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Episode 17

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Published on:

19th Mar 2025

Graham McAllister (Part 1) on career pivots: academia to industry to startup (CAL120, S6E14)

Graham McAllister reflects on his various career pivots, starting with a PhD in computer graphics in Belfast, transitioning through roles in academia and industry and then forming and later selling his games usability start-up. In the process Graham provides a masterclass on how to navigate and negotiate career pivots, how to articulate clear problems and solutions. The conversation highlights the value of bridging practical and theoretical domains, the role of luck and other people, and the need for continuous learning, reflection and adaptation in your career journey while being very clear about the strengths and passions that underpin this.  

Overview:

00:00 Episode Introduction

03:01 Welcoming Graham

03:43 Early Career and PhD Journey

04:49 Transition to Industry

06:01 Straddling Academia and Industry

07:54 Return to Academia and Music Technology

13:34 Influence of Gary Marsden

17:41 Joining University of Sussex

21:18 Starting a Spin-Out Company

21:52 Balancing Academia and Startup

25:24 Challenges and Reflections

31:37 Academic vs. Industry Conferences

32:32 Critical Thinking in Video Game Development

33:28 Startup Challenges and Team Building

34:32 Marketing Through Education

40:56 Leadership Reflections and Authenticity

48:35 Selling the Company and Moving Forward

56:20 End

Related Links:

Graham’s Home page

and LinkedIn page

People he mentions: Ricardo Climent and Gary Marsden

Transcript
Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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My guest, Graham McAllister, has

had a fascinating career trajectory

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with many pivots, starting with a

PhD in computer graphics in Belfast.

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And transitioning through

roles in industry and academia.

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Eventually focusing on the video

game industry where he founded and

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later sold a successful company that

addressed usability issues in games.

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He's now exploring his next career

pivot, and we'll continue with that

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story in part two, but for part one here.

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You don't have to be in the games industry

to get something out of this conversation.

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Graham is an engaging storyteller

and he is also really thoughtful.

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He will likely have you reflecting on

what you are doing and where you are

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going in your career as you listen

to how he reflects on the when and

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why of his different career Pivots.

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And he's so clear about the value he

offers to people and what he cares about.

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It's a masterclass in how to

identify and communicate a problem

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that other people have and that

you have the solution to help them.

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This is relevant, not just for

selling services into industry.

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But I think for any of us

researchers defining focused research

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agendas and writing proposals,

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what's the problem?

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Why is it important and

what's our solution?

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This is a wide ranging conversation

and we also touch on lots of other

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issues including around leadership

and the role of luck that we've heard

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many times before, and the importance

of others who help shape our careers.

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There's a lovely story here about

the pivotal impact of the late Gary

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Marsden that really opened Graham's

eyes to the human computer interaction

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perspective that became his career focus.

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This is such a rich conversation

and so interesting that we kept

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on talking much longer than

is reasonable for one episode.

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So I look forward to bringing you

part two where he discusses what

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happens next on that Spanish Island.

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Graham McAllister, thank you for

joining me today on the podcast.

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Graham: Geraldine,

hello, it's been a while.

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Geri: And it's been a while because,

for full disclosure, Graham and

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I worked together briefly back,

um, I think it was:

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There was a two, two year window

there when we were both at

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University of Sussex together.

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And Graham, apart from just the excuse

to catch up, I thought it would be

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really interesting to talk to you

because you've had an interesting career.

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And before we pressed record,

you were joking about being on

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career, what, four or five, you're

still trying to decide which.

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So you started off doing a PhD at in

Belfast in music technology, was it?

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Or some music related computing area?

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Graham: It was computer graphics,

originally, and already you can

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see the problem here where my

careers are, you know, because it

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looks like it was a music path.

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But it was actually very low level

computer graphics, like image

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compression, like JPEG or MPEG.

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So there was those algorithms

that squash, squash video.

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It was that type of stuff.

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So back then, as a 18, what age

are you when you do your PhD?

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21 year old, whatever it is.

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I was very much, you know, Uh, very

dismissive of human computer interaction.

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So, when we talk about that,

the idea of backtracking on your

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own thinking, do a complete 180.

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I've done that a few times in

my career, which is interesting.

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I thought, who would study

human computer interaction?

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What a preposterous idea, where it ended

up being my career for over 20 years.

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But anyway, so I was not that guy.

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I was very much low level

computer programming.

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That was my PhD, yeah.

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Geri: And then you went and worked

in industry for a little bit.

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Graham: I did because we were, I say

we, I mean the group of PhD students

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among us, we were quite, um, we looked

at the lecturers who taught us and

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we decided we would not be like that.

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I probably alienated all the

lecturers who taught me, by the way.

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But what we meant was, if we were going

to teach building software, we wanted

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to understand not just Theoretical

side of building software, but the

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commercial side, which what's it like to

build it under certain conditions and a

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company setting on a commercial setting.

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So we decided that the path I was

on back then was I would go and get

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some industry experience for a few

years, but we would always come back.

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To academia, and then then when

we taught students would say, but

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an industry, here's how you might

modify this theory or modify this

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framework, blah, blah, blah, you know,

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Geri: I, I actually did the

same thing now that you say it.

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One of the reasons why I was happy to

work in industry, not that I had a clear

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plan to, that I was definitely coming

back to research, but I was interested

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in how relevant was the stuff we were

doing within a research context when

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you took it into an industry context.

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And that was, that was interesting.

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Graham: very much.

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I think one theme from my careers that

I've had, I guess, is when we talked

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about this earlier, but in the deep in

the brief beforehand, but straddling

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this division, if it is a division

between academia and industry, and

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do they have to be separate and how

closely related they feel separate.

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In fact, one of the.

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When we talk about some of the criticisms

I've experienced with academia, so

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when I moved to industry, the, um, the

perception of people in the industry

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of academia is not always positive.

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In fact, it's rarely

positive in my industry.

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So trying to shed that skin of,

I'm not an academic anymore.

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This is actually, this is real.

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You know, it's like you're playing

around in academia, but industry is

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perceived as the real world, let's say.

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Um, so you're right that it was

this, uh, academia does some

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great, great things, obviously.

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But it comes with an image attached, and

it can impact on students perception,

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even us as students being taught.

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We were, we were querying, is this real?

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Because we could see what was going

on in the industry even, this is pre

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internet days, 92 I started my degree.

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And we knew, you're teaching us

languages we will never use in

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the real world, even back then.

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So why are we, we were always

querying and pushing the academics.

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Um, so again, that pushed out,

in a way, pushed us into the,

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pushed us out of academia to say,

we're not going to be like that.

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If we're going to teach something,

it has to be, has to have a

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greater degree of reality to it.

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It can't just be theoretical.

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It's not enough.

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It's not enough to teach the principles.

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That's what we thought.

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I would probably still say that.

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I would still probably have that.

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Geri: Yeah,

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Graham: mindset, I think

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Geri: if that industry academia

link bridging straddling, as you

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said, is, is, um, a key theme.

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So what, what was, you know, in part of

the straddling, what was the thinking

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then to straddle back into academia,

having been working in industry?

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Graham: it's back to what you originally

thought I was doing music, and I can,

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I can see why you said, I know we're on

audio here, but there's guitars behind me,

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and there's usually a piano beside me and

stuff I want to something more creative.

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So my job that I got was

telecoms programming.

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So telecoms is the 2000s telecoms

boom the internet's becoming popular.

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So as a programmer doing.

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Uh, that type of work, you

know, telecommunications work,

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basically, and it was fine.

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Solving puzzles is always interesting.

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You've been a programmer.

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You've done a compute CS degree.

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So, you know, no matter if you're

writing a computer program, no

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matter what it's for, it's probably

going to be interesting because the

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puzzle is stimulating intellectually.

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However, the output of that puzzle.

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Was dreadfully boring.

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No one cares about telecoms equipment.

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Well, certainly I didn't as a 24

year old, 25 year old back then.

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Um, so I thought, well, I like

programming, but I wonder,

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could I take that and apply

it to something more creative?

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And a friend said, why don't you

come and apply for a job at my video

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game company he was working for.

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And they were a very famous video

game company in England at the

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time, I was still in Belfast.

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And by chance at the same time,

a job posting come up in academia

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at Queen's University Belfast

for music technology lecture.

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And I thought, well, that's

a bridge between computer

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science and music technology.

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And that would fulfill my.

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creative output, but I wouldn't have to

move to England because I'd have to move

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country, even though it's a very small hop

across the bit of water, but it's still a

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move away from things you know, I'd say.

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Friends and family.

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So that's where I ended up.

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I ended up joining Queen's University back

in academia, um, but create, you know,

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keeping both my technical interests, but

also having a creative, a creative output.

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Um, but that would, that would change too.

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Uh, and that introduced me to HCI.

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I was there as a CS lecturer.

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So I was officially belonged to the

computer science department, but I

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was on loan to the music department.

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That was the official structuring of

the contract, you know, the academic

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Geri: Mm hmm.

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Graham: but I did not

know what I was doing.

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I was doing there really in terms

of what my research would be.

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I knew I was back in and teaching

students computer science, but

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from a research angle, like I

was, I was a blank slate again.

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I was not building on my PhD.

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It was not building on

my computer graphics.

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They weren't interested

in image compression.

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Um, nor was I anymore?

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And I wasn't doing telecoms.

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this is blank slate number three, it's

like computer graphics to telecoms, now

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music technology, but I'm not really

using anything directly in terms of,

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there's only the transferable knowledge

of computer programming languages, but

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nothing, nothing was transferring, yeah,

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Geri: How did you convince them

that you were going to be a music

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technology lecturer when you're

just saying you, you know, computer

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graphics, telecoms, programming?

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Graham: I don't know, I think, I think

we'll have to ask them, and I think

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one thing we should talk about is luck

in life, because I feel I have had a

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lot of luck, including you, meeting

you, because I would ask you the

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same question, why did you hire me?

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Because I was not, I, I shouldn't

have got the job really.

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You know, I think there was

always an element of luck and

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I've had it quite a, quite a lot.

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Uh, even ending up at Sussex, it

was another academic at Queen's

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University who said to me, when was

the last time you had a job interview?

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And I said, well, five years ago

when I got the Queen's job, and he

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said, okay, I'm skipping a few bits

because I've moved to HCI or my

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Geri: Mm.

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Graham: was to move into human

computer interaction more.

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And he said, okay, if you won't do

that, the next job, academic job

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that comes up in the field of human

computer interaction in any UK

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university, you go for an interview

to find out what people think of you.

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That's what you should do.

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He's now a professor at

Manchester in Ricardo and he's a

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Geri: Mm hmm.

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Graham: So thanks to him, I

said, okay, I will do that.

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The next job that came up was the

one that you posted or someone in

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your department saying University of

Sussex is looking for a human computer

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interaction lecturer, blah, blah, blah.

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And I said, well, I should go

and find out what people think,

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Geri: And, and I'm thinking back

then, I mean, we had some great

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people applying for that position

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there were two of you right

at the end that I remember we

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were really tossing up with.

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One of them was very much like me.

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in the interest in that and the

thinking in the end was that

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you brought something different.

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So it was about, I don't know,

like opening up to more challenging

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perspectives or different

possibilities for different points

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of view and the fact that you were

focusing in more of the music space.

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Um, and you, you had started to move

into games a bit by then, hadn't you?

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Um, you know, so it felt like that

added rather than, uh, deepened, you

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know, it added breadth and also, you

know, that diversity of thinking rather

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than sort of digging us more into what,

how, you know, what we already were.

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I don't know.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But we certainly, we certainly

interpreted you as an HCI person

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and I think you had had a paper,

if I remember correctly, published

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one of our key conferences as well.

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Graham: Could have done.

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So I had.

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I had five PhD students, I think,

at that stage or something, and

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we obviously had moved into HCI.

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It was accessibility back then.

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So that was the, my angle in, and

talking about luck, if I was to pinpoint

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someone who maybe was influential

in, I don't want to say changing

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my career, it was Gary Marsden.

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Gary Marsden gave a guest lecture.

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At the, exactly, at the, at the

research center, I was in the music

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research center at the university.

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And I was, I don't think I was in HCI at

the time, but I was looking to change.

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I knew computer science was

not my, pure computer science

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was not my final destination.

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I was looking for this other outlet

and I was becoming more interested in

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how people used what I was creating.

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And I'd never heard of Gary Marsden

that was not interested in HCI.

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And I went, somehow I

went to his lecture and.

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I think he changed my life, because he was

talking, uh, I was just listening to his

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research and the stories he was telling,

and I was like, no, that is something that

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resonated with me, not his exact area,

because I was interested in video games,

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but the problems he was talking about it

with saying, well, look, as technologists,

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we can create this, these things, but if

people are frustrated by the way they're

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not being utilized in the most efficient

or effective way, then what's the point?

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And me listening to that, I was thinking

as a video gamer, I'm playing these games

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and thinking, yeah, but there was probably

good intentions and they can build it.

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My goodness, they could

have been so much better.

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So I was thinking I could take

what he's talking about, but

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apply it to my area of interest.

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Is that a thing?

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And that, that was a pivotal moment in my

life was Gary Marsden, you know, Talking

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about what interested him, but me hearing,

me filtering it and saying, I've got

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the same problem in a different domain.

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Geri: It's fascinating, isn't it,

how we never know how something

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that we say or some random chance

interaction may impact someone's life.

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And whether it's your lecturer

colleague who said, when was the

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last time you went for an interview?

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Like, just go on and have a go.

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Yeah.

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To Gary, just happening to

say yes to a lecture there and

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not know, he wouldn't know.

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And sadly, very sadly, he

passed away a few years ago.

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Um, he wouldn't have known that there was

someone in the audience who was sparking

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with possibilities from what he said.

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Yeah.

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Graham: Yeah, that's the thing.

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Geri: it?

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Graham: I should have sent him an email.

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I know he passed away in quite a

long time, nearly a decade ago.

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I think it's quite a long time ago.

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Um, and I should have said to him, do you

realize what you said changed my life?

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Um, and then impact probably hundreds

of millions of gamers as well,

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because we'll get to the company side.

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The impact.

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And so the impact that that

random lecture on the impact,

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like, yeah, a lot of people, I

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Geri: Yeah.

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Like not, as you said, I hadn't,

yeah, I hadn't even made that

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connection, but yeah, but not

just you, but what has happened.

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And I mean, I I'm immediately thinking

of individuals that I know who've

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been involved as well as, you know,

the, as you said, the companies and

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then the, the players of the games

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Graham: players, exactly.

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Geri: So that's a really nice point

as well about just the importance of.

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stopping for whatever minute

or two it might take you to

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ping a quick email to someone.

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So if you're listening now and there's

someone who did impact your life, stop now

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and just send that email and say thanks.

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Yeah.

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Graham: Definitely recommend it, because

I, that moment with Gary is gone.

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And he wouldn't, he wouldn't know me,

I just would have been this random

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email saying, Hey, I was, I was a

lecturer, I was sitting in your audience.

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But just letting him know that

he changed my life, you know, and

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Geri: Yeah.

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Graham: so thanks, Gary.

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Geri: These are the things

that matter in life, isn't it?

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So, not the, not the paper that you

got that you can't even remember,

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was there a paper in that conference?

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So, you, so that's when our paths met

then, when you, you came to Sussex.

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Um, and I do remember you being

very good negotiator as well, you

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know, which was really, I learned

a lot actually from watching.

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And, so, You, by then, um, when you came,

you were bringing much more of a Games

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HCI sort of research identity with you.

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Graham: yeah, they, I, um, like

most technical minded people,

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you know, um, at the time I made

a nice chart of pros and cons.

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Should I move university?

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And should I move from

Belfast to Brighton?

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Um, and Belfast won on this little

organized neat chart, you know, all the

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pros and cons, but it didn't feel right.

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Which I

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Geri: interesting.

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Like,

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Graham: didn't feel right.

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There was more ticks in the Belfast.

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Geri: So keep redoing the,

keep redoing the scores.

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Graham: So, so I, I find that interesting.

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Well, why doesn't it feel right?

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Obviously not all information

was on the chart, you know.

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Anyway, um, and the reason is that You

know, there's a couple of questions

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I always ask whenever I'm pivoting

jobs, because I've done it a few times,

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and this question keeps coming back.

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And the question I ask

myself is, am I done yet?

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Am I done here?

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And so it's like, have I done

whatever I had to do in this

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domain that I'm currently in?

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But the other question that goes with

it is, is there something to do if I go?

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Like, is there something, is there

something to do here, or something

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to do there, sort of thing.

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But why, What didn't sit in the chart,

I guess it would have been opportunity,

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I should have had a column that said

if I wanted to be in the game industry

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and bring human computer interaction

to the games industry, there was no

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industry in Belfast whatsoever in 2007.

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But Brighton was thriving and it

still is, you know, there was like

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30, 30 or 40 game studios in one

city or something like that, so.

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Really

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Different sizes, some are large and

some are mid sized, some are small,

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but there's probably more actually

now, including the small ones.

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So I decided, well, if I want

to do this, then you have to go.

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You know, so that was the final, I don't

know if you remember this, but the very

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first meeting I ever had at the university

was not with anyone in the university

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really, it was with a games company, and

it was me, you, and another academic.

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We went to visit a game studio, uh,

to try and bring, you know, usability

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testing into their game making, and

that's the first meeting I remember.

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I don't remember meeting anyone,

like, in the university itself, but

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Geri: I can't, I'm remembering it.

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I think we.

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:

As part of trying to help your

network in and we, I think we,

355

:

I don't know what we did to set

up that as a, as a introduction.

356

:

Graham: I can't remember either, but that

was, that was wonderful knowing here I am

357

:

as an academic and already, We're talking

to the biggest studio in Brighton at

358

:

the time, they were a very large studio.

359

:

And so this, this is exactly why I came.

360

:

So you could say, back to my, I'm

going to link together what I do

361

:

now with what, with then is vision.

362

:

I had a strong vision.

363

:

If I'm doing it, this is the clear and

singular reason I'm going to Sussex, is

364

:

to bring HCI into the games industry.

365

:

I did not know at the time, however,

that I would have a company.

366

:

I thought it would be consulting.

367

:

So I remember looking at my

contract, my academic contract.

368

:

I remember grilling someone about how

many days consulting could I do per

369

:

month or per year or something like that.

370

:

And my intention was I'm going

to max that out because I want, I

371

:

need to bring this knowledge in.

372

:

The game industry is a problem,

academia has the solution, and there's

373

:

very little company, if there was no

company, really bridging that gap.

374

:

So I thought I would do it

in my days of consulting.

375

:

Um, and here's luck.

376

:

The second area of luck we're going to

talk about at least is someone at the

377

:

university said, hang on a second, by

chance, whenever I joined:

378

:

the university was about to give a

fund To give academics to have these

379

:

little small startups, and they said,

we're gonna have a small pot of money.

380

:

And I was one of the first four

academics to get that little pot

381

:

of money to start a spin out.

382

:

So originally, so now the idea was going,

not just my consulting days, but I could

383

:

do this in a little, little spin out.

384

:

Um, so that, that, that

ended up happening.

385

:

I was one of the first four to

get that little pot of money.

386

:

So we're, we're moving.

387

:

Yeah.

388

:

Geri: Yeah, I remember you moving up

the hill, I was setting up the, the spin

389

:

out and do you want to just reflect on

then navigating, I don't know, because I

390

:

imagine there are tensions between this is

the role of a lecturer and yes, there are

391

:

consulting days, but you know, and this is

what's expected here and this is what you

392

:

wanted to do in the startup and how you

navigated between the teaching, research,

393

:

tick box commitments, From the lecturer's

side and the, and the, also the, what

394

:

would be a significant commitment from

a startup side if you're going to take

395

:

a startup seriously, because yeah.

396

:

Graham: I, going in, I did not know

how messy that would become in terms

397

:

of time management and just division

of resources, my resources, you know,

398

:

um, I think, I think in the beginning

it was meant to be quite clear.

399

:

I would teach so many days per week.

400

:

I love teaching, by the way.

401

:

That's another thread that I love.

402

:

Education in general.

403

:

Something I'd really, really enjoy.

404

:

Um, But the, but what happened is I think,

um, the research side, uh, I didn't do

405

:

so much, not because I didn't necessarily

want to, but I, my feeling at the time

406

:

was the level of research that HCI is that

was good enough to bring the industry.

407

:

In other words, I did not have to

advance it because it was already at

408

:

a sufficient standard to bring it and

solve the problems that needed solving.

409

:

So the problem I was solving was.

410

:

The commercial side, there's no

business model really to, or it

411

:

could be a psychology problem.

412

:

The mindset of the game developers

was such that, you know, get off

413

:

my lawn, I know what I'm doing.

414

:

We do not need your psychology

nonsense, you know, here, sort of thing.

415

:

Um, so the problems needed fixed were not

research problems, they were changing a

416

:

shift in mindset at a commercial level,

which is you think you don't need this,

417

:

but all the evidence says you need this.

418

:

So my job was giving talks to try and

persuade them and show them with evidence

419

:

that actually you will do better.

420

:

You will get what you want.

421

:

You're more likely to get what you want if

you use this tool rather than just dismiss

422

:

it and let it go away sort of thing.

423

:

So I ended up doing some teaching, very

little research, but again, the research

424

:

was more me trying to commercialize

that and bring that into the,

425

:

So, that lasted for a few years and

I realized that I couldn't do both.

426

:

The time commitment, as you say, for

a startup is immense and I was, you

427

:

can wear yourself down quite quickly.

428

:

It's quite tiring.

429

:

You know, um, so I decided I

needed to make a choice really,

430

:

um, and that came from both angles.

431

:

University wanted me to make a choice

and I realized I had to make a choice.

432

:

And I decided,

433

:

Geri: they were, cause I,

I had moved on by then.

434

:

So they were pressuring you, like,

where are your research papers or

435

:

you're not doing enough teaching?

436

:

Like what was, what was their

point of pressure for you?

437

:

I

438

:

Graham: I think they wanted a commitment

really, is this, you know, are you going

439

:

to take us into a company, uh, or are

you going to come back as an academic?

440

:

Like I needed to choose a path, really.

441

:

I think they wanted a clear cut decision.

442

:

That's my memory.

443

:

It's going back over a decade, but I

think they wanted a clear decision.

444

:

Are you an academic or are you a

founder of a company sort of thing?

445

:

Um, and it ended up, I

resigned from both positions.

446

:

So the spin out and the academic job.

447

:

And I said, well, I think this

needs my time all the time.

448

:

I think there's something here.

449

:

So I quit both.

450

:

And then I, I just did

the commercial thing.

451

:

I started a new entity

away from the university.

452

:

Back to the perception problem

of, I think we said earlier.

453

:

I think one of the things holding me

back was perception of academia, and I

454

:

know that I was trying to get contracts

done when I was in the startup, and

455

:

there's real time and there's academic

time, and academic time runs at about,

456

:

well it's much slower, that's it.

457

:

Geri: It's a little slower, a

458

:

Graham: a little slower.

459

:

Geri: time.

460

:

Graham: And I think, uh, I'd certainly

had clients at the time who felt

461

:

the frustrations of academic time.

462

:

Uh, it wasn't going to

work for them effectively.

463

:

So, and the image as well,

academia is seen as slow and

464

:

expensive and not real world.

465

:

Those are

466

:

Geri: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

467

:

Graham: Um, perception

that I needed to change.

468

:

I remember telling someone,

well, we're now in the center

469

:

of Brighton or something.

470

:

I'm away from the university,

we're in the center of Brighton,

471

:

and they were just overjoyed.

472

:

They were like, oh, thank, you

know, thank goodness sort of thing.

473

:

It's not a commercial, it's a company.

474

:

You work on company time, you

know, real time, real world time.

475

:

And I didn't expect that.

476

:

I didn't know that was a thing

that I would have to negotiate.

477

:

To navigate, um, being part

of a university the time.

478

:

So that was, that was interesting.

479

:

And then

480

:

Geri: So can I just, um, so you've

just talked quite, so it's one thing

481

:

transitioning topic areas from computer

graphics and software engineering to.

482

:

music technology to games to, to start up.

483

:

So there's, um, there's the topic

sort of shifting, but it feels like

484

:

there are very different skill sets

needed between, I don't know, more

485

:

of a standard lecturer in your first

lecturing job to doing a startup.

486

:

And you talked about, you know,

talking to industry and that would

487

:

be very different talking than

giving an academic presentation.

488

:

Can you reflect on what were the key

skills you needed to develop in order

489

:

to shift from that more academic

mindset, you know, including what we

490

:

just said about the time, to something

that's more relevant to industry?

491

:

Graham: I think there's, so I've

mentioned, not necessarily a mental model,

492

:

but some of the questions I ask myself if

I'm ready to pivot, like, am I done here?

493

:

Geri: Mm.

494

:

Graham: The other, there's another

question, which tries to tell me

495

:

the type of problem that I work on.

496

:

And I would relate this back in some way.

497

:

Maybe my PhD, but it's how important

is the problem that you work on

498

:

and so whenever I think about the

problem I'm working on, I try and

499

:

put it into a hierarchy of all the

problems I know about in that domain.

500

:

So let's talk about

video games for a second.

501

:

My domain, let's say, was video games.

502

:

That's where I was trying to apply my

academic knowledge and whenever we,

503

:

like some of my students even did this

as master's projects, but whenever you

504

:

critique or analyze the reasons why video

games get a high score or low score,

505

:

like what are the problems with them?

506

:

Usability issues were a major problem.

507

:

Like they were coming up in game

reviews or user experience problems.

508

:

So this was a significant problem.

509

:

So I knew that If I'm talking to, if I'm

in an academic talk, sometimes academics

510

:

talk about things which are, you know, the

400th most important thing of all yet, but

511

:

there's an interesting problem for them.

512

:

Why not?

513

:

If you've got funding to do it, knock

yourself out, go and work on it.

514

:

But in industry, if it's the

400th most important problem,

515

:

no one's coming to your talk.

516

:

Usability, however, directly

related, it's going to be one of

517

:

the highest related problems, which

is especially in free to play.

518

:

Talk about luck again.

519

:

The business model changed

when I started my company, the

520

:

business model of video games.

521

:

So I'm going to lose track of

what I'm talking about here,

522

:

but it's very important because.

523

:

Pre 2010, let's say, if you spent

50 dollars on a video game and it

524

:

was terrible, well, tough luck.

525

:

You know, the company's got your 50.

526

:

2010 ish onwards, it was free.

527

:

So if you, if the user experience or

usability was not top tier, you made

528

:

no money because that player had left.

529

:

And what's worse is you'd maybe

spent 1, 2, 5, 10 dollars to acquire

530

:

that person, because it costs money

to bring people into your game.

531

:

So you make no money up front, and

your impact is worse, it's negative.

532

:

You're spending money to bring people in.

533

:

And you only get money if the user

experience of your game is sufficient

534

:

that they spend money, let's say.

535

:

I'm generalizing, I'm cutting

a few details out, but

536

:

that's generally the model.

537

:

That was luck.

538

:

If I'd have started my company 10

years before, it may not have worked.

539

:

So again, back to the business side

is, when you're lecturing or giving a

540

:

talk at a games conference, I'm talking

about a problem that they are seeing.

541

:

And their KPIs on a daily basis,

which is, hey, we paid for 100,

542

:

000 players to come into our game,

and there's only 10, 000 left.

543

:

Where did they go?

544

:

Well, a lot of them could have left for

usability UX problems, and that was the

545

:

problem my company was solving, and I

spelt that out clearly by showing that,

546

:

um, I give one talk a month for nearly

10 years in a row on this type of topic,

547

:

probably more, um, about that sort of

number, so I give a lot of talks saying,

548

:

if you want to know what's wrong, this

is probably one of the major factors

549

:

Impacting your bottom line and why you're

not getting the reviews that you want.

550

:

That,

551

:

Geri: yeah,

552

:

Graham: to me, was a common sense.

553

:

You know, you've got a problem,

and of course, if I'm starting a

554

:

company, I'm doing it for a reason.

555

:

I think, I think you've got the problem,

and I think I've got the solution.

556

:

That's what businesses do.

557

:

That's what they do, right?

558

:

Geri: yes,

559

:

Graham: So, if you don't think

you've got the problem, there

560

:

must be a miscommunication.

561

:

Why aren't you seeing the problem?

562

:

By the way, a lot of them

are not seeing the problem.

563

:

They wanted to say something else.

564

:

Like it was oversaturation of the marker

or somebody else's psychological problem.

565

:

Well, it couldn't be me.

566

:

Couldn't be our game

because we're experts.

567

:

So obviously the problem

is somewhere else.

568

:

And my job is to stand up and say,

no, the problem's not somewhere else.

569

:

The problem's actually.

570

:

View.

571

:

In fact, that problem continues

when we get to my current career.

572

:

That problem has got worse.

573

:

I would say the problem is not elsewhere.

574

:

The problems with the team, you

know, but so anyway, that's an

575

:

academic versus commercial talking.

576

:

I think academics sometimes talk about

problems they're interested in, but

577

:

sometimes they're not that critical to.

578

:

There's a small group of

researchers worldwide who do that.

579

:

You know, you've got these research

disciplines that are very small

580

:

niche groups and that's fine.

581

:

That's okay.

582

:

But if you're talking at a conference, um,

usually people want problems solved and

583

:

addressed and you have to figure out, am I

presenting my problem in a way that, that

584

:

the people in the audience care about?

585

:

You know, and that's,

that's, it's just common.

586

:

I thought it was common

sense, but maybe not.

587

:

I don't know.

588

:

What were you thinking by the way?

589

:

Cause What do you see the difference

between, like, academic conferences

590

:

and, let's say, industry conferences?

591

:

Do you see a difference between the two?

592

:

Geri: yeah, I think there are, I

haven't been to that many industry

593

:

conferences, main ones would have

been in the healthcare space.

594

:

It is also the case of what are

their immediate pain points,

595

:

um, what are their immediate

problems and what can you help with?

596

:

Graham: Yeah.

597

:

It's the evidence behind that.

598

:

I would say that, especially in video

games, I think a lot of teams don't, um,

599

:

look towards the science of the problem.

600

:

They tend to just have a, I, I, yeah,

exactly, gut feel or, well, I saw this,

601

:

so, you know, it must be true, right?

602

:

I will do A lot of guesswork intuition.

603

:

And it's nearly always wrong.

604

:

Like, there's a lot of bad.

605

:

Decisions being made because they should

do what academics would do and say,

606

:

well, what do we know about this field?

607

:

Do we do a literature review?

608

:

Do we apply critical thinking?

609

:

There's very little critical thinking.

610

:

They don't know the limits

of their own knowledge.

611

:

They say, well, I know this,

but they don't know what's

612

:

the counter argument to that.

613

:

What do we, where do we know where that

applies and where that doesn't apply?

614

:

Or what's the three other

arguments that could apply

615

:

here or three other frameworks?

616

:

They don't do, at least what I see, very,

very little of that type of thinking.

617

:

It's just, here's a problem.

618

:

Geri: A lot of our

cognitive biases playing out

619

:

Graham: Yeah.

620

:

Geri: in that context.

621

:

So in, in doing the startup

proper, like starting your own

622

:

company in the center of town,

623

:

, there's also lots of other aspects

that are more mundane, like budgets

624

:

and projections and marketing and

multi faceted, you know, not just the

625

:

core work that you get excited about.

626

:

Did you employ people to do that

stuff or were you doing it all?

627

:

Can you talk about assembling the team

that you, you built up in that company

628

:

Graham: There were teams of researchers,

so everyone was a researcher,

629

:

including myself in the beginning.

630

:

Um, anything mundane, like, I

don't like accounting that much,

631

:

but I love business models.

632

:

I'm quite familiar.

633

:

I'm quite, don't say mathematical, but

I'm comfortable in that world, let's say.

634

:

So the company ran on a very simple

spreadsheet, for example, but in

635

:

terms of doing the accounts that was

immediately outsourced to someone else

636

:

because it was not my area of expertise.

637

:

It's not an area of expertise

that I wanted to get good

638

:

in or anything like that.

639

:

Marketing's an interesting one, though,

because I never called it marketing.

640

:

I called it education.

641

:

Geri: Oh interesting,

642

:

Graham: told you, for example,

um, I give one, roughly, I'm going

643

:

to average it out here, one talk

per month at a games conference.

644

:

Um, and every, nearly every talk

I would give, we would get work.

645

:

So some people would say, Oh, you were

doing marketing then, but it wasn't, I

646

:

was explaining why you had this problem.

647

:

It just happened that if I explained

the problem well and showed them they

648

:

had the problem, they wanted to hire

us to fix it, to fix the problem.

649

:

So we never had any, uh, I don't

remember, I don't remember spending

650

:

one pound on an advert ever.

651

:

During the whole course of

the startup, there was none.

652

:

We didn't have a website for the

first three years from memory.

653

:

Maybe two or three years.

654

:

That's only because someone

said, are you a legit company?

655

:

I'm like, yeah, we're, we're flat out.

656

:

We're busy.

657

:

And they said, I can't

find you on the web.

658

:

And I'm like, well, no, we're

too busy to have a website.

659

:

So I eventually put a website up

660

:

Geri: Mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm, mm,

661

:

Graham: to say we're here, but we

were, we were completely booked

662

:

out, you know, um, so it's back to

this thing that I, I love education.

663

:

I love explaining to people.

664

:

I'm an introvert.

665

:

I do not like, if there's, if there's

an event or a space at the back

666

:

of the room where I can hide, that

would be, that would be me, you

667

:

know, but I also give a lot of talks

publicly, which is complete opposite.

668

:

People must think, Oh,

you love giving talks.

669

:

That's not true.

670

:

But what I love doing is explaining

to people the problem that

671

:

they're facing, and if you do this

thing, your problem will go away.

672

:

It's helping people.

673

:

You call it education, you call it

help, you call it what you want.

674

:

That I find fascinating.

675

:

And of course the book goes along with

that, The Researcher Brain, which is my

676

:

current journey around team psychology

and shared mental models and things.

677

:

It's the going deep into, why

aren't you seeing this problem.

678

:

And then the other question, why

isn't there a solution to that

679

:

problem, which I had to go and

design for the last five years.

680

:

So doing all that, and then, and then

getting to tell people about it, like,

681

:

by the way, the reason you're having

this problem is not what you think it is.

682

:

It's something else.

683

:

And the good news is we can fix that.

684

:

And that bridges, again, I had to go

and do research and go back to school

685

:

again, to be a student, to bring

that back into industry and to a very

686

:

practical, we're jumping around a

little bit here, but I think all these

687

:

things are connected in terms of.

688

:

Yeah.

689

:

I don't really call it startup marketing.

690

:

It was just, I don't think you're

seeing the problem that you have.

691

:

You're attributing the

problem to something else.

692

:

You're not seeing it correctly.

693

:

There's a great quote I found out

only a few weeks ago by Einstein.

694

:

I'm going to butcher it, but it's like

the quality of what you see depends

695

:

on the quality of your mental model.

696

:

Like the model you use to see the

world completely dictates what you see.

697

:

And my research, the results would show is

the reason you're not seeing the problem

698

:

is the quality of your mental model

doesn't allow you to see the problem.

699

:

So you're attributing it to something

else and you keep trying to fix the

700

:

problem and the problem keeps happening.

701

:

The problem is you can't

see it for what it is.

702

:

You don't see the problem.

703

:

So again, it's bringing it back to

mental models and things like that.

704

:

Um, but that's the joy is now I get

to teach that and educate people and

705

:

say, Hey, you thought it was this, but.

706

:

What if I told you it was something else?

707

:

Would you be interested?

708

:

Wow, there's a discussion.

709

:

That's, that's where we're at in 2025.

710

:

I'm about to bring that

to the games industry.

711

:

And I think, well, I know a lot of

them will not want to hear the answer.

712

:

It's going to be, some people will

love it, but I think some people

713

:

will say that can't be true.

714

:

That can't be the reason.

715

:

It can't be me.

716

:

That's an identity problem.

717

:

I'm an expert.

718

:

I'm an expert in game development.

719

:

Are you telling me I don't know?

720

:

Yeah, I think that's

what's going to happen.

721

:

Geri: It's a skill to have

that sort of discussion.

722

:

I love, you know, apart from the specifics

of what you said, I love it as an

723

:

example of tapping into your strengths.

724

:

Like you've said, one of your strengths,

one of your passions is education.

725

:

And it plays out, that this education

can play out in lots of ways, like

726

:

it was probably part of the reason

why you went back to lecturing,

727

:

I imagine, in the first place.

728

:

And that There are still ways to do it.

729

:

And I love that mental reframing.

730

:

You know, if you talk about mental

models and that as well, you're

731

:

standing up and giving a talk isn't

about putting yourself up there and,

732

:

you know, like in front of all these

people and isn't it nerve wracking?

733

:

It's about this is a great opportunity

to do that thing I care about,

734

:

which is educating on a topic

that I'm really passionate about.

735

:

And this is a way to connect to people.

736

:

Graham: Yeah.

737

:

I always thought of talking as educating.

738

:

I never thought I'm giving a talk.

739

:

I thought I'm going to go and

educate, reveal something that

740

:

is new to what's in the audience

and their life will get better.

741

:

You know, if I explain this thing

and if I do a good job explaining

742

:

the thing, they're going to go away

thinking, wow, that problem I have,

743

:

there's, there's a solution to it

and I understand more about it.

744

:

That's a great thing.

745

:

That's why we're in education, right?

746

:

It's like, why do we do education?

747

:

Let's go back to the fundamentals.

748

:

Why do this job?

749

:

It's not for money.

750

:

If you're in education, there's a

reason, why do I want to spend my time

751

:

discovering something, researching

something, finding an answer or going

752

:

deeper into the problem and then writing

about it and telling people about it?

753

:

Why do I do that?

754

:

What's interesting about that?

755

:

Because that's universal.

756

:

That's not just the little discipline

you're doing your PhD in or your

757

:

postdoc or whatever, you know, it

could be, it could be anywhere.

758

:

You know, it could be

computer graphics, telecoms.

759

:

It's the same type of thing, which is,

do we understand, but And if that's

760

:

what drives you, the uncovering of

going deeper and understanding why

761

:

and But it's also helping, right?

762

:

Because if you share the knowledge,

sharing is a large part of it.

763

:

It's not just, I did it for me

and I, I kept all knowledge to

764

:

myself and that was the end.

765

:

It's like, no, well, you went

and give a hundred talks or

766

:

wrote a book or did something at

workshops or whatever it may be.

767

:

That's elevating a group

or a team or a society or.

768

:

You know, that's, that's a bigger mission

than just, well, I do research like,

769

:

well, really is that what's going on here?

770

:

I think it's bigger than that.

771

:

You're not just doing research.

772

:

Geri: Yeah.

773

:

Yeah.

774

:

Reminding us to connect to that, that sort

of drive and that passion underneath it.

775

:

You mentioned team then, we're going

to move on to sort of a next transition

776

:

pivot that you did, but, um, just in the

startup company, you, you built up a team.

777

:

So that put you also in some

sort of leadership position.

778

:

Again, can I just get you to reflect on

leadership skills that you had to develop

779

:

or what you think was most important,

or, uh, you know, you may even have a

780

:

story of things that didn't go well that

you, there were big learning points.

781

:

Graham: I would say I'm very, I'm very

different now than what I was then.

782

:

I think I would do it differently.

783

:

Not surprisingly since going back and

studying organizational psychology,

784

:

which we'll get to and studying

the science of team performance.

785

:

The word I would use, what I know now is

that was probably authentic leadership.

786

:

In other words, I was just me.

787

:

There was no thought put

into leadership whatsoever.

788

:

That was probably the truth.

789

:

I started a company to solve a

problem and I was just purely

790

:

focused on solving the problem.

791

:

And I hired people to solve the problem.

792

:

I didn't, I don't think I put

any effort really into team

793

:

building or anything like that.

794

:

But I did try to hire the people I thought

were the best and fit for the team.

795

:

I mean, I know there's problems

with culture fit as well.

796

:

So I just want to, it's not

necessarily culture fit, but, um,

797

:

So I think it was more authentic.

798

:

In other words, I was just being me.

799

:

And that That took the company to a

certain stage, uh, not, not, maybe it

800

:

was okay, but, um, I think, you know, you

don't need the same person for all stages

801

:

of a company's growth that you're probably

better off not doing that in some ways.

802

:

Um, so, yeah, I think, I think I was

very much focused on the technical

803

:

side as a leader, even as very

much focused on my two main tasks

804

:

were, can we do the job very well?

805

:

Uh, and then this education piece

giving talks, telling the industry

806

:

that, you know, um, what do we,

how are we solving your problems?

807

:

Because there was a certain degree

of, the company started by only

808

:

offering one single service, the

easiest one, usability testing.

809

:

Like an MVP, you start small,

we offer this one thing, and

810

:

Geri: MVP being.

811

:

Graham: minimum viable product, which

is, you know, like I think every company.

812

:

Every video game company has problems

with usability, like tutorials,

813

:

feedback, controls, although there's

no one who does it really well

814

:

or they could certainly improve.

815

:

So I've been to find going into here's

another mental model or mindset.

816

:

If I go into a conference, my

mindset was everybody in this room

817

:

is a potential customer for me

because I think, or I can prove that

818

:

they all have usability problems.

819

:

So depending on your product or

your research area, you may go into

820

:

a room and think, I think maybe

3 percent of the people here are

821

:

the people I would connect with.

822

:

We have similar interests or similar,

you know, or I could solve their problem.

823

:

In my case, it was

always a hundred percent.

824

:

If you're making a game, we can help you.

825

:

There's no exceptions here.

826

:

So that was my, my, I knew my MVP,

my, my, my little tiny service,

827

:

service number one was applicable to

a hundred percent of the market, which

828

:

is interesting for a business, right?

829

:

But eventually we ended up like 10

services or something or whatever it was.

830

:

Um, cause we developed more and more.

831

:

Whenever you get to see a studio, you

realize, Oh, you've got that problem.

832

:

Well, you know, giving computer

interaction can solve that problem too.

833

:

So we ended up, so part of my brain

was developing or seeing new services,

834

:

going and visiting clients, listening to

them, seeing their pain points, and then

835

:

figuring out What I like getting this

bridge between academia and industry.

836

:

I'm always looking for, is

there a method I'm aware of?

837

:

That I could modify to fix that problem.

838

:

It's very rare you would take it

completely as is and just, you

839

:

know, apply it and it would work.

840

:

So you're always thinking,

I recognize that problem.

841

:

And if I modify this method, I think

I could do that or do it good enough.

842

:

So we ended up with like, I say, seven

or 10 different services, a current

843

:

member, depending on how you count

and then giving talks and educating.

844

:

Um, but for leadership, um, no, I

think I was just being me at the

845

:

time in terms of focusing on the.

846

:

I think that's very product oriented.

847

:

Is the product good?

848

:

And I don't, I think I thought

if I hired good people, the

849

:

team would take care of itself.

850

:

I wouldn't do that now, I don't

think, knowing what I know.

851

:

I'd probably build the team differently.

852

:

But back then, I think that's what I did.

853

:

Geri: So, let's come back to that, um,

later, just to step it through, because

854

:

I think it'll make, your reflections

on that will make more sense then.

855

:

And I'm just sharing that the picture

I have in my head is You've got this

856

:

drive, this passion, this vision to

make this difference and you've hired

857

:

people who stand with you like you're

linking arms and you're marching together

858

:

and able to deliver this service.

859

:

So it's leadership in that

you're bringing people with you,

860

:

they're contributing to you

delivering on that passion.

861

:

Yeah.

862

:

Graham: I think, I think as well, if

you join a small company, there's a

863

:

certain mission based element to it.

864

:

Like you're not joining MegaGames

company X or Y, you know,

865

:

you're I'm not doing that.

866

:

I'm joining this, this small one.

867

:

So I think you're attracting people

who are maybe more open to trying new

868

:

things, which is the reason I don't

work for Megacorp X is because if I have

869

:

a new idea, which I have a lot of, I

have a lot of ideas, but if I have an

870

:

idea, I'm probably going to try it out.

871

:

And if I feel like I can't

do that in Megacorp X.

872

:

I don't want to work for you.

873

:

And I've asked those questions by job

offers from certain people at the time.

874

:

And I said, how do you work?

875

:

How do you do your research

in your, in the megacorp?

876

:

And I said, I specifically asked if I have

an idea, can I try that out that morning?

877

:

And I said, definitely not, you know,

you will not get the chance to do that.

878

:

This is our method.

879

:

This is our way of working.

880

:

And I said, well, I'm probably not

the guy for you because I'm probably

881

:

going to try it because I think it's a

better idea, but I may fail sometimes

882

:

and that's okay, but I will learn.

883

:

That means there must be

something worth exploring.

884

:

Otherwise it wouldn't do it for fun.

885

:

I'm doing it because I think there's

a problem with the current method.

886

:

I also think that if we try in a

systematic way, we'll probably get

887

:

to a better solution at some point.

888

:

Geri: Yeah.

889

:

So that creativity again, coming

through again as a strong thing

890

:

and obviously the, the freedom and

independence to just play that out.

891

:

Graham: I've never really had

a boss, and you're making me

892

:

say, think things through here.

893

:

I've never really worked for a company,

apart from the telecoms one, but really

894

:

you're worth working for yourself.

895

:

Um, I think I've always

been wanted to try.

896

:

Why don't you try?

897

:

You know, are you doing something

because you're told to do it, or

898

:

are you doing something because

you cannot stop thinking about it?

899

:

And I definitely fall

into the latter category.

900

:

Like, like for the company, I remember

where in the road I was standing

901

:

when I realized I was going to quit

my academic job and start a company.

902

:

I know exactly the bend in the

road because I, I stopped walking.

903

:

My memory of that event

is I stopped walking.

904

:

I stood still and went, I'm done.

905

:

I'm going to start a company.

906

:

I've only had that twice.

907

:

That's strong.

908

:

That was one.

909

:

I knew I was going to start a company

doing, bringing HCI to the game industry.

910

:

And the second one was my current

one on game vision, where I realized

911

:

the last, the end of my career, I'm

at the last chapter, I would say,

912

:

chapter of my career is game vision.

913

:

And it's a team psychology

problem, not a player psychology

914

:

problem, but a team problem.

915

:

And that's going deeper into the problem.

916

:

Why do we have a player

psychology problem?

917

:

Why is HCI needed on the product?

918

:

Because the team are the problem, so

there is a, that's the through thread

919

:

here is that yes, you can put a band aid

over and say, we'll measure the product,

920

:

we'll do user research and put a little

sticky plaster over the top of it and,

921

:

you know, patch it up, but it's not really

addressing the problem fundamentally.

922

:

It's more, well, why don't the

team know what they're making?

923

:

And that's a shared mental model problem.

924

:

Geri: You're reminding me of the

five whys, um, technique, isn't it?

925

:

You're like, and why is that?

926

:

And why is that?

927

:

Why is that?

928

:

To get to the real issue underneath.

929

:

So you, you've mentioned going and doing

an organizational psychology masters, um,

930

:

now did you still own your company at this

stage or what happened to the company?

931

:

Graham: I sold the company.

932

:

We were acquired.

933

:

I never thought I would

do that by the way.

934

:

We, after about year three from

memory, end of year three, we

935

:

had an offer to be acquired.

936

:

And I said, no, for different reasons.

937

:

I said, no, uh, maybe it was year four.

938

:

I can't remember.

939

:

No, year

940

:

Geri: weren't done.

941

:

Graham: Yeah, I wasn't done.

942

:

That's true.

943

:

I wasn't done, which is

my fundamental reason.

944

:

There was still more to do.

945

:

But by year four, um,

they come back again.

946

:

It was partly I wasn't done and

partly their offer didn't fit with

947

:

me, my creativity, let's say, there

was an element of that at risk.

948

:

Um, by year four they came back

again and a few of the things

949

:

had changed and I could see the

advantages in doing it this time.

950

:

So it wasn't just 'am I done', but if

we do go down that path, is there an

951

:

advantage that I could not do on my own?

952

:

And there was, and that, that was

moving to a different country.

953

:

That was becoming more of a need,

which is, you could call it.

954

:

You know, cultural UX in terms of,

but we understand gamers in the UK.

955

:

Could we do that in America or Asia or

Australia or wherever else it might be?

956

:

You know, is there any difference?

957

:

What are the differences?

958

:

Who's exploring that?

959

:

And I thought that's interesting.

960

:

Clients are now asking for the

American market in particular, because

961

:

that's the biggest video game market.

962

:

And we couldn't really do it, you know?

963

:

So that was the, that was a main driver.

964

:

So I sold the company in 2016, I think.

965

:

And then I left in 2018.

966

:

Um, so I stayed for two years.

967

:

Geri: working in a changeover period.

968

:

Graham: Yeah, for two years, two years.

969

:

Geri: was that?

970

:

Graham: Well, well, I left.

971

:

I think back to that question, I was done.

972

:

There's no one singular reason.

973

:

I would say there was multiple

reasons in this particular case.

974

:

Uh, quite a few actually.

975

:

Um, but I think the main one was I

was done the journey I started out.

976

:

I want to bring.

977

:

I want to apply human computer

interaction to the video game industry

978

:

in an affordable, quick way, not just

the richest people who could afford it,

979

:

but also the very small game studios.

980

:

Being fair is very important

to me, for example.

981

:

And so it was meant to be, um,

I wanted to build a studio that

982

:

any game studio could afford us.

983

:

And that ended up being true, at

least back then, it ended up being

984

:

true in terms of if you were,

you know, two people in a shed in

985

:

Brighton, you could afford to hire us.

986

:

Or if you were Megacorp X,

you could afford to hire us.

987

:

And we work for all those

types of people worldwide.

988

:

So the pricing model was very

much, I thought we could.

989

:

Be fair to the whole industry.

990

:

Um, and still have a very

good business doing that.

991

:

We didn't need to just work for the 10

richest, which was some of the advice.

992

:

I've got.

993

:

I got lots of advice over

the years as you can.

994

:

Some of it interesting.

995

:

Um, as you can imagine.

996

:

Um, but that was not

what I wanted to build.

997

:

It wasn't just, we'll take the.

998

:

We'll build a list of the 100 richest

studios and we'll go and sell to them.

999

:

It was, no, if you're anybody

making a game, you should have

:

00:51:31,541 --> 00:51:32,841

it in your budget to afford us.

:

00:51:33,291 --> 00:51:35,611

And there was no difference in

pricing between the cheapest

:

00:51:35,611 --> 00:51:36,401

and the most expensive.

:

00:51:36,881 --> 00:51:40,921

So Megacorp X paid the same price

for usability test as, you know,

:

00:51:41,311 --> 00:51:43,401

a couple of people at a shed in

Brighton, for example, same price.

:

00:51:44,151 --> 00:51:47,550

So no difference whatsoever

in quality or time or pricing.

:

00:51:47,551 --> 00:51:49,521

And it was designed like that

from the beginning, you know,

:

00:51:49,541 --> 00:51:51,281

so that was important to me.

:

00:51:51,341 --> 00:51:51,711

That was one of the.

:

00:51:52,101 --> 00:51:55,041

principles that it was built on is

why would you just build a company,

:

00:51:55,371 --> 00:51:57,761

and I'm not criticizing that, to

just go for the richest people.

:

00:51:58,361 --> 00:52:01,141

Um, if you want to do that, that's

completely fine, but it just

:

00:52:01,141 --> 00:52:02,231

wasn't what I wanted to build.

:

00:52:02,291 --> 00:52:02,411

You

:

00:52:02,436 --> 00:52:03,916

Geri: Didn't fit your values.

:

00:52:04,071 --> 00:52:04,701

Graham: it didn't fit.

:

00:52:04,881 --> 00:52:08,451

It wasn't the point, you know,

um, it was meant to be part

:

00:52:08,451 --> 00:52:09,771

of the process for everybody.

:

00:52:10,601 --> 00:52:14,921

Back to your five why's question, I

would say what drives that is I wanted

:

00:52:14,921 --> 00:52:16,261

to change how video games were made.

:

00:52:17,166 --> 00:52:20,776

In other words, people are spending

five years building a product that

:

00:52:20,776 --> 00:52:22,956

comes out that is, uh, reduced.

:

00:52:22,966 --> 00:52:24,456

It's a reduced form of what it could be.

:

00:52:24,926 --> 00:52:27,986

And the players are, they're

playing it and thinking, oh, it'd be

:

00:52:28,006 --> 00:52:29,276

better if they had have fixed that.

:

00:52:29,966 --> 00:52:31,886

I said, well, we could do that.

:

00:52:31,976 --> 00:52:32,926

We can actually make those.

:

00:52:32,986 --> 00:52:34,486

We can do it as part of the process.

:

00:52:35,186 --> 00:52:40,376

And so that's part of, I wanted

to change how video games:

:

00:52:40,976 --> 00:52:43,766

but it's just switched from player

psychology to team psychology.

:

00:52:43,796 --> 00:52:46,276

This is the lowest level of the five whys.

:

00:52:46,876 --> 00:52:50,306

At the end of my career, I've eventually

got to the bottom of the, bottom of

:

00:52:50,306 --> 00:52:51,886

the question, why are games like this?

:

00:52:51,906 --> 00:52:52,946

Why are they made this way?

:

00:52:54,186 --> 00:52:58,596

It's back to your question around

leadership or culture, which is, well,

:

00:52:59,516 --> 00:53:00,856

partly it's an education problem.

:

00:53:00,876 --> 00:53:05,336

My research from LSE would say the quality

of your mental model is not sufficient

:

00:53:05,376 --> 00:53:06,406

for you to build it in a better way.

:

00:53:06,416 --> 00:53:07,136

That's one problem.

:

00:53:07,926 --> 00:53:10,666

But we also have to tackle leadership

and culture questions, which is, well,

:

00:53:10,896 --> 00:53:12,986

why aren't we looking for better answers?

:

00:53:13,156 --> 00:53:14,406

What's stopping us building it?

:

00:53:15,046 --> 00:53:16,076

Why aren't we exploring?

:

00:53:16,116 --> 00:53:17,756

You know, why, why did I

have to go back to LSE?

:

00:53:17,786 --> 00:53:19,356

Why aren't they doing

this research themselves?

:

00:53:19,356 --> 00:53:22,336

Or why don't we carve out a

research division on, you know?

:

00:53:22,366 --> 00:53:26,046

So yeah, eventually at the end of my

career, I got to the bottom of my pyramid

:

00:53:26,046 --> 00:53:32,966

of whys, which is it's, it's mental models

combined with vision and culture are the

:

00:53:32,966 --> 00:53:34,366

two things I ultimately come back with.

:

00:53:38,196 --> 00:53:45,726

Geri: So why did you think you

had to go back and do an MSc

:

00:53:46,966 --> 00:53:47,766

Graham: I didn't know.

:

00:53:47,826 --> 00:53:53,646

I'd, so here's, when I left my

company, I did not know for the

:

00:53:53,656 --> 00:53:55,216

first time what I wanted to do.

:

00:53:56,131 --> 00:53:59,011

But I did know that I was done there.

:

00:53:59,521 --> 00:54:00,001

Geri: hmmm

:

00:54:00,021 --> 00:54:00,901

Graham: I've never had that before.

:

00:54:00,901 --> 00:54:04,221

I've always known what the next leap

was, like, you always join these dots up.

:

00:54:04,531 --> 00:54:06,191

My dot is here, the next dot's over there.

:

00:54:06,191 --> 00:54:08,161

I see, you kind of form a path.

:

00:54:08,771 --> 00:54:11,241

But there was no other dot in this case.

:

00:54:11,731 --> 00:54:15,531

But I went on holiday to a Spanish

island, and in the morning I went for

:

00:54:15,531 --> 00:54:18,771

a long run, and in the afternoon I sat

with my iPad and started writing a book.

:

00:54:20,031 --> 00:54:24,531

Geri: And that's where we'll leave this

for part one, and I really look forward

:

00:54:24,531 --> 00:54:28,851

to bringing you part two where Graham

goes on to discuss his next career moves.

:

00:54:30,681 --> 00:54:35,721

As usual, he does it in this incredibly

engaging and also very thoughtful way.

:

00:54:36,856 --> 00:54:42,141

So in the process you'll get to hear

much more than just about his moves.

:

00:54:42,981 --> 00:54:48,201

But he shares so much that can be

taken as relevant to running research

:

00:54:48,201 --> 00:54:52,161

groups and developing a group culture

and developing a shared vision.

:

00:54:55,461 --> 00:54:59,271

And as a last thing, I want to encourage

you, if you haven't already done

:

00:54:59,271 --> 00:55:05,206

it, to take up our challenge to stop

now and thank someone who's really

:

00:55:05,266 --> 00:55:11,481

had an impact on you, this small

but genuine gesture on your part.

:

00:55:11,901 --> 00:55:15,411

Can really make a big

difference for them and for you.

:

00:55:16,581 --> 00:55:21,741

And it goes towards creating that culture

of care and support and collegiality

:

00:55:22,221 --> 00:55:26,331

that recognizes we are in this together.

:

00:55:29,701 --> 00:55:33,781

You can find the summary notes, a

transcript and related links for this

:

00:55:33,781 --> 00:55:38,701

podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.

:

00:55:39,341 --> 00:55:44,381

You can also subscribe to Changing

Academic Life on iTunes, and Stitcher

:

00:55:44,461 --> 00:55:47,551

and I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

:

00:55:47,551 --> 00:55:49,471

we can do academia differently.

:

00:55:49,961 --> 00:55:54,051

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

:

00:55:54,541 --> 00:55:58,081

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

:

00:55:58,111 --> 00:55:59,611

podcast with your colleagues.

:

00:56:00,201 --> 00:56:02,261

Together we can make change happen.

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About the Podcast

Changing Academic Life
What can we do, individually and collectively, to change academic life to be more sustainable, collaborative and effective? This podcast series offers long-form conversations with academics and thought leaders who share stories and insights, as well as bite-size musings on specific topics drawing on literature and personal experience.
For more information go to https://changingacademiclife.com
Also see https://geraldinefitzpatrick.com to leave a comment.
NOTE: this is an interim site and missing transcripts for the older podcasts. Please contact me to request specific transcripts in the meanwhile.

About your host

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Geraldine Fitzpatrick

Geraldine Fitzpatrick (Geri Fitz), is an awarded Professor i.R. at TU Wien, with degrees in Informatics, and in Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology, after a prior career as a nurse/midwife. She has International experience working in academic, research, industry and clinical settings. She is a sought-after facilitator, speaker, trainer and coach who cares about creating environments in which people can thrive, enabling individual growth, and creating collegial collaborative cultures. She works with academics and professionals at all levels, from senior academic leaders, to mid and early career researchers, to PhD students. She is also a mentor for academics and has been/is on various Faculty evaluation panels and various International Advisory Boards. An example of a course is the Academic Leadership Development Course for Informatics Europe, run in conjunction with Austen Rainer, Queens Uni Belfast. She also offers bespoke courses.