Graham McAllister (Part 1) on career pivots: academia to industry to startup (CAL120, S6E14)
Graham McAllister reflects on his various career pivots, starting with a PhD in computer graphics in Belfast, transitioning through roles in academia and industry and then forming and later selling his games usability start-up. In the process Graham provides a masterclass on how to navigate and negotiate career pivots, how to articulate clear problems and solutions. The conversation highlights the value of bridging practical and theoretical domains, the role of luck and other people, and the need for continuous learning, reflection and adaptation in your career journey while being very clear about the strengths and passions that underpin this.
Overview:
00:00 Episode Introduction
03:01 Welcoming Graham
03:43 Early Career and PhD Journey
04:49 Transition to Industry
06:01 Straddling Academia and Industry
07:54 Return to Academia and Music Technology
13:34 Influence of Gary Marsden
17:41 Joining University of Sussex
21:18 Starting a Spin-Out Company
21:52 Balancing Academia and Startup
25:24 Challenges and Reflections
31:37 Academic vs. Industry Conferences
32:32 Critical Thinking in Video Game Development
33:28 Startup Challenges and Team Building
34:32 Marketing Through Education
40:56 Leadership Reflections and Authenticity
48:35 Selling the Company and Moving Forward
56:20 End
Related Links:
Graham’s Home page
and LinkedIn page
People he mentions: Ricardo Climent and Gary Marsden
Mentioned in this episode:
Call to sign up for next online Academic Leadership Development course
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Transcript
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
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:I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is
a podcast series where academics and
3
:others share their stories, provide
ideas, and provoke discussions about what
4
:we can do individually and collectively
to change academic life for the better.
5
:My guest, Graham McAllister, has
had a fascinating career trajectory
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:with many pivots, starting with a
PhD in computer graphics in Belfast.
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:And transitioning through
roles in industry and academia.
8
:Eventually focusing on the video
game industry where he founded and
9
:later sold a successful company that
addressed usability issues in games.
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:He's now exploring his next career
pivot, and we'll continue with that
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:story in part two, but for part one here.
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:You don't have to be in the games industry
to get something out of this conversation.
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:Graham is an engaging storyteller
and he is also really thoughtful.
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:He will likely have you reflecting on
what you are doing and where you are
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:going in your career as you listen
to how he reflects on the when and
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:why of his different career Pivots.
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:And he's so clear about the value he
offers to people and what he cares about.
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:It's a masterclass in how to
identify and communicate a problem
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:that other people have and that
you have the solution to help them.
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:This is relevant, not just for
selling services into industry.
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:But I think for any of us
researchers defining focused research
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:agendas and writing proposals,
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:what's the problem?
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:Why is it important and
what's our solution?
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:This is a wide ranging conversation
and we also touch on lots of other
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:issues including around leadership
and the role of luck that we've heard
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:many times before, and the importance
of others who help shape our careers.
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:There's a lovely story here about
the pivotal impact of the late Gary
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:Marsden that really opened Graham's
eyes to the human computer interaction
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:perspective that became his career focus.
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:This is such a rich conversation
and so interesting that we kept
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:on talking much longer than
is reasonable for one episode.
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:So I look forward to bringing you
part two where he discusses what
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:happens next on that Spanish Island.
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:Graham McAllister, thank you for
joining me today on the podcast.
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:Graham: Geraldine,
hello, it's been a while.
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:Geri: And it's been a while because,
for full disclosure, Graham and
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:I worked together briefly back,
um, I think it was:
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:There was a two, two year window
there when we were both at
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:University of Sussex together.
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:And Graham, apart from just the excuse
to catch up, I thought it would be
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:really interesting to talk to you
because you've had an interesting career.
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:And before we pressed record,
you were joking about being on
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:career, what, four or five, you're
still trying to decide which.
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:So you started off doing a PhD at in
Belfast in music technology, was it?
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:Or some music related computing area?
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:Graham: It was computer graphics,
originally, and already you can
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:see the problem here where my
careers are, you know, because it
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:looks like it was a music path.
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:But it was actually very low level
computer graphics, like image
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:compression, like JPEG or MPEG.
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:So there was those algorithms
that squash, squash video.
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:It was that type of stuff.
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:So back then, as a 18, what age
are you when you do your PhD?
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:21 year old, whatever it is.
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:I was very much, you know, Uh, very
dismissive of human computer interaction.
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:So, when we talk about that,
the idea of backtracking on your
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:own thinking, do a complete 180.
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:I've done that a few times in
my career, which is interesting.
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:I thought, who would study
human computer interaction?
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:What a preposterous idea, where it ended
up being my career for over 20 years.
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:But anyway, so I was not that guy.
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:I was very much low level
computer programming.
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:That was my PhD, yeah.
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:Geri: And then you went and worked
in industry for a little bit.
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:Graham: I did because we were, I say
we, I mean the group of PhD students
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:among us, we were quite, um, we looked
at the lecturers who taught us and
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:we decided we would not be like that.
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:I probably alienated all the
lecturers who taught me, by the way.
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:But what we meant was, if we were going
to teach building software, we wanted
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:to understand not just Theoretical
side of building software, but the
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:commercial side, which what's it like to
build it under certain conditions and a
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:company setting on a commercial setting.
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:So we decided that the path I was
on back then was I would go and get
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:some industry experience for a few
years, but we would always come back.
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:To academia, and then then when
we taught students would say, but
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:an industry, here's how you might
modify this theory or modify this
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:framework, blah, blah, blah, you know,
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:Geri: I, I actually did the
same thing now that you say it.
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:One of the reasons why I was happy to
work in industry, not that I had a clear
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:plan to, that I was definitely coming
back to research, but I was interested
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:in how relevant was the stuff we were
doing within a research context when
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:you took it into an industry context.
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:And that was, that was interesting.
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:Graham: very much.
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:I think one theme from my careers that
I've had, I guess, is when we talked
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:about this earlier, but in the deep in
the brief beforehand, but straddling
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:this division, if it is a division
between academia and industry, and
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:do they have to be separate and how
closely related they feel separate.
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:In fact, one of the.
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:When we talk about some of the criticisms
I've experienced with academia, so
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:when I moved to industry, the, um, the
perception of people in the industry
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:of academia is not always positive.
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:In fact, it's rarely
positive in my industry.
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:So trying to shed that skin of,
I'm not an academic anymore.
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:This is actually, this is real.
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:You know, it's like you're playing
around in academia, but industry is
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:perceived as the real world, let's say.
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:Um, so you're right that it was
this, uh, academia does some
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:great, great things, obviously.
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:But it comes with an image attached, and
it can impact on students perception,
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:even us as students being taught.
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:We were, we were querying, is this real?
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:Because we could see what was going
on in the industry even, this is pre
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:internet days, 92 I started my degree.
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:And we knew, you're teaching us
languages we will never use in
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:the real world, even back then.
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:So why are we, we were always
querying and pushing the academics.
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:Um, so again, that pushed out,
in a way, pushed us into the,
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:pushed us out of academia to say,
we're not going to be like that.
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:If we're going to teach something,
it has to be, has to have a
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:greater degree of reality to it.
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:It can't just be theoretical.
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:It's not enough.
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:It's not enough to teach the principles.
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:That's what we thought.
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:I would probably still say that.
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:I would still probably have that.
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:Geri: Yeah,
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:Graham: mindset, I think
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:Geri: if that industry academia
link bridging straddling, as you
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:said, is, is, um, a key theme.
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:So what, what was, you know, in part of
the straddling, what was the thinking
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:then to straddle back into academia,
having been working in industry?
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:Graham: it's back to what you originally
thought I was doing music, and I can,
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:I can see why you said, I know we're on
audio here, but there's guitars behind me,
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:and there's usually a piano beside me and
stuff I want to something more creative.
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:So my job that I got was
telecoms programming.
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:So telecoms is the 2000s telecoms
boom the internet's becoming popular.
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:So as a programmer doing.
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:Uh, that type of work, you
know, telecommunications work,
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:basically, and it was fine.
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:Solving puzzles is always interesting.
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:You've been a programmer.
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:You've done a compute CS degree.
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:So, you know, no matter if you're
writing a computer program, no
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:matter what it's for, it's probably
going to be interesting because the
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:puzzle is stimulating intellectually.
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:However, the output of that puzzle.
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:Was dreadfully boring.
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:No one cares about telecoms equipment.
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:Well, certainly I didn't as a 24
year old, 25 year old back then.
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:Um, so I thought, well, I like
programming, but I wonder,
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:could I take that and apply
it to something more creative?
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:And a friend said, why don't you
come and apply for a job at my video
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:game company he was working for.
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:And they were a very famous video
game company in England at the
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:time, I was still in Belfast.
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:And by chance at the same time,
a job posting come up in academia
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:at Queen's University Belfast
for music technology lecture.
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:And I thought, well, that's
a bridge between computer
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:science and music technology.
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:And that would fulfill my.
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:creative output, but I wouldn't have to
move to England because I'd have to move
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:country, even though it's a very small hop
across the bit of water, but it's still a
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:move away from things you know, I'd say.
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:Friends and family.
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:So that's where I ended up.
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:I ended up joining Queen's University back
in academia, um, but create, you know,
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:keeping both my technical interests, but
also having a creative, a creative output.
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:Um, but that would, that would change too.
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:Uh, and that introduced me to HCI.
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:I was there as a CS lecturer.
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:So I was officially belonged to the
computer science department, but I
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:was on loan to the music department.
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:That was the official structuring of
the contract, you know, the academic
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:Geri: Mm hmm.
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:Graham: but I did not
know what I was doing.
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:I was doing there really in terms
of what my research would be.
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:I knew I was back in and teaching
students computer science, but
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:from a research angle, like I
was, I was a blank slate again.
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:I was not building on my PhD.
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:It was not building on
my computer graphics.
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:They weren't interested
in image compression.
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:Um, nor was I anymore?
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:And I wasn't doing telecoms.
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:this is blank slate number three, it's
like computer graphics to telecoms, now
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:music technology, but I'm not really
using anything directly in terms of,
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:there's only the transferable knowledge
of computer programming languages, but
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:nothing, nothing was transferring, yeah,
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:Geri: How did you convince them
that you were going to be a music
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:technology lecturer when you're
just saying you, you know, computer
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:graphics, telecoms, programming?
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:Graham: I don't know, I think, I think
we'll have to ask them, and I think
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:one thing we should talk about is luck
in life, because I feel I have had a
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:lot of luck, including you, meeting
you, because I would ask you the
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:same question, why did you hire me?
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:Because I was not, I, I shouldn't
have got the job really.
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:You know, I think there was
always an element of luck and
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:I've had it quite a, quite a lot.
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:Uh, even ending up at Sussex, it
was another academic at Queen's
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:University who said to me, when was
the last time you had a job interview?
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:And I said, well, five years ago
when I got the Queen's job, and he
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:said, okay, I'm skipping a few bits
because I've moved to HCI or my
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:Geri: Mm.
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:Graham: was to move into human
computer interaction more.
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:And he said, okay, if you won't do
that, the next job, academic job
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:that comes up in the field of human
computer interaction in any UK
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:university, you go for an interview
to find out what people think of you.
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:That's what you should do.
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:He's now a professor at
Manchester in Ricardo and he's a
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:Geri: Mm hmm.
203
:Graham: So thanks to him, I
said, okay, I will do that.
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:The next job that came up was the
one that you posted or someone in
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:your department saying University of
Sussex is looking for a human computer
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:interaction lecturer, blah, blah, blah.
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:And I said, well, I should go
and find out what people think,
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:Geri: And, and I'm thinking back
then, I mean, we had some great
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:people applying for that position
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:there were two of you right
at the end that I remember we
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:were really tossing up with.
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:One of them was very much like me.
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:in the interest in that and the
thinking in the end was that
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:you brought something different.
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:So it was about, I don't know,
like opening up to more challenging
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:perspectives or different
possibilities for different points
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:of view and the fact that you were
focusing in more of the music space.
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:Um, and you, you had started to move
into games a bit by then, hadn't you?
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:Um, you know, so it felt like that
added rather than, uh, deepened, you
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:know, it added breadth and also, you
know, that diversity of thinking rather
221
:than sort of digging us more into what,
how, you know, what we already were.
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:I don't know.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:But we certainly, we certainly
interpreted you as an HCI person
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:and I think you had had a paper,
if I remember correctly, published
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:one of our key conferences as well.
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:Graham: Could have done.
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:So I had.
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:I had five PhD students, I think,
at that stage or something, and
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:we obviously had moved into HCI.
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:It was accessibility back then.
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:So that was the, my angle in, and
talking about luck, if I was to pinpoint
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:someone who maybe was influential
in, I don't want to say changing
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:my career, it was Gary Marsden.
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:Gary Marsden gave a guest lecture.
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:At the, exactly, at the, at the
research center, I was in the music
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:research center at the university.
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:And I was, I don't think I was in HCI at
the time, but I was looking to change.
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:I knew computer science was
not my, pure computer science
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:was not my final destination.
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:I was looking for this other outlet
and I was becoming more interested in
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:how people used what I was creating.
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:And I'd never heard of Gary Marsden
that was not interested in HCI.
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:And I went, somehow I
went to his lecture and.
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:I think he changed my life, because he was
talking, uh, I was just listening to his
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:research and the stories he was telling,
and I was like, no, that is something that
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:resonated with me, not his exact area,
because I was interested in video games,
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:but the problems he was talking about it
with saying, well, look, as technologists,
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:we can create this, these things, but if
people are frustrated by the way they're
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:not being utilized in the most efficient
or effective way, then what's the point?
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:And me listening to that, I was thinking
as a video gamer, I'm playing these games
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:and thinking, yeah, but there was probably
good intentions and they can build it.
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:My goodness, they could
have been so much better.
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:So I was thinking I could take
what he's talking about, but
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:apply it to my area of interest.
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:Is that a thing?
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:And that, that was a pivotal moment in my
life was Gary Marsden, you know, Talking
259
:about what interested him, but me hearing,
me filtering it and saying, I've got
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:the same problem in a different domain.
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:Geri: It's fascinating, isn't it,
how we never know how something
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:that we say or some random chance
interaction may impact someone's life.
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:And whether it's your lecturer
colleague who said, when was the
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:last time you went for an interview?
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:Like, just go on and have a go.
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:Yeah.
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:To Gary, just happening to
say yes to a lecture there and
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:not know, he wouldn't know.
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:And sadly, very sadly, he
passed away a few years ago.
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:Um, he wouldn't have known that there was
someone in the audience who was sparking
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:with possibilities from what he said.
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:Yeah.
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:Graham: Yeah, that's the thing.
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:Geri: it?
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:Graham: I should have sent him an email.
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:I know he passed away in quite a
long time, nearly a decade ago.
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:I think it's quite a long time ago.
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:Um, and I should have said to him, do you
realize what you said changed my life?
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:Um, and then impact probably hundreds
of millions of gamers as well,
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:because we'll get to the company side.
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:The impact.
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:And so the impact that that
random lecture on the impact,
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:like, yeah, a lot of people, I
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:Geri: Yeah.
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:Like not, as you said, I hadn't,
yeah, I hadn't even made that
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:connection, but yeah, but not
just you, but what has happened.
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:And I mean, I I'm immediately thinking
of individuals that I know who've
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:been involved as well as, you know,
the, as you said, the companies and
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:then the, the players of the games
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:Graham: players, exactly.
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:Geri: So that's a really nice point
as well about just the importance of.
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:stopping for whatever minute
or two it might take you to
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:ping a quick email to someone.
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:So if you're listening now and there's
someone who did impact your life, stop now
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:and just send that email and say thanks.
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:Yeah.
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:Graham: Definitely recommend it, because
I, that moment with Gary is gone.
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:And he wouldn't, he wouldn't know me,
I just would have been this random
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:email saying, Hey, I was, I was a
lecturer, I was sitting in your audience.
300
:But just letting him know that
he changed my life, you know, and
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:Geri: Yeah.
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:Graham: so thanks, Gary.
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:Geri: These are the things
that matter in life, isn't it?
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:So, not the, not the paper that you
got that you can't even remember,
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:was there a paper in that conference?
306
:So, you, so that's when our paths met
then, when you, you came to Sussex.
307
:Um, and I do remember you being
very good negotiator as well, you
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:know, which was really, I learned
a lot actually from watching.
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:And, so, You, by then, um, when you came,
you were bringing much more of a Games
310
:HCI sort of research identity with you.
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:Graham: yeah, they, I, um, like
most technical minded people,
312
:you know, um, at the time I made
a nice chart of pros and cons.
313
:Should I move university?
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:And should I move from
Belfast to Brighton?
315
:Um, and Belfast won on this little
organized neat chart, you know, all the
316
:pros and cons, but it didn't feel right.
317
:Which I
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:Geri: interesting.
319
:Like,
320
:Graham: didn't feel right.
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:There was more ticks in the Belfast.
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:Geri: So keep redoing the,
keep redoing the scores.
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:Graham: So, so I, I find that interesting.
324
:Well, why doesn't it feel right?
325
:Obviously not all information
was on the chart, you know.
326
:Anyway, um, and the reason is that You
know, there's a couple of questions
327
:I always ask whenever I'm pivoting
jobs, because I've done it a few times,
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:and this question keeps coming back.
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:And the question I ask
myself is, am I done yet?
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:Am I done here?
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:And so it's like, have I done
whatever I had to do in this
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:domain that I'm currently in?
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:But the other question that goes with
it is, is there something to do if I go?
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:Like, is there something, is there
something to do here, or something
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:to do there, sort of thing.
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:But why, What didn't sit in the chart,
I guess it would have been opportunity,
337
:I should have had a column that said
if I wanted to be in the game industry
338
:and bring human computer interaction
to the games industry, there was no
339
:industry in Belfast whatsoever in 2007.
340
:But Brighton was thriving and it
still is, you know, there was like
341
:30, 30 or 40 game studios in one
city or something like that, so.
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:Really
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:Different sizes, some are large and
some are mid sized, some are small,
344
:but there's probably more actually
now, including the small ones.
345
:So I decided, well, if I want
to do this, then you have to go.
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:You know, so that was the final, I don't
know if you remember this, but the very
347
:first meeting I ever had at the university
was not with anyone in the university
348
:really, it was with a games company, and
it was me, you, and another academic.
349
:We went to visit a game studio, uh,
to try and bring, you know, usability
350
:testing into their game making, and
that's the first meeting I remember.
351
:I don't remember meeting anyone,
like, in the university itself, but
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:Geri: I can't, I'm remembering it.
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:I think we.
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:As part of trying to help your
network in and we, I think we,
355
:I don't know what we did to set
up that as a, as a introduction.
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:Graham: I can't remember either, but that
was, that was wonderful knowing here I am
357
:as an academic and already, We're talking
to the biggest studio in Brighton at
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:the time, they were a very large studio.
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:And so this, this is exactly why I came.
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:So you could say, back to my, I'm
going to link together what I do
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:now with what, with then is vision.
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:I had a strong vision.
363
:If I'm doing it, this is the clear and
singular reason I'm going to Sussex, is
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:to bring HCI into the games industry.
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:I did not know at the time, however,
that I would have a company.
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:I thought it would be consulting.
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:So I remember looking at my
contract, my academic contract.
368
:I remember grilling someone about how
many days consulting could I do per
369
:month or per year or something like that.
370
:And my intention was I'm going
to max that out because I want, I
371
:need to bring this knowledge in.
372
:The game industry is a problem,
academia has the solution, and there's
373
:very little company, if there was no
company, really bridging that gap.
374
:So I thought I would do it
in my days of consulting.
375
:Um, and here's luck.
376
:The second area of luck we're going to
talk about at least is someone at the
377
:university said, hang on a second, by
chance, whenever I joined:
378
:the university was about to give a
fund To give academics to have these
379
:little small startups, and they said,
we're gonna have a small pot of money.
380
:And I was one of the first four
academics to get that little pot
381
:of money to start a spin out.
382
:So originally, so now the idea was going,
not just my consulting days, but I could
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:do this in a little, little spin out.
384
:Um, so that, that, that
ended up happening.
385
:I was one of the first four to
get that little pot of money.
386
:So we're, we're moving.
387
:Yeah.
388
:Geri: Yeah, I remember you moving up
the hill, I was setting up the, the spin
389
:out and do you want to just reflect on
then navigating, I don't know, because I
390
:imagine there are tensions between this is
the role of a lecturer and yes, there are
391
:consulting days, but you know, and this is
what's expected here and this is what you
392
:wanted to do in the startup and how you
navigated between the teaching, research,
393
:tick box commitments, From the lecturer's
side and the, and the, also the, what
394
:would be a significant commitment from
a startup side if you're going to take
395
:a startup seriously, because yeah.
396
:Graham: I, going in, I did not know
how messy that would become in terms
397
:of time management and just division
of resources, my resources, you know,
398
:um, I think, I think in the beginning
it was meant to be quite clear.
399
:I would teach so many days per week.
400
:I love teaching, by the way.
401
:That's another thread that I love.
402
:Education in general.
403
:Something I'd really, really enjoy.
404
:Um, But the, but what happened is I think,
um, the research side, uh, I didn't do
405
:so much, not because I didn't necessarily
want to, but I, my feeling at the time
406
:was the level of research that HCI is that
was good enough to bring the industry.
407
:In other words, I did not have to
advance it because it was already at
408
:a sufficient standard to bring it and
solve the problems that needed solving.
409
:So the problem I was solving was.
410
:The commercial side, there's no
business model really to, or it
411
:could be a psychology problem.
412
:The mindset of the game developers
was such that, you know, get off
413
:my lawn, I know what I'm doing.
414
:We do not need your psychology
nonsense, you know, here, sort of thing.
415
:Um, so the problems needed fixed were not
research problems, they were changing a
416
:shift in mindset at a commercial level,
which is you think you don't need this,
417
:but all the evidence says you need this.
418
:So my job was giving talks to try and
persuade them and show them with evidence
419
:that actually you will do better.
420
:You will get what you want.
421
:You're more likely to get what you want if
you use this tool rather than just dismiss
422
:it and let it go away sort of thing.
423
:So I ended up doing some teaching, very
little research, but again, the research
424
:was more me trying to commercialize
that and bring that into the,
425
:So, that lasted for a few years and
I realized that I couldn't do both.
426
:The time commitment, as you say, for
a startup is immense and I was, you
427
:can wear yourself down quite quickly.
428
:It's quite tiring.
429
:You know, um, so I decided I
needed to make a choice really,
430
:um, and that came from both angles.
431
:University wanted me to make a choice
and I realized I had to make a choice.
432
:And I decided,
433
:Geri: they were, cause I,
I had moved on by then.
434
:So they were pressuring you, like,
where are your research papers or
435
:you're not doing enough teaching?
436
:Like what was, what was their
point of pressure for you?
437
:I
438
:Graham: I think they wanted a commitment
really, is this, you know, are you going
439
:to take us into a company, uh, or are
you going to come back as an academic?
440
:Like I needed to choose a path, really.
441
:I think they wanted a clear cut decision.
442
:That's my memory.
443
:It's going back over a decade, but I
think they wanted a clear decision.
444
:Are you an academic or are you a
founder of a company sort of thing?
445
:Um, and it ended up, I
resigned from both positions.
446
:So the spin out and the academic job.
447
:And I said, well, I think this
needs my time all the time.
448
:I think there's something here.
449
:So I quit both.
450
:And then I, I just did
the commercial thing.
451
:I started a new entity
away from the university.
452
:Back to the perception problem
of, I think we said earlier.
453
:I think one of the things holding me
back was perception of academia, and I
454
:know that I was trying to get contracts
done when I was in the startup, and
455
:there's real time and there's academic
time, and academic time runs at about,
456
:well it's much slower, that's it.
457
:Geri: It's a little slower, a
458
:Graham: a little slower.
459
:Geri: time.
460
:Graham: And I think, uh, I'd certainly
had clients at the time who felt
461
:the frustrations of academic time.
462
:Uh, it wasn't going to
work for them effectively.
463
:So, and the image as well,
academia is seen as slow and
464
:expensive and not real world.
465
:Those are
466
:Geri: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
467
:Graham: Um, perception
that I needed to change.
468
:I remember telling someone,
well, we're now in the center
469
:of Brighton or something.
470
:I'm away from the university,
we're in the center of Brighton,
471
:and they were just overjoyed.
472
:They were like, oh, thank, you
know, thank goodness sort of thing.
473
:It's not a commercial, it's a company.
474
:You work on company time, you
know, real time, real world time.
475
:And I didn't expect that.
476
:I didn't know that was a thing
that I would have to negotiate.
477
:To navigate, um, being part
of a university the time.
478
:So that was, that was interesting.
479
:And then
480
:Geri: So can I just, um, so you've
just talked quite, so it's one thing
481
:transitioning topic areas from computer
graphics and software engineering to.
482
:music technology to games to, to start up.
483
:So there's, um, there's the topic
sort of shifting, but it feels like
484
:there are very different skill sets
needed between, I don't know, more
485
:of a standard lecturer in your first
lecturing job to doing a startup.
486
:And you talked about, you know,
talking to industry and that would
487
:be very different talking than
giving an academic presentation.
488
:Can you reflect on what were the key
skills you needed to develop in order
489
:to shift from that more academic
mindset, you know, including what we
490
:just said about the time, to something
that's more relevant to industry?
491
:Graham: I think there's, so I've
mentioned, not necessarily a mental model,
492
:but some of the questions I ask myself if
I'm ready to pivot, like, am I done here?
493
:Geri: Mm.
494
:Graham: The other, there's another
question, which tries to tell me
495
:the type of problem that I work on.
496
:And I would relate this back in some way.
497
:Maybe my PhD, but it's how important
is the problem that you work on
498
:and so whenever I think about the
problem I'm working on, I try and
499
:put it into a hierarchy of all the
problems I know about in that domain.
500
:So let's talk about
video games for a second.
501
:My domain, let's say, was video games.
502
:That's where I was trying to apply my
academic knowledge and whenever we,
503
:like some of my students even did this
as master's projects, but whenever you
504
:critique or analyze the reasons why video
games get a high score or low score,
505
:like what are the problems with them?
506
:Usability issues were a major problem.
507
:Like they were coming up in game
reviews or user experience problems.
508
:So this was a significant problem.
509
:So I knew that If I'm talking to, if I'm
in an academic talk, sometimes academics
510
:talk about things which are, you know, the
400th most important thing of all yet, but
511
:there's an interesting problem for them.
512
:Why not?
513
:If you've got funding to do it, knock
yourself out, go and work on it.
514
:But in industry, if it's the
400th most important problem,
515
:no one's coming to your talk.
516
:Usability, however, directly
related, it's going to be one of
517
:the highest related problems, which
is especially in free to play.
518
:Talk about luck again.
519
:The business model changed
when I started my company, the
520
:business model of video games.
521
:So I'm going to lose track of
what I'm talking about here,
522
:but it's very important because.
523
:Pre 2010, let's say, if you spent
50 dollars on a video game and it
524
:was terrible, well, tough luck.
525
:You know, the company's got your 50.
526
:2010 ish onwards, it was free.
527
:So if you, if the user experience or
usability was not top tier, you made
528
:no money because that player had left.
529
:And what's worse is you'd maybe
spent 1, 2, 5, 10 dollars to acquire
530
:that person, because it costs money
to bring people into your game.
531
:So you make no money up front, and
your impact is worse, it's negative.
532
:You're spending money to bring people in.
533
:And you only get money if the user
experience of your game is sufficient
534
:that they spend money, let's say.
535
:I'm generalizing, I'm cutting
a few details out, but
536
:that's generally the model.
537
:That was luck.
538
:If I'd have started my company 10
years before, it may not have worked.
539
:So again, back to the business side
is, when you're lecturing or giving a
540
:talk at a games conference, I'm talking
about a problem that they are seeing.
541
:And their KPIs on a daily basis,
which is, hey, we paid for 100,
542
:000 players to come into our game,
and there's only 10, 000 left.
543
:Where did they go?
544
:Well, a lot of them could have left for
usability UX problems, and that was the
545
:problem my company was solving, and I
spelt that out clearly by showing that,
546
:um, I give one talk a month for nearly
10 years in a row on this type of topic,
547
:probably more, um, about that sort of
number, so I give a lot of talks saying,
548
:if you want to know what's wrong, this
is probably one of the major factors
549
:Impacting your bottom line and why you're
not getting the reviews that you want.
550
:That,
551
:Geri: yeah,
552
:Graham: to me, was a common sense.
553
:You know, you've got a problem,
and of course, if I'm starting a
554
:company, I'm doing it for a reason.
555
:I think, I think you've got the problem,
and I think I've got the solution.
556
:That's what businesses do.
557
:That's what they do, right?
558
:Geri: yes,
559
:Graham: So, if you don't think
you've got the problem, there
560
:must be a miscommunication.
561
:Why aren't you seeing the problem?
562
:By the way, a lot of them
are not seeing the problem.
563
:They wanted to say something else.
564
:Like it was oversaturation of the marker
or somebody else's psychological problem.
565
:Well, it couldn't be me.
566
:Couldn't be our game
because we're experts.
567
:So obviously the problem
is somewhere else.
568
:And my job is to stand up and say,
no, the problem's not somewhere else.
569
:The problem's actually.
570
:View.
571
:In fact, that problem continues
when we get to my current career.
572
:That problem has got worse.
573
:I would say the problem is not elsewhere.
574
:The problems with the team, you
know, but so anyway, that's an
575
:academic versus commercial talking.
576
:I think academics sometimes talk about
problems they're interested in, but
577
:sometimes they're not that critical to.
578
:There's a small group of
researchers worldwide who do that.
579
:You know, you've got these research
disciplines that are very small
580
:niche groups and that's fine.
581
:That's okay.
582
:But if you're talking at a conference, um,
usually people want problems solved and
583
:addressed and you have to figure out, am I
presenting my problem in a way that, that
584
:the people in the audience care about?
585
:You know, and that's,
that's, it's just common.
586
:I thought it was common
sense, but maybe not.
587
:I don't know.
588
:What were you thinking by the way?
589
:Cause What do you see the difference
between, like, academic conferences
590
:and, let's say, industry conferences?
591
:Do you see a difference between the two?
592
:Geri: yeah, I think there are, I
haven't been to that many industry
593
:conferences, main ones would have
been in the healthcare space.
594
:It is also the case of what are
their immediate pain points,
595
:um, what are their immediate
problems and what can you help with?
596
:Graham: Yeah.
597
:It's the evidence behind that.
598
:I would say that, especially in video
games, I think a lot of teams don't, um,
599
:look towards the science of the problem.
600
:They tend to just have a, I, I, yeah,
exactly, gut feel or, well, I saw this,
601
:so, you know, it must be true, right?
602
:I will do A lot of guesswork intuition.
603
:And it's nearly always wrong.
604
:Like, there's a lot of bad.
605
:Decisions being made because they should
do what academics would do and say,
606
:well, what do we know about this field?
607
:Do we do a literature review?
608
:Do we apply critical thinking?
609
:There's very little critical thinking.
610
:They don't know the limits
of their own knowledge.
611
:They say, well, I know this,
but they don't know what's
612
:the counter argument to that.
613
:What do we, where do we know where that
applies and where that doesn't apply?
614
:Or what's the three other
arguments that could apply
615
:here or three other frameworks?
616
:They don't do, at least what I see, very,
very little of that type of thinking.
617
:It's just, here's a problem.
618
:Geri: A lot of our
cognitive biases playing out
619
:Graham: Yeah.
620
:Geri: in that context.
621
:So in, in doing the startup
proper, like starting your own
622
:company in the center of town,
623
:, there's also lots of other aspects
that are more mundane, like budgets
624
:and projections and marketing and
multi faceted, you know, not just the
625
:core work that you get excited about.
626
:Did you employ people to do that
stuff or were you doing it all?
627
:Can you talk about assembling the team
that you, you built up in that company
628
:Graham: There were teams of researchers,
so everyone was a researcher,
629
:including myself in the beginning.
630
:Um, anything mundane, like, I
don't like accounting that much,
631
:but I love business models.
632
:I'm quite familiar.
633
:I'm quite, don't say mathematical, but
I'm comfortable in that world, let's say.
634
:So the company ran on a very simple
spreadsheet, for example, but in
635
:terms of doing the accounts that was
immediately outsourced to someone else
636
:because it was not my area of expertise.
637
:It's not an area of expertise
that I wanted to get good
638
:in or anything like that.
639
:Marketing's an interesting one, though,
because I never called it marketing.
640
:I called it education.
641
:Geri: Oh interesting,
642
:Graham: told you, for example,
um, I give one, roughly, I'm going
643
:to average it out here, one talk
per month at a games conference.
644
:Um, and every, nearly every talk
I would give, we would get work.
645
:So some people would say, Oh, you were
doing marketing then, but it wasn't, I
646
:was explaining why you had this problem.
647
:It just happened that if I explained
the problem well and showed them they
648
:had the problem, they wanted to hire
us to fix it, to fix the problem.
649
:So we never had any, uh, I don't
remember, I don't remember spending
650
:one pound on an advert ever.
651
:During the whole course of
the startup, there was none.
652
:We didn't have a website for the
first three years from memory.
653
:Maybe two or three years.
654
:That's only because someone
said, are you a legit company?
655
:I'm like, yeah, we're, we're flat out.
656
:We're busy.
657
:And they said, I can't
find you on the web.
658
:And I'm like, well, no, we're
too busy to have a website.
659
:So I eventually put a website up
660
:Geri: Mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm,
661
:Graham: to say we're here, but we
were, we were completely booked
662
:out, you know, um, so it's back to
this thing that I, I love education.
663
:I love explaining to people.
664
:I'm an introvert.
665
:I do not like, if there's, if there's
an event or a space at the back
666
:of the room where I can hide, that
would be, that would be me, you
667
:know, but I also give a lot of talks
publicly, which is complete opposite.
668
:People must think, Oh,
you love giving talks.
669
:That's not true.
670
:But what I love doing is explaining
to people the problem that
671
:they're facing, and if you do this
thing, your problem will go away.
672
:It's helping people.
673
:You call it education, you call it
help, you call it what you want.
674
:That I find fascinating.
675
:And of course the book goes along with
that, The Researcher Brain, which is my
676
:current journey around team psychology
and shared mental models and things.
677
:It's the going deep into, why
aren't you seeing this problem.
678
:And then the other question, why
isn't there a solution to that
679
:problem, which I had to go and
design for the last five years.
680
:So doing all that, and then, and then
getting to tell people about it, like,
681
:by the way, the reason you're having
this problem is not what you think it is.
682
:It's something else.
683
:And the good news is we can fix that.
684
:And that bridges, again, I had to go
and do research and go back to school
685
:again, to be a student, to bring
that back into industry and to a very
686
:practical, we're jumping around a
little bit here, but I think all these
687
:things are connected in terms of.
688
:Yeah.
689
:I don't really call it startup marketing.
690
:It was just, I don't think you're
seeing the problem that you have.
691
:You're attributing the
problem to something else.
692
:You're not seeing it correctly.
693
:There's a great quote I found out
only a few weeks ago by Einstein.
694
:I'm going to butcher it, but it's like
the quality of what you see depends
695
:on the quality of your mental model.
696
:Like the model you use to see the
world completely dictates what you see.
697
:And my research, the results would show is
the reason you're not seeing the problem
698
:is the quality of your mental model
doesn't allow you to see the problem.
699
:So you're attributing it to something
else and you keep trying to fix the
700
:problem and the problem keeps happening.
701
:The problem is you can't
see it for what it is.
702
:You don't see the problem.
703
:So again, it's bringing it back to
mental models and things like that.
704
:Um, but that's the joy is now I get
to teach that and educate people and
705
:say, Hey, you thought it was this, but.
706
:What if I told you it was something else?
707
:Would you be interested?
708
:Wow, there's a discussion.
709
:That's, that's where we're at in 2025.
710
:I'm about to bring that
to the games industry.
711
:And I think, well, I know a lot of
them will not want to hear the answer.
712
:It's going to be, some people will
love it, but I think some people
713
:will say that can't be true.
714
:That can't be the reason.
715
:It can't be me.
716
:That's an identity problem.
717
:I'm an expert.
718
:I'm an expert in game development.
719
:Are you telling me I don't know?
720
:Yeah, I think that's
what's going to happen.
721
:Geri: It's a skill to have
that sort of discussion.
722
:I love, you know, apart from the specifics
of what you said, I love it as an
723
:example of tapping into your strengths.
724
:Like you've said, one of your strengths,
one of your passions is education.
725
:And it plays out, that this education
can play out in lots of ways, like
726
:it was probably part of the reason
why you went back to lecturing,
727
:I imagine, in the first place.
728
:And that There are still ways to do it.
729
:And I love that mental reframing.
730
:You know, if you talk about mental
models and that as well, you're
731
:standing up and giving a talk isn't
about putting yourself up there and,
732
:you know, like in front of all these
people and isn't it nerve wracking?
733
:It's about this is a great opportunity
to do that thing I care about,
734
:which is educating on a topic
that I'm really passionate about.
735
:And this is a way to connect to people.
736
:Graham: Yeah.
737
:I always thought of talking as educating.
738
:I never thought I'm giving a talk.
739
:I thought I'm going to go and
educate, reveal something that
740
:is new to what's in the audience
and their life will get better.
741
:You know, if I explain this thing
and if I do a good job explaining
742
:the thing, they're going to go away
thinking, wow, that problem I have,
743
:there's, there's a solution to it
and I understand more about it.
744
:That's a great thing.
745
:That's why we're in education, right?
746
:It's like, why do we do education?
747
:Let's go back to the fundamentals.
748
:Why do this job?
749
:It's not for money.
750
:If you're in education, there's a
reason, why do I want to spend my time
751
:discovering something, researching
something, finding an answer or going
752
:deeper into the problem and then writing
about it and telling people about it?
753
:Why do I do that?
754
:What's interesting about that?
755
:Because that's universal.
756
:That's not just the little discipline
you're doing your PhD in or your
757
:postdoc or whatever, you know, it
could be, it could be anywhere.
758
:You know, it could be
computer graphics, telecoms.
759
:It's the same type of thing, which is,
do we understand, but And if that's
760
:what drives you, the uncovering of
going deeper and understanding why
761
:and But it's also helping, right?
762
:Because if you share the knowledge,
sharing is a large part of it.
763
:It's not just, I did it for me
and I, I kept all knowledge to
764
:myself and that was the end.
765
:It's like, no, well, you went
and give a hundred talks or
766
:wrote a book or did something at
workshops or whatever it may be.
767
:That's elevating a group
or a team or a society or.
768
:You know, that's, that's a bigger mission
than just, well, I do research like,
769
:well, really is that what's going on here?
770
:I think it's bigger than that.
771
:You're not just doing research.
772
:Geri: Yeah.
773
:Yeah.
774
:Reminding us to connect to that, that sort
of drive and that passion underneath it.
775
:You mentioned team then, we're going
to move on to sort of a next transition
776
:pivot that you did, but, um, just in the
startup company, you, you built up a team.
777
:So that put you also in some
sort of leadership position.
778
:Again, can I just get you to reflect on
leadership skills that you had to develop
779
:or what you think was most important,
or, uh, you know, you may even have a
780
:story of things that didn't go well that
you, there were big learning points.
781
:Graham: I would say I'm very, I'm very
different now than what I was then.
782
:I think I would do it differently.
783
:Not surprisingly since going back and
studying organizational psychology,
784
:which we'll get to and studying
the science of team performance.
785
:The word I would use, what I know now is
that was probably authentic leadership.
786
:In other words, I was just me.
787
:There was no thought put
into leadership whatsoever.
788
:That was probably the truth.
789
:I started a company to solve a
problem and I was just purely
790
:focused on solving the problem.
791
:And I hired people to solve the problem.
792
:I didn't, I don't think I put
any effort really into team
793
:building or anything like that.
794
:But I did try to hire the people I thought
were the best and fit for the team.
795
:I mean, I know there's problems
with culture fit as well.
796
:So I just want to, it's not
necessarily culture fit, but, um,
797
:So I think it was more authentic.
798
:In other words, I was just being me.
799
:And that That took the company to a
certain stage, uh, not, not, maybe it
800
:was okay, but, um, I think, you know, you
don't need the same person for all stages
801
:of a company's growth that you're probably
better off not doing that in some ways.
802
:Um, so, yeah, I think, I think I was
very much focused on the technical
803
:side as a leader, even as very
much focused on my two main tasks
804
:were, can we do the job very well?
805
:Uh, and then this education piece
giving talks, telling the industry
806
:that, you know, um, what do we,
how are we solving your problems?
807
:Because there was a certain degree
of, the company started by only
808
:offering one single service, the
easiest one, usability testing.
809
:Like an MVP, you start small,
we offer this one thing, and
810
:Geri: MVP being.
811
:Graham: minimum viable product, which
is, you know, like I think every company.
812
:Every video game company has problems
with usability, like tutorials,
813
:feedback, controls, although there's
no one who does it really well
814
:or they could certainly improve.
815
:So I've been to find going into here's
another mental model or mindset.
816
:If I go into a conference, my
mindset was everybody in this room
817
:is a potential customer for me
because I think, or I can prove that
818
:they all have usability problems.
819
:So depending on your product or
your research area, you may go into
820
:a room and think, I think maybe
3 percent of the people here are
821
:the people I would connect with.
822
:We have similar interests or similar,
you know, or I could solve their problem.
823
:In my case, it was
always a hundred percent.
824
:If you're making a game, we can help you.
825
:There's no exceptions here.
826
:So that was my, my, I knew my MVP,
my, my, my little tiny service,
827
:service number one was applicable to
a hundred percent of the market, which
828
:is interesting for a business, right?
829
:But eventually we ended up like 10
services or something or whatever it was.
830
:Um, cause we developed more and more.
831
:Whenever you get to see a studio, you
realize, Oh, you've got that problem.
832
:Well, you know, giving computer
interaction can solve that problem too.
833
:So we ended up, so part of my brain
was developing or seeing new services,
834
:going and visiting clients, listening to
them, seeing their pain points, and then
835
:figuring out What I like getting this
bridge between academia and industry.
836
:I'm always looking for, is
there a method I'm aware of?
837
:That I could modify to fix that problem.
838
:It's very rare you would take it
completely as is and just, you
839
:know, apply it and it would work.
840
:So you're always thinking,
I recognize that problem.
841
:And if I modify this method, I think
I could do that or do it good enough.
842
:So we ended up with like, I say, seven
or 10 different services, a current
843
:member, depending on how you count
and then giving talks and educating.
844
:Um, but for leadership, um, no, I
think I was just being me at the
845
:time in terms of focusing on the.
846
:I think that's very product oriented.
847
:Is the product good?
848
:And I don't, I think I thought
if I hired good people, the
849
:team would take care of itself.
850
:I wouldn't do that now, I don't
think, knowing what I know.
851
:I'd probably build the team differently.
852
:But back then, I think that's what I did.
853
:Geri: So, let's come back to that, um,
later, just to step it through, because
854
:I think it'll make, your reflections
on that will make more sense then.
855
:And I'm just sharing that the picture
I have in my head is You've got this
856
:drive, this passion, this vision to
make this difference and you've hired
857
:people who stand with you like you're
linking arms and you're marching together
858
:and able to deliver this service.
859
:So it's leadership in that
you're bringing people with you,
860
:they're contributing to you
delivering on that passion.
861
:Yeah.
862
:Graham: I think, I think as well, if
you join a small company, there's a
863
:certain mission based element to it.
864
:Like you're not joining MegaGames
company X or Y, you know,
865
:you're I'm not doing that.
866
:I'm joining this, this small one.
867
:So I think you're attracting people
who are maybe more open to trying new
868
:things, which is the reason I don't
work for Megacorp X is because if I have
869
:a new idea, which I have a lot of, I
have a lot of ideas, but if I have an
870
:idea, I'm probably going to try it out.
871
:And if I feel like I can't
do that in Megacorp X.
872
:I don't want to work for you.
873
:And I've asked those questions by job
offers from certain people at the time.
874
:And I said, how do you work?
875
:How do you do your research
in your, in the megacorp?
876
:And I said, I specifically asked if I have
an idea, can I try that out that morning?
877
:And I said, definitely not, you know,
you will not get the chance to do that.
878
:This is our method.
879
:This is our way of working.
880
:And I said, well, I'm probably not
the guy for you because I'm probably
881
:going to try it because I think it's a
better idea, but I may fail sometimes
882
:and that's okay, but I will learn.
883
:That means there must be
something worth exploring.
884
:Otherwise it wouldn't do it for fun.
885
:I'm doing it because I think there's
a problem with the current method.
886
:I also think that if we try in a
systematic way, we'll probably get
887
:to a better solution at some point.
888
:Geri: Yeah.
889
:So that creativity again, coming
through again as a strong thing
890
:and obviously the, the freedom and
independence to just play that out.
891
:Graham: I've never really had
a boss, and you're making me
892
:say, think things through here.
893
:I've never really worked for a company,
apart from the telecoms one, but really
894
:you're worth working for yourself.
895
:Um, I think I've always
been wanted to try.
896
:Why don't you try?
897
:You know, are you doing something
because you're told to do it, or
898
:are you doing something because
you cannot stop thinking about it?
899
:And I definitely fall
into the latter category.
900
:Like, like for the company, I remember
where in the road I was standing
901
:when I realized I was going to quit
my academic job and start a company.
902
:I know exactly the bend in the
road because I, I stopped walking.
903
:My memory of that event
is I stopped walking.
904
:I stood still and went, I'm done.
905
:I'm going to start a company.
906
:I've only had that twice.
907
:That's strong.
908
:That was one.
909
:I knew I was going to start a company
doing, bringing HCI to the game industry.
910
:And the second one was my current
one on game vision, where I realized
911
:the last, the end of my career, I'm
at the last chapter, I would say,
912
:chapter of my career is game vision.
913
:And it's a team psychology
problem, not a player psychology
914
:problem, but a team problem.
915
:And that's going deeper into the problem.
916
:Why do we have a player
psychology problem?
917
:Why is HCI needed on the product?
918
:Because the team are the problem, so
there is a, that's the through thread
919
:here is that yes, you can put a band aid
over and say, we'll measure the product,
920
:we'll do user research and put a little
sticky plaster over the top of it and,
921
:you know, patch it up, but it's not really
addressing the problem fundamentally.
922
:It's more, well, why don't the
team know what they're making?
923
:And that's a shared mental model problem.
924
:Geri: You're reminding me of the
five whys, um, technique, isn't it?
925
:You're like, and why is that?
926
:And why is that?
927
:Why is that?
928
:To get to the real issue underneath.
929
:So you, you've mentioned going and doing
an organizational psychology masters, um,
930
:now did you still own your company at this
stage or what happened to the company?
931
:Graham: I sold the company.
932
:We were acquired.
933
:I never thought I would
do that by the way.
934
:We, after about year three from
memory, end of year three, we
935
:had an offer to be acquired.
936
:And I said, no, for different reasons.
937
:I said, no, uh, maybe it was year four.
938
:I can't remember.
939
:No, year
940
:Geri: weren't done.
941
:Graham: Yeah, I wasn't done.
942
:That's true.
943
:I wasn't done, which is
my fundamental reason.
944
:There was still more to do.
945
:But by year four, um,
they come back again.
946
:It was partly I wasn't done and
partly their offer didn't fit with
947
:me, my creativity, let's say, there
was an element of that at risk.
948
:Um, by year four they came back
again and a few of the things
949
:had changed and I could see the
advantages in doing it this time.
950
:So it wasn't just 'am I done', but if
we do go down that path, is there an
951
:advantage that I could not do on my own?
952
:And there was, and that, that was
moving to a different country.
953
:That was becoming more of a need,
which is, you could call it.
954
:You know, cultural UX in terms of,
but we understand gamers in the UK.
955
:Could we do that in America or Asia or
Australia or wherever else it might be?
956
:You know, is there any difference?
957
:What are the differences?
958
:Who's exploring that?
959
:And I thought that's interesting.
960
:Clients are now asking for the
American market in particular, because
961
:that's the biggest video game market.
962
:And we couldn't really do it, you know?
963
:So that was the, that was a main driver.
964
:So I sold the company in 2016, I think.
965
:And then I left in 2018.
966
:Um, so I stayed for two years.
967
:Geri: working in a changeover period.
968
:Graham: Yeah, for two years, two years.
969
:Geri: was that?
970
:Graham: Well, well, I left.
971
:I think back to that question, I was done.
972
:There's no one singular reason.
973
:I would say there was multiple
reasons in this particular case.
974
:Uh, quite a few actually.
975
:Um, but I think the main one was I
was done the journey I started out.
976
:I want to bring.
977
:I want to apply human computer
interaction to the video game industry
978
:in an affordable, quick way, not just
the richest people who could afford it,
979
:but also the very small game studios.
980
:Being fair is very important
to me, for example.
981
:And so it was meant to be, um,
I wanted to build a studio that
982
:any game studio could afford us.
983
:And that ended up being true, at
least back then, it ended up being
984
:true in terms of if you were,
you know, two people in a shed in
985
:Brighton, you could afford to hire us.
986
:Or if you were Megacorp X,
you could afford to hire us.
987
:And we work for all those
types of people worldwide.
988
:So the pricing model was very
much, I thought we could.
989
:Be fair to the whole industry.
990
:Um, and still have a very
good business doing that.
991
:We didn't need to just work for the 10
richest, which was some of the advice.
992
:I've got.
993
:I got lots of advice over
the years as you can.
994
:Some of it interesting.
995
:Um, as you can imagine.
996
:Um, but that was not
what I wanted to build.
997
:It wasn't just, we'll take the.
998
:We'll build a list of the 100 richest
studios and we'll go and sell to them.
999
:It was, no, if you're anybody
making a game, you should have
:
00:51:31,541 --> 00:51:32,841
it in your budget to afford us.
:
00:51:33,291 --> 00:51:35,611
And there was no difference in
pricing between the cheapest
:
00:51:35,611 --> 00:51:36,401
and the most expensive.
:
00:51:36,881 --> 00:51:40,921
So Megacorp X paid the same price
for usability test as, you know,
:
00:51:41,311 --> 00:51:43,401
a couple of people at a shed in
Brighton, for example, same price.
:
00:51:44,151 --> 00:51:47,550
So no difference whatsoever
in quality or time or pricing.
:
00:51:47,551 --> 00:51:49,521
And it was designed like that
from the beginning, you know,
:
00:51:49,541 --> 00:51:51,281
so that was important to me.
:
00:51:51,341 --> 00:51:51,711
That was one of the.
:
00:51:52,101 --> 00:51:55,041
principles that it was built on is
why would you just build a company,
:
00:51:55,371 --> 00:51:57,761
and I'm not criticizing that, to
just go for the richest people.
:
00:51:58,361 --> 00:52:01,141
Um, if you want to do that, that's
completely fine, but it just
:
00:52:01,141 --> 00:52:02,231
wasn't what I wanted to build.
:
00:52:02,291 --> 00:52:02,411
You
:
00:52:02,436 --> 00:52:03,916
Geri: Didn't fit your values.
:
00:52:04,071 --> 00:52:04,701
Graham: it didn't fit.
:
00:52:04,881 --> 00:52:08,451
It wasn't the point, you know,
um, it was meant to be part
:
00:52:08,451 --> 00:52:09,771
of the process for everybody.
:
00:52:10,601 --> 00:52:14,921
Back to your five why's question, I
would say what drives that is I wanted
:
00:52:14,921 --> 00:52:16,261
to change how video games were made.
:
00:52:17,166 --> 00:52:20,776
In other words, people are spending
five years building a product that
:
00:52:20,776 --> 00:52:22,956
comes out that is, uh, reduced.
:
00:52:22,966 --> 00:52:24,456
It's a reduced form of what it could be.
:
00:52:24,926 --> 00:52:27,986
And the players are, they're
playing it and thinking, oh, it'd be
:
00:52:28,006 --> 00:52:29,276
better if they had have fixed that.
:
00:52:29,966 --> 00:52:31,886
I said, well, we could do that.
:
00:52:31,976 --> 00:52:32,926
We can actually make those.
:
00:52:32,986 --> 00:52:34,486
We can do it as part of the process.
:
00:52:35,186 --> 00:52:40,376
And so that's part of, I wanted
to change how video games::
00:52:40,976 --> 00:52:43,766
but it's just switched from player
psychology to team psychology.
:
00:52:43,796 --> 00:52:46,276
This is the lowest level of the five whys.
:
00:52:46,876 --> 00:52:50,306
At the end of my career, I've eventually
got to the bottom of the, bottom of
:
00:52:50,306 --> 00:52:51,886
the question, why are games like this?
:
00:52:51,906 --> 00:52:52,946
Why are they made this way?
:
00:52:54,186 --> 00:52:58,596
It's back to your question around
leadership or culture, which is, well,
:
00:52:59,516 --> 00:53:00,856
partly it's an education problem.
:
00:53:00,876 --> 00:53:05,336
My research from LSE would say the quality
of your mental model is not sufficient
:
00:53:05,376 --> 00:53:06,406
for you to build it in a better way.
:
00:53:06,416 --> 00:53:07,136
That's one problem.
:
00:53:07,926 --> 00:53:10,666
But we also have to tackle leadership
and culture questions, which is, well,
:
00:53:10,896 --> 00:53:12,986
why aren't we looking for better answers?
:
00:53:13,156 --> 00:53:14,406
What's stopping us building it?
:
00:53:15,046 --> 00:53:16,076
Why aren't we exploring?
:
00:53:16,116 --> 00:53:17,756
You know, why, why did I
have to go back to LSE?
:
00:53:17,786 --> 00:53:19,356
Why aren't they doing
this research themselves?
:
00:53:19,356 --> 00:53:22,336
Or why don't we carve out a
research division on, you know?
:
00:53:22,366 --> 00:53:26,046
So yeah, eventually at the end of my
career, I got to the bottom of my pyramid
:
00:53:26,046 --> 00:53:32,966
of whys, which is it's, it's mental models
combined with vision and culture are the
:
00:53:32,966 --> 00:53:34,366
two things I ultimately come back with.
:
00:53:38,196 --> 00:53:45,726
Geri: So why did you think you
had to go back and do an MSc
:
00:53:46,966 --> 00:53:47,766
Graham: I didn't know.
:
00:53:47,826 --> 00:53:53,646
I'd, so here's, when I left my
company, I did not know for the
:
00:53:53,656 --> 00:53:55,216
first time what I wanted to do.
:
00:53:56,131 --> 00:53:59,011
But I did know that I was done there.
:
00:53:59,521 --> 00:54:00,001
Geri: hmmm
:
00:54:00,021 --> 00:54:00,901
Graham: I've never had that before.
:
00:54:00,901 --> 00:54:04,221
I've always known what the next leap
was, like, you always join these dots up.
:
00:54:04,531 --> 00:54:06,191
My dot is here, the next dot's over there.
:
00:54:06,191 --> 00:54:08,161
I see, you kind of form a path.
:
00:54:08,771 --> 00:54:11,241
But there was no other dot in this case.
:
00:54:11,731 --> 00:54:15,531
But I went on holiday to a Spanish
island, and in the morning I went for
:
00:54:15,531 --> 00:54:18,771
a long run, and in the afternoon I sat
with my iPad and started writing a book.
:
00:54:20,031 --> 00:54:24,531
Geri: And that's where we'll leave this
for part one, and I really look forward
:
00:54:24,531 --> 00:54:28,851
to bringing you part two where Graham
goes on to discuss his next career moves.
:
00:54:30,681 --> 00:54:35,721
As usual, he does it in this incredibly
engaging and also very thoughtful way.
:
00:54:36,856 --> 00:54:42,141
So in the process you'll get to hear
much more than just about his moves.
:
00:54:42,981 --> 00:54:48,201
But he shares so much that can be
taken as relevant to running research
:
00:54:48,201 --> 00:54:52,161
groups and developing a group culture
and developing a shared vision.
:
00:54:55,461 --> 00:54:59,271
And as a last thing, I want to encourage
you, if you haven't already done
:
00:54:59,271 --> 00:55:05,206
it, to take up our challenge to stop
now and thank someone who's really
:
00:55:05,266 --> 00:55:11,481
had an impact on you, this small
but genuine gesture on your part.
:
00:55:11,901 --> 00:55:15,411
Can really make a big
difference for them and for you.
:
00:55:16,581 --> 00:55:21,741
And it goes towards creating that culture
of care and support and collegiality
:
00:55:22,221 --> 00:55:26,331
that recognizes we are in this together.
:
00:55:29,701 --> 00:55:33,781
You can find the summary notes, a
transcript and related links for this
:
00:55:33,781 --> 00:55:38,701
podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.
:
00:55:39,341 --> 00:55:44,381
You can also subscribe to Changing
Academic Life on iTunes, and Stitcher
:
00:55:44,461 --> 00:55:47,551
and I'm really hoping that we can
widen the conversation about how
:
00:55:47,551 --> 00:55:49,471
we can do academia differently.
:
00:55:49,961 --> 00:55:54,051
And you can contribute to this by rating
the podcast and also giving feedback.
:
00:55:54,541 --> 00:55:58,081
And if something connected with
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:
00:55:58,111 --> 00:55:59,611
podcast with your colleagues.
:
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