On the art, heart and science of 1-1 meetings (CAL131, S7E4)

Geri Fitz: 00:00:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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I want to talk about meetings some more,

and I know meetings can sound like a

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pretty uninspiring topic, but think about

how much time we spend in meetings and

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I really appreciated the conversation

with Steven Rogelberg that was the

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last podcast episode that went out.

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He shared amazing insights about

how to make our meetings better

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when we are doing sort of larger

team meetings or faculty meetings.

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And a large number of our other

meetings as academics, as researchers

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are one-on-one meetings, aren't they?

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And they, they could be meetings with our

PhD students or our postdocs or research

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assistants, and various other people

that we may be in some perhaps managerial

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and or mentoring type relationship with.

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And have you ever thought very

intentionally about those meetings and

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what they're for and how you run them?

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Steven Rogelberg is also an expert on

one-to-one meetings, and he published

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a book in 2024 that I also wanted to

discuss with him but we ran out of time.

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And it's called Glad We Met the Art

and Science of One-to-One meetings.

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So I thought I would draw on his

book and just provide some general

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reflections on our one-to-one meetings.

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I loved his description of one-on-ones.

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Now he's talking about one-on-ones in

a very general sense, and a lot of

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his research on one-on-one meetings

has been conducted more in business

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context rather than university context.

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But nonetheless, I think there's

a lot of relevance and that we can

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learn from what he talks about.

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And he talks about one-on-one

meetings as being practical,

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personal, and developmental.

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And their role is to discuss topics

such as wellbeing, motivation,

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productivity, roadblocks,

priorities, role and team alignment,

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development and career planning.

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And his research also points out

or highlights that when we do

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one-on-ones well, they have the

potential to dramatically alter the

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work lives and career progression of

the people that we are working with.

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And I'm interested in his description

of one-on-one meetings because in

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the German speaking German language

context, the language around supervisor

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is a German word called Betreuer.

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Appropriately adjusted

for gender, of course.

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And what I like about that term,

Betreuer, is it draws attention

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to elements of care and I like to

unpack that care in terms of four Ps.

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Care for the process, care for

progress, care for the product,

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and care for the person.

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And we can see how, in terms of the

more practical aspects that Steven

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talks about, process, progress, and

product are very much part of that

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practical getting stuff done bucket.

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You know so we're usually pretty

good as supervisors, as advisors,

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as line managers, as mentors on.

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Processes of doing research, and that

could be out understanding methods

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and teaching people about that, or

promoting research integrity and so on.

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We also, I think, also have a very good

idea of progress, what could be expected

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progression over the course of a PhD.

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And I know that different countries

have different timelines, timeline

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expectations, and this is where , at

least in my experience, many universities

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have got better in providing templated

support for things like progress

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reports or identifying milestones , and

having sort of some regular check-ins.

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And of course, the practical care for the

product is an obvious thing, especially

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for a PhD supervision or advising because

we're ultimately wanting to support

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the student in producing their thesis.

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But what about the person, the care

for the person, that picks up on

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Steven's personal and development

and career planning aspects.

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I don't know about you, but I've

never really been taught about how

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to do that care for the person.

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And it often comes down to

what are the individual skills

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that, that someone might bring.

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But I think we could do

better with this as well.

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And one of the things that Steven talks

about in his book around, you know,

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what's needed for, how do we go about

helping to meet personal needs of people?

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And it's things like, how do we

listen well and respond with empathy?

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How do we communicate really

authentically and transparently?

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How do we engage and involve

the people that we're working

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with in those conversations?

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How kind and supportive are we?

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And how much do we show up ourselves

in, in demonstrating appropriate

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sort of vulnerability and, and just

being what it means to be human?

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Because we're all human.

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And one of the things I think about

the sort of be kind and supportive is

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often there's a connotation of it's

all a little bit namby pamby and we

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avoid the hard conversations 'cause

that wouldn't be kind and supportive.

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But I think that's anything but the case.

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I think being kind and supportive is being

brave enough to have the more difficult

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conversations that we might need to have

or to give difficult feedback to someone.

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But it's more the mindset

that we come with in terms of

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how we show up and the care.

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Again, that sort of coming back to

that notion of care, the care with

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which we engage in those conversations

and deliver difficult feedback.

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Part of this care as well, I think is in

care for the person, is really taking

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some time to think about and get to

know who this person is in front of us.

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Not trying to make them into mini mes.

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Or to make them conform to some

stereotype of what might be the stellar

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researcher, but rather, who are they?

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What do they care about?

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What are their values and strengths?

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How are, how do they prefer to work?

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What are their self-sabotage

strategies and so on?

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What are their own

ambitions for their career?

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And I think that's one of the key

skills, especially in the early

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stages of a PhD, is having a mindset

that is really open and curious and

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wanting to get to know the person.

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And as the supervisor, advisor, manager,

mentor we can also play a really important

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role in helping out people get to know

their own values and strengths, et cetera,

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by the ways in which we observe and notice

and give feedback, the ways in which we

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reflect back to them what we see them

doing well at what we value about them.

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So we can play such an important

role in helping people develop a

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sense of their own identity and

develop a sense of self-esteem.

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And that doesn't mean that it's avoiding,

uh, the fact that, uh, PhD process

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can be challenging and difficult, or

that there can be ups and downs, but

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that you recognize the person in the

middle of it going through all this.

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On the other side of this, he also talks

about what the person, the other person,

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coming to the meeting can contribute.

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What their role is.

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And he talks about things like, knowing

what you need to come out of that meeting.

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Being curious, building rapport, actively

engaging, communicating well, being

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part of problem solving, being prepared

to ask for help in a constructive way

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and ask for feedback and receiving

feedback well, and expressing gratitude.

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In fact, I think that list can

go for both people, both parties.

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It's not just for the student.

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And it is interesting that coincidentally

a recent newsletter from Emmanuel

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Tsekleves who has this wonderful

newsletter called PhD to Prof and,

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and his newsletter number 116.

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I'll put a link to this webpage for you.

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He talks also about how students

can contribute to maximizing

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the value from their meetings.

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And his list of guidelines and suggested

points are to come to meetings with

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specific questions and proposed solutions,

to send meeting agendas 24 hours in

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advance, like just even a brief email,

to provide some regular progress updates

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between meetings, if that's been agreed.

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Being prepared to ask for feedback

on specific comments, not just

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general request for feedback, like

how am I doing, uh, ways in which

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the student can take initiative.

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And also acknowledging the

advisor's feedback and reporting

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back on implementation.

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So you can see a whole mirroring of

what Emmanuel has talked about there

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and what Steven talks about in his book.

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So apart from the more practical

preparation for meetings, like

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setting up an agenda or thinking about

specific questions or focus to come

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with, I think there's also some really

important prep that we often don't

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think about, and that's how we prep

ourselves to show up in the meeting

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to be fully attentive and present.

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And for me, sometimes that would play

out, especially if I was really busy

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or doing back to back meetings, which

isn't advisable of course, but just

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taking a couple of minutes, couple

of seconds just to refocus, and that

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might mean just taking a couple of

deep breaths, just checking in with my

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body for any tension and making sure

that I'm not distracted by other things

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going on, so my notifications turned

off and so on, and enabling me just

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to sit and literally fully face the

person that I'm trying to meet with.

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And I think that's something that's really

important in terms of how we role model

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as well, what it means to support someone

and what it means to care for the person,

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what it means to respect the person.

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That we put in the effort to show up well.

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Another part of respect that Steven

talks about quite a lot is the importance

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of just ending meetings on time.

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And this is something that I could've been

a lot better at, which was my timekeeping.

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'cause I'd often overrun a

meeting, which would mean the next

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meeting would not start on time.

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And I see now how that can

actually be really disrespectful.

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And so putting in the effort to really

think about how to better manage time

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and how to manage your own energy

so that you build in a little bit

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of space between meetings to do that

reconnecting, refocusing, being able to

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be fully present for the next meeting.

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Another set of skills that I think

is really important to develop.

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And again, they're not skills

that I've often heard talked about

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because often the emphasis on any

training or any support structures

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are around the, the more practical

process product progress elements.

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But the skills of when we're

in the meeting, what does

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good listening look like

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and how do we ask good questions?

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One of the challenges I think especially

for supervisors is we want to be helpful

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and we're often also very busy and we can

jump into advice mode much too quickly.

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And sometimes that can often mean

giving advice to the wrong problem

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because we haven't spent enough

time really trying to listen deeply.

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Because we know that often what people

will come with isn't the real problem.

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And we need to probe a little

bit more with some good open

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questions to get to that.

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. Towards this, I will put some links

to some previous episodes, with

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Michael Bungay Stanier about asking

good questions and, and talking about

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the advice monster and also with

Oscar Trimboli about how to listen

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well and the importance of listening.

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One of the big ahha moments in

reading Steven's book as well was

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about the cadence of meetings,

how often we have meetings.

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And I know that many of our

institutions will have guidelines

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about requiring meetings, at least,

whether it be once a month or once a

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fortnight or whatever, or once a week.

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Where I worked, we didn't have those fixed

guidelines and I always thought that,

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you know, we would start off with more

regular meetings, and then as a student

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got some momentum or the researcher

got some momentum, it was enough for

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me to have more irregular meetings and

to rely on having an open door policy.

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But Steven's research clearly

points to the value of having a

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fixed meeting time at a regular

interval that's in the calendar.

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His research actually supports a

weekly cadence, but obviously you can

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interpret that specific to your context.

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And some of the arguments around this

are to do with bias, for example.

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If we have more irregular meetings

or ad hoc meetings, we have a bias to

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meet more often with people we like.

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There can also be an issue

with people disappearing.

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You know, one of the comments

or questions I get asked often at

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workshops we run on supervision are

about how to keep people progressing

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or what happens when they don't

show up or they're not progressing.

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And I think having a fixed

commitment to a regular meeting

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can be a really good first step.

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And making it okay to come and

say, I'm struggling at the moment.

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And that goes to some of those

personal and interpersonal skills

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about how we show up and how we listen

and how we support, and how we role

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model that it's okay to struggle.

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And just having the fixed meeting

means if we discuss all of the range

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of things that we can talk about that

aren't just the practical, but can

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also pick up on the personal, the

developmental, the career planning.

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If the person doesn't particularly have

anything practical to discuss right

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now, that can be a great time to say,

let's pick up on some of the discussions

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about your development plans or your,

you know, career thinking and how we can

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help set you up to the, any next steps.

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His advice also is that we

don't have to necessarily

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schedule meetings to be an hour.

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We may have a default time, whatever it

might be, in the calendar, whether it's

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50 minutes or half an hour or 40 minutes,

but we can also just, shorten the meeting

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to whatever we need to discuss that day.

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But he suggests strongly, and again

his research is fully supportive of

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this, not canceling meetings, but

at least still connecting in some

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way so that it becomes just a regular

habit, it's about relationship

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building and care for the person . It

isn't just the practical aspects.

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He also has some really sort of

very practical suggestions as

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well that's worth thinking about.

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You know, like thinking more

intentionally about where we hold

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meetings, the level of privacy, even

things like air quality, noise levels,

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what resources we have available.

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You know, if we're at a particular

part of a project where we are

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brainstorming problems and solutions.

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Maybe a coffee shop isn't the

best place, but maybe an office

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that has a whiteboard that we can

map things out or mind map ideas.

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Or if someone wants to come and

talk about things that are more

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personal, again, like the coffee

shop might not be the best idea.

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His research also points to the

fact that if we need to be in more

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creative mode, that actually walking

meetings can be very effective for

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creativity and for generating more

ideas and more creative ideas.

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His research suggests that, if we

are dealing with more substantive

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or deeper issues that face-to-face is

preferable to virtual, being online.

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So in terms of the more

developmental career oriented

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discussions in our meetings.

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Coincidentally as well.

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There's a great blog post from the

Auditorium blog, which is hosted

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by Kay Guccione at University of

Glasgow, and this is an article

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with a, with a link to a toolkit.

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On how to foster great career

conversations, and it's written by Dr.

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Rachel Chin and Dr.

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Rachel Harrys.

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And again, I'll put a link to this because

it is just a great set of resources there

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in this toolkit that very practically

will support supervisors in walking

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through the sorts of conversations

You may have had less training in.

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Like how to help people identify

what their values are, what their

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strengths are, what a good career

path might look like for them, what

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are their non-negotiables and so on.

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And then how might they go about

doing some of the experiments or

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explorations around future career ideas.

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So I'll put a link to that webpage

and their toolkit because I think

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it's a really great support.

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And in finishing, I also want to

pick up on a point that Steven

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said about our faculty meetings and

other meetings, which is let's make

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sure as part of being intentional

to have a meeting about meetings.

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Let's talk more about

how we work together.

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So that we can explicitly set up the

shared expectations and commitments

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,where you can explain why you want

to do fixed meetings and what are

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the options for using that time.

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What are the sort of things that

are okay to talk about or not?

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What are you expecting from the person in

terms of preparation as well as in follow

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up and accountability and reporting back.

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And it can also be a time just to check

in about how's it been working so far?

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What's working well,

what's not working so well?

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What might we want to do

differently moving forward?

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Especially recognizing, say, for a PhD,

that as people progress through the

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PhD, it creates different needs and

requirements, doesn't it, for support.

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So Steven's book is called Glad We Met the

Art and Science of One-to-One Meetings.

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And I'd actually like to think about

it more as the art, heart and science

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of meetings because there's so much

about the, you know, the critical

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role that we can play as supervisors,

mentors, managers, research leaders.

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In not just delivering on the work,

but helping people step into their

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own identity as researchers with

more confidence and awareness.

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Where we can help people develop into

really great researchers or the developed

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career paths that they care about.

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And it's such a privileged

position to be in.

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It's one of the main reasons.

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If I think about what's my why for being

a researcher academic, yes, there's stuff

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about the science and the research, but my

big why was much more about working with

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really clever people and the privilege

of helping create environments in which

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people can grow and develop and bring

their best selves to do their best work.

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So I hope this provided some random,

thinking points so that you can

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step into supervision, meetings,

management meetings more intentionally

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with the care for both the practical

and the personal and developmental.

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You can find the summary notes, a

transcript and related links for this

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podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.

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You can also subscribe to Changing

Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify

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. And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

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we can do academia differently.

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And you can contribute to this by rating

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: 00:23:49

Together we can make change happen.