Liam Bannon (Part 2) on values & what matters
Update 22 Sept 2024: It is with deep sadness that I share Liam passed away this morning. May we honour his memory and his generosity in sharing his reflections by always reminding ourselves about what and who is really important.
Liam Bannon is a Professor Emeritus and founder and director of the Interaction Design Centre at the University of Limerick in Ireland. In April 2024 I released a conversation with Liam Bannon recorded in 2017 about his career, ending with a hint about some health issues.
This is a follow up conversation with Liam from Sept 2024 where he shares his profound reflections on life, health, and academia, amid dealing with terminal cancer. Recorded from his hospital bed, Liam shares his journey since his 2015 stage-four lung cancer diagnosis and subsequent health challenges, including a brain tumour. Emphasising the importance of appreciating life, paying attention to how and with whom we spend it, and maintaining meaningful relationships, Liam offers invaluable insights on managing career pressures, the costs of neglecting personal connections, and the significance of staying true to one's values. Despite audio quality issues, this deeply personal and reflective conversation is a poignant reminder to reassess our priorities and strive for a life balanced between professional aspirations and personal well-being, and prioritising relationships.
Here is a pdf file of the transcript. There is also a transcript embedded with the audio that you can follow along with.
Overview:
00:29 Episode introduction
07:25 Liam’s health journey
12:11 Reflections on professional connections & relationships
21:22 Being reflective about
25:37 Contributions & tradeoffs
31:04 Asking what do you want to do with your life
33:48 Prioritising people & relationships
38:50 Taking stock, taking holidays, being true to yourself
44:32 Wrapping up
46:16 End
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy
Transcript
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
2
:I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is
a podcast series where academics and
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:others share their stories, provide
ideas and provoke discussions about what
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:we can do individually and collectively
to change academic life for the better.
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:Liam: it can actually give you an
appreciation of life, and of the fact
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:that you don't know how much life you
have, but you should pay attention to how
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:you spend it, and who you spend it with.
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:Geri: And that's Liam Bannon.
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:Who's just talking about.
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:"You don't know how much life
you have, but you should pay
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:attention to how you spend it.
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:And who you spend it with?"
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:I'm really happy to finally
be able to bring part two of a
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:conversation with Liam Bannon.
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:Hopefully you will have already listened
to part one of our conversation that
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:was released in April, 2024, but it
actually a conversation from:
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:And.
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:And at the end of that conversation, Liam
did allude to the fact that there was
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:some health issues that he had going on.
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:So, what he's been reflecting on
in this episode is the implications
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:of what he's been going through.
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:And he wanted this to be
from the heart as well.
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:He explains to us at the beginning
that in:
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:cancer diagnosis for lung cancer.
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:That was supposed to have been
stage four and terminal then.
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:And he's also had some subsequent issues
with a brain tumor along with the lung
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:cancer . And yet here he is now in 2024.
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:However, we are recording this
interview from his hospital
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:bed and he's on oxygen therapy.
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:Because he's had some subsequent issues
arise with both the lung and the brain.
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:Part of being in hospital, for whatever
reason, we weren't able to connect
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:via Zoom or some other better quality
platform for recording the audio.
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:And as a compromise, we've
basically just recorded open
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:audio from a what's app call.
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:And.
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:So I do apologize in advance that
some parts of the audio will be quite
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:difficult to hear or understand.
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:You will have heard some of this
in the excerpt at the beginning.
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:And Liam also wanted to make sure that
I explained that his voice quality
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:has been affected by the lung cancer.
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:So it's a lot more strangulated
and hoarse than normally.
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:So this in combination with the more
open audio quality isn't the best
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:quality, but the content is really gold.
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:Because of that where relevant or I
think with where there is a particularly
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:important things that Liam saying,
I've tried to repeat or contextualize
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:what he's said so it makes it easier to
listen to, and there were other parts
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:that just weren't listenable to at all.
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:So I've just summarized them briefly.
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:And this is one episode, where you
may find it particularly useful to
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:follow the transcript along with
the audio that you can access, by
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:your podcast app or on the web page.
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:Liam also sent me a text
after the call about something
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:that he forgot to comment on.
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:And I can read that
directly now from his text.
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:"One thing I did not comment on re
my illness was how my brain tumor
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:began to affect all my faculties,
perceptual, cognitive affective.
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:In a very serious way in mid 2001.
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:And I was very lucky to have a craniotomy,
to completely remove the tumor in
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:Jan 2022, restoring all my faculties
since January,:
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:and 2023 to rehabilitate physically.
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:Recovering my mental faculties
was an amazing experience."
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:End of quote.
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:. And that's a direct read from the texts
that he sent and what I think you hear
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:there is the appreciation for life that
he now has based on this experience with
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:his health, that even though he's talking
about really serious craniotomy brain
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:tumor rehab, the appreciation for having
a couple of good years, with the rehab
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:and getting back some of those faculties.
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:And that's some of the main
themes of what we talk about here.
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:A lot of it is about the perspective
that can be really important to take,
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:a stepping back from the day-to-day
minutiae and challenges and problems, and
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:really stepping back and thinking about.
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:What is it that's important.
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:And.
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:The trade offs that we might make for our
career when we focus on the day-to-day
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:or we don't take that time to step back
and that the costs of that and for
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:Liam, he talks about those costs in
terms of some of the relationship costs.
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:And particularly, I encourage you
to listen through to the end because
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:he just has some really quite deep
and compelling things to say about
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:about that stopping, reflecting,
thinking about what's important.
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:Uh, putting a focus on the
relationships and the people.
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:And just really being true to yourself.
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:So I really want to thank Liam and for
being prepared to have this conversation
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:for his honesty and vulnerability in it.
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:And I hope that.
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:It's a salient reminder to all of
us that we do have a limited time
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:on this earth and it's, I know
it's something, not something that
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:we all often want to think about.
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:But how we can perhaps learn
from people who've gone through
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:this in a really hard way.
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:To make better decisions now while we can.
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:To live a life that is meaningful,
that is about people and
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:connections that are so important.
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:So I thank you for your patience
in advance for listening to this
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:and persisting despite the audio.
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:As I said, I hope that my little
interjections might help clarify
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:some parts where it's not so clear
and do stick with it to the end,
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:because it's really worthwhile.
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:Thank you, Liam.
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:It's really great that we've been
finally able to connect and we've
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:not got the ideal technical setup.
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:So we'll just see how we go here.
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:When we finished the last conversation
that we had that I released, you
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:alluded to some different health
issues that had been going on for you.
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:Do you want to just elaborate a little
bit and give some context for that?
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:Liam: Yes, well, just to keep
it fairly brief, because I could
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:spend a couple of hours on it.
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:Um, but anyway, the basic thing is that
hen I talked , it was back in:
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:I'd already been involved, um, in
quite a major set of issues connected
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:with my health, because, um, in 2015.
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:Um, I was actually working in, in Brazil.
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:I was a visiting professor
at the university there, the
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:Federal University in Rio.
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:And I was actually just about to go there
again, and I, um, did a health check,
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:and was kept in for observation, and
a few days later, from zero, and like,
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:thinking I was fine, I was told there
was some issues, and then I was told I
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:had cancer, and then I was told, Quite
soon after that, in a day or two, that
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:actually was quite serious, and then it's
stage three, and the next thing I was
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:told, it's actually, no, it's stage four
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:I was actually, um, told it was terminal.
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:That was the actual word, um, and so it
was kind of, uh, quite jarring in terms of
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:there I was going along, or moving along.
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:And suddenly this happened.
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:So it's, it's suddenly, uh, yeah,
and then I was told initially at
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:that time, but I actually, I was told
basically, I wasn't given a specific
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:.
time periods in like, but it was, I mean, it was get your things in
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:order, um, there's not much we can
do, yeah, I mean, that's certainly,
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:that's, uh, a change, or a stop to your
plans, or whatever you might be doing.
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:Yeah, I mean , I had to cancel
going back to Rio at that stage.
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:I didn't, I haven't been back there since.
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:So from October 2015 until
now, that is, uh, September.
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:in 2024.
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:I've actually been
dealing with the cancer.
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:Now that doesn't mean that I'm in
the hospital every day, but it's
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:meant that I've been, I've had this.
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:I've had this, uh, sword
of Damocles over me.
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:So you're never quite sure, um, how
you're going to feel or what's happening.
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:So in between this time, in those
several years, I've actually had
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:periods where I've been reasonably
almost healthy, I would say.
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:But then there are other times when I get
quite sick and I also So I was technically
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:diagnosed with, uh, uh, lung cancer,
and, um, that's the major primary cancer.
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:But then, sometime later, I
was, um, given that it was stage
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:4 and potentially had spread.
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:They found that I had a, uh, tumor in
my brain, so that became another issue.
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:And that tumor actually, um, they then
did radiation on that, and and after
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:doing the radiation, I had after effects
from that, which, um, meant I was getting
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:seizures, and intermittent seizures
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:.
But they were recurrent, and that meant it affected my ability to drive.
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:And I live in a house, but not
on a public transport route.
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:And I'm living alone,
since my cancer diagnosis.
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:So, yes.
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:So secondly, Everyday life
becomes quite different.
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:Geri: Yeah, I cannot imagine.
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:Liam: So I think in terms of
my work, well, I just connected
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:with, um, my academic work.
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:I had already been, I had moved out of
my, which taken retire early retirement
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:from my, my Limerick position..
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:And, uh, I was doing, um,
various visiting placements.
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:I was taking visiting positions.
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:Um, In different parts of the world.
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:And, uh, well, so I, in that sense,
it's, I wasn't leaving my regular job.
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:Yeah.
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:I used to have.
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:So, that in one sense meant, well, it was
good and bad, I guess, because, it was
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:bad in that you didn't have your, your
own, or your, local network, or the people
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:you've been with, or your work colleagues
really, because I wasn't in a workplace.
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:And the people I've been visiting
in Brazil are not around.
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:I've seen maybe one of
them, since that time.
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:It's uh, yeah, so actually that's
one of the difficulties and when
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:you're working or like I've been also
connected in internationally a lot
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:and I got a lot of um, satisfaction
out of my international collaboration.
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:And that's both the academic work.
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:Um, but also the social, in the
sense that you're meeting people
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:at conferences and workshops, etc.
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:And these are people that I've
been meeting, say, in some of
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:the CSCW cases since around 88,
the very early days of CSCW.
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:Mm, yeah.
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:So they have been my work
colleagues for many years.
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:20 years or something more and, uh,
yeah, so suddenly not being able to
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:give talks at conferences or meet
people has actually been, uh, I would
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:say quite a difficult experience.
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:I mean, cause I've actually, you
know, inevitably people are busy and
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:they have their own private lives
and family life and so they're not.
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:In contact or they don't see me.
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:I'm not physically at the meetings
where the people are meeting also.
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:So this, yes, it makes me
reflect a bit more on just the,
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:ephemerality of, of relations.
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:Even though I, like I thought I had a
very strong, HCI and PDA, Participative
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:Design and CSCW and Interaction Design.
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:They're actually somewhat
distinct communities.
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:Especially in Europe where I've
been working in space mainly.
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:Um, but it was quite, you know,
I knew people in those for over
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:20 years, you know, or more.
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:Yeah, yeah.
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:And then, suddenly, just kind of pretty
much disappeared because I wasn't there.
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:.
Geri: They are interesting reflections about the local
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:global tradeoffs that we make.
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:'cause it is one of the things
that we, many of us love about the
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:academic life is the mobility that
we have to work in different places
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:and travel in to different places.
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:And you talked about that last
time where you worked and traveled
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:an enormous amount and the
international networks that we have.
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:But what you're pointing to is the quality
of the relationships is, um, put into
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:sharp contrast, I guess, in that when
you get to the situation like you've
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:been dealing with in these last years.
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:Liam: Yes, yes.
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:I mean, I was saying about, how much I've
learned from all the different places
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:I've been um, the people I've met, and
then say, from, say,:
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:late 90s on, I did a lot of mentoring,
um, work and talks in different places,
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:and so was the, the, um, possibility of
being able to talk with other people,
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:being able to give your perspective.
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:In my case, a kind of more human centered
one, and that encouraged people to look
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:at Things a little bit differently maybe
than the mainstream, but I appreciate
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:it so, and so the opportunity to be
able to do that in different places was
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:something that I, I enjoyed very much.
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:It's always very much not just
the everyday or like the academic
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:interactions when you're with
people in different places, but,
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:uh, it's just, yeah, the silencing.
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:. I'm not trying to make it sound
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:like, uh, or I'm not
accusing anybody of anything.
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:It's not.
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:People are, you know, involved in,
you know, they have their family.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Most people do and they have
children and there's a lot of.
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:It's very, very difficult, I
think, you know, for anybody.
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:I don't actually, I can remember,
I don't say it in my 30s or even
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:early 40s, thinking, I don't know
how young academics with families,
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:you know, and partners and children,
babies, how the hell do they do it?
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:How people are able to
juggle all of these things.
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:And maybe in a sense, the answer is
you have to, you know, be careful.
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:And I don't know how, given
the career, um, difficulties in
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:developing your career
in the world these days.
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:I mean, in academia especially, I really
think, I mean, I feel for young academics
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:because I think it's, uh, the pressures
they're under are quite, quite enormous.
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:I honestly think it's, um, you know, I've
talked to some people about this, younger
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:people, um, where they're reflecting on
What can they do or can they, is this
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:this academic role the right one for
them because of some of these pressures?
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:I'm thinking if they did some other,
I'm not saying necessarily, I mean
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:in many different parts, or kinds of
workplace, there are different pressures
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:and I'm not saying there's no pressures
in other areas of the workplace.
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:There are, but in some
cases they can be different.
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:Yeah, I think sometimes the pressure
you have as an academic is that, uh,
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:You just put on yourself in a way.
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:So in some sense it's not necessarily
the manager who is forcing
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:you to stay on on the weekend.
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:It's actually you are taking on
another reviewing responsibility yet
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:another, uh, journal editorship, yes.
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:Et cetera, you know?
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:Yes.
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:And, and then you've got friends who
are asking you to review their papers
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:and you don't want to let them down.
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:And, and so it means, I mean, I certainly,
and again, I'm not trying to play what
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:we say in Irish, in the Irish language
'An Béal Bocht', which means the
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:poor mouth and like sounding poor me.
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:. But I mean, there is a sense when I look.
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:back and think when I came back to
Limerick, which at the time there was
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:a holiday over 20 years when, and that
doesn't mean, I'm not saying that,
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:nobody said I couldn't take a holiday.
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:You had students, you had projects,
you had, um, uh, postdocs, visitors,
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:you'd, like, so you just end up
taking on Way more in a sense.
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:If, if you actually did have a, a
manager in the classical sense, I
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:think they would be able to, in some
cases, say, you're taking on too much.
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:Yes.
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:You know, cut down a bit.
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:Geri: So you're pointing to the
fact that we have to be a lot more
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:personally responsible and reflective
of the choices that we're making.
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:Liam: Yes, exactly.
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:Geri: But how do we get, how
do we get that perspective?
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:Liam: Well, it's really difficult
when you're in the middle of, it's a
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:bit like, you know, if you're in the
middle of a rushing crowd and you're
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:trying to get your feet to the floor.
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:You want to stay.
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:I need to stop.
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:It's very difficult.
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:Because everything is moving around you.
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:And also some of the people that
you might want to talk to or to find
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:as people that might give you some
stability or a way of thinking about
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:or perspective on the situation.
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:It's not always easy to find
those people, first of all.
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:Geri: Because we're all probably
caught up in the same mad rush.
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:Yeah.
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:Liam: Yeah.
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:Geri: Yeah.
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:Liam: So it's quite, it's quite difficult.
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:And for many people too, if they're in
that, it makes it difficult for them
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:to, to actually say to another person,
well, Perhaps this isn't for you.
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:So on the one hand, you have the problem
that some cases, people who are academics,
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:given that they do have a commitment
to it, it's hard for them to sometimes
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:allow some people to go away or, you
know, to lose them because you feel that
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:they are intellects that might flourish.
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:Yeah.
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:But on the other hand, I don't know, I
mean, I guess myself, I, I never thought
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:of it in a sense, I never thought of
myself as a career academic, you know.
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:But the part of me that had a free spirit.
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:I was
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:Geri: just going to say, you're
always, you know, the opposite in
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:the sense of doing your own thing and
not playing the game so classically.
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:Liam: Yeah, but you get caught up and
in the end you, I mean, yes, it's quite
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:difficult, um, and so there was a
period then for about 20 years when I,
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:I was inside in a way, and it was only
then when I, I took early retirement
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:that, that was the deliberate, It
wasn't really retirement in a sense.
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:I mean, I stopped my
position because I was tired.
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:I just, um, I wanted to change.
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:I was getting more and more
into a managerial, directorial
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:role and I, that wasn't really
what I thought I wanted to do.
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:Uh, I want it to be more,
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:I can remember speaking,
looking at some of my group.
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:who were having kind of a lunch outside
my office, and I was realizing, you
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:know, I'm getting Separated from my group.
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:I'm not actually doing work with them,
you know Like just leading them in a way.
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:I mean, you're mentoring
some of those people.
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:Yes.
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:But in some cases, I wasn't
actually doing as much of that.
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:And I was actually traveling and
doing other international commitments.
315
:And I started to feel this
is getting a bit strange.
316
:The relation between, um, My group,
ostensibly, in one place, and
317
:the work I was doing so it just
made me reflect and move away.
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:I decided then I decided I would
take early retirement at fifty five.
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:Which is quite young, but I wanted
just to be able to take on different
320
:challenges and just, or pick up on
different things and not feel pushed
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:or entrained into a particular way.
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:So I cut back on, on the international,
you know, editorial things and challenges.
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:Geri: So, what are the things that when
you look back that you remember as
324
:really important for you and what you're
really proud of, because what you've
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:also pointed to is there have been
trade offs in all of these decisions,
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:but I'm just curious about, you know,
given all the trade offs, what are
327
:the things you'd celebrate about it?
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:Liam: It's interesting, I can
remember even back when I was a
329
:post doc and I wanted to write, to
make a contribution at some level,
330
:I wasn't necessarily looking to be a
big professor at some big university
331
:or anything, that wasn't my goal.
332
:But I wanted to, I felt I wanted to try
and write or have something published that
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:some people who I was kind of had some
academic, , respect for felt was okay.
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:So that was the idea.
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:Like if I'd made that, I would be okay.
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:I didn't really care about getting
a hundred plus publications.
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:Geri: So even though you haven't chased
the numbers or the publications, I
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:can say from being a member of those
communities that your work has been
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:incredibly impactful because It's
brought new perspectives, it's created
340
:new links, and I think looking at
the citations for some of your top
341
:cited papers , lots of other people
have found them impactful as well.
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:And Liam goes on to describe here some
of the interactions that he had with
343
:lots of people going back to the 1980s
and his time in the U S and also
344
:talking about coming back to Europe
and working with some of the European
345
:networks and the audio was just a
little bit too hard to understand.
346
:So I've, given you the summary
here and we'll pick up again.
347
:Liam: But there was a lot of
energy and intellectual energy.
348
:And also it so happened that there
were a lot of, uh, people who got on
349
:really well with each other personally.
350
:Geri: So that, that points back to all
of those international networks and
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:professional relationships that you
had that you also reflected on in the
352
:beginning about there's some of the
trade offs that you make because they're
353
:more, distributed and tied to the work.
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:I'm, I'm also just curious what would be.
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:How would you talk to your younger
self now based on the reflections you
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:have from this perspective and what
you've been going through in terms
357
:of choices, decisions, trade offs?
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:Liam: I don't know.
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:Sometimes I think,
360
:Geri: And again, the audio just really
wasn't very clear at all, but Liam was
361
:talking about how he actually really
wanted to go traveling and really enjoyed
362
:his post-doc and not being over burdened
with teaching duty and meeting, lots
363
:of interesting people in computing and
cognitive science and communication and
364
:sociology and anthropology, and it just
being a wonderful few years for him.
365
:And we pick up with Liam again,
as he then goes to the question
366
:of, well, what about settling?
367
:Liam: So, you can do that.
368
:The question then becomes,
well, what about settling?
369
:And I mean, I have to, uh,
that's an issue, I guess.
370
:Because there's some people I know, when
I went to Canada initially, I have Irish
371
:friends who are doing their PhDs, but they
were very clear either they were going
372
:to go back to Ireland, or they weren't,
they were going to go stay in Canada.
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:That was, you know, they're going to
make a life, that's what they decided,
374
:and then they'd ask me, what am I doing,
and well I don't know really, maybe
375
:I'll go down to California, maybe I'll,
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:Geri: And Liam goes on to talk about that
he was thinking about where to go next or
377
:where not to go and ended up making the
decision to come back to Europe and not
378
:specifically to Ireland, but then it not
always being easy to get your wishes, to
379
:match up to the opportunities that were
available or the dream of what you'd like.
380
:Liam: It ended up, there were some
interesting job opportunities in
381
:Scandinavia, and the work they were
doing was interesting, so I, on that
382
:side, I was interested to go there,
but it wasn't necessarily the, uh, the
383
:place that I was expecting to go to.
384
:It's kind of ironic that I'm, you
know, when I look back on it now.
385
:My time there between 1988 and 93,
so it was, uh, five, six years.
386
:But I made a lot of contact and good
friends there who I know quite well.
387
:And that's still, in a sense, it's
almost my home community in some way.
388
:Even after 20 years away.
389
:Geri: Liam then picks up on the
question of what advice to give and,
390
:and that it made him think about a few
people that he's talked with privately
391
:when they'd been questioning their
own motivations and career choices.
392
:And these are people who are
20, 30 years younger than him.
393
:And his own reflection was that he
didn't rethink this often enough.
394
:Liam: This time I was in California, about
going back, I had this idea that I would
395
:like to get back to Europe and that was
an override goal, but I'm just thinking
396
:in terms of some of these other people
I've talked with, um, it was cases where
397
:they were questioning, they had other, um,
interests at times, but they weren't sure
398
:the academic path was the one for them.
399
:Given the pressures there
are on the younger academics
400
:or with families, whatever.
401
:I mean, I certainly, um, thought
that I was cautioning them against
402
:it completely, but I certainly was
saying, you know, you really Need to
403
:think about this and then, you know,
go with what you feel inside yourself.
404
:Yeah.
405
:Are you really feeling this is
really motivating me or not?
406
:Geri: So just to repeat what
Liam said there, because I
407
:think it was so important.
408
:Liam proposed that you really need to
think about this and you need to go
409
:with what you feel inside yourself.
410
:Are you really feeling like
this is motivating me or not?
411
:And he goes on to talk about.
412
:People, even in their thirties
now starting to feel this kind of
413
:overburden and feeling the pressures.
414
:And he talked about the challenges
of teaching these days and the.
415
:Uh, increasing demands from students
that are being placed on academics.
416
:And what he also sees as some of the lack
of respect and some of the breakdown of
417
:traditional values and talking about it,
becoming a bit of a rat race in some ways.
418
:And then he poses the
question . What's the goal.
419
:What do you want to do with your life?
420
:Liam: You know, what's,
what's the goal, you know.
421
:What do you want to do with your life?
422
:Um, what, what can you
see at the end of it?
423
:It's, uh.
424
:Geri: And for you now, like,
how do you reflect on what's
425
:important in your life now?
426
:Liam: Well,
427
:that's a difficult one, I must say.
428
:Um,
429
:I have quite a few.
430
:I sometimes feel a bit like, uh, a
cartoon road runner, and he's going
431
:along over the cliff, you know, I mean,
432
:well, we're all terminal
in one sense, you know?
433
:We all, we, we, we will die.
434
:But, uh, there's, for
some of us it may be, um.
435
:to happen sooner.
436
:And then, well, actually,
it's sort of amazing that I'm
437
:still, um, given my prognosis
438
:Geri: yes, stage four in 2015,
and here we are September:
439
:That's really amazing.
440
:Liam: Well, there is, um, yeah, I
have, I do have regrets because I, In
441
:some cases, I didn't, yes, I didn't
prioritize maybe my relations and
442
:my personal relations with people
as much as I should have at times.
443
:I let things move along.
444
:Geri: I think it's interesting
that Liam goes on now to talk about
445
:some of the issues around those
relationships with people and not
446
:perhaps giving them the priority that
he now reflects on as being important.
447
:Liam: I can remember when I was traveling
and I took this time out this year.
448
:In 1985,
449
:86, in Asia, and I remember
the people talking to me then.
450
:I was actually, wasn't that
young, I mean, well, 31 or 2.
451
:But I can remember asking me, you know,
where I was from, and how old I was, and
452
:then they'd say, Are you married yet?
453
:And I'd be thinking, wow.
454
:No, I don't, no, not
yet, not yet, you know.
455
:And have you children?
456
:No, not yet.
457
:No, I was going to take
care of you in your old age.
458
:No, I'm kind of, we have, we have
things for that in the West, you know,
459
:but actually, the reality is At the
end of the day, sometimes, family
460
:has become quite, quite important.
461
:And if you haven't been around them,
then no, you're not, they're not there.
462
:Because you've physically moved
and lost those connections.
463
:In some cases, it's not so
easy to reconnect, you know.
464
:So, yes, I've, I've had to handle or
come to terms with some of those lack
465
:of choices, you know, in some cases
where I, I didn't, well, I did some
466
:decisions, but I didn't make all of
them, you know, or I let things slide
467
:a bit, or wasn't pushed on things.
468
:And, and those have, um, I guess
maybe part of me was feeling out
469
:there was this continuing explorer
sort of role, you think of the
470
:Arctic Explorers in the early 1900s.
471
:You know, like some of the people,
even in their 60s, they're still out.
472
:You know, whether it's on ships or
on, on airplanes up in the Arctic.
473
:And sometimes they end up dying up
there, like it's, you know, they crack.
474
:But in a way, it's, it's almost
like that's the fitting end
475
:for the, for the explorer.
476
:But, uh, have a.
477
:I had a sense that I would be In some
ways, yeah, traveling, mentoring, being
478
:in different communities, hopefully
in that kind of, for me, being able
479
:to hopefully contribute something, um,
as I was older in different settings,
480
:different communities, but actually
because of my mobility problems, I'm
481
:actually not been able to travel even.
482
:Yeah.
483
:That is something I really miss.
484
:I miss being able to see people,
being able to see places.
485
:Yeah.
486
:And the idea, you know, to be able
to just hike a mountain or swim.
487
:So I miss it.
488
:Geri: And Liam will continue on now and
remind us that it's important that every
489
:now and then we stop and take stock.
490
:And also he reminds us
to take our holidays.
491
:So I let Liam pick that up.
492
:Liam: So I think that's another
thing every so often that
493
:they take stock, you know.
494
:Whether you have it, it's a holiday period
or And take your holidays, by the way.
495
:Yes.
496
:If you're not Get out of where you are.
497
:I mean, I took a few days at the
end of the conference or whatever.
498
:I didn't really get out of the setting.
499
:And I .... It's gonna allow yourself
to think of where you're at, who
500
:you're with at the time, what's
important in your life, you know?
501
:Yeah.
502
:It's one of the parts of it, it's
ironic, but people say there's a
503
:lot about getting a serious cancer,
which is very often it can be.
504
:In some ways, I mean, it's, you know,
it's ridiculous in one sense, but it
505
:can actually give you an appreciation
of life, and of the fact that you
506
:don't know how much life you have, but
you should pay attention to how you
507
:spend it, and who you spend it with.
508
:Geri: And if I can just repeat that,
because I know it was a bit hard
509
:to hear, but I think so important.
510
:So he was talking about taking holidays
and allowing yourself time to think
511
:about where you're at who you're with at
the time what's important in your life.
512
:And reflecting on the fact that
when you get a serious cancer
513
:diagnosis, Uh, it can actually give
you a real appreciation of life.
514
:And the fact that you don't know
how much life you will have.
515
:But you should pay attention
to how you spend it.
516
:And who you spend it with
517
:Liam: and not to just suddenly
be grumbling about the day to
518
:day things that are going on.
519
:But, um, really prioritize and remember
and remind yourself every so often,
520
:about, the fact that you're If you are
in good health, the fact that you have
521
:a partner who you care about and cares
about you, hopefully, and potentially
522
:have, have, um, family or children or
whatever that is there in your life,
523
:those are so, so important relative.
524
:To, like, at the end of the day, what
is going to be important in terms
525
:of your, your legacy, and you know,
I mean, I, it's nice to think that,
526
:To people who remember something that I
wrote or, or maybe even just words, like I
527
:said when we talked, um, that potentially
shifted how they thought about the
528
:field, you know, I'm not trying to expect
everybody on everything I say to come
529
:from to change the world or anything.
530
:Geri: Again, just to repeat what Liam
said for emphasis and to help for clarity.
531
:He talked about, Not to be
grumbling about the day-to-day
532
:things that are going on.
533
:But to really prioritize and remember,
and remind yourself every so often.
534
:About the fact that if you're in
good health and the fact that you
535
:have a partner who cares about you
and you care about, and potentially
536
:maybe family or children, whatever
there is in your life, these are
537
:the things that are so important.
538
:Relative to other things
that, may be about.
539
:People remembering
something that you wrote.
540
:So he then goes on in the next bit
that you'll hear and talks about the
541
:importance of then just being true to
yourself, to your own values and living
542
:in the way that you want to live.
543
:And treating other people like the
way you would like to be treated.
544
:And at the end of the day, you can't
go far wrong and people will respect
545
:you at a personal level in terms of
how you live your life and how you
546
:interact with others and treat others.
547
:So you'll hear Liam say
this in his own words.
548
:Liam: Um, I think sometimes, yeah, just,
um, just try to be true to yourself.
549
:Ultimately.
550
:To, to your own values.
551
:And try to live in the way that
you want to live that you wish and
552
:should be treated, treat other people
like the way you would like to be.
553
:I think that's, at the end of the
day, you can't go far wrong and people
554
:will respect you at a personal level.
555
:In terms of how you live your life and how
you interact with others and treat others.
556
:Geri: It's a really important
reminder about just keeping Keeping
557
:things in perspective and, as you
said, taking the time to remind
558
:ourselves about what is important.
559
:Liam: Indeed.
560
:Geri: Yeah.
561
:And on that note, I'll
look at wrapping up.
562
:Is there anything that you would
want to say just in closing, Liam?
563
:Liam: I've probably said more than enough.
564
:Geri: Well, thank you very much.
565
:And, Are you okay to say that
you are actually recording this
566
:from hospital wearing oxygen?
567
:I'm, yeah.
568
:Yeah, yeah.
569
:Liam: I've been waiting for somebody
to crack in and pull me off.
570
:Geri: They've been very respectful.
571
:It worked out well given all the
hiccups we had trying to connect.
572
:Liam: Yeah.
573
:Geri: So thank you.
574
:Liam: Nice to talk with you.
575
:Yeah.
576
:Geri: Thank you, Liam, and all the best.
577
:Liam: Thank you very much.
578
:Take care.
579
:Geri: You can find the summary
notes, a transcript and related
580
:links for this podcast on www.
581
:changingacademiclife.
582
:com.
583
:You can also subscribe to
Changing Academic Life on iTunes,
584
:Spotify and Google Podcasts.
585
:And you can follow
ChangeAcadLife on Twitter..
586
:And I'm really hoping that we can
widen the conversation about how
587
:we can do academia differently.
588
:And you can contribute to this by rating
the podcast and also giving feedback.
589
:And if something connected with
you, please consider sharing this
590
:podcast with your colleagues.
591
:Together, we can make change happen.