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Episode 6

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Published on:

12th Nov 2025

Susan Dray (Part 2) on listening, mentoring, and adversity (CAL133, S7E6)

In Part 2 of our conversation, Susan Dray continues to share deep insights about the importance of self-awareness and authenticity, empathy and listening with heart, and dealing with professional discomfort and personal adversity. She discusses her mentoring style, centred around being empathetic and supportive. And she talks about the importance of service and community, as well as the current challenges faced by early career researchers.

Susan also shares deeply personal challenges and losses, and the accompanying emotional journey of accepting and learning from setbacks, the value of honouring people's experiences, and the importance of collaborative support. She reminds us, paraphrased here, that few people understand how special they are, and that what really matters is who you are. Because this is going to mean that what you do is important and makes a difference. Susan has certainly made a difference. 

Overview:

00:29 Introduction to Part Two with Susan Dray

02:18 Navigating Discomfort and Deep Learning

05:47 Mentoring and Community Support

08:51 HCI in Africa and Global Recognition

13:28 Supporting Early Career Researchers

19:12 Mentoring and the Joy of Service

22:11 Reflections on Mentoring and Authenticity

26:08 Evolving Roles, Willingness to be a Beginner

29:40 Postscript - Personal Reflections and Adversities

30:55 Lessons from Sailing

32:21 Coping with Loss and Finding Positivity

35:08 Final Reflections on Life and Legacy

36:50 Wrap up

38:27 End

Related Links:

Susan Dray's webpage and LinkedIn profile  

Transcript
Geri Fitz:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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welcome to part two of a

discussion with Susan Dray and

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it's a really special discussion.

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. She continues to reflect on a lot

of her professional and personal

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experiences, but it gets much more

personal and real, and she talks about

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things around, value of empathy in

listening and listening with heart.

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And she talks a lot about mentoring

and her approaches to that, and also

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talks a lot about service and community.

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But just mentioning those labels

doesn't do justice to the ways

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in which Susan talked about it.

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And I also include some of our

unofficial discussion at the end,

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which I share with her permission.

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Because she continues to talk about some

of the losses that she's experienced and

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some of the health challenges and life

challenges that she's had to navigate.

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And again, just the quality

of the person comes through.

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And as Susan says

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Susan: I think everybody

needs support, quite frankly.

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Yes.

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I think very, very few people

understand and realize how

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special they are, you know?

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And what matters is who you are.

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Because who you are is going to mean

that what you do is important and

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makes a difference, and has an impact.

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Geri Fitz: And Susan has

definitely had an impact.

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So we'll start here a little bit back

from where we left off in part one,

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and I really hope you enjoy this very

special part two with Susan Dray.

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You're very self-reflective in the

whole practice, in the way you've talked

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about being aware of the potential

blinders and also, again, that curiosity

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that enables you to be surprised.

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Yeah.

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Because what you said, you don't

know, you've got the blinders

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. And then you hit them and

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Yeah.

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Susan: When you hit them, it can feel

like you're a failure in that moment.

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And if you let that take over

your mindset at that point

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then you miss the surprises.

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And I've now learned that every

time I do a study, regardless of

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where the first couple of people,

I'm gonna feel really stupid.

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Geri Fitz: And that's okay.

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Susan: And that's okay.

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You know, learning to sit with

discomfort, I think is a really big deal.

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And then when you're uncomfortable

listening deeply with your heart,

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you know, really, really focusing

on understanding as much as you can.

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Which is , they compete with each other.

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You know, that's a struggle.

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That's always a struggle.

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Geri Fitz: Can you say more about that?

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Susan: Well,

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so in the beginning of, of

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the township study, for instance,

we were trying to understand what

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they did with money in general.

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And.

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I have a client with me.

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I'm trying to create an experience

that's a good experience for her.

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We are also working with a local vendor.

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Of course, we never, ever

would do that on our own.

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We worked with the local vendor.

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They consulted on the screener

and they did the recruitment,

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and then they went with us.

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Mm.

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And had a facilitator, and two

translators so that they could switch

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off because we tried to, as much

as possible, use local language.

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Not always possible,

but as much as possible.

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And it was so hard in the beginning

to just relax enough and allow myself

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to feel the discomfort and not just

react by going, ah, you know, just.

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Use it as information.

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Oh, this is, this is

important information here.

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Yeah.

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You're learning stuff that you

wouldn't be learning otherwise.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Susan: Um, and that's

why you're uncomfortable.

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Yeah.

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It's that discrepancy.

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Geri Fitz: How would you talk to

someone about listening with your heart?

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Because that sounds so key for lots

of things, not just doing field work.

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Susan: Mm.

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Mm-hmm.

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I think that's kind of me.

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Mm.

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You know, that, that's kind of who I am.

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So listening with the heart

means to me being empathetic.

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, but also,

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how do I say it?

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I guess it's kind of listening with love.

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A kind of honoring what the

person is saying and what they're

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showing you in their behavior,

even when they don't match.

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But seeing that as valuable and

then reinforcing that value.

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And certainly when I mentor folks a

lot of what I do is it's really simple.

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Yeah.

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Because I think most people

have, they know what the solution

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is, they just can't unpack it.

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Yeah.

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So it's just sitting and saying,

huh, that's an interesting question.

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And then ask a follow up that then

they go into and they go, Hmm.

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Really interesting.

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Just kind of reinforcing that

the person is valuable, that you

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honor them, that you respect them.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Susan: That you care for them.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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And that's such a valuable gift that you

give to all of us who've had the honor

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of interacting with you over the years.

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Because I was actually going to go to

the mentoring because I think that,

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when you talked about listening with

your heart, I was thinking about,

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that's what I see you doing all the

time in any of your interactions.

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And I'm actually just

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Susan: You've got your hearts!

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Geri Fitz: I'm holding up here an

orange and a purple heart stone

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that I was gifted by Susan the last

time I saw her a few months ago.

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And just the generosity of these little

gestures that you have as well, that

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are ways of connecting with people.

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And you can't put a value on that

presence in a peer community,

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in a professional community.

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And yeah.

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What that gives to people.

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Susan: Well, and there certainly are

people who dismiss it and say, you

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don't have anything technical to offer.

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For instance, and it's been a long

time since I've been in the field,

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I don't have technical insights.

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But I know how to provide support,

you know, this undergirding.

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Yeah.

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And also I am a cockeyed optimist.

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I get this from my father.

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And so I tend to see positive,

you know, positives for people.

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And sometimes that's the most

important thing is it's gonna be okay.

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It is going to be okay.

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And if it's not okay, it's not done yet.

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Geri Fitz: Hmm.

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Susan: You know, and yeah, that's

simplistic and, but sometime, you

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know, if somebody's deeply negative

about something, hearing a positive

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can be for them uncomfortable and

can lead them to question their

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cynicism, say, or whatever it is.

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Doesn't always work,

but sometimes it does.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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And, and so that presence in listening

with your heart is also in a way holding

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up a mirror for people, which can be to

reflect, reflect on exactly where they're

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coming from, as well as reflecting on

the fact that they do have the answers.

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Susan: Exactly.

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Exactly.

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And it's like peeling the onion.

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So sometimes what people need is that

kind of listening, deep listening.

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But other times they need an opportunity.

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So for instance, Gary Marsden

and I were very dear friends.

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Gary was a professor at the University

of Cape Town, and he was one of

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the key people in the early days

of HCI in Africa, South Africa.

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But yes, Africa, I don't believe

there were HCI communities,

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anyplace else in those days.

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And in 2001 they had a conference.

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Happened to be, my keynote was on 9.11,

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the original 9.11,

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which was an interesting

situation to be in.

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But luckily I'd already given my

keynote when all that went down.

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But it was.

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Important to listen to what they

needed and what they needed.

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First of all, there was a

deep sense of inferiority.

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You know, Africa's inferior,

well, that's a pretty shitty

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thing that colonialism has done.

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Let's get rid of that.

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So there was partly, there was no,

no, this is really interesting.

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You know, and people that most

people have never heard of, like

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Edwin Blake who did this amazing

work providing, game trackers, sand

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bushman trackers in national parks.

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They can read a leaf that's been stepped

on by an elephant half an hour ago.

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They didn't have the language to

express this, but he developed this

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tracker that they could then keep

track of what their observations were

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and it raised their standing, but

also he found that they were gonna do

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it the old western hierarchical way.

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Right.

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Geri Fitz: Hmm.

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Susan: Does not work, or didn't

at that time work at all.

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I mean, even if you ask people to show

their family tree, they would, instead

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of like, grandparents, parents, children,

they would do parents, aunt, child,

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uncle, grandfather, father, you know.

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They did not have the concept

of a hierarchy, so hierarchical

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wasn't gonna work for them.

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And they didn't have language.

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A written language at that time.

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I don't know if they do now.

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So it was all done icon graphically

with pictures of the different animals

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that had to be accurate enough that they

could distinguish between a Springbok

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and a, whatever else, Bok it might be.

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Well, who knows about that work

in this, in the global north?

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Geri Fitz: Mm.

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Susan: Not very many people.

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So what they needed was first of

all to be reinforced that they were

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doing important things and they

needed a voice to the global North.

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They needed somebody to be

saying, this work is important.

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This work matters.

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This is excellent work.

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And that was me.

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So I became the voice for Africa.

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And Gary used to say that HCI in Africa,

they never would've been able to get the

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kind of recognition that they have since

still not enough, but they are starting to

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get without having that kind of conduit.

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And that was me.

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Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

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I mean, and that's the

interstices again, isn't it?

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Susan: Exactly.

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Geri Fitz: In a different way.

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Susan: Yeah.

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It's, yeah.

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And so sometimes what people need is

exposure or you know, so another one

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of my mentees who was doing a PhD

on a Fulbright coming from Africa.

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And she was doing a PhD at Iowa State.

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And she needed a postdoc.

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And so we were talking, I

was actually down in Panama

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on a Fulbright at that time.

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So we were talking and it became

clear that she was interested in

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gender studies and I said, you

should talk to Margaret Burnett.

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And so I hooked them up.

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Well, she ended up doing

a, a postdoc with Margaret.

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Geri Fitz: Oh, lovely.

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Susan: And yeah, so it is like,

sometimes it's just that little, yeah.

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You should talk to this, you

should talk to this person.

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Yeah.

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You know, that kind of thing.

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And I think we

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Geri Fitz: That's a lovely, extension

of your rich people skillset, that

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networking and connecting Well, I think.

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As well as advocating.

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Susan: Absolutely.

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We need more of that.

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Geri Fitz: Mm.

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Susan: Especially nowadays, early

career scientists and people in business

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as well are getting totally slammed.

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And we need to find ways to support them.

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And that's going to require

the old proverbial village.

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Right?

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It takes a village to raise an early

career researcher, so to speak.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Any particular ideas for what we can

do right now around those challenges?

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Susan: Well, one thing

we can do is listen.

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Listen to their situation

and make connections.

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And I was so excited at CHI because I

saw that this was our recent conference.

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Our recent, yeah.

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CHI Conference in Japan.

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And.

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What I saw there was this sense

that a, we have to pull together

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to support early career people

and a real recognition of that.

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And we're not going to let it happen

that this field gets blown apart by this.

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And so that may mean that it

migrates to other parts of the world.

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It may mean, and this could be a perfect

opportunity for us to raise awareness of

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Africa because they're doing artificial

intelligence really differently there.

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And you know, the idea that AI now

is training on a Western internet

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Geri Fitz: Yes.

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Susan: And has Western

culture built into it.

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And that doesn't work in Egypt

or Kenya or Nigeria or stuff.

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I mean, it doesn't work.

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So their whole human centered AI

approaches are, I think, they're

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radical, they've, they're spreading.

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But I think that's a very consistent,

I've been hearing that from my African

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colleagues for a good five years.

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More than five years.

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Yeah.

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So I think, you know, they're really

pioneers in that and we keep reinventing

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the wheel and think we invented it.

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Right.

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Nope.

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Geri Fitz: Hmm.

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Yeah.

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Susan: Yeah.

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Geri Fitz: So are you talking

particularly there about early

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career researchers within the

American context or more generally?

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Susan: Well, I think the American context

is particularly dire given the political

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sense situation in the US right now.

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But it has a ripple effect

outside the US obviously.

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And

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I think everybody needs

support, quite frankly.

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Yes.

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I think very, very few people

understand and realize how

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special they are, you know?

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Yeah.

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And.

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And so if you can just be that

mirror to reflect that back to

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them, sometimes that's enough.

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Yeah.

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To help them have the courage to do what

they have to do, whatever that might be.

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Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

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Susan: And, and

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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That's beautiful Susan.

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And there's so much

about our sector that is.

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Continually trying to reinforce

messages of not being good enough.

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Of being rejected of

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Susan: Exactly, exactly.

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Geri Fitz: The hyper competition that

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Susan: Absolutely.

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You know, oh, I got a CHI paper, that

means I'm part of the 10%, or whatever.

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It's like, I've never had a CHI paper.

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I never submitted a, I've

never submitted a CHI paper.

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I've had case studies, I've had SIGs,

I've had panels, I've done other

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stuff, but I've never had a paper.

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Geri Fitz: Oh, that's wonderful.

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So there, there are ways of

choosing your way of being in

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peer communities isn't there?

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Susan: Absolutely.

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And I wouldn't get anywhere if

I tried to submit a high paper

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because the stuff I write about

would be dismissed as you know.

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That's not important.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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So sounds like choosing what

difference you want to make.

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Susan: Mm-hmm.

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So I think it's, it's Jane Goodall,

I think, who says something like.

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Whatever you do makes a difference.

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You just have to decide what kind

of difference you want to make.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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And standing confidently in that.

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Susan: As confidently as

you can with some support.

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A lot of help from your friends sometimes.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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And recognizing, as you said about

standing in the discomfort of that as

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well sometimes and not being sure and

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Susan: Yeah.

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And you know, I think, I think my

impression of academia, I've only been

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in academic for, true academic for four

months when I was down in Panama teaching

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and helping them develop curricular

around HCI and a systems engineering.

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Now, it was really interesting.

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So I can, I can't speak to being an

academic, I can be like an academic.

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But my impression is that

because of scarcity and perceived

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scarcity, there's huge competition.

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And so there's this sort of

dog eat dog kind of thing.

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And I see that everywhere,

not just in the US.

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It's particularly pronounced

in the US I think.

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And it's crazy.

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We have different skills.

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We're gonna fit in different places.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's just, it's sad.

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It's like when the pot gets

smaller, the dogs fight harder.

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Yeah.

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And

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it's not that it's, yeah,

total peaches and cream in

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industry either of course, but

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Geri Fitz: No challenges everywhere and

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Susan: Absolutely.

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Geri Fitz: So, should look

at wrapping up, I guess.

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Susan: Yeah, whenever.

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Geri Fitz: Sadly, because

it's a wonderful talking.

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What have we not talked about

that we should before we wrap up?

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Susan: Hmm.

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Well, I, I love mentoring, but it's

such an honor, and I could run down

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some of the people that I've had

this incredibly wonderful, precious,

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very precious relationship with.

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And the whole idea of service too, where,

you know, you get so much out of it.

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Mm-hmm.

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It's hard to imagine

people don't just go, yeah.

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Because you really end up, you

meet people, you have fun, you

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have intellectual challenge.

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You have to figure out logistics.

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All this kind of stuff.

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That's just so fascinating.

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Now in the beginning with CHI.

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So the first CHI was in Boston

in 83, and then the next one

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was in San Francisco in 85.

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And it, that's because the

one in Boston was in like

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December or something like that.

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And the next one started

in the April, May time.

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But I have pictures of, from 85, I was

super involved at 85 and we have literally

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a very big paper on a bulletin board and

blocks, columns for the three different

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rooms or however many there were, and

then where you put them and then you

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have to, you kind of swap 'em around.

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Very physical.

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It was totally physical, totally

different problem than we have now

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with 5,000 people coming and all that.

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But the comraderie that we developed

and the bonds that we developed and

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the ways that we worked with each

other, those are consistent, you know?

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Mm-hmm.

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I think it's bigger job and it, there's

more burnout now, obviously with the

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bigger job and also with the fact that

I think people have a lot of trouble.

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Okay.

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This is controversial.

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Personally, I think you can

get an awful lot done if you

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don't care who gets the credit.

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But it's a mindset of, we have

to fight over the small crumbs

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here, which I think is the, at

large, makes it hard to do that.

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It makes it hard to collaborate.

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Because, you want people to know

that this was your idea, you know?

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And so for me, I give away ideas all

the time and most of 'em are terrible,

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but I used to say, when I do lectures,

I, so during this lecture I'm gonna

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say something that's really stupid and

it's your job to figure out what it is,

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which is great.

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Because it took all the

pressure away, you know?

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Geri Fitz: Yeah, yeah.

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The allowing yourself to be human.

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Susan: Exactly.

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Well, I think that's something

that's really hard to do.

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Being vulnerable is, does not

come naturally to people who are

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high achievers, who have lots

of degrees and lots of experience

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with a combative mindset, you know?

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Geri Fitz: And where your identity's too

bound up in those external validations.

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Susan: Yes.

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And in what you do.

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And what matters is who you are.

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Because who you are is going to mean

that what you do is important and

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makes a difference, and has an impact.

400

:

And that's what I see in these

amazing people that I've had this

401

:

very precious relationship with,

is that they just like, wow.

402

:

And it's not because of me,

it is not because of me.

403

:

I'm just like a little, a little

background sort of or whatever.

404

:

But they then just take off and

they do these incredible things.

405

:

And they're very much interdisciplinary.

406

:

I have to say that I've mentored,

I don't know how many people,

407

:

but they're primarily women,

people in the global majority is

408

:

what people are using right now.

409

:

And women of color in the US,

people of color in the US.

410

:

Primarily women.

411

:

It's mostly women that I would work with.

412

:

Geri Fitz: Do people come to you and

ask explicitly if you would be a mentor?

413

:

And do you set it up as a

formal mentoring relationship?

414

:

Or is it much more emergent relational?

415

:

Susan: It's more emergent,

relational and you recognize it in

416

:

retrospect more than prospectively.

417

:

And, you know.

418

:

David says, well, are

you really a mentorer?

419

:

Because you don't have a

schedule and you're not talking.

420

:

But, I mean, there are a lot of people

right now, there are probably four

421

:

people that I talk with every week.

422

:

Wow.

423

:

In, Africa primarily, but you know.

424

:

So one of the folks I'm talk to

every week on Friday morning.

425

:

She just needs to have somebody

listen because she gets very little

426

:

validation in her university, like none.

427

:

And she's been forced to change

her field of study somewhat because

428

:

of what the university wants her to

do, if she wants to keep her job.

429

:

And she's very multicultural

in a very monoculture place.

430

:

Both country and university.

431

:

And she struggles with that.

432

:

And she also is very involved

with doing her own service.

433

:

And so she has issues there with dealing

with the other people who are working

434

:

on the conference that she's chairing or

whatever it might be, so just listening

435

:

means so much because she talks it

out, she answers her own questions.

436

:

They always do.

437

:

Sometimes it takes more

than one time, but yes.

438

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

439

:

But the gift of providing that space

for someone and that listening heart.

440

:

Susan: Well, people are just amazing.

441

:

And people in this field are

just absolutely incredible.

442

:

The intellect, the heart.

443

:

And I think probably the reason that

I mostly work with women is not just

444

:

because I'm a woman, but because women

are much more open to being authentic

445

:

and to learning how to be authentic.

446

:

I'm not actively modeling anything,

or, I mean, I don't think about

447

:

it, it's just who I am, you know?

448

:

Yeah.

449

:

So, yeah.

450

:

But

451

:

Geri Fitz: yeah, I love bringing

who you are, and I love that you

452

:

started off talking about the

:

453

:

Susan: Yeah.

454

:

Geri Fitz: That it's 2025.

455

:

The ways in which your role in

the work that you're doing in the

456

:

industry that legitimizes your

participation in the community.

457

:

And then your ongoing participation Yeah.

458

:

That has grown out of the service

and out of the relationships.

459

:

And the fact that you were still

at the last big conference Yeah.

460

:

In April, which was Yeah.

461

:

Amazing to see you there.

462

:

Susan: Yeah.

463

:

It was interesting because I sat

back at that conference and I looked

464

:

at, at breaks and the SIGCHI lounge

was at the back of the large hall

465

:

where all the food was served and the

posters and all that kind of stuff.

466

:

And I looked at it and I said, I

recognized maybe for the first time

467

:

that a, well, it wasn't the first time I

recognized that I didn't know everybody.

468

:

There was a time when I knew

everybody in this field.

469

:

No more.

470

:

I mean, hasn't been there for a long time.

471

:

But I looked at the people and

realized that my role has to

472

:

be fundamentally different now.

473

:

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

474

:

Susan: You know, I'm in

the crone phase I guess.

475

:

My role must be one of

simply being a support.

476

:

Because I'm not going to be able

to contribute to the intellectual

477

:

conversations that people are having.

478

:

That's not what I do anymore, you know.

479

:

I'm sure you're familiar

with the tale of indra's net.

480

:

I believe it's a Hindu, I'm not sure

where exactly it comes from, but

481

:

Indra throws a net across the world

and every place where that crosses,

482

:

every intersection, there's a bell.

483

:

And so whenever one person

moves, the whole network moves.

484

:

The whole network rings.

485

:

And I think that's really true, in

a sense that we all influence,

486

:

have an influence on other people.

487

:

Yeah.

488

:

And so I love that metaphor,

because I think it really gets at,

489

:

the whole way that I see the world.

490

:

it's interesting.

491

:

Another thing, I think you have to be

willing to be a beginner sometimes.

492

:

Geri Fitz: Hmm.

493

:

Susan: You know, and that's awkward.

494

:

Geri Fitz: Hmm.

495

:

Yeah.

496

:

Susan: I'm doing watercolor right now.

497

:

I'm starting to learn about watercolor

and it's like, oh man, is that hard?

498

:

And so the beginner

mind is also important.

499

:

Geri Fitz: Well, Susan, you said before,

it matters who you are and we're really

500

:

grateful for who you are and the way

that it has mattered to this community

501

:

in so many different ways over the years.

502

:

And for

503

:

Susan: Well, thank you so much.

504

:

That means so much coming from you

because you are just one of the

505

:

bright lights and you are a person

who gives so much to the community.

506

:

And so many people, when you

mention Geraldine Fitzpatrick,

507

:

they say, do you know her?

508

:

Isn't she amazing?

509

:

So, you know, it's important.

510

:

It means a lot coming from you because

I really honor and respect you.

511

:

I think you're amazing.

512

:

Thank you.

513

:

Geri Fitz: So, all the very best,

and thank you for your time today.

514

:

Susan: Well, thank you.

515

:

Geri Fitz: Now that may sound

like the end, but it's not.

516

:

After we got to this point, Susan

and I continued chatting informally.

517

:

And this is when she started sharing

about some very personal experiences,

518

:

often very painful experiences or dealing

with a lot of different adversities.

519

:

And they're reflections to do with loss

and getting older, and also various

520

:

loss and adversity experiences across

the lifespan that she's dealt with.

521

:

And again, you just hear this amazing

person of Susan coming through with her

522

:

ability to reflect and find the positive

in things and find a way through, and

523

:

always with an orientation to others.

524

:

So I asked Susan if I could

also share some of this

525

:

discussion and she kindly agreed.

526

:

So we start off here where she's talking

about sailing, which is something that

527

:

her and David husband really love to

do, and some of her particular health

528

:

challenges at the moment around that.

529

:

And we go on from there.

530

:

Susan: I have a couple of sailing

shots, which I really like.

531

:

Yeah.

532

:

Um,

533

:

you can learn a lot from sailing.

534

:

Geri Fitz: Oh, that would be a

big thing about trust as well.

535

:

And relationships.

536

:

Yeah.

537

:

'cause you'd have to trust, I mean, you'd

just going with the flow with the weather,

538

:

what you control and can't control.

539

:

Susan: Exactly.

540

:

And you know, you sometimes you

just can't get where you want go.

541

:

You can't, the wind is blowing

the wrong direction and

542

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

543

:

Susan: It's gonna be like gale force

for the next month and so you have

544

:

to go someplace else, you know?

545

:

Or you have to

546

:

Geri Fitz: And do you go off

sailing for months at a time.

547

:

Susan: Yes, we used to

before I dislocated my hip.

548

:

Yeah.

549

:

We, the longest I've been

living aboard was four months.

550

:

And that was primarily Intercoastal

waterway, so it was protected sailing.

551

:

But nowadays it's like too

dangerous for me to be on board.

552

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah, I know.

553

:

You can't risk falling again.

554

:

Susan: But, you know,

555

:

if I'm, if I am not gonna be able to sail,

then there are other things that I can do.

556

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

557

:

Susan: That they're different.

558

:

Geri Fitz: Is that, is this the

watercolor water painting part of that?

559

:

Susan: Yeah, watercolor is part of it.

560

:

And I discovered, early on, well,

in:

561

:

Our first daughter was four and a half,

and our second daughter was diagnosed

562

:

at 28 weeks with, autosomal recessive

polycystic kidney disease, which is

563

:

not common and had never been di never

been diagnosed prenatally before.

564

:

So they didn't have any way of telling

us what they thought the outcome would

565

:

be because didn't usually happen.

566

:

They didn't usually find it till

kids were like four and a half five.

567

:

That was scary.

568

:

But um, you know, it

turned out that she died.

569

:

And

570

:

Geri Fitz: I'm so sorry.

571

:

Susan: Well, and it's, you know,

that is just such a, it is tragic.

572

:

And it's not that uncommon.

573

:

And we all have things

like that in our lives.

574

:

Whether it's a child or a parent

or a friend, or, for some people

575

:

it's stubbing their toe, you know?

576

:

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

577

:

Susan: And what I learned was that,

well, the image I had was that we'd

578

:

taken Sarah Beth's life and we put

it on the countertop at Tiffany's,

579

:

high end, super expensive store.

580

:

Stuff I'm never gonna be able

to afford even if I wanted it.

581

:

And we took it and they

took away her life.

582

:

It was gone.

583

:

And I had two options at that point.

584

:

I could walk away.

585

:

Being angry and bitter my whole life.

586

:

Or I could say, well, I can't have

what I really want, but I can have

587

:

something else that's wonderful.

588

:

And instead, and so that actually

was the point where I cracked open.

589

:

That's the point where I simply

couldn't be inauthentic anymore.

590

:

I had to just be who I was.

591

:

And the rest is history, as they say.

592

:

You know, it was, and so, I mean, I

think there's some people who aren't

593

:

two by four to the head learners like

me, but, if it's gonna happen, you

594

:

might as well learn something from it.

595

:

Right?

596

:

Geri Fitz: We're all different.

597

:

We're all so different.

598

:

Susan: We're, we're.

599

:

And it's, that's what

makes it so wonderful.

600

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah, it is.

601

:

It is.

602

:

It is.

603

:

One of the courses I often teach or

workshops I run for different people.

604

:

I talk about, crafting your, underlined,

italicised, good professional life.

605

:

Yeah.

606

:

And that the main message I'm trying

to get through is, you can be you.

607

:

Yeah.

608

:

Then, then, I can give you some

tools or tips and tricks about

609

:

how to reflect on who's you.

610

:

Mm-hmm.

611

:

Who you are at your best and

who you wanna be, whatever.

612

:

But it's okay.

613

:

We're all different.

614

:

Susan: Yeah, absolutely.

615

:

Yeah.

616

:

And you know, when I think about it,

617

:

my brother basically

dropped dead in February.

618

:

Geri Fitz: Oh.

619

:

Susan: And so, oh, it hasn't been fun.

620

:

And so I wondered when he was dying,

what did he think about his life?

621

:

Did he regret anything?

622

:

Did he feel?

623

:

And I realized that if I were to drop

dead right now, I've had an amazing life.

624

:

I've had an amazing opportunity to be with

and learn from so many amazing people.

625

:

And in so many different contexts

that, that richness just kind

626

:

of, it's kind of seeped in.

627

:

And so if I were to literally

drop dead right now, you know.

628

:

It's not what I want, but No.

629

:

Geri Fitz: Oh, it's a, it's a

nice point of reflection though.

630

:

Yeah.

631

:

Good life.

632

:

Yeah.

633

:

Susan: Well, I mean, I'm

getting up there in age, so, mm.

634

:

And I can't keep up with

the youngins anymore.

635

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah, yeah.

636

:

That's

637

:

Susan: all.

638

:

Yeah.

639

:

No point in trying.

640

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

641

:

Because

642

:

you are aware that it's sort

of at the pointier end of life.

643

:

Susan: Yeah.

644

:

It's your legacy.

645

:

What,

646

:

Geri Fitz: And you're only going

to be as healthy as you are now.

647

:

Susan: Yeah.

648

:

Well, you can be intellectually and

psychologically healthy or even healthier.

649

:

Your body may not agree with you on that.

650

:

My body doesn't agree.

651

:

Geri Fitz: Body definitely doesn't agree.

652

:

Susan: No, my body does not agree at all.

653

:

Yeah.

654

:

But yeah, it's, it's, it's really amazing.

655

:

Geri Fitz: And that is the real end

now, and Susan is really amazing.

656

:

I know I have so much to reflect

on after hearing the way that she's

657

:

navigated the various challenges

that life's thrown her way and just

658

:

coming through again and again.

659

:

Her her deep service, her deep love

of people, and her, as she says,

660

:

listening with heart and the importance

of being you, being who you are.

661

:

Not so much what you do, but who you are.

662

:

So much to reflect on.

663

:

So thank you for listening

and do share this with others.

664

:

I think Susan's a great role model.

665

:

You can find the summary notes, a

transcript and related links for this

666

:

podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.

667

:

You can also subscribe to Changing

Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify.

668

:

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

669

:

we can do academia differently.

670

:

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

671

:

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

672

:

podcast with your colleagues.

673

:

Together we can make change happen.

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About the Podcast

Changing Academic Life
What can we do, individually and collectively, to change academic life to be more sustainable, collaborative and effective? This podcast series offers long-form conversations with academics and thought leaders who share stories and insights, as well as bite-size musings on specific topics drawing on literature and personal experience.
For more information go to https://changingacademiclife.com
Also see https://geraldinefitzpatrick.com to leave a comment.
NOTE: this is an interim site and missing transcripts for the older podcasts. Please contact me to request specific transcripts in the meanwhile.

About your host

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Geraldine Fitzpatrick

Geraldine Fitzpatrick (Geri Fitz), is an awarded Professor i.R. at TU Wien, with degrees in Informatics, and in Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology, after a prior career as a nurse/midwife. She has International experience working in academic, research, industry and clinical settings. She is a sought-after facilitator, speaker, trainer and coach who cares about creating environments in which people can thrive, enabling individual growth, and creating collegial collaborative cultures. She works with academics and professionals at all levels, from senior academic leaders, to mid and early career researchers, to PhD students. She is also a mentor for academics and has been/is on various Faculty evaluation panels and various International Advisory Boards. An example of a course is the Academic Leadership Development Course for Informatics Europe, run in conjunction with Austen Rainer, Queens Uni Belfast. She also offers bespoke courses.