slow down maybe with some training, but

last year in the summer, I got my black

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belt, like first degree black belt, which

was really stressful to go in there.

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Um, but yeah, I've, uh, I've worked

hard for that one and got some more

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confidence in me trying new things.

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And also my body as well, like,

you know, certain age now,

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Geri: Mm.

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And I can see you beaming

there as you talk about this.

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Oana: I'm proud of it.

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Yeah.

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Geri: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And was it something you

discussed in the workplace?

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So for the pandemic situation,

you're already working with Matt.

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Was that something you could

come to the team and say, this

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is what I'm going through?

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How did you handle that aspect?

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Oana: Yeah, so at that time I was working

as, uh, within the program and, uh,

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graduate apprenticeship program, but

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I wasn't as confident back then to

communicate what I was going through.

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Maybe a posteriori, I would have, I

would say to my line manager and maybe

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to Matt as well, like, yeah, like I

need some, um, well, I could not take

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time off because it was so intensive.

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I could only like take

one day or something.

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Just reducing maybe whatever I

was doing and just doing the, uh,

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bare minimum for some periods of

time to get my, my teaching really

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done and all the admin work.

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Um, but nothing going like further

publications, research or anything else.

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But increasingly, I felt more

confident as I, as I got more

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familiar with the workplace

environment and the expectations.

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And then, as I was saying,

getting this sense of belonging,

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longer sense in the, in the group.

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Maybe a year after, I think I

remember I've I feel more confident

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and more comfortable, really,

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Geri: hmm.

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Oana: more comfortable, speaking

up and saying what works, what

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doesn't for me or for the, for the

program and the teaching, yeah.

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Geri: Yeah, lovely.

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Oana: And now I can say whatever I want.

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Matt: Yeah,

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Geri: And Matt, what about

your own experiences?

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Matt: Yeah, I, I totally agree that we

should be normalizing this, so I don't

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mind talking about it, uh, in a sense,

but you know, I've been medicated for

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depression for, I just realized, 25 years,

because, it was around about:

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I was finishing my undergrad that it

started, um, which may not have helped

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me with the old undergrad, maybe that

was my, uh, You know, um, I was doing a

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bit of self medicating, as it were, you

know, at the time, but, um, it means that

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I'm very conscious of the fact when I,

it's, you know, it's depression, right?

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So, if I hit a low,

put it this way, right?

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Um, work and interaction with

people can take quite a toll.

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you know, because you're putting on a

front and I kind of joke to Oana that

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I act a lot of the time and I do just

generally I act as a competent academic,

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you know, that, that's the role I play,

but, uh, but in more, more sort of, um,

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interactionally it's, I will put on a

good face, make stupid jokes, try and

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keep that consistent, that appearance.

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But every so often you just,

there's nothing left in the tank.

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to put up that facade, you know, like

when an actor's come off stage and they're

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just broken, I'm like, I can't do that.

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And that's when the mask slips.

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And, you know, I might say something

snippy or the kind of thing that,

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you know, I would have to own later.

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And I noticed sometimes when I would get

home after work, because I would, I'd be

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quite grumpy because I had, I had spent my

energy for the day on being nice, right?

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Yeah,

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Geri: The work face.

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Matt: exactly.

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Yeah.

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And that is exhausting.

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And I think on top of teaching,

which again, to my mind is something

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of a performance, you can be really

tired at the end of the day if

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you've taught for a couple of hours.

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Oana: Definitely.

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Yeah.

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Matt: And in the intervening period

been pretending to be this, you know,

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together, friendly, helpful person.

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Right.

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So by the end of the day, you

can be pretty, pretty drained.

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So I need to be mindful of that in

my interactions with others, but

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also mindful that they could also be.

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in that situation, right?

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Um, and that's why I really appreciate

when someone like Oana is open and

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honest with me now that I think it's

great that we have that kind of a

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relationship because then, well, we

can kind of help each other be aware of

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each other, you know, so I think that's

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Geri: Mm hmm.

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Mm.

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What do you do to look after

yourself, especially when the

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energy tank is on empty or low?

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Matt: Yeah, I just got

a glare from Oana there.

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Um, apparently not enough.

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Um,

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Geri: Mm.

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Mm.

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Mm.

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Matt: It is something I

struggle with a little bit.

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Um,

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I don't know.

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I think part of, part of the issue, and

this is going to sound really grim, I

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realized, but you know, if you've been

treated for depression for, for so

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long, you don't really enjoy anything.

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Right?

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So that sounds more grim

than I meant it to be.

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What I think,

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um, having a break from people, if I'm

honest, is sometimes just the best thing

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I can do just to recharge the tank.

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You know, I think that's, that's probably

the kindest thing I can do for myself.

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And there were a couple of times,

like when I was finishing my

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PhD, you know, I was working full

time as well as doing the PhD.

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So, I would use that as an excuse

to, well, for my birthday this year,

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can I get a couple of nights in a

hotel by myself so I and write up?

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And, yes, I did write up.

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I mean, that was, it

was, it was brilliant.

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I, you know, that's

great, but also probably.

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Thinking about it, I was just

getting a break from people.

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Um, so I still quite like that idea.

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I'm quite comfortable with

my own company, frankly.

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I mean, I'm a bit of a, I was

going to use a bad word there.

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I'm not a person I would want to hang out

with probably, but I'm fine on my own.

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You know, um, so I think that's, that's

the kindest thing I can do for myself.

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I quite like doing work.

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If I do take annual leave, I might

actually own work in a paper or something,

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but that's fine because it's on my terms.

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Um.

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If that makes sense.

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So that's the kindest thing I think.

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Geri: Mm.

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Yeah.

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Matt: Okay.

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I'm looking to Oana for approval.

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Geri: I like the look at the beginning

about you're not doing enough.

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Um,

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to have it taken more seriously.

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Oana: So.

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I hope so.

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Geri: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I move us on, because I'm really curious

about both of you choosing teaching and

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learning focused career paths because in

many institutions, it's research that's,

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that is sort of the gold standard and

valorized and you indicated Matt that

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when you were going for promotion, it

was a harder route and it's clear from

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both of you The passion that you have

for teaching and for the students

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and, what made you choose that path?

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What is it about it that you love?

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Matt: I think it took me a while

to realize this, but I've always

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enjoyed the teaching and there's

something about it's rewarding.

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It's potentially, if it's

not too grand a thing to say,

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it's changing people's lives.

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So the reasons I've kind of touched

on, you know, that The good feedback

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I've had or just having a good

teacher who clearly cares that

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that can make all the difference.

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So I think I was thinking back to this and

actually the first time I taught was so I

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barely scraped a degree first time around.

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It was actually in geology.

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Um, it's pretty random.

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Um, I was mostly just drinking

and trying to date all the

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girls in the class at the time.

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So, I was not a good student.

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But even then, there were a couple

of lecturers, I should say, who, I

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mean, I wouldn't have tolerated me.

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But they not only tolerated

me, but tried to help.

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You know, they were fantastic.

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Um, uh, Tim Dempster, Gordon

Currie, people like that.

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Ian Allison, I doubt they're listening.

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But if they are, you know,

they were the people who have

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stuck with me 25 years later.

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However After that, I

didn't use my degree.

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I went into IT support.

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And, um, in my final year at

uni, I was working in the library

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here at, uh, doing IT support.

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And I remember my girlfriend at

the time was, I could see her

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out studying for our finals.

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And I was sitting, working,

doing my IT support job.

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Tells you that it gives you a

clue as to how that panned out.

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Um, so anyway, I went

into an IT support role.

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But in a higher education institution.

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And I very quickly, almost immediately

saw an opportunity to teach.

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Um, this was maybe 2000, 2001,

something like that, probably:

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So it was before we had like Facebook

and stuff like that, where people,

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if they wanted to be an aspiring

musician, for example, a musician for

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hire, they would have a Facebook page.

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And it was a, it was a college

of, or a university of, of

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musicians and actors, right?

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So it was, that was the line of work.

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So I developed a little course, um,

to teach those people how to make a

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simple webpage, to promote themselves,

get found in, in, was Google there?

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I think Google had just started,

but get found online, right?

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And so they could, they could get work.

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Um, and that was at the time was

somewhat novel, but that was That was

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the first time I realized, actually,

this is what I want to be doing.

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I don't really care about building

the websites myself, right?

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I'm more interested in,

in, in the teaching.

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And again, that only happened

because I had a supportive boss.

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Like, you know, the head of IT support

was very comfortable with, or very, um,

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uh, friendly with the head of, um, finance

or whatever it was for the institution.

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And they managed to set it up

that I could do this, right?

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They had the, the.

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They created that opportunity.

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So that was an early example of me

realizing that I wanted to teach

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and I think I just find it much

more rewarding than the actual, what

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in my case would be programming, I

guess, is the actual, actual work.

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Geri: And Oana, you were in research

projects for a long time, as

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you said, in the formal methods.

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What was the trigger for you

switching to more of a teaching track?

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Oana: Yes.

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Well, initially I started

teaching in Romania.

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I was a, I had a tenured

position there, um, back in:

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Yeah, it was February, 2004.

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I was on research and teaching,

basically, but then I went away to

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France to do a PhD and then, yes, I've

been doing research for a long time,

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but still I was looking for a lecturer

position, well, initially in France.

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That's why I came here to get experience

abroad, to go back to France to

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have a good, a better application.

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To apply for a, for a job , in

teaching in universities in, in France.

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And then, yes, I've been doing

research for a long time.

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I think in a way it was convenient

for me as well, having a young child.

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And I enjoyed the, the research I was

doing, but still, I was looking for.

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Um, jobs around here didn't particularly

wanted to move and I've liked the

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environment here at the University of

Glasgow and when in:

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came, I've applied for different jobs

unsuccessfully and then this opportunity

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came for, um, what is called an LTS

role, learning, teaching and scholarship.

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Which was relatively new back then.

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So it's not just teaching, but it's

also scholarship, which basically I see

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it as research in computing education.

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I said, I enjoy that.

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And I think my experience also as a mom

really and as you say role model and

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trying to teach my son lots of different

things made me more interested in this

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aspect of education or how people learn

and I say yeah I'm gonna go for it

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and that's how I've um landed the job

this job and I'm still doing research.

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I'm still doing some

formal methods research.

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I have a PhD student on it, on

this topic, but mostly it's on

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computing education, uh, research.

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So it's um, and I don't have

the stress of having to apply

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for funding, research funding.

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So that's, uh, that's good.

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Geri: That's a good thing.

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Indeed.

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So what, you've, you said you've got a

matrix, a rubric for promotion criteria.

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What sort of things are you

aiming for to meet those criteria?

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Oana: Um,

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Matt: We can break it down into the

sections of the, there's the esteem.

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Oana: Yes.

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So the last one is the esteem.

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Then there's, um,

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Matt: impact,

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Oana: impact.

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Teaching and knowledge exchange, and

that's knowledge exchange and impact.

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So I think the teaching

part has the most weight.

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Geri: Hmm.

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Oana: Which I'm struggling a

little bit, as Matt was saying.

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Like, I'm doing my job here.

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Presumably well enough, but I'm

not developing like new programs.

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I'm not doing amazing stuff,

and that's where I'm a bit,

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um, stressed about, let's say.

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Uh, there's more expectation of being

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very much involved in designing new

learning programs, new experiences or

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whatnot, um, activities for students.

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Um, and I've, I've only, well, maybe

two years ago started to get my head

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above the water and be able to think

more broadly about these aspects.

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My first, I was just like trying to learn

how everything works and doing my, my job.

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Geri: Yeah.

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What is covered in impact

within a teaching track?

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Matt: Yeah.

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I mean, some of it's not dissimilar

to impact on the research track, but

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it's, it's maybe a little bit more about

being outward facing doing engagement.

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Um, so probably I mentioned the

Ada Scotland Festival that I run.

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That's something that I would

probably claim under there because

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it's reaching kids nationally, you

know, and it's involving lots of

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external partners, sponsors and

businesses and so on that are involved.

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Um, in an ideal world, I have.

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We have, we have one colleague

who is publishing stuff that

355

:

is being picked up by teachers.

356

:

So, they're actually on the more

traditional research and teaching

357

:

track, but it's a perfect example of

how pedagogy, pedagogical research can

358

:

have impact because the stuff that she

is designing is being picked up and

359

:

trialed by teachers in the classroom.

360

:

So that, that's a really nice

example of impact in our world.

361

:

But it doesn't have to be necessarily

You know, four star research resulting

362

:

in industry take up, you know,

it can be a little bit different.

363

:

So, um, it's tricky.

364

:

Again, it's one of those things

that's maybe less well understood in

365

:

our in on our particular job track.

366

:

Um, and I think Oana is being self self

deprecating in terms of, you know, she is.

367

:

She's deputy director

of our program, right?

368

:

So she is doing the leadership

stuff, which is a big part of

369

:

the promotion criteria, right?

370

:

There you go.

371

:

Yeah.

372

:

You pull, you're doing the job.

373

:

Um,

374

:

Geri: I'm pulling a face here to go, duh.

375

:

Matt: yeah.

376

:

Yeah.

377

:

Um, somebody got a recognition

and rewards, uh, last year because

378

:

somebody was doing a really

good job, you know, uh, yeah.

379

:

So

380

:

Oana: I almost forgot that.

381

:

I remember last year I was, breaking

down at some point because I could not do

382

:

something and then oh my god and then I

admitted to Matt and said, Oh, remember,

383

:

he said, Oh, I completely forgot this.

384

:

Oh, yeah.

385

:

Oh, okay.

386

:

Matt: Yes.

387

:

Geri: you needed that mirror again.

388

:

Matt: Yes.

389

:

And there was there was irrefutable

evidence that had gone to our head

390

:

of school, was signed off by probably

the head of college or whatever

391

:

said, yeah, this person can get the

recognition and reward this year,

392

:

right, because they're doing a good job.

393

:

So um, yeah, that's the kind of evidence

we can put forward for promotion, right?

394

:

Geri: It's great.

395

:

You've got a line manager boss who

can help remind you of all of the

396

:

evidence that you actually have.

397

:

Matt: you help me with mine too?

398

:

Geri: And so there are two areas

that we could go in and whether

399

:

we cover both or one or the other.

400

:

So one is in focusing, having this

teaching focus track and having

401

:

this education and practice section,

which is like formally saying this

402

:

is important in our school in,

are there any particular teaching

403

:

innovations that you'd want to share?

404

:

And I noticed that you just had a book,

for example, published on web based, uh,

405

:

work based learning in higher education.

406

:

And the other aspect, and

they may connect, is you both

407

:

clearly have a passion for.

408

:

Inclusion and diversity and Matt, you're

an amazing ally for a lot of these

409

:

gender based and inclusion initiatives.

410

:

And Oana, you have talked about

being committed to these initiatives

411

:

in the past and in ongoingly.

412

:

So something around the

teaching innovations and

413

:

the whole inclusion at work.

414

:

Matt: Sure.

415

:

Yes.

416

:

One of the reasons I moved to computing

science from, from my previous

417

:

subject where I had the not so great

boss was the opportunity to work on

418

:

this apprenticeship program because

it looked like an opportunity to

419

:

improve access to higher education,

to improve inclusion, if you like.

420

:

Um, cause that's what I'd read

about apprenticeships because if

421

:

people aren't familiar with it.

422

:

You're doing your degree.

423

:

You will still get your degree

in software engineering from

424

:

the university, but you're also

working and therefore getting paid.

425

:

Geri: Ah, okay.

426

:

Matt: Yeah, so that immediately

removes or at least ameliorates a

427

:

sort of financial barrier for people.

428

:

Right?

429

:

So, and it also gives them a leg

up in terms of their career because

430

:

they're graduating with four years

work experience as well as the degree.

431

:

Um, so that was what actually attracted

me to do it in the first place.

432

:

And, It's not necessarily the focus

for our school, so we can take school

433

:

leavers with the highest possible grades

coming out of school, right, because

434

:

supply and demand, we don't need to be

widening access, right, as a school into

435

:

our subject area, because computing is

competitive, um, and we can take the

436

:

straight A students, but that means that

all of our students are kind of quite

437

:

similar coming from particular backgrounds

and it's not particularly inclusive

438

:

in some respects, in some respects.

439

:

Um, so the apprenticeship is kind of

almost a way of improving access by

440

:

stealth because, um, we negotiated to

have a slightly lower entry tariff.

441

:

So the grades you have to

get to get onto our program.

442

:

Are a little bit lower than the

regular program, and the way that

443

:

I present that is, oh, it's so

that I can meet employers halfway.

444

:

If they see potential in someone,

then they only have four B's, you

445

:

know, when the tariff is five A's

or something, then I can say yes.

446

:

But it's more than that, right?

447

:

It's also so we can get those people

who clearly have talents, clearly

448

:

have ability, but for whatever

reason, which may not be anything

449

:

to do with their academic ability,

have B's instead of A's, you know?

450

:

So, we have actually done one paper

on this, and we could do more, on

451

:

how the program has widened access.

452

:

Things that it has done is there are

people who were kind of forced to

453

:

go to university or sort of pushed

towards university without any

454

:

advice or any kind of, you know, they

didn't, maybe they had poor advice

455

:

from school or they were forced into

a subject they didn't want to do.

456

:

Um, I had one.

457

:

There was one girl, one female student

on our first cohort of apprentices

458

:

who told their careers teacher

they were, they like computers.

459

:

So the advice was, OK, then you

should do admin at university.

460

:

Do a degree in admin.

461

:

Right.

462

:

So that's what they did because they

did what their teacher told them.

463

:

Um, but then years later, you know,

in our late 20s, she comes back

464

:

to do the apprenticeship with us.

465

:

And that's only possible

because at that stage in life.

466

:

You have more bills, you have

responsibilities, um, the only

467

:

way that she could do that was by

having a paid job at the same time.

468

:

So a lot of the students that we

have on the apprenticeship, not, we

469

:

have a mixture, but certainly it's

more varied than the regular program.

470

:

Some of them have tried university

before, um, and it hasn't worked out.

471

:

Often it's because they've had to

balance another job in order to

472

:

pay to get them through university

because of their socioeconomic

473

:

background and their responsibilities.

474

:

So they've been working in a pub or

working in McDonald's and just it

475

:

ends up that they drop out of uni

because they can't balance both.

476

:

Now they can come back to us

and do this degree with us

477

:

with that financial security.

478

:

So that's important.

479

:

I think that both of us

that the program can.

480

:

can support those people,

attract those people.

481

:

Um, and it seems to be working.

482

:

Geri: Brilliant.

483

:

Yeah.

484

:

Oana, do you want to add anything

and point out any other sort

485

:

of innovations in teaching

486

:

Oana: So the way this program is

designed is to have more competency

487

:

based learning, uh, embedded into some

courses, especially the work based.

488

:

assessment courses.

489

:

These are year long courses in the

final years, in the senior years,

490

:

where students are taking projects in

their workplace, um, mainly supervised

491

:

by, uh, their line managers in the

workplace, but also they have like a

492

:

light touch supervision with academics,

uh, from our program in the university.

493

:

And While they're doing their, carrying

out the work on their projects,

494

:

they also have to set up a portfolio

where they evidence the competencies

495

:

they've achieved during their

projects or in the workplace, really.

496

:

So we have some, um, framework.

497

:

Of competencies based on the more

general engineering framework in the UK.

498

:

And in addition, they also have to

write a reflective essay on how they've,

499

:

um, when they really reflect on how

they've achieved this competency.

500

:

So that helps them.

501

:

really know better, know themselves

better, know what are their strengths,

502

:

what are their weaknesses, especially

as they go from one year to another,

503

:

they have two reflective essays.

504

:

They know from one year, okay,

I've done this, I've achieved that.

505

:

Next year, okay, I'm going to work towards

these new competencies, competencies in

506

:

terms of, as we call them, knowledge plus

skills and professional dispositions.

507

:

Um, so this is, no other course, I think,

in computer science where students can

508

:

be so reflective of their learning.

509

:

So I think it's very useful, especially

for, um, future or like already software

510

:

engineer practitioners if they, when

they go into the workplace to know

511

:

their strengths, if they want to apply

for further, um, accreditations, they

512

:

can easily put something together and

yeah, just know themselves better.

513

:

I think this is, I was new to

this reflective practice when I

514

:

got into this role of learning,

teaching and scholarship, and I

515

:

really like it and embraced it.

516

:

I'm not as good because I'm formal methods

person, bullet points and formulas.

517

:

I'm getting better at, at, at it.

518

:

So still a

519

:

Geri: But it's the thinking

behind it, isn't it?

520

:

Not how it's expressed on paper, that's

just sort of the external manifestation.

521

:

Do you want to say any more

about that reflective journaling?

522

:

Because sounds like you're

also trying to apply it to

523

:

yourself and your own own role.

524

:

Is that what you're saying?

525

:

Oana: Yes.

526

:

Because, well, in the end, I'm, um,

527

:

at the University of Glasgow and many

universities in UK, like all of them,

528

:

you have to, take, um, what is it called?

529

:

P Cap.

530

:

It's a postgraduate

531

:

Matt: certificate.

532

:

Certificate

533

:

Oana: in teaching practice.

534

:

Uh, so I, I did that when I started,

um, because I wasn't doing enough in the

535

:

first year while it was mandatory anyway.

536

:

And then because of

537

:

Geri: In the pandemic?

538

:

Oana: in the pandemic and because

of my role I had to do some two more

539

:

courses and then I said okay if I can

do more to get a postgraduate diploma

540

:

in academic practice and where I had

to be yes more reflective in different

541

:

aspects and also being um carrying out

educational research and then I said

542

:

okay I'll just go for it all because I

don't pay for it so I'm gonna I'm doing

543

:

a master in education so now it's the

final year dissertation that I'm doing

544

:

at the moment, which I'm a bit behind.

545

:

I have to admit it's,

it's really funny to be.

546

:

So when I started, I was a lecturer

and a student at the same time.

547

:

Um, well, funny in the sense that

it's just brings me down to earth.

548

:

Seeing, understanding what

students are going through.

549

:

I've asked for many extensions for my

coursework, uh, in the past few years.

550

:

And even now, like yesterday, I met with

my supervisor for Master in Education and

551

:

I was like, oh my God, I didn't do much.

552

:

Okay, I'm gonna work harder

from the next few months.

553

:

And I say, yeah, this

is what my students say.

554

:

The same, you know, it, it's, it's funny.

555

:

But um, yeah.

556

:

Still learning.

557

:

Geri: So you just mentioned that, as

a by the way, that on top of your day

558

:

job, you're doing a master's program

559

:

Oana: Yeah.

560

:

Geri: in education.

561

:

Oana: Yeah.

562

:

Well, I've got my black belt now.

563

:

I can,

564

:

Geri: You've got your black belt.

565

:

Oana: I can do.

566

:

Geri: this is your

black belt in education.

567

:

Oana: I'm not going to

do a PhD in education.

568

:

No, that's fine.

569

:

I think

570

:

Matt: that's really interesting though,

but you've reflected on the fact that your

571

:

students are going through the same thing.

572

:

What I find, I totally just do not

understand is how all of our lecturers

573

:

have been through this process where

they've had to do this course and

574

:

have had pieces of work to turn in.

575

:

And they've invariably.

576

:

Drop the ball on some of them, but

they can't seem to make the connection

577

:

between that and their students

coming and asking for an extension.

578

:

So particularly for our apprentices,

because they're juggling work

579

:

and university, I've asked all of

our colleagues if they ask for an

580

:

extension, just give it to them.

581

:

It's like you doing your postgraduate

certificate, you're balancing two

582

:

things, and yet they're both compulsory.

583

:

You have to do them both.

584

:

Um, and the disconnect that people

seem to have in their heads, that,

585

:

well, that's not the same as me, that's

something different, this is a bad

586

:

student, it's like, well, no, they're,

they're, we're no better, frankly.

587

:

I mean, academics and deadlines is

a whole podcast in itself, right?

588

:

It's, it's, I just can't understand why

people don't have that empathy or that

589

:

reflective capacity to realize that

there's probably a good reason for this.

590

:

It's not just because they've been lazy

or their time management has been bad.

591

:

The time management.

592

:

I've seen in some colleagues

is astonishingly bad, right?

593

:

So, um, yeah, I just thought it

was interesting that Oana there

594

:

has reflected on that Um, and, uh,

595

:

realize that, yes, it's the same

for our students, you know, so I'm a

596

:

big fan of the reflective practice.

597

:

And it is weird that we do that so much in

a computing science degree on a software

598

:

engineering degree, but I literally

teach it in the first week of first year.

599

:

I give them a framework for reflection

because it doesn't come naturally to

600

:

students from, particularly from that

kind of mindset or background, I think.

601

:

And see it in colleagues as well, right?

602

:

It's, um, but I'm, I assess these

fellowship applications, um, associated

603

:

with learning and teaching practice.

604

:

And you can spot the ones that have come

from the hard sciences or the computing

605

:

science versus those from the humanities

because the folks in humanities are

606

:

much more used to writing like that.

607

:

Um, whereas, you know, one wouldn't

expect a formal methods person

608

:

necessarily to take to that as well.

609

:

So I think it's a really useful

skill for everyone to have.

610

:

Geri: And that's interesting because

I was actually going to bring that up.

611

:

I, I always ask for a reflective component

as part of the courses I've taught.

612

:

And it's always a struggle with

computer scientists or people from the

613

:

computer science background to you.

614

:

Hmm.

615

:

Hmm.

616

:

argue the value.

617

:

So I'm really curious, could

you share a little bit about

618

:

the framework for reflection?

619

:

Because it sounds like it's good for

students and it's good for all of us.

620

:

It could be a useful framework.

621

:

Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

622

:

So, um, I can provide a

link to it, which might

623

:

Geri: Oh, excellent.

624

:

Thank

625

:

Matt: because I can't remember

exactly where I got it from

626

:

off the top of my head.

627

:

But, um, basically it gives,

it gives the students, first of

628

:

all, a kind of, uh, phrase bank.

629

:

a sort of set of vocabulary to use,

which, um, you know, doesn't, as you

630

:

know, I, I quite like writing, I quite

like words, so I don't struggle with

631

:

that necessarily, and I'm, I can easily

reflect in my shortcomings, that comes

632

:

naturally as well, um, but having a

phrase bank where they can literally

633

:

construct sentences and then plug in

the details, and then I, I see that

634

:

as the kind of, uh, what do you call

them, the Uh, the stabilizers on a bike.

635

:

Eventually that can come off.

636

:

It's like the scaffolding and that,

you know, once they've practiced

637

:

that, they'll be able to come up

with those sentences themselves.

638

:

But there's also sort of different forms

of reflection we can introduce them to.

639

:

Sort of looking back,

but also looking forward.

640

:

And making sure that they can

close the loop and say, well, this

641

:

is what I've learned from this.

642

:

So next time I will do that.

643

:

So, I mean, I can rattle through it all in

half an hour in class, but it gives them

644

:

the tools just to make it less daunting.

645

:

Like, there's nothing more

daunting to a computing scientist

646

:

to say, here's a blank page.

647

:

Now write me some reflections.

648

:

Geri: Yeah, yeah.

649

:

Matt: an algorithm, I suppose,

you know, a formula that they can

650

:

apply and really get used to it.

651

:

Geri: Do you still have a reflective,

a written reflective practice, Matt?

652

:

Matt: Do you know, I don't actually.

653

:

Um, probably the last time I did it was,

well actually that's not entirely true.

654

:

Probably the last time I went for

promotion I had to do a little

655

:

reflective piece and I will have to

do it again if I go for the Principal

656

:

Fellowship of the HCA or something.

657

:

So I will have to do it again but there's

nothing systemic, there's nothing in

658

:

place where I have to do it really.

659

:

Um, which is interesting.

660

:

I hadn't thought of that.

661

:

Geri: Yeah.

662

:

But, but you do also sound

naturally reflective, you know,

663

:

in all that you've talked about.

664

:

Matt: Yes.

665

:

Yes.

666

:

I just don't write it down, I guess.

667

:

Oana: When we have the, at least I know,

when we have the annual reviews, the,

668

:

that, that's where some reflection,

a lot of reflection has to go in

669

:

there, uh, to see what went well,

what didn't, and where to improve.

670

:

You got feedback from students, then

you have feedback from a line manager,

671

:

and you have to put it all together

672

:

Geri: Mm.

673

:

Oana: move on to the next year.

674

:

Geri: Lovely.

675

:

I want to keep talking, but

I know we're up against time.

676

:

Um, are there any things that you

wanted to say here that we haven't

677

:

talked about yet, that you just want to.

678

:

mention in closing.

679

:

Matt: Sure, yeah, I think.

680

:

No, I think we've pretty much covered it.

681

:

Geri: A short interjection here.

682

:

You'll recognize this next part from

part one, and I took the liberty of

683

:

including it in part one because I

thought it actually, went to the theme of

684

:

leadership that Matt was talking about.

685

:

And I want to repeat it here because

I just think it's so important

686

:

about that sense of belonging

and what we can do to create it.

687

:

So over to Matt.

688

:

Matt: No, I think we've

pretty much covered it.

689

:

I think that there's something

about, something that Oana brought

690

:

up to me before and she's brought

up today is that sense of belonging.

691

:

And it's so easy for us to destroy or

at least damage that sense of belonging,

692

:

um, in ways that we don't intend.

693

:

Um, so I think that's really important

for people to feel like they do belong.

694

:

I understand that.

695

:

It's part of that, psychological

safety and everything that

696

:

we talked about before.

697

:

But, um, there, there are things

that leaders can do that can

698

:

end up inadvertently damaging

that sense of, of belonging.

699

:

Um, again, speaking from experience in

the past, I remember having a leader, a

700

:

boss who kind of positioned themselves

between the higher ups and what the

701

:

team was doing and was maybe not

even consciously taking, essentially

702

:

taking credit for what you were doing.

703

:

So it felt like, and I don't think it

was intentional actually, really, if

704

:

I'm honest, but unless you reflect on

that and realize that that's how it's

705

:

being perceived, that this looks like

it's all your work, then that's going to

706

:

damage other people's sense of belonging.

707

:

They're going to feel like, well,

what's the point in me doing this work?

708

:

What if no one knows

I'm contributing to it?

709

:

So you feel a little bit

disconnected from that.

710

:

Um, the other thing is a little bit more

subtle, I think, and it's this idea of

711

:

the perception of having a favorite.

712

:

Um, you know, I remember my line manager

in one instance was kind of the boss's,

713

:

the head of department's favorite, right?

714

:

And that person did not want

to change that relationship.

715

:

So they didn't, sorry, my immediate line

manager didn't want to rock the boat, as

716

:

it were, or make themselves unpopular with

this person who thought they were amazing.

717

:

So that resulted in quite a

spineless approach to management.

718

:

They, they would never advocate for

the team to the higher up because

719

:

they didn't want to cause trouble.

720

:

They just wanted to, you know, to

enjoy their position of, of, of favor.

721

:

So that's something to watch out for.

722

:

But also, and this is, this

is where I have failed.

723

:

I haven't told Oana this,

unless she's seen my notes.

724

:

But, um, A member of the team did

say to me that they were jealous of

725

:

how I treated Oana and, and others.

726

:

Um, that they perceived it as

a little bit of favoritism.

727

:

Now, I was able to address that and

explain it's because we work so closely

728

:

on the program together that naturally

we're going to be working more closely

729

:

together than Someone who we don't

even teach the same courses, right?

730

:

So I was able to address it, but it was a

wake up call to me about how things can be

731

:

perceived Because that person immediately

then feels a little bit more distant.

732

:

It damages that sense of belonging

And I think that if I if they hadn't

733

:

mentioned that to me I don't think

as reflective as I think I am I don't

734

:

think I would have picked up on that

So, um, that's an interesting one.

735

:

It's easy to, it's easy to fix some things

and think, well, I won't be like that,

736

:

but there's stuff happening that is so

subjective that I just don't know how, how

737

:

to address it before it becomes a problem.

738

:

Geri: Yeah.

739

:

Part of it is what you've done already

though, isn't it, Matt, in creating

740

:

an environment where people feel

like they belong, feel like you're

741

:

open and are able to bring it up.

742

:

Matt: Yeah, that's true.

743

:

I at least they did admit to it.

744

:

Yes that I say that's good And I'm glad

they told me because it gave me a chance

745

:

to to you know Give my point of view and

explain why that might be the perception.

746

:

Yeah.

747

:

Geri: Yeah.

748

:

Because as you said, we

don't often know how.

749

:

What other people are going through,

because they're human as well, and they're

750

:

filtering their experiences through their

own background insecurities, past bosses,

751

:

um, yeah, there's lots, lots going on.

752

:

So yeah, it sounds like that

foundation of a good, open,

753

:

supportive group is key for that.

754

:

Matt: Yeah.

755

:

Yeah

756

:

Geri: Yeah.

757

:

Oana, anything in wrapping up?

758

:

Oana: Just to say I love your podcast

episode and it's been very helpful

759

:

along the years listening to your

discussions with all your invite.

760

:

Yeah invited people.

761

:

And, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's been

a, it's been a journey learning

762

:

about, like I've started in 2016.

763

:

I was thinking, when did I

start listening to podcasts?

764

:

And I went back to this and

it's like:

765

:

So yours, because I was working

with HCI people, I think that's

766

:

how I found about your podcasts.

767

:

Uh, yours was the one about

universities, people and culture,

768

:

university, academic life.

769

:

And then I had others with mental

health as I was going through my ages

770

:

and then, uh, self help podcasts and

health and well being in general.

771

:

So these are like some core

podcasts I've been following and

772

:

been very helpful along the years.

773

:

In some cases, like

extremely helpful, really.

774

:

So thank you.

775

:

Thank you again for your work.

776

:

Geri: Thank you.

777

:

Thank you, Oana.

778

:

That's lovely to hear.

779

:

And I'm so grateful to have had this

conversation that Oana, that you reached

780

:

out, to point, point me to Matt and that

together you've just been such wonderful

781

:

guests and sharing, and this will be

really useful for lots of other listeners.

782

:

So thank you for being

part of it, both of you.

783

:

Matt: Thank you.

784

:

Thank you for having us.

785

:

Geri: You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

786

:

links for this podcast on www.

787

:

changingacademiclife.

788

:

com.

789

:

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

790

:

Spotify and Google Podcasts.

791

:

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

792

:

we can do academia differently.

793

:

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

794

:

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

795

:

podcast with your colleagues.

796

:

Together, we can make change happen.

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About the Podcast

Changing Academic Life
What can we do, individually and collectively, to change academic life to be more sustainable, collaborative and effective? This podcast series offers long-form conversations with academics and thought leaders who share stories and insights, as well as bite-size musings on specific topics drawing on literature and personal experience.
For more information go to https://changingacademiclife.com
Also see https://geraldinefitzpatrick.com to leave a comment.
NOTE: this is an interim site and missing transcripts for the older podcasts. Please contact me to request specific transcripts in the meanwhile.

About your host

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Geraldine Fitzpatrick

Geraldine Fitzpatrick (Geri Fitz), is an awarded Professor i.R. at TU Wien, with degrees in Informatics, and in Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology, after a prior career as a nurse/midwife. She has International experience working in academic, research, industry and clinical settings. She is a sought-after facilitator, speaker, trainer and coach who cares about creating environments in which people can thrive, enabling individual growth, and creating collegial collaborative cultures. She works with academics and professionals at all levels, from senior academic leaders, to mid and early career researchers, to PhD students. She is also a mentor for academics and has been/is on various Faculty evaluation panels and various International Advisory Boards. An example of a course is the Academic Leadership Development Course for Informatics Europe, run in conjunction with Austen Rainer, Queens Uni Belfast. She also offers bespoke courses.