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Episode 5

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Published on:

29th Oct 2025

Susan Dray (Part 1) on navigating interstices: academia, industry and global consulting (CAL132, S7E5)

The wonderful Dr Susan Dray shares her journey from obtaining a PhD in experimental and physiological psychology at UCLA to becoming a pivotal figure in the field of Human-Computer Interaction (HCI). Susan recounts her transition from academia to industry, including roles at Honeywell and American Express, and her eventual shift to independent consulting. She discusses the evolution of HCI and human factors, the significance of ethnographic studies, and the importance of listening with one's heart in diverse cultural contexts. Susan also reflects on the birth of SIGCHI, organizational challenges, and her expansive international work. Her insights provide a rich, historical perspective on the ongoing interplay between technology, human behavior, and organizational dynamics, and on the contextual and cultural nuances in technology adoption. She also demonstrates the power of curiosity, self reflection and a service mindset. 

Overview

00:29 Episode Introduction

02:49 Susan's Background

03:52 Transition from Academia to Industry

05:37 Early Challenges at Honeywell

06:56 Gaithersburg Conference and SIGCHI Formation

10:15 Human Factors and Computing Systems

13:34 Human Technology Impacts at Honeywell

16:40 The Mindset of a Scientist

22:59 Mentorship and Career Advice

26:30 Career Transitions and Reflections

28:06 Early Challenges in Consulting

30:12 Setting Up a Consulting Business

31:59 International Projects and Usability Studies

38:22 Navigating Cultural Differences and Lessons in Challenges

45:24 Innovative Research in Korea and South Africa

49:26 Embracing Discomfort Curiousity and Self Reflection

52:17 Wrap up

Related Links

Susan Dray webpage  and LinkedIn

ACM SIGCHI Special Interest Group On Computer-Human Interaction

Transcript
Geri Fitz:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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Susan: Well, my favorite word

is the word interstices.

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The space between.

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And that's where our

profession should live.

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Doesn't always.

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And that's definitely the space I live in.

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It's like this big web, so

you are and aren't part of all

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these different constituencies.

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It's really interesting.

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Geri Fitz: That's the voice of Susan Dray.

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And she is really interesting

and has had a really interesting

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career journey that she reflects on

here so deeply and so generously.

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Susan is one of the most senior

and respected and well loved

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people in our particular field

of human computer interaction.

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But what she has to share isn't

just specific to this field.

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Because the way she talks about the

different career transitions that she's

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made from academia and her experimental

physiological psychology background

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at UCLA to how she happened to work in

industry and then eventually moving to

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her own independent consulting work.

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The way that she discusses navigating

those challenges and finding her

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role in each of those place has

lessons, I think, for all of us,

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regardless of the field that we're in.

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And Susan is a just such a reflective

person that I can't even begin to

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summarize all the different themes that

we covered or point to some of the things

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that you hopefully will find useful.

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But you can just hear throughout

the quality of the person that she

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is, that she brings to all her work.

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That the rich care and reflection,

the way she talks about listening and

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empathy and curiosity and, and just her.

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Generosity and that is, so Susan.

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We ended up talking for a long

time, so I've decided to split

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this conversation into two.

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So this is part one that's mainly

focusing on her career path and, and her

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reflections and lessons along the way.

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I really hope you find this interesting.

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Susan Dray, I am so excited

to be talking to you today.

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It's such a pleasure.

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You've been on my list of

people that I want to talk to

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for a long time, so welcome.

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Susan: Well, thank you so much.

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I'm excited to be here.

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Yeah.

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This is excellent.

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I've wanted to have the kind of in-depth

conversation that I think we're gonna

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have today with you at, you know, forever.

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Yeah.

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You're just that sort of person, you know.

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Geri Fitz: Thank you.

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And, for people who don't know you do

you want to give a little bit of a

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short introduction to your background?

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Susan: Sure.

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Well, so I went to graduate school at

UCLA and I got my PhD in, one could

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say experimental psychology, or one

could say physiological psychology.

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They're both right.

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And, um, physiological psych may

seem like a stretch to HCI, but

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it really isn't because basically

I was studying the relationship

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between the brain and behavior.

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So I had to do a ton of

observation, naturalistic

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observation of animal behavior.

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And, but as I got to the end of my

time in grad school, I realized that

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in physio at that time, there were no

jobs in academia other than postdocs.

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And I really wanted to

get on with my life.

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Geri Fitz: So I'm curious,

why did you think that doing a

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postdoc wasn't having a life?

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Susan: Well, because, well, I'd

heard horror stories, but also I

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didn't, I didn't want to be in an

apprenticeship position for 10, 20 years.

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And at that time, the profession was

very young, so all of the academics in

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that field were also very young, so they

weren't going to be leaving anytime soon.

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And so it was sort of like, well, what do

we do plus, so then I decided, okay, I'm

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gonna leap out of the nest into industry.

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And it really did feel like

a leap out of the nest.

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It was so scary.

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Oh, man.

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But I was part of a, a thing at UCLA and

we were talking about leaving academia,

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this small little group, and a job was

posted at Honeywell and the person there

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said, well, this sounds kind of like you,

you know, it has people in it, you know.

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It wasn't HCI, it was human factors.

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Mm-hmm.

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HCI didn't exist.

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Yeah.

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I graduated in 1980.

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This was in 79 when I was doing this.

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Yeah.

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So I went and I interviewed and I got

the job and, boy, was that an eyeopener?

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I was working in man machine sciences.

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Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

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Susan: With a whole bunch of

psychologists, lovely, lovely people.

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But this girl, and that's

how they saw me as a girl,

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Geri Fitz: Uhhuh.

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Susan: So

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Geri Fitz: And were you bringing,

like this girl, was this girl asking

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different questions or wanting to

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Susan: Oh, definitely

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Geri Fitz: do different things?

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Susan: Yeah, definitely.

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Um, so I was asking really different

questions and I became an annoyance

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to them because I kept asking

these questions about, well, how

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are, how are people using that?

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You know?

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And they were going,

shut up, you bother me?

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And, and when the, carpal tunnel.

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Explosion.

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The kangaroo paw hysteria, in

Australia started to show its rear

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its ugly head, since the secretaries

were the ones with the problems, and

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they were women, and I was a girl,

so I was the one to take care of it.

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Well, the problem was they were

trying to do word processing on

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a 32 70, you know, IBM mainframe,

which is a really stupid idea.

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Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

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Susan: But, you know, so I, I

did, I dabbled in ergonomics.

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I, uh, but then when the Gaithersburg

conference, uh, information was

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posted, I went, I wanna go to that.

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And so I was one of the

hordes at Gaithersburg.

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Geri Fitz: And can you explain

the Gaithersburg Well, actually,

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. Before we get there, I, I don't

know anything about the kangaroo

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poor thingy that you were saying?

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Oh,

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Susan: oh, oh.

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So in the early eighties,

yeah, secretaries, people who

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were mostly secretaries started

reporting carpal tunnel problems.

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They started having all kinds of

carpal tunnel problems with their,

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you know, and, . But there was a

really important organizational piece

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too that tended to get overlooked,

which I really delved into a lot.

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Which annoyed people.

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But anyway.

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So for instance, the person who used

to be able to schedule this special

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conference room and she was the

gatekeeper and only she could schedule

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it now, anybody could schedule it.

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So she lost standing.

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So there was this whole organizational.

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So the young, younger people who had

more keyboard experience to that point,

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they were the ones who were getting ahead

and the, you know, the previous Scion of

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Yeah the secretarial pool was out lot.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Geri Fitz: And, and, status

and authority challenge.

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Susan: Exactly.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Susan: Mm-hmm.

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Geri Fitz: All of these really

interesting unintended or unanticipated

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consequences when people only

take sort of this narrow Yes.

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Technocentric view.

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Susan: Absolutely.

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And that was the absolute

only view in those days.

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Yeah.

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We had a waterfall method

of software development.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Susan: Where setting the system

requirements is step one and doing the

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user interface is step seven, you know,

or how, whatever, however many there

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are in your, um, waterfall method.

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So

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. Geri Fitz: Do you, do you think,

I mean, I guess I'm thinking,

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is that still happening now?

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You're talking about early eighties

and here we are mid twenties and

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it just, doesn't it feel like

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Susan: Yeah,

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Geri Fitz: We're still

learning that lesson?

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Susan: Yes, indeed.

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Yes, indeed.

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We still are learning that lesson

big time, and we learn it in

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different ways, in different places.

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Um, so in Africa it's a different set of

circumstances, a different set of, well,

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it's primarily cell phone technology,

et cetera, and it's different in.

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You know, Canada or the US

wherever, but yeah, exactly.

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Same old, same old.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Susan: You know.

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Geri Fitz: And with this whole trend

towards AI as well, it also feels like

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the early days of something new, like

a new wave of technology is when we get

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particularly blinded to Exactly, you know,

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Susan: exactly.

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Geri Fitz: The, the broader context and

the people issues and the organizational

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issues that the piece of technology has

to fit into, or disrupts or whatever.

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Susan: So at the time I was at

Honeywell, I was primarily in the,

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what was then the human factor society.

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Mm-hmm.

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Now human factors and ergonomics society.

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And I was chair of the computer

systems tech group, but then also,

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um, was part of the organizational

design and management group, or ODAM.

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We loved that.

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Geri Fitz: But what a good name.

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Susan: Yeah.

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Wasn't it great.

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ODAM.

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Um, and you know, that group

is still going strong and you

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know, I was real involved in all

of that organizational stuff.

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It seemed to me that, you know, we

had started with the very physical,

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like ergonomics and then we moved

into the cognitive and then we moved

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into the organizational, and then we

moved into the cultural and societal.

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So it's kind of this opening up,

um, and you have to make it your

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difference wherever you can make it.

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Yeah.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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And that'll be different

at different times too.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Yeah, The Gaithersburg,

what was that about?

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That you were Ah,

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Susan: yes.

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Um, so the Gaithersburg conference.

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Geri Fitz: Gaither Gaithersburg.

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Gaithersburg.

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Susan: Yeah.

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And Human factors and computing systems.

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That was the first, specifically Human

Factors and computing systems conference.

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There had been pieces, you know, we

had the computer systems tech group

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had stuff at HFES and there were other,

but that was the first one that was

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like this big interdisciplinary thing

that, you know, where they expected a

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small number and a huge number came.

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Geri Fitz: Hmm.

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Susan: And it was after the first

day of that conference that a bunch

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of us from different organizations,

uh, got together and said, we can't

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let the spirit of Gaithersburg die.

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And so we got together in the

evening and formed SIGCHI.

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Geri Fitz: Wow.

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Susan: Yeah.

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Geri Fitz: And for those who don't

know, SIGCHI stands for Special Interest

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Group Computer Human Interaction.

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Susan: Yeah.

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And I wanted it to be, I wanted it

to be human computer interaction.

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Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

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Susan: But some Wisecracker who

will remain nameless, because I

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don't remember the name, um, said,

well then it would be SIG and that

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won't work, so we'll be SIGCHI.

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So it,

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Geri Fitz: it wasn't an argument

about computers first or trying to

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target particular audiences, but, uh,

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Susan: That's what they said.

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But this guy was a computer.

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Geri Fitz: Do you want a

hiccup or do you want a CHI?

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Susan: That's right.

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Geri Fitz: That's interesting.

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Susan: Yeah, it was.

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Geri Fitz: So, I want come back to

SIGCHI because it also connects to

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something I'd want to talk to you

about, about your incredible heart for

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service, which you've done from those,

that early days in that:

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So you were at Honeywell and,

and like at Honeywell being this

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strange person who kept saying 'Yes,

but, and what about the people?'

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Susan: Yeah.

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Geri Fitz: Finding a little bit of a

community at the Gaithersburg thing.

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Right?

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Right.

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And continuing at Honeywell, like

did that change your work back?

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Susan: Well, I changed into a new role.

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I moved into a new role in corporate

information management where I was the

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director of human technology impacts.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And during that time, the then CEO

of, of Honeywell at Spencer had one

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of those moments that CEOs often have

when they're shaving in the morning and

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he was thinking, Hmm, I wonder we're

bringing in this new voicemail system.

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That's how old this is, this old

voicemail system, new voicemail system.

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Geri Fitz: Mm.

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Susan: And I, but I don't want it

to disrupt the culture of Honeywell

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because Honeywell has a really, had a

really strong culture in those days.

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Not so much anymore.

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But anyway, and so he was wondering

what's the impact of technology on

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corporate culture, which was a very,

very good question and very definitely

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a question that he should ask.

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But of course, it rolled downhill to

the woman who was the vice president for

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information systems and the head of HR.

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And then it rolled downhill from them

into my lap and into the lap of an HR

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guy who basically didn't do a whole lot.

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So I spent four or five months

interviewing everybody I could think of.

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We chartered a specific study.

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I don't remember what it was about

exactly, but um, and then we tried

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to synthesize it and we came up

with like five, these are the

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five big things to be aware of.

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The only one I really remember,

which is probably an indicative of,

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of what was really important was

that technology gives the means, but

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values determine what choices you make.

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Mm.

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So, and, and that's still true, right?

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Geri Fitz: That's still really true.

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And I mean, that's something that

we should be putting up on a sticker

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on the walls to remind ourselves.

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Susan: Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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I, I was so honored to be able to do this

work, and it was, you know, at first I

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thought there were good technologies and

bad technologies, but then I just, in

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fact, I came across this the other day

when I was cleaning out an old hard drive.

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There's a picture of a

plant on a printer and

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it's like, because I thought,

you know, printers are good.

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Susan: Well, obviously

not in that setting.

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They weren't good because

it's a plant stand.

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Geri Fitz: It had, it had a plant on.

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It was a good plant holder.

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Susan: Yeah, exactly.

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Got a little dicey when

they overwatered it, but,

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Geri Fitz: yeah.

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So something I'm curious

about there as well mm-hmm.

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Is.

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You talked about doing a PhD in more

experimental psychology or physiology.

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So they were your core skill sets,

but you've just talked about this,

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going around and talking to people and

interviewing people and diverse people.

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Susan: Well, so the mindset of

an experimental psychologist

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is the mindset of a scientist.

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And so I approached things, you know,

looking at them scientifically, but

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I had been so imbued throughout my

career with listening, skilled, active

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listening and with service and with, just

trying to be open to new experiences.

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And that had to do with

personal, you know, stuff.

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But I had basically.

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Gotten to a point where the only way I,

I knew that the only way I could find out

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about a lot of this stuff was to talk to

people, but it's not enough to see what

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they say.

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Because you

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Susan: also have to

see what they're doing.

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And those are often not the same.

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Geri Fitz: Not the same.

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Susan: Not the same.

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And uh, but you have to capture

both because they're both important.

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And then you have to

kind of synthesize it.

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Well, the synthesis and the way you're

looking at it and the synthesis.

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That's all scientific method.

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Mm.

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Um, and then it's just, this is

a skillset that you have to have.

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Well, okay.

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Develop it.

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Geri Fitz: But it still sounds like

it was quite a radical, innovative

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way of thinking that brought together

this scientific mindset and something

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fundamental about you and your

people skills or people orientation.

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Susan: Yeah, I guess, I mean, I didn't

think of it that way at the time because

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I was just, you know, like the duck

kind of was doing go as fast as I could,

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but, but thinking back on it, yeah,

it was, it was a very yeasty time.

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A lot of, a lot of growth,

a lot of new things.

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A lot of, I mean, I was in, I had been

in academia, I'm now in the military

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industrial complex, and I'm a pacifist.

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How does that work?

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You know,

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Geri Fitz: I forgot that

that's Honeywell's background.

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Susan: I was working in the

field, the part of Honeywell

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that was doing defense contracts.

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So the biggest contract I was on was

called the Standoff Target Acquisition

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System, or SOTAS.

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Everything

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Susan: has an acronym in the Army.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or in the military.

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And so for that one, I said, we got

the manuals, I got, they, they had

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written other people in Honeywell, in

the department had written the manuals.

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And I said, well, you know,

let's, let me just look at these.

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And so I ran a reading analysis and

they were written at the 17 grade level.

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Of

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course they're PhDs.

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And

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Susan: they thought they

were like toning it down.

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Well the guys

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who were going to be in the

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Susan: trailers using this

read at a sixth grade level.

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So it's like, okay guys.

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What

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are we going to do with this?

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Susan: You know?

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And then of course there wasn't

AI and there wasn't an easy

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way to go about doing this.

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I mean, literally there weren't

even computers holding it in memory.

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It had to all be retyped.

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So it was, again, why

are you bringing this up?

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Well, I'm bringing this up because I think

you want your thing to succeed, don't you?

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Geri Fitz: Mm.

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Yeah.

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Susan: But, so it was really fascinating.

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We did a study with bringing guys in

who would've would be operators and

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running a simulation of the system

and then trying to see how they

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could make sense of the radar returns.

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Because basically this is a helicopter

sitting up behind the enemy lines,

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looking at the enemy, across the enemy

lines, and trying to figure out where.

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You know, fuel dumps and where

are, you know, where are the

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troops and all this kind of stuff.

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I mean, it's so easy now you

don't even have to think about it.

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Right.

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But in those days it

was not, it was, yeah.

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Very.

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Okay.

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Geri Fitz: I think there's still lots

of experiences that people would report

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where there are similar patterns that

are still repeating in that same thing.

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Mm-hmm.

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So you said earlier that the

scary thing of going into

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industry did scary play out?

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Susan: Oh, yes, yes, yes.

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If Honeywell hadn't paid for

my move, I would've left Uhhuh.

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I couldn't afford to pay for

the move to repay them, and you

385

:

had to be there at least a year.

386

:

Geri Fitz: And so what was scary?

387

:

Susan: Well, so it was this.

388

:

I was new in this area.

389

:

I was new in the

organization in Honeywell.

390

:

I was

391

:

new in man-machine sciences.

392

:

Susan: I had been hired by the manager

who left the day after I arrived.

393

:

And I found out my supervisor

didn't want me there.

394

:

And he said, you know, basically you

were only hired because of EEO,

395

:

so basically, I don't care you

396

:

Geri Fitz: being equal opportunities.

397

:

Susan: Yeah.

398

:

Sorry, yes.

399

:

Equal opportunity.

400

:

Yeah.

401

:

It was a diversity hire is

how they would say it today.

402

:

Yeah.

403

:

And.

404

:

That kind of made me, I wasn't going

in with the highest confidence level

405

:

in the world because of all the change.

406

:

Plus unfortunately, my now spouse of

45 years, if you can believe it or not,

407

:

was still doing an internship in LA.

408

:

So we were separated for the first

six months and, so it was all this

409

:

stuff going on and these were all,

psychologists are really good at trying

410

:

to hide their bias, but they can't

really, 'cause nobody really can.

411

:

Mm.

412

:

Susan: It was coming

out all over the place.

413

:

Yeah.

414

:

Anyway, it was a long time ago, but

conditions were really, really different.

415

:

I was the first PhD level

woman in man machine sciences.

416

:

Well, there was one other woman before

me, and she married the CEO e so I sort

417

:

of thought that wasn't my career path.

418

:

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

419

:

You obviously found your place there

because you stayed there nine years.

420

:

Susan: Yeah.

421

:

Eight, eight and a half.

422

:

Yeah.

423

:

Something like that.

424

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

425

:

Susan: Yeah.

426

:

I, I did, I had a wonderful mentor there.

427

:

Irma Wyman, who was the head of

corporate information management,

428

:

basically ran the IT systems for

the corporation, well for corporate.

429

:

And she was amazing.

430

:

She was a single woman, never married,

she wore no nonsense shoes with big crepe

431

:

soles that squeaked wherever she went.

432

:

She wore ill-fitting suits.

433

:

And, but she was brilliant.

434

:

She got an engineering degree

from, I think it was the University

435

:

of Michigan in the sixties.

436

:

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

437

:

Susan: You know, one of

like two women in her class.

438

:

So she was really quite remarkable.

439

:

You had to be remarkable in those days.

440

:

Days you would've.

441

:

Geri Fitz: Yes.

442

:

You would've had to have been.

443

:

Yeah.

444

:

Susan: Yeah.

445

:

So I was terrified of her, but because,

you know, authority and all this, but

446

:

she had me in periodically to just talk

about my career and the thing that she

447

:

said, which I thought was the possibly

the best advice she ever gave me.

448

:

She said, you have to have a career plan.

449

:

You have to think about what you

wanna do, but you have to be willing

450

:

to jump, drop it at a moment's notice

if something better comes along.

451

:

Mm-hmm.

452

:

Something that takes you

in a different direction.

453

:

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

454

:

Susan: I thought that was very, very wise.

455

:

Mm.

456

:

Um.

457

:

Geri Fitz: So she initiated the

whole thing around the mentoring.

458

:

You didn't ask her to mentor you?

459

:

Susan: I didn't ask her directly.

460

:

I think my boss asked her.

461

:

Yeah.

462

:

Um, he reported to her.

463

:

Geri Fitz: But still she did it.

464

:

And that what a precious gift.

465

:

Susan: Yeah.

466

:

Oh, absolutely.

467

:

Absolutely.

468

:

I've had not a lot of mentors

in my life, but she was like

469

:

the total, total package there.

470

:

She wasn't like warm and fuzzy.

471

:

Our personality styles were about

as different as you could be.

472

:

But she listened and she had suggestions

and they'd be 15 minute meetings.

473

:

Mm-hmm.

474

:

You know, crammed or one way she was

walking from one place to another.

475

:

Yeah.

476

:

But that's fine, when you get wise

477

:

Geri Fitz: advice, so That's right.

478

:

What, what career plan did you have in

mind then on the basis of her advice?

479

:

Susan: Oh boy.

480

:

I don't, I don't really remember.

481

:

I really loved my first boss in corporate

information management, and it was

482

:

under Rich that I did the Spencer study

and, you know, was doing a whole bunch

483

:

of things that I loved doing, and I

prioritized service as well because.

484

:

That was the way I was keeping in touch

with what was going on in the field.

485

:

And plus, you know, it was fun.

486

:

But then I got a boss who, whose

comment about Bach was, well, you

487

:

know, he just, he, he overdoes it, you

know, too many notes kind of thing.

488

:

And like, uh, I'm a Bach aficionado,

so that did not sit right.

489

:

But that was his kind of

attitude about everything.

490

:

It was like smaller,

smaller, smaller, smaller.

491

:

And it became very clear that

I just could not, I was never

492

:

gonna thrive in that environment.

493

:

Mm-hmm.

494

:

And luckily another opportunity

came along at American Express and

495

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

496

:

Susan: You know, there was that.

497

:

Geri Fitz: That's interesting

how you get to a point.

498

:

Where you just, it's not right.

499

:

I, I'm really interested in people's

decision points about those transitions

500

:

You have that a lot of the conversations

I've had recently, or it feels like

501

:

there's been lots of really interesting

transitions and whether it's to

502

:

doing something very different or

whether it's, as you just described,

503

:

them moving, saying I've enough here

somewhere else in the same sort of work.

504

:

Susan: Yeah.

505

:

Yeah.

506

:

I, that definitely the way it's been.

507

:

And in the mean, in reality it was also

partly that things were closing down

508

:

for me, that they were no longer viable.

509

:

And so I had to get out and that's

how I felt when I left American

510

:

Express to go out on my own.

511

:

Mm-hmm.

512

:

I'd had like five bosses in one

year and it was total turmoil

513

:

and, ultimately they didn't really

care about what what I was doing.

514

:

Yeah.

515

:

I was tooting this horn and trying

to, so I finally said got to do it.

516

:

Geri Fitz: That's what, what was

that decision like because, the

517

:

scary going from postdoc to industry,

what was it like going from a salary

518

:

job to setting up your own company?

519

:

Susan: Well, I say that was sheer terror.

520

:

Geri Fitz: So scary was easy.

521

:

And this is terror.

522

:

Susan: Yeah.

523

:

That made it all look.

524

:

Yeah.

525

:

There were, at the time about

five consultants in the field.

526

:

Deborah May, she was the first.

527

:

There were four of us were women.

528

:

So, that kind of gives you a,

an idea of, so it was terrifying.

529

:

I mean, because I had had to learn how

do you present this field to people who

530

:

have never thought about it in their life.

531

:

Yeah.

532

:

And, and for whom it seems very esoteric.

533

:

Yeah.

534

:

So in the beginning, well

actually Arne Lund saved me.

535

:

I was, we were getting to a point,

I think I was about six months in

536

:

and nothing, I hadn't gotten a job

yet a, a consulting gig and I was

537

:

really scared, and we were starting

to get to a point where we couldn't

538

:

really afford this a whole lot longer.

539

:

Yeah.

540

:

Yeah.

541

:

So I interviewed for a job at Bell

Labs, which is in New Jersey, and

542

:

I lived in Minnesota and that's a

big distance between, and I got the

543

:

job and I had to give them yes or no

by, the way I'm remembering, it is

544

:

probably not exactly the way it was.

545

:

Yeah.

546

:

But the way I remember it was by

five o'clock on Friday afternoon.

547

:

Yeah.

548

:

And at four o'clock, Arne

called and said, say, what would

549

:

you think about doing this?

550

:

And it's like, oh, thank you.

551

:

So that's why I'm

552

:

Geri Fitz: And doing this was what?

553

:

Susan: It was a usability evaluation

of some queuing systems for phones.

554

:

Mm-hmm.

555

:

And I had done a bunch of work on

queuing for this SOTAS project.

556

:

So I mean, I was very familiar with, you

know, attention and blah, blah, blah.

557

:

So.

558

:

Geri Fitz: Just in time.

559

:

Susan: Just in time.

560

:

Yes.

561

:

Geri Fitz: Interesting too, the

way that sort of thing can happen.

562

:

When you set up your own consulting, what

were the parameters you gave yourself?

563

:

Like I know that you said you were,

it's getting to the point where you

564

:

couldn't afford it for much longer.

565

:

Had you pre-thought give it a try

for 12 months or what were there any

566

:

Susan: No, it was, much

more instinctual, I think.

567

:

Mm-hmm.

568

:

It was just a sense of I've

got to get out of this.

569

:

Mm.

570

:

So, and at that point, because of the

work that I'd done in service to both

571

:

SIGCHI and HFES at that time, my

name was known, so I thought, well,

572

:

I've got the name recognition now, so

of course that was name recognition

573

:

within my own field, which I sort

of didn't factor in, but, you know.

574

:

Yeah.

575

:

We live and learn.

576

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

577

:

What was it about doing your own thing

that made it more attractive than

578

:

looking for another job somewhere else?

579

:

Susan: Well, it was partly that there

were no other jobs in the Twin Cities.

580

:

Oh, okay.

581

:

That definitely played into it.

582

:

Yeah.

583

:

It was a tough time.

584

:

I mean, there were, it wasn't an opening

up of, of the field at that time.

585

:

And, it's hard to really remember

back then what I was thinking because,

586

:

I don't know, I think I was just so

scared at that point that I wasn't

587

:

going to be able to do something.

588

:

And I talked a lot with Deborah

and other, the other consultants.

589

:

Pat Billingsley was another one, Carol

Klyver and I had long conversations.

590

:

And if you'd been around, I

would've had conversations with you.

591

:

If I had known you then.

592

:

But, you know, so it was like

little by little feeling your way.

593

:

Mm.

594

:

And then figuring out what

way was going to work for me.

595

:

Yes.

596

:

And so when I was working on a

project for Debbie Mrazek at, at,

597

:

uh, Hewlett Packard, we were looking

at, um, well, they had a, they

598

:

had a problem that was showing up.

599

:

It was a quality problem.

600

:

So inkjet printing, the way that it picks

up paper, they have rollers that, you

601

:

know, you've probably had a paper jam

and you've seen those rollers, right?

602

:

Yeah.

603

:

Well, those rollers, what I didn't

know was among many other things

604

:

was that there's light, light

talc between the different sheets

605

:

so that it keeps them separate.

606

:

And what was happening there was

a quality defect with the rubber.

607

:

They changed rubber manufacturer, and

there was a defect that, that meant

608

:

it, it bonded to the talc very quickly

and therefore it wouldn't pick up.

609

:

And so we realized that we had,

they had to come up with a solution.

610

:

Well, they came up with this really

kind of cool solution, where they,

611

:

they had this big thing that looked like

a Brillo pad, you know, a scrubby pad

612

:

on a spring that you put underneath.

613

:

You took off the paper tray and then

you put this underneath the rollers,

614

:

and then they had a floppy disc.

615

:

This is back then that you put into the

computer to take control of the rollers

616

:

for 15 minutes so that they would go.

617

:

And so we were, we had to

test it in Germany and we did

618

:

it in France, both places.

619

:

We were also doing family

visits at that time.

620

:

So we did usability evaluations of

this thing during the day, which by

621

:

the way, people saw it as a benefit.

622

:

It's like, oh, well that's awfully nice.

623

:

Turn your quality problem

into a, into a positive thing.

624

:

But then we also then did, at

night, we did family visits.

625

:

Becasue we'd done family visits in the US.

626

:

Mm.

627

:

That was, I think that was the

first commercial ethnographic study.

628

:

It certainly was the

first in Hewlett Packard.

629

:

It was, if it wasn't the first, it

was one of the first where we, you

630

:

know, spent four hours Yeah with

people just hanging out, seeing

631

:

how they were using their printer.

632

:

And they'd always say, I do

not understand how we can talk

633

:

about printers for four hours.

634

:

We can't either.

635

:

And then we would, we do.

636

:

Yeah.

637

:

Geri Fitz: I love the

evolution of your skillset.

638

:

You've got a problem.

639

:

And you evolve your skillset

to address the problem at hand.

640

:

Susan: Exactly.

641

:

Absolutely.

642

:

Mm-hmm.

643

:

Yeah.

644

:

Yeah.

645

:

So, so that meant that was

my first international.

646

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

647

:

Susan: Well, first international

as a consultant, I'd done

648

:

international stuff for Honeywell.

649

:

I've done teaching, I taught about

human factors in three locations.

650

:

And, big deal.

651

:

I mean, in, in retrospect it doesn't

feel like it was such a big deal,

652

:

but at the time it was pretty scary.

653

:

Hmm.

654

:

Just because I'd never done

that, you know, and I'd never

655

:

done that in the US either.

656

:

'cause I wasn't an academic, right?

657

:

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

658

:

Susan: But people in the industry

always thought of me as an academic

659

:

and people in academia always thought

of me as a person in industry.

660

:

Yeah.

661

:

So it's kind of like, well,

662

:

Geri Fitz: Do you think that's

still the case in general?

663

:

Susan: Probably, yeah.

664

:

I think, I don't know.

665

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

666

:

Susan: I don't know.

667

:

I mean.

668

:

Geri Fitz: Interesting.

669

:

In between roles in a way.

670

:

Bridging roles.

671

:

Susan: Yes.

672

:

Well, my favorite word is

the word inter interstices.

673

:

Mm.

674

:

The space between.

675

:

Yeah.

676

:

And that's, that's where

our profession should live.

677

:

Doesn't always.

678

:

Yeah.

679

:

And that's definitely the space I live in.

680

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

681

:

Susan: I'm in that

interstitial moment between.

682

:

Geri Fitz: And it's also pointing

to the different disciplines

683

:

that you can be in between or the

different sectors or Absolutely.

684

:

It is a really important

like that connecting.

685

:

Susan: Exactly.

686

:

It's like, like this big web, you know?

687

:

Yeah.

688

:

So you are and aren't part of all

these different constituencies.

689

:

It's really interesting.

690

:

Geri Fitz: Mm.

691

:

Susan: It could be frustrating.

692

:

Geri Fitz: And you were there at

the very birth of the SIGCHI peer

693

:

professional community, and that as

a community has always had, well,

694

:

especially from what you've said, people

from industry at the very beginning,

695

:

quite at the very beginning Yeah.

696

:

As well as people from academia.

697

:

Yeah.

698

:

So already it had this very mixed profile.

699

:

Right.

700

:

And it, it has always felt like

the community, I mean, sometimes,

701

:

I'd almost say for the misfits who

don't fit neatly in somewhere else.

702

:

Yeah.

703

:

Would you go to psychology conferences?

704

:

Susan: I don't.

705

:

It mostly has to do with time and money.

706

:

It was hard enough to carve

out time for HCI conferences.

707

:

Although I did go to like

the British HCI conferences.

708

:

I went to a number of those.

709

:

INTERACT lots of those.

710

:

I did a keynote at the International

Ergonomics Association in Sydney.

711

:

Yeah.

712

:

Wow.

713

:

It was great.

714

:

It was, uh, not throwing the

baby out with the bath water.

715

:

So it was talking about organizational

consulting and how we needed to

716

:

incorporate that and not just

throw it out when we kind of

717

:

said, we're going to do a thing.

718

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

719

:

Picking up on the

international thing as well.

720

:

Yeah.

721

:

You went on in your work.

722

:

I think of you as having quite

an international profile just

723

:

in terms of your work.

724

:

Like you've worked in

different countries and

725

:

Susan: 29 countries.

726

:

Yeah.

727

:

Geri Fitz: 29 countries in the end.

728

:

Yeah.

729

:

Susan: Every continent except Antarctica.

730

:

Still want to do that, but

don't think I ever will.

731

:

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

732

:

Susan: Penguins are not very good

usability evaluators, you know?

733

:

Geri Fitz: But there are

some humans down there.

734

:

But, that's true.

735

:

Talk, talk about some of the learnings

about, you know, you're American,

736

:

your training, your education

is within the American context.

737

:

Most of your work in the beginning

was in an American context.

738

:

Absolutely.

739

:

Maybe a bit internationally

with Honeywell, as you said,

740

:

but that's still within,

741

:

Susan: it's still yeah.

742

:

Geri Fitz: A uniform

organizational culture.

743

:

Susan: Right, right.

744

:

Geri Fitz: What were some

of the big challenges and

745

:

mindset changes and that to,

746

:

Susan: So most of the work

we did internationally was

747

:

for American companies.

748

:

Okay.

749

:

So part of it was translating

for these Americans to understand

750

:

what they were seeing and to

understand what the findings were.

751

:

So, for instance, in India,

people at that time anyway, I don't

752

:

know if this is still true, did

not install software themselves.

753

:

Somebody else would come to

their house and install software.

754

:

So we did us, I did a usability

evaluation with people from India

755

:

or people from Bangalore who we were

trying to have them install Windows 95.

756

:

That tells you how long ago this was, and

they just kept not being able to do it.

757

:

And at first I'm going,

what am I doing wrong?

758

:

And then it started to become clear.

759

:

Oh, duh.

760

:

And so I started asking them, who

does this normally in your household?

761

:

Well, you know, somebody comes

in, or my brother-in-law or,

762

:

or my husband or whatever.

763

:

It's never them, well, of course

they didn't understand how to do it.

764

:

It was clear if you knew about

installing software, but it

765

:

certainly wasn't clear if you didn't.

766

:

And, and the whole concept of installing

software was not something that they

767

:

were, that they really could grasp.

768

:

So it's like trying to help my client who

was saying, you're doing it wrong, you're

769

:

doing it wrong, you're doing it wrong.

770

:

To say to the people who were Yeah.

771

:

Say No, actually what's happening

is it doesn't work for them.

772

:

Geri Fitz: Which is a different

formulation, isn't it?

773

:

Susan: Absolutely.

774

:

Absolutely.

775

:

In one case, we were testing in

Russia, this new computer that, we

776

:

did a lot of work for the emerging

markets group that was looking at

777

:

the next billion users and all this,

and they developed this computer.

778

:

We won't go into the details.

779

:

But anyway.

780

:

We were in Russia for two weeks

in Samara, second tier city,

781

:

and it was so frustrating.

782

:

We were doing usability of a during

the day, but then we were wanted to go

783

:

and observe the out of box experience.

784

:

Well, the financial systems which were

supposed to be set up so that they lower

785

:

income people could use this because it

was basically kind of a rent a computer.

786

:

They weren't set up, so that didn't work.

787

:

Finally, we just liberated a machine

and took it and tried to do the install.

788

:

Had someone do the in,

you know, users do do it.

789

:

Total car crash, and it was partly the

user interface, but a lot of it had

790

:

to do with just like you, you have to

set up an account in russia online.

791

:

And then you have to link that account to

your Flexco account and link that to your

792

:

wireless or to your cell phone provider.

793

:

And it was like conceptually a nightmare.

794

:

Mm.

795

:

So we did this with one family, and

I'm going, and it took six hours

796

:

and we had the guy who actually

wrote the software there helping us.

797

:

Finally, it's like, we're gonna try to get

this thing installed one way or another.

798

:

Well, we couldn't.

799

:

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

800

:

Susan: So then we tried it

again with another family.

801

:

Same thing.

802

:

So that night I wrote an email

saying, you do not have a product.

803

:

Well that got the general

manager kind of in a tizz.

804

:

So the next morning I'm walking

along the Volga River and I get

805

:

this phone call and it's the head

of the business general manager.

806

:

And he is saying, what do you

mean we don't have a product?

807

:

I said, okay, well maybe I'm wrong.

808

:

Let me just tell you what happened.

809

:

And then I went through what

had happened and by the end he

810

:

went, oh, I guess you're right.

811

:

Mm.

812

:

So, it was speaking truth to

power is really scary sometimes.

813

:

Yeah.

814

:

There's a scary, a scary

framing to this whole thing.

815

:

Mm-hmm.

816

:

But in reality it's scary in retrospect.

817

:

And it was scary before I

got started doing things.

818

:

Mm-hmm.

819

:

But then once I was there.

820

:

It stopped being scary because it

started just being so fascinating.

821

:

Geri Fitz: Well, I was just

going to say, what I keep hearing

822

:

again and again and again is your

curiosity about what's going on.

823

:

Help me let me understand this and

824

:

Susan: Absolutely.

825

:

Geri Fitz: And that there's

something sort of transcendent of

826

:

culture and that that also Yeah.

827

:

Actually helps you hook into culture,

which is just that curiosity

828

:

and that people perspective, that

people orientation, you know?

829

:

Yeah.

830

:

What's it really like?

831

:

Susan: Well, and you know, I can't

avoid the fact that I'm an American.

832

:

Mm-hmm.

833

:

I, I would love to, I, I think of myself

as a citizen of the world, but that's

834

:

a citizen of the world with a whole

bunch of American baggage that comes.

835

:

So what I try to do before, or I did

before I would go to studies is I would

836

:

just immerse myself for as long as I had.

837

:

I would read history,

I would read fiction.

838

:

I would read, look at what was

going on in the current events.

839

:

I would look at the economy, I would

look at the whole picture and get

840

:

as much information as I possibly

could to try to understand based

841

:

on facts, scientific method.

842

:

But then when I went there, of

course, it's like that was all

843

:

really important background.

844

:

Geri Fitz: Mm.

845

:

Susan: But it wasn't enough because

what you have to do then is you

846

:

have to listen with your heart.

847

:

Mm.

848

:

You know, really deeply

listen with your heart.

849

:

And,

850

:

I have blinders like everybody does.

851

:

But I feel it's really important to kind

of expose those and to interrogate them.

852

:

And it's also out of those blinders

often that the big whoas come.

853

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

854

:

Susan: You know?

855

:

Yeah.

856

:

I have two examples I think

are really kind of cool.

857

:

One is a study we were doing in

Korea of a another HP printer.

858

:

And it was an installation, it

was an out of box experience.

859

:

And we're setting it up

in the usability lab.

860

:

I didn't just do usability obviously,

but this was what we were doing there.

861

:

And they said, well, do you

want us to, do you want 'em to

862

:

be able to do it on the floor

863

:

floor?

864

:

Tell me about that?

865

:

Where do people normally set

up their printers in Korea?

866

:

On the floor?

867

:

Okay, then let's make that possible.

868

:

Well, it turns out that the whole

design of the printer is for putting

869

:

it on a desk where all of the, all

the connections and things like

870

:

that are down at the bottom level.

871

:

So if you're trying to do it on the

floor, you're kind of upside down.

872

:

They had to re-engineer

the printer for Korea.

873

:

Geri Fitz: Mm.

874

:

Susan: Which was not easy.

875

:

Yeah.

876

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

877

:

Susan: And, and another one we were doing,

we did a really fascinating study where

878

:

we were looking at how people use cell

phones in the townships in South Africa.

879

:

And we went and visited, I don't know,

25 people and spent hours with them

880

:

trying to understand the premise.

881

:

This was for Microsoft and they

had the image that the people.

882

:

In, so, okay, sorry, let me step back.

883

:

The classic migration pattern, which

is the young people leave the village

884

:

to go to the city to make money, to

send back to the village Classic.

885

:

That happens everywhere, right?

886

:

And that was what's happening there.

887

:

So the families are in the Eastern

cape and the children are in, or adult

888

:

children are in Cape Town, which is

on the other side of the country.

889

:

We also had, they had an idea

that the people in the bush,

890

:

as they call it, were unbanked.

891

:

Well, they weren't unbanked.

892

:

They had bank accounts, but they'd have

to walk 20 miles to get to the bank.

893

:

And in the past, what people had

had to do was put the money into

894

:

an envelope and give it to a

mini bus driver who was driving.

895

:

And they were always getting robbed.

896

:

And sometimes the mini bus driver

wouldn't necessarily deliver it.

897

:

So it was a very chancey situation.

898

:

Um, so we were trying to figure

out, and, and they had an idea that

899

:

there might be some way that cell

phones could participate in this.

900

:

And in fact, about a year later,

M-Pesa came out in Kenya, which

901

:

is, you know, widely successful and

is kind of what they wanted to do.

902

:

But anyway, so we went to all these

people in Khayelitsha and then we

903

:

followed the families of three of them.

904

:

So we had all their

background information.

905

:

Then we went out to the Eastern Cape

and in the first village, we did our

906

:

walkabout and, all the stuff one does

when one does a visit to a rural village.

907

:

I mean, obviously you have to talk to the

headman first and all this kind of stuff.

908

:

We're over talking to this guy

who runs this little tiny store,

909

:

like two shelves and mm-hmm.

910

:

And, somebody came in for eggs

and he said, okay, 10 minutes.

911

:

What?

912

:

So however many minutes it was,

they paid him in cell phone minutes.

913

:

Oh.

914

:

So their kids transferred money

to them in cell phone minutes so

915

:

they could use that as currency.

916

:

It changes the whole

concept of what currency is.

917

:

Yeah.

918

:

It was so interesting.

919

:

And it was like, never

ever, ever saw that coming.

920

:

Geri Fitz: No.

921

:

Susan: You know.

922

:

Geri Fitz: No.

923

:

You're very self-reflective in the

whole practice, in the way you've talked

924

:

about being aware of the potential

blinders and also, again, that curiosity

925

:

that enables you to be surprised.

926

:

Yeah.

927

:

Because what you said, you don't

know, you've got the blinders until

928

:

Susan: Right.

929

:

Geri Fitz: They're exposed until, yes.

930

:

It's just the way stuff is.

931

:

Susan: Right.

932

:

Exactly.

933

:

Yeah.

934

:

And then you hit them and

935

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

936

:

Susan: And when you hit them, it can feel

like you're a failure in that moment.

937

:

And if you let that take over

your mindset at that point mm-hmm.

938

:

Then you miss the surprises.

939

:

And I've now learned that every

time I do a study, regardless of

940

:

where the first couple of people,

I'm gonna feel really stupid.

941

:

And that's okay.

942

:

And that's okay.

943

:

You know, learning to sit with

discomfort, I think is a really big deal.

944

:

And then when you're uncomfortable

listening deeply with your heart,

945

:

you know, really, really focusing

on understanding as much as you can.

946

:

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

947

:

Susan: Which is , they

compete with each other.

948

:

You know, that's a struggle.

949

:

That's always a struggle.

950

:

Geri Fitz: Can you say more about that?

951

:

Susan: Well,

952

:

so in the beginning of, of

953

:

the township study, for instance,

we were trying to understand what

954

:

they did with money in general.

955

:

And.

956

:

I have a client with me.

957

:

I'm trying to create an experience

that's a good experience for her.

958

:

We are also working with a local vendor.

959

:

Of course, we never, ever

would do that on our own.

960

:

We worked with the local vendor.

961

:

They consulted on the screener

and they did the recruitment,

962

:

and then they went with us.

963

:

Mm.

964

:

And had a facilitator, and two

translators so that they could switch

965

:

off because we tried to, as much

as possible, use local language.

966

:

Not always possible, but Mm.

967

:

As much as possible.

968

:

And it was so hard in the beginning

to just relax enough and allow myself

969

:

to feel the discomfort and not just

react by going, ah, you know, just.

970

:

Use it as information.

971

:

Oh, this is, this is

important information here.

972

:

Yeah.

973

:

You're learning stuff that you

wouldn't be learning otherwise.

974

:

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

975

:

Susan: Um, and that's

why you're uncomfortable.

976

:

Yeah.

977

:

It's that discrepancy.

978

:

Geri Fitz: How would you talk to

someone about listening with your heart?

979

:

Because that sounds so key for lots

of things, not just doing field work.

980

:

And that's where I'm going to break it off

for today, and we'll pick up from here in

981

:

the next episode, which will be part two.

982

:

And don't you just love the way Susan

talks about listening, not just as

983

:

listening, but listening with heart.

984

:

And so we talk about that more in

part two, and also talk about her rich

985

:

experiences with mentorship as well

as some of her personal challenges

986

:

and struggles outside of work.

987

:

And again, like there's just

so much in the next episode.

988

:

So I really hope you are looking

forward to it as much as I'm looking

989

:

forward to getting it out there as well.

990

:

You can find the summary notes, a

transcript and related links for this

991

:

podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.

992

:

You can also subscribe to Changing

Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify.

993

:

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

994

:

we can do academia differently.

995

:

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

996

:

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

997

:

podcast with your colleagues.

998

:

Together we can make change happen.

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About the Podcast

Changing Academic Life
What can we do, individually and collectively, to change academic life to be more sustainable, collaborative and effective? This podcast series offers long-form conversations with academics and thought leaders who share stories and insights, as well as bite-size musings on specific topics drawing on literature and personal experience.
For more information go to https://changingacademiclife.com
Also see https://geraldinefitzpatrick.com to leave a comment.
NOTE: this is an interim site and missing transcripts for the older podcasts. Please contact me to request specific transcripts in the meanwhile.

About your host

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Geraldine Fitzpatrick

Geraldine Fitzpatrick (Geri Fitz), is an awarded Professor i.R. at TU Wien, with degrees in Informatics, and in Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology, after a prior career as a nurse/midwife. She has International experience working in academic, research, industry and clinical settings. She is a sought-after facilitator, speaker, trainer and coach who cares about creating environments in which people can thrive, enabling individual growth, and creating collegial collaborative cultures. She works with academics and professionals at all levels, from senior academic leaders, to mid and early career researchers, to PhD students. She is also a mentor for academics and has been/is on various Faculty evaluation panels and various International Advisory Boards. An example of a course is the Academic Leadership Development Course for Informatics Europe, run in conjunction with Austen Rainer, Queens Uni Belfast. She also offers bespoke courses.