Vikki Wright on career transitions, ADHD, and learning to manage yourself (CAL116, S6E10)

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Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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Whether you're considering a

teaching focused career path.

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Or looking to move on from academia.

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Or dealing with ADHD or with

perfectionism and procrastination.

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Or if you're trying to be a

better supervisor, Or you're just

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wanting to take more control of

your own life then I think you'll

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really love this conversation.

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Vikki Wright is the founding

director of PhD Life Coach.

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And offers professional coaching and

training to help PhD students and

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academics, reduce their overwhelm,

make progress and enjoy work and life.

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She also hosts the PhD life coach podcast.

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Up until 2022 though.

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Vikki was a full professor of higher

education at the University of Birmingham

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in the UK with a research background

in sport and exercise sciences.

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In this engaging conversation, Vikki

shares her unique career journey where she

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started off in a research focused track.

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Then shifted to more of a teaching

focus . And then later on, on the

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basis of a group coaching experience,

. She retrained as a life coach.

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A recurring theme in all that Vikki shares

is about the importance of self-awareness

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and following your strengths.

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We see this as she shares anecdotes

from the pandemic and her own

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personal struggles with ADHD.

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And she highlights the importance of

self-compassion, curiosity and really

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having balanced, realistic ambitions.

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These are some key mindset aspects of

learning how to manage yourself, or she

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talks about in some programs that she

offers how to be your own best boss.

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Towards the end of the conversation Vikki

also shares with us a very practical

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tool of role-based time blocking

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And if you wanted to see more of

what she offers, I can point you

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to her website which is www dot

thePhDlifecoach, all one word, dot com.

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Where you can find links to her podcast

and to her be your own best boss course.

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She also runs an online

community for PhD students and

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academics call the Membership.

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And this is really timely because

applications for the next membership

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opens end of January, 2025.

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You can sign up on that

website page for the waitlist.

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So hope you enjoy this conversation

with Vikki Wright I'm really

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excited to have this conversation with

you, Vikki, because I think there's

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going to be so much in it for people.

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And one of the reasons why it'll be

really interesting to talk to you is that

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you have an interesting career journey.

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Can you tell us a little

bit of your background?

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Vikki: Yes, of course.

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Thank you so much for

having me here today.

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So I.

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Went to university at

18, as most people do.

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And I never left that university

until I was a full professor

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25 years later, I think it was.

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Um, so I went through the same

institution from beginning to end.

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Did my undergraduate, went straight

into a PhD, got offered a postdoc

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and kind of went through from there.

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And the first big transition was when I

realized after about 10 years postdoc, I

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guess, that I didn't really love research

anymore, which is a bit of a challenge

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at a research intensive, big university.

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And I thought it might be the

end of my academic career.

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And, um, I chatted with some

wonderful mentors who said, no,

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we need people who love teaching.

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We need people who want to do

leadership on that side of things.

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And thankfully at that stage, my

university had a track all the way through

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to full professor on teaching focused.

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Geri: Do you want to say what your

research area was that you ended

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up deciding you didn't really like?

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Vikki: Yeah, no, absolutely.

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So I did a sport science degree,

sport and exercise sciences.

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My PhD was looking at how stress

affects immune function and how

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exercise affects immune function.

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And I loved it.

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Don't get me wrong.

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It's a fascinating topic area.

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Yeah.

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And I really loved supporting my PhD

students and all that side of it.

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But I had realized that in order

to answer the questions I wanted

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to answer, I was going to have

to get down and immunology of it.

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Um, I didn't want to be doing more

cross sectional studies, looking at

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how this measure of stress measures to

some basic measure of immune function.

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And I actually went back and did a

postgraduate qualification in immunology

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and infection after my PhD in a kind

of vague attempt to like retrain

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myself into that hardcore immunology.

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And I just didn't love the

actual doing of that research.

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I didn't enjoy being in a laboratory,

particularly I didn't enjoy the kind

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of careful methodicalness of it and

the making bits of kit work that

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didn't work and all that sort of stuff.

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Geri: But you thought you would,

obviously, to actually choose to

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do another degree, another sort

of, um, study program in that.

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Vikki: Did I think I would love it?

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I don't know that I thought about that.

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I think I thought I needed it.

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I think I thought that in order to

answer the questions that I wanted

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to, it was one of those decisions

that was driven more by sort of My

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goals than by a kind of understanding

of myself at that stage I think

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I think if I'd stopped and thought about

what gave me energy and what I yeah Good

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at naturally and what I like spending time

doing I would have realized So careful and

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methodical is probably not it but Yeah,

I don't recall thinking about that much.

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It was more, right, if I'm going to

do this, I need to do it properly.

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I need to know how to do this.

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And I love learning.

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So doing the course was great.

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Um, but I was getting to a stage

where I was procrastinating writing

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grants, not because I don't like, I

actually really like writing grants.

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I'm a bit of a weirdo.

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Um, I just didn't want to think about

the fact that I would If I got that

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grant, then I would definitely be

doing this research in four years time.

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And it was like, that's not a good sign.

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That's not a good sign.

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Because the worry is you might say,

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Geri: Writing a grant and submitting

it, praying that it doesn't get funded.

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Vikki: I like writing about it.

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I just don't want to do it.

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Geri: That is a good warning sign.

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Vikki: That was a good warning sign

and thankfully that was one I actually

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listened to and I got some good advice

from people that there would be careers

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in academia that didn't have to involve

being a like superstar researcher.

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Geri: Which is amazing isn't it because

there aren't many universities yet I

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don't think that really value a teaching

path and provide people career prospects.

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Vikki: Yeah.

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And this was 10 years ago, right?

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So this is, this is not even now.

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This was, so this is the

University of Birmingham in the UK.

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And it was one of the things that I

think they do really, really well.

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They've had a path to professor for

quite a long time at that stage.

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And then about nine years ago, they

introduced a Reader qualification.

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So at the time there was, it

was lecturer, senior lecturer,

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reader, then full professor.

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And they didn't used to have the

reader promotion on teaching focus.

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You had to go straight from

senior lecturer to professor.

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So it was a route, but it was a big jump.

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And just about the time that I was

deciding that I wanted to go that

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way, they introduced that interim, um,

promotion, which was super useful as a

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kind of structured career goal and things.

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And yeah, they were brilliant.

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So it took into account, um, not

only your own teaching practice,

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but contributions to pedagogic

literature in some places, um, teaching

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leadership within your institution.

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So the sort of more organizational

management side of it.

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And also then kind of leadership

at a national and international

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level so we're sharing good practice

within your discipline, or, you

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know, across more widely than that.

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So that was what I ended up

doing for, for the rest of

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that academic bit of my career.

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As I say, made full professor during

the pandemic, which was, yeah, that

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was a vibe, get finding that out

when I was on my own in a house.

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Geri: So the champagne

celebration on your own.

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Vikki: My friend, so one of my best

friends, Helen, um, cause this was

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right, this was like March 2020.

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Um, one of my best friends, Helen came

round and put a half miniature size

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bottle of champagne on my front door,

retreated to the end of my drive.

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Where she had one of those party poppers

and sort of yelled, congratulations

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to them, did a party popper.

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And I sort of waved and took my, my mini

bottle of champagne and retreated in door.

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Geri: But that's still lovely, isn't it?

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That, that someone actually cared and that

small gesture that you still like just

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looking at your face and, it was special.

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Vikki: Oh, 100%.

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I've still got the mini bottle upstairs.

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Um, so yeah, and I was doing that.

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And then.

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Then it was the pandemic and I was

head of education for my department.

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So I was overseeing all the postgraduate

programs, all the undergraduate

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programs, um, which as you can

imagine, we had, we had clinical

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programs and we have a physiotherapy,

um, unit in our, in our department.

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And so that was a whole thing, keeping

that running through the isolations

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and everything, as you can imagine.

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Um, and then we kind of came out the other

side of that to some extent, at least.

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back to sort of normal.

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And I was so like, okay, what's next?

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Because that was like, head

down emergency measures, right?

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There was no time to think about

career planning at that stage.

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It was just, let's get the

department through this.

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And it was like, okay, I'm full professor.

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That was my goal.

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That's what I've been working

towards all this time.

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Um, what now?

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And I was kind of on a trajectory

to do the senior education role.

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So I probably would have gone for like

director of education for my college and

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then look at like pro vice chancellor

for education or something like that.

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That was kind of, I think

what people expected of me.

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I think I was for good and bad.

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I was seen as quite ambitious

and Yeah, and then I was like,

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I don't want to do those things.

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These jobs don't actually appeal anymore.

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Um, and at the same time, I'd been

having coaching of my own in a group

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setting and finding it absolutely

transformational and beginning

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to think, Oh my goodness, the PhD

students and other academics need this.

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And so I trained as a coach alongside

my job and Not really with the

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intention of doing it full time.

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Um, but because I thought it would

be really useful and interesting

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that I could use it within my work.

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And yeah, the more I thought about

the coaching, the more I wanted

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to spend all my time on that.

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And.

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The pragmatic thing to do would probably

have been to just tootle around my

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academic job, keep it ticking over,

take home my professorial pay, not

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get too stressed out about anything

and do some coaching on the side.

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I'm not very good at that.

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I'm not very good at not kind

of driving towards something.

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So yeah, my personal life collided with

my real life and I met a wonderful man who

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said that he could make sure I didn't die

while I was setting up my own business.

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Um, he would feed me and all that.

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And so it sort of, opportunity conspired

to make it possible for me to just

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go all in pretty much immediately,

which is what I did two years ago.

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Geri: Brilliant.

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So I want to come to that in a tick,

but I'm really curious about the way you

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talked about that pandemic period and

your role in the education and all of the

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extreme pivots that everyone had to make.

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I think that was sort of the area in

universities that was most under pressure.

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How did you come out of that?

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Was it sort of like burned out and

flat or how did you manage looking

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after yourself during that time?

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Vikki: That, yes.

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How did I manage looking after myself?

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Well, to contextualize,

I was living on my own.

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So I went nearly three months

without touching another human being

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at the beginning of the pandemic.

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Um, while at the same time trying

to keep all this stuff afloat.

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And it was really hard.

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And this is what's led on, I

think, to a lot of the coaching

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stuff that I do now, because I

was trying to balance continuing.

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to ensure our students had access to

the courses that they had signed up for

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and that they'd expected and that they'd

paid for and all of that stuff with

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also all these really conflicting needs

that the staff had in terms of what was

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realistic to ask them to deliver under

the circumstances they were experiencing,

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you know, at home with their kids and

often sick family members and getting

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sick themselves and whatever, and Yeah,

I'm not gonna lie, that was really hard.

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That was a really difficult balance.

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And I spent an awful lot of

that time beating myself up.

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A lot, I think it's fair to say.

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Because I just felt like I

was letting everyone down.

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Um, you know, the students

wanted more than we could offer.

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The staff were thinking that I was asking

for more than was reasonable from them.

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Because of all of that, I was

struggling to stay ahead of myself.

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I have tendencies towards ADHD.

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I'm not diagnosed, but

I kind of head that way.

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Um, you know, I was regularly asking

people for things with not very much

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notice because, partly because the

university was, like all universities

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was making up as it went along, I

was getting stuff at last minute.

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I was then not on top of things as

much as I would want to be and then

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asking up people for things in a hurry

and feeling terribly bad about it.

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I remember being in one meeting

and I can't remember what it was

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that I said that they needed to do.

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And A member of staff, who can be a

little bit grumpy, but he's a lovely,

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lovely fella, um, just said it would

have been nice to have been consulted

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on this before the decision was made.

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I was just literally like

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Geri: Just to interject

because you can't see.

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At this point.

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Vikki does a very animated

mime of how she responded.

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Vikki: Ha ha ha ha ha!

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Stittity!

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So that was sort of like That was

a real, like, he just sat there,

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and he was absolutely shocked!

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He was just like, I'm doing my best, okay?

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So,

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Geri: So just a total, like, that was

the straw that broke, that broke you.

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Vikki: It really was.

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And so I think I, I don't know, I

think I have a, I was going to say

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inherent laziness, that is not true,

and I've got to stop speaking like that.

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Like that.

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I have I can't drive

myself into the ground.

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My brain gets distracted and I

enjoy doing too many other things.

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And so I think what saved me was

that I have a lot of hobbies and

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a lot of things I'm interested in.

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And so whilst work was very much heading

towards burnout, I had enough protectives,

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even when I was locked away like that.

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Mm-hmm.

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My various clubs and things had

online things going on and stuff.

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I had enough other protective

things that kept me on the right

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side of Broken . Yeah, yeah.

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But I was definitely very, very exhausted

afterwards and my university were

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wonderful once I kind of came to the

end of my tenure as head of education.

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They gave me a year where I

didn't have any major admin roles.

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So I was just teaching my staff and

doing bits and pieces and recovering.

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So they were wonderful.

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I repaid them by leaving.

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Geri: That's really wonderful that

the university, recognized and

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valued that and gave you that space.

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Yeah, because it is time to

recover and just decompress a bit.

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So I'm curious then, what was the trigger

for going into coaching for yourself?

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Vikki: Well, it actually came about

because of a random conversation

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with a gorgeous friend of mine.

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So a guy called Dr.

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Alex Conner, who worked in the

medical school at the time at the

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university, um, he very openly has ADHD.

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He does a lot of advocacy work

in ADHD and him and I were

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good buddies for a long time.

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And we were having coffee together

after the pandemic had sort of

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slightly settled back when we were

actually allowed to see each other.

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And yeah.

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I can't remember what we were talking

about, but um, he was just like,

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so anyway, when were you diagnosed?

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And I was like, hmm, diagnosed, what now?

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What are we doing?

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And he was mortified because he was

like, I never diagnosed, I never, it's

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one of my things, even if I suspect.

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He's like, I just had no

idea, you didn't know.

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Geri: And did you know

before he said that?

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Did you have an inkling

before he said that?

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Vikki: No, I just, No, I just thought

I was, Enthusiastic and useless.

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Kind of something that sits

in between those two things.

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Um, and I'm still not, I'm

mostly not, this is awful.

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I'm not diagnosed because I got,

um, got referred for diagnosis, um,

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and got put on a list, and then they

asked me to set up a consultation and

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: 00:18:51

I never got around to emailing them.

306

: 00:18:54

And so after a year I got discharged,

which in my mind should be a diagnosis.

307

: 00:19:02

There we are.

308

: 00:19:03

Anyway, I'm mostly on the thing at

the moment that actually an enormous

309

: 00:19:06

amount of self compassion and support

at home has meant that the symptoms

310

: 00:19:11

are not Impacting my life in any

terrible way at the moment, so I've

311

: 00:19:15

decided that at the moment I'm good.

312

: 00:19:17

But, but that was where it really

started, him saying that, and me

313

: 00:19:20

being like, oh my goodness, I wonder.

314

: 00:19:23

And then I started listening to

a podcast that I would recommend

315

: 00:19:26

to anybody who thinks they might

have ADHD, called I Have ADHD.

316

: 00:19:31

Um, By a coach in the U.

317

: 00:19:33

S.

318

: 00:19:33

called Kristen Carder.

319

: 00:19:35

Um, and it was just brilliant.

320

: 00:19:38

And I just, from the off, I just,

I like, consumed this podcast.

321

: 00:19:43

And she had a group coaching program

called Focused for adults with ADHD.

322

: 00:19:48

And After quite a bit of umming and

uhring, because it was, you know, it's not

323

: 00:19:52

super cheap, um, I decided I'd go for it.

324

: 00:19:56

And yeah, it was just transformational.

325

: 00:19:59

Sitting in these webinars, watching

her coach other people who were

326

: 00:20:05

saying things that were like my

brain out loud, was just amazing.

327

: 00:20:11

And, you know, obviously the

times I got coached, Incredible.

328

: 00:20:15

But just hearing other people experiencing

the same things, and it not having to

329

: 00:20:22

mean that They needed to fix themselves

or be better or find a new planner that

330

: 00:20:29

would make it all okay or whatever.

331

: 00:20:32

Geri: Which is often the recommendation.

332

: 00:20:34

Vikki: I mean, seriously, yeah, I, that's,

you know, this will be the year I'll stick

333

: 00:20:38

to this, this will be the year I do that

or whatever had always been the thing.

334

: 00:20:43

And yeah, that was the one that

just, and I'd had coaching before,

335

: 00:20:48

but it never, ever help because.

336

: 00:20:53

I would leave a session super

enthusiastic with a plan.

337

: 00:20:55

You know, we'd gone through the

models of GROW model and all of this.

338

: 00:20:59

I've gone through my options.

339

: 00:21:00

I've made a decision.

340

: 00:21:01

I knew why I was doing

it, blah, blah, blah.

341

: 00:21:03

I'd go off.

342

: 00:21:04

I'd come back the next time.

343

: 00:21:05

And they'd be like, so did

you do any of those things?

344

: 00:21:07

I'd be like, no, I didn't do any of them.

345

: 00:21:09

Why not?

346

: 00:21:09

And I'm like, I have no idea.

347

: 00:21:12

Um, and so they'd get cross with me.

348

: 00:21:14

I'd get embarrassed.

349

: 00:21:15

And.

350

: 00:21:17

Yeah.

351

: 00:21:17

So I'd never found coaching

useful before that.

352

: 00:21:20

And then suddenly I found this

environment where it was like,

353

: 00:21:22

Oh, this all just makes sense.

354

: 00:21:25

Just makes sense.

355

: 00:21:26

And that made so much difference.

356

: 00:21:29

That was the point where I decided

that I wanted to train and that form of

357

: 00:21:33

coaching and, and do that sort of work.

358

: 00:21:36

Geri: Make that difference

for other people.

359

: 00:21:38

Vikki: Yeah.

360

: 00:21:38

A hundred percent.

361

: 00:21:40

And not just people who've got

ADHD or other neurodivergences.

362

: 00:21:44

The stuff I was seeing.

363

: 00:21:46

It was so translatable to so

many people with academia.

364

: 00:21:51

There is so much, as you know, where

are the things that we're telling

365

: 00:21:57

ourselves are just making it so

much harder than it needs to be.

366

: 00:22:01

Um, and that's not to blame ourselves.

367

: 00:22:04

It's inherently a challenging system and

a, you know, a competitive environment and

368

: 00:22:08

all that stuff, but we can end up making

it so much harder than it needs to be.

369

: 00:22:15

That was what I learned really.

370

: 00:22:17

.

Geri: So the other coaching program, and you talked about you'd gone

371

: 00:22:23

through the GROW process and for

people who don't know, it stands

372

: 00:22:25

for Goal, Reality, the Options, and

then having the Will to change or

373

: 00:22:29

motivating Why you want to change.

374

: 00:22:31

And so you got to all of that and

you went away with your option, and

375

: 00:22:34

you just said you didn't come back.

376

: 00:22:36

What do you think was going

on there for you with that?

377

: 00:22:39

What was it about that

approach that didn't work?

378

: 00:22:43

Vikki: I want to be careful because

I want it, you know, different

379

: 00:22:46

coaches work for different people.

380

: 00:22:48

Right.

381

: 00:22:48

And I'm, this was just a one

that it didn't work for me.

382

: 00:22:52

And I think the reason it didn't work

for me was because the main things we

383

: 00:22:57

talked about is what we were going to do.

384

: 00:23:00

And I am, there's one thing I'm not

short of it's ideas, plans, ways to get

385

: 00:23:06

there, the exact steps I need to take.

386

: 00:23:09

And so I could say all the right

things there in the session.

387

: 00:23:15

I could even believe.

388

: 00:23:18

I've got a plan now in the session.

389

: 00:23:20

I could, you know, but I didn't understand

why I wouldn't then follow through.

390

: 00:23:28

And not only did I not understand

it, I judged myself hugely for it.

391

: 00:23:34

So for the fact that I'd come up with

these plans, they sounded so reasonable.

392

: 00:23:37

They sounded like I, and I genuinely

wanted to do them and I couldn't

393

: 00:23:41

understand why I didn't, and that

annoyed me because not understanding

394

: 00:23:44

things just frustrates me.

395

: 00:23:47

And.

396

: 00:23:48

I made it mean that I was

just useless and lazy and ill

397

: 00:23:53

disciplined and all that good stuff.

398

: 00:23:56

And for me, the issue was that

we weren't getting to why I

399

: 00:24:06

wasn't taking those actions

400

: 00:24:08

.

And I know that's not something that's inherent to particular style of coaching.

401

: 00:24:12

So, you know, then there may be other

people who work with these models

402

: 00:24:15

who would've got to that stuff.

403

: 00:24:17

But for me, this notion of.

404

: 00:24:22

Partly the why being to do with the

ADHD, but the why also being to do

405

: 00:24:26

with all the thoughts and emotions

that I was having about those actions

406

: 00:24:30

and us not really getting to that

meant that nothing really changed.

407

: 00:24:38

Whereas The Focused Coaching Program uses

a model called the Self Coaching Model

408

: 00:24:45

which originally came out of the Life

Coach School which Brooke Castillo, it

409

: 00:24:49

is just, she, she says it too, it's a

smushed up version of CBT for a coaching

410

: 00:24:53

environment essentially, but it really

looks at what thoughts and feelings you're

411

: 00:25:00

having and how that drives your actions.

412

: 00:25:03

And it was something, I don't know,

people had probably told me stuff like

413

: 00:25:07

that before, but it was something that I

was suddenly very able to go, Oh, right.

414

: 00:25:17

And for me, it was around things like the

reason why I was making unrealistic goals.

415

: 00:25:24

Because I truly believe my

thoughts were absolutely that

416

: 00:25:29

I should be able to do it all.

417

: 00:25:31

It was a massive problem

if I couldn't do it all.

418

: 00:25:34

Um, and so then, I kind of already

was feeling overwhelmed and when

419

: 00:25:40

I was feeling overwhelmed, I would

procrastinate and I couldn't work out

420

: 00:25:43

why I was procrastinating because nobody

had ever really talked to me about

421

: 00:25:48

procrastination being emotion avoidance.

422

: 00:25:50

Procrastination was always presented

as a kind of, well, you just need

423

: 00:25:53

to decide what you're doing and

then stick to it kind of thing.

424

: 00:25:56

Um, whereas, I was just getting into

such a sort of an overwhelm of wanting

425

: 00:26:03

to do all the things and feeling

like I had to do all the things and

426

: 00:26:06

most of them were of my own volition.

427

: 00:26:08

This isn't me being a kind of agreeing

to everybody else's stuff, this is

428

: 00:26:11

a me going I could do that and we

should do this too kind of thing.

429

: 00:26:15

Um, so it was all of my own creation.

430

: 00:26:18

And then procrastinating to avoid

those feelings of sort of overwhelm

431

: 00:26:24

and self judgment and whatnot.

432

: 00:26:27

Geri: And were these to do with,

sort of, actions to do with your

433

: 00:26:30

role as professor and education

strand that you're working on, or?

434

: 00:26:35

Vikki: I would, to paint the picture,

I would be somebody who, you know,

435

: 00:26:39

fully believed that I should be

able to be a senior leader at the

436

: 00:26:44

university doing all of that stuff.

437

: 00:26:47

well on time ahead of myself, consulting

everybody, doing all of those things.

438

: 00:26:51

And I should be a highly

effective teacher.

439

: 00:26:54

And I should be doing pedagogical

research, which by the way, I'm

440

: 00:26:57

not trained in, in any level.

441

: 00:26:59

You know, I taught myself on a sabbatical,

how to do qualitative research.

442

: 00:27:03

Um, I should be able to do all of

that whilst also Paddleboarding every

443

: 00:27:09

week, going to my circus class every

week, seeing my friends several times

444

: 00:27:13

a week, working on adventure races on

holidays, competing in her adventure

445

: 00:27:17

races on the weekends, definitely going

home to see my parents at least once

446

: 00:27:21

a month, dating regularly, um, art.

447

: 00:27:25

Oh, and writing the novel

that I has partway through.

448

: 00:27:28

And I truly believe that the reason

I couldn't fit that all in was

449

: 00:27:32

because I hadn't found the right.

450

: 00:27:34

time management strategy.

451

: 00:27:37

And part of me still does.

452

: 00:27:42

Geri: I'm exhausted

listening to that list.

453

: 00:27:44

Vikki: But that was genuinely, I

mean, if I showed you my photos from

454

: 00:27:47

2019 before the world shut down,

yeah, that that was literally, I was

455

: 00:27:54

doing all of those things regularly.

456

: 00:27:56

Geri: So, the shoulds though, you know,

how do you reflect on the shoulds now?

457

: 00:28:00

Because obviously you can hear the

shoulds yourself because, looking back.

458

: 00:28:06

Vikki: Yeah, I think this is where

I'm sometimes slightly different

459

: 00:28:11

from other people I speak to.

460

: 00:28:14

My shoulds were very self driven.

461

: 00:28:17

They were very, I believed,

you know, I grew up as a

462

: 00:28:22

somewhat gifted kid and whatnot.

463

: 00:28:24

Um, and so everything came quite easily.

464

: 00:28:28

I was best in my class

and did all of that stuff.

465

: 00:28:31

And so it was very much, you know,

I have that slightly naive belief

466

: 00:28:36

that if I put my mind to it, I

could be a professional most things.

467

: 00:28:39

Not a singer, definitely not a singer.

468

: 00:28:41

But beyond that, you know.

469

: 00:28:44

I feel like I should be

able to do those things.

470

: 00:28:46

And so for me it wasn't so much other

people, my expectations of myself have

471

: 00:28:52

always been inordinately higher than

anybody else's expectations of me.

472

: 00:28:57

So, so yeah, in my case very much

internal, I just should be able to

473

: 00:29:02

fit this in and life will be no fun if

it's not, if I don't fit them all in.

474

: 00:29:07

Whereas when I'm working with my

clients, I often hear a lot more, you

475

: 00:29:11

know, my supervisor thinks I should

be able to do all of this, or my boss

476

: 00:29:14

does, or my parents do, or whoever.

477

: 00:29:18

Geri: The blessing and the curse of

actually being talented and being able

478

: 00:29:23

to do those things, or being gifted.

479

: 00:29:26

Vikki: Well, one of the things I often

talk with my clients about now, that was

480

: 00:29:29

a real kind of transformational moment

for me was thinking about a sort of

481

: 00:29:35

analogy between all the foods you like.

482

: 00:29:39

And a meal, right?

483

: 00:29:41

Because I believed that if I couldn't

do all the things that I wanted to

484

: 00:29:46

do, that it would somehow be rubbish.

485

: 00:29:49

Except, when I was trying to do all the

things, and telling myself I should be

486

: 00:29:54

able to do all the things, I actually

spent an awful lot of time stressed

487

: 00:29:58

and running around and feeling behind

and chaotic and all of those things.

488

: 00:30:02

I had a lot of good times too,

don't get me wrong, but there was

489

: 00:30:06

a lot of judgment going on too.

490

: 00:30:08

And what we often talk about in sessions

now is how actually your life is a

491

: 00:30:13

bit more like a plate, it's a bit more

like a meal, and you can choose Things,

492

: 00:30:20

you know, I need this sort of stuff

in my work life and I need that, you

493

: 00:30:22

know, extra carbohydrate or whatever.

494

: 00:30:24

I need this sort of stuff in my fun

life, that's your protein, da da da.

495

: 00:30:27

And that actually what makes up a nicer

meal is where you've selected a bunch

496

: 00:30:33

of things that kind of add up to a nice

plate of food, rather than trying to

497

: 00:30:38

chuck in all your favorites at once.

498

: 00:30:41

And then you end up with you know,

gravy over ice cream or whatever.

499

: 00:30:45

Geri: Mm.

500

: 00:30:46

Yeah.

501

: 00:30:46

That's a lovely, it's a great analogy.

502

: 00:30:48

So, because one of the programs

that you offer that I want to talk

503

: 00:30:51

about is Be Your Own Best Boss.

504

: 00:30:53

And this is sort of like be your own.

505

: 00:30:58

Vikki: It's like as your boss, you

choose what you're putting on your plate,

506

: 00:31:04

essentially, whether that's your actual

eating plate or whether it's the plate

507

: 00:31:08

of what you're taking on at any one time.

508

: 00:31:10

And when I'm talking about being your

own best boss, I'm not talking about like

509

: 00:31:13

my role as an entrepreneur, where I am

now, my own boss, I'm talking about all

510

: 00:31:18

of us having this role inside ourselves

where we get to decide what things we

511

: 00:31:24

do and when we do them and what we're

prioritizing right now and how we're

512

: 00:31:28

organizing our week and all of these

things and how often the way that internal

513

: 00:31:35

boss acts to us is way worse than we

would ever take from a normal boss, right?

514

: 00:31:42

You know, when I look back, my boss

internally back then was telling me.

515

: 00:31:48

Had to do all these things.

516

: 00:31:50

Don't worry, it will be fun.

517

: 00:31:52

If you can't fit them all in,

it means you're a terrible

518

: 00:31:54

person, so just try harder.

519

: 00:31:56

Um,

520

: 00:31:57

Geri: This is your, this

is your boss in your head.

521

: 00:31:59

Vikki: That's my internal boss.

522

: 00:32:00

Yes, not your real boss.

523

: 00:32:02

That's to myself.

524

: 00:32:03

I was giving myself very

vague instructions as to

525

: 00:32:05

what success looked like.

526

: 00:32:07

Um, I was jamming in way too many things.

527

: 00:32:10

Then judging myself for not being able

to follow my to do list, which frankly

528

: 00:32:13

made no sense in the first place

because it had a thousand things on it.

529

: 00:32:16

You Um, and then would tell myself it

meant a whole load of things about me.

530

: 00:32:21

And often we focus on the

like implementer side of us.

531

: 00:32:26

How do I learn to follow my to

do list, to follow my diary, to

532

: 00:32:29

do the things I intend to do?

533

: 00:32:32

And what we often don't do is sort

of backtrack to, hang on a minute.

534

: 00:32:35

What about the bit of me that's making

the decisions, the boss version of me?

535

: 00:32:40

Are they acting in my best interests?

536

: 00:32:43

Are they planning things in a

way that feels doable and fun?

537

: 00:32:48

Are they saying to me the

things I need to hear?

538

: 00:32:52

Because it's not just

about planning, right?

539

: 00:32:53

It's also, you know, When I ask people

what things would you want your boss to

540

: 00:32:58

say to you, it's like I need to say that

they believed in me and that they think

541

: 00:33:03

that with support I could do this new

harder thing, but that we'll do it a bit

542

: 00:33:07

at a time, or that I don't have to do

it all at once or these sorts of things.

543

: 00:33:11

Now I'm not saying any of

those things to myself.

544

: 00:33:14

I do now, consciously.

545

: 00:33:17

But yeah, that's what I mean by this kind

of being a better boss to yourself, is

546

: 00:33:21

choosing what's on your plate, choosing

what you say to yourself, so that it's

547

: 00:33:26

then much easier to follow through.

548

: 00:33:30

Geri: That takes a lot of

self awareness, doesn't it?

549

: 00:33:33

That, your boss isn't always

giving you the best advice.

550

: 00:33:37

And I, I mean, I'm wondering, You said

something that has not got your best

551

: 00:33:41

interest and I often sort of think that

it does have your best interest, it's just

552

: 00:33:44

not very wise in how it implements it, or

like the way it's going to happen and it

553

: 00:33:49

falls down a bit in that side of things.

554

: 00:33:52

Vikki: Yeah, absolutely.

555

: 00:33:54

And often what it has is it sort of,

I think of it when, when you're kind

556

: 00:33:59

of internal bosses a little bit.

557

: 00:34:03

I think what often happens is that

when it's thinking about you in the

558

: 00:34:07

future, it's either a bit hopeless.

559

: 00:34:10

I never really had that.

560

: 00:34:11

But I see some clients where it's

like, Oh, I probably will never

561

: 00:34:14

be able to blah, blah, blah, blah.

562

: 00:34:15

I never really have.

563

: 00:34:16

Mine was just a bit over ambitious.

564

: 00:34:17

It was a bit like, Oh, we could

definitely do this and this and this.

565

: 00:34:20

But then when it was managing me in

the moment, it was very, um, indulgent.

566

: 00:34:28

It was very sort of, Oh, you

know, you're probably quite tired.

567

: 00:34:32

You probably could leave the

dishwasher till later or whatever.

568

: 00:34:36

Um, and yeah, you're right.

569

: 00:34:39

The notion of thinking about what I

was saying to myself with a brain that

570

: 00:34:46

works at my ADHD speed just seemed

completely, I didn't understand.

571

: 00:34:50

Yeah.

572

: 00:34:51

I've got a very good friend who's

a psychology professor in my

573

: 00:34:55

department and she used to talk

to me about some of this stuff.

574

: 00:34:57

I was like, I don't understand.

575

: 00:34:59

You mean there's a stage before

words coming out of your mouth

576

: 00:35:01

that involves thinking about them?

577

: 00:35:03

Is that real?

578

: 00:35:04

Are you lying to me?

579

: 00:35:05

I don't understand.

580

: 00:35:07

Um, But there was something, I think,

about the group coaching, where I

581

: 00:35:13

was seeing other people's thoughts,

that it was like, Oh, you, you're

582

: 00:35:20

just, you're, the way you're sort

of bossing yourself, you're making

583

: 00:35:27

it really hard to follow through.

584

: 00:35:30

This is, this is not always

an implementation problem.

585

: 00:35:33

This is a, you're saying

really mean things to yourself.

586

: 00:35:37

and making this a really

hard schedule to follow.

587

: 00:35:42

And I just see that in so many academics.

588

: 00:35:45

People telling themselves they should

be able to write for eight hours a day,

589

: 00:35:49

and they should be able to produce a

draft that doesn't sound terrible on the

590

: 00:35:53

first attempt, and all of these things.

591

: 00:35:55

And whilst also telling themselves

they're not good enough.

592

: 00:35:59

So, like, this weird Perfectionism and

imposter syndrome that coexist somehow.

593

: 00:36:05

Yes.

594

: 00:36:05

That I have to be better than everybody

else and produce this in a way that

595

: 00:36:09

I wouldn't expect from anybody else.

596

: 00:36:11

And at the same time, I'm a piece of

shit who doesn't deserve to be here.

597

: 00:36:15

. Geri: And I can't do it

because I'm a piece of shit

598

: 00:36:17

who doesn't deserve to be here.

599

: 00:36:18

But I have to prove it even more.

600

: 00:36:20

Vikki: Exactly.

601

: 00:36:21

Um.

602

: 00:36:23

And so

603

: 00:36:24

Geri: Not logical for people who are

working in the academic scientific space

604

: 00:36:28

is supposed to be able to think logically.

605

: 00:36:30

Vikki: But we're all humans in that.

606

: 00:36:31

I think, I think sometimes, especially,

you know, everyone I work with has

607

: 00:36:36

come through school as one of the

like brighter ones and all of that.

608

: 00:36:39

Mm hmm.

609

: 00:36:40

And they're used to being high achievers,

and they somehow think that that means

610

: 00:36:44

they get out of having emotions and

they get out of not being perfect and

611

: 00:36:47

it's like, it doesn't work like that.

612

: 00:36:50

And so yeah, you're absolutely right.

613

: 00:36:52

It takes a lot of practice and support,

to be honest, to be able to separate

614

: 00:36:57

out, um, sort of hearing what you

say to yourself and deciding to what

615

: 00:37:04

extent you want to reinforce that, or

to what extent you want to go, yeah,

616

: 00:37:10

yeah, I know, I know you think that,

but it's okay, we can do it anyway.

617

: 00:37:14

Geri: Which is a boss who actually

has the ability to stand back and go,

618

: 00:37:19

let me think about that for a minute.

619

: 00:37:20

Vikki: Yeah, which hundred percent

620

: 00:37:22

Geri: And make a choice

about how to respond.

621

: 00:37:25

And I'm also hearing the way that

you described your own drive as being

622

: 00:37:31

coming very much from you and self

driven and you also pointed to other

623

: 00:37:35

people that you've worked with where the

drive is more because their supervisor

624

: 00:37:39

says so that should Has come from

external things and not measuring up.

625

: 00:37:44

And then there are the other people

that you talked about, who maybe have

626

: 00:37:48

more of a self confidence issue and

just don't feel like they're able to.

627

: 00:37:52

And in some ways, like the

behaviors can play out the same.

628

: 00:37:59

But where they're coming from is so

different and I imagine that how you

629

: 00:38:04

would approach dealing with them or

working with someone as they work

630

: 00:38:08

through that would be very different.

631

: 00:38:10

Do you want to say any more about that?

632

: 00:38:13

Vikki: Yeah, no, absolutely.

633

: 00:38:14

And I think this is a true As a coach,

but it's also true as a supervisor.

634

: 00:38:19

So I do supervisor training as well.

635

: 00:38:22

And often supervisors are very

focused on the behaviors, right?

636

: 00:38:27

And the outcomes.

637

: 00:38:28

They're very focused on, is my

student turning up with the right

638

: 00:38:32

data or the right writing at

the times they said they would?

639

: 00:38:35

And if they're not, There's a problem.

640

: 00:38:38

And obviously people are getting much

better now at recognizing well being

641

: 00:38:40

problems and all that sort of stuff.

642

: 00:38:42

And so asking, are you okay?

643

: 00:38:44

But what we often don't get to

is what is it that's making it

644

: 00:38:49

hard to reach these deadlines?

645

: 00:38:51

And often supervisors

respond by being more strict.

646

: 00:38:55

They can respond by being more

controlling and more like, well,

647

: 00:38:57

you know, show me as you go along.

648

: 00:38:59

Let's have more deadlines.

649

: 00:39:01

Let's have, you know, we'll

do it more supervised way.

650

: 00:39:03

Um.

651

: 00:39:04

When actually what's often happening is

that these students have got a lot of

652

: 00:39:10

thoughts going on about whether they're,

whether they, you know, who are they

653

: 00:39:14

to make a decision as to whether to

analyze it this way or that way or, you

654

: 00:39:18

know, who are they to make an argument

or those sorts of things or they're

655

: 00:39:21

getting ahead of themselves into what's

my supervisor going to think about this.

656

: 00:39:26

And so often, as you say, lots of

different reasons can come into play.

657

: 00:39:33

Culminate in that same behavior of

not submitting something on time.

658

: 00:39:38

And if as coaches, but if as supervisors,

we can't pick that apart or at least

659

: 00:39:44

recognize that there might be more

than one reason, then that kind of one

660

: 00:39:49

size fits all solution is, is just not

gonna, it's just not going to get there.

661

: 00:39:57

Geri: I think that's one of

the most critical skills for

662

: 00:40:00

supervisors to learn, isn't it?

663

: 00:40:02

To stay open and curious

about what's going on.

664

: 00:40:06

what's happening for this person.

665

: 00:40:08

Um, I was just in a mentor the mentor

workshop last week, and one of the

666

: 00:40:13

people there was talking more about

their supervisions, um, that they have.

667

: 00:40:18

And the story that they told, they had

their own sort of self awareness as we

668

: 00:40:22

were going along about, they were wanting

the other person to be a mini me.

669

: 00:40:27

And not, thinking about who were they,

what was mini them and what did they

670

: 00:40:32

want and how could they support them

and realize that a lot of the measures

671

: 00:40:36

that they'd implemented were what

they would have wanted or what they

672

: 00:40:40

assumed was the issue because that

would have been the issue for them.

673

: 00:40:44

Vikki: Yeah, 100%.

674

: 00:40:46

So often I see supervisors saying,

Well, if I'm taking a deadline

675

: 00:40:51

seriously, I always hit the deadline.

676

: 00:40:54

And so that means they must not

be taking this deadline seriously.

677

: 00:40:58

When in reality, often the

problem is that they're taking the

678

: 00:41:00

deadline way too seriously, holding

themselves to a ridiculous standard.

679

: 00:41:05

And they're too scared to even start

start writing because they haven't read

680

: 00:41:08

enough and they don't know enough yet.

681

: 00:41:09

Yeah.

682

: 00:41:10

You know, I definitely can't write

anything until I've read all of this.

683

: 00:41:13

Um, so yeah, absolutely.

684

: 00:41:15

That kind of, just assuming that

people are like you and respond to

685

: 00:41:20

situations in the same way Can, yeah.

686

: 00:41:23

Can cause lots of problems.

687

: 00:41:24

Geri: So if you are doing a supervisor

workshop, how do you work with them to

688

: 00:41:29

develop different skills to do that?

689

: 00:41:31

What sort of core skills?

690

: 00:41:33

Vikki: Well, the first thing is

actually almost exactly the same

691

: 00:41:36

as I do with students, which is

that self understanding, because

692

: 00:41:39

Geri: Yes, it's core to

everything, isn't it?

693

: 00:41:41

Vikki: Yeah, it completely is, because

so often, you know, you can go to a

694

: 00:41:46

supervisor training where they say,

what you need to do is you need to

695

: 00:41:49

stay in regular contact, provide

feedback on time regularly to a high

696

: 00:41:53

quality, and adapt your behavior to

whoever you've got in front of you.

697

: 00:41:56

And if as a supervisor, you're going,

well, that's great, Very lovely, but I'm

698

: 00:42:00

teaching three modules this semester,

I've got 10 PhD students, 30 undergraduate

699

: 00:42:05

project students, and I haven't seen my

kids in a month, um, then they're not

700

: 00:42:10

going to show up like that, um, from a

workload perspective, but also from a,

701

: 00:42:15

if in their heads, they've got this,

well, I need to get this student through

702

: 00:42:20

because otherwise I'm not going to get

promoted or I'll never get that grant if

703

: 00:42:23

we don't get this pilot data collected.

704

: 00:42:25

I want to be really nice to this

student, but I'm worried I shouldn't

705

: 00:42:28

have picked them in the first

place, and da da da, all this stuff.

706

: 00:42:31

If we can't regulate

that for ourselves, Yes.

707

: 00:42:35

we start trying to control the

behaviour of others in order

708

: 00:42:40

to make ourselves feel better.

709

: 00:42:41

And so that's where a stressing supervisor

will often start being too controlling

710

: 00:42:49

over a student as a way of managing their

own anxiety about the student's progress.

711

: 00:42:56

And so that's where I start with it all.

712

: 00:42:58

We go into some quite cool stuff about how

you can use writing to build a supervisory

713

: 00:43:03

relationship and all these sorts of

things, and some more specific kind of

714

: 00:43:07

task management tools that you can use.

715

: 00:43:10

But really the core of it is

is understanding how your own

716

: 00:43:15

experience of supervision and your

own experience of being an academic

717

: 00:43:18

influences how you engage with all

of your students and how your first

718

: 00:43:25

responsibility is regulating that bit.

719

: 00:43:27

And it's the same in

any relationship, right?

720

: 00:43:29

This is true of parenting.

721

: 00:43:30

It's true of, you know,

partner relationships,

722

: 00:43:33

friendships, all of this stuff.

723

: 00:43:35

If we rely on other people to regulate

our whole emotions make us feel better,

724

: 00:43:39

or to get us to do particular actions.

725

: 00:43:41

Then everyone just starts being

a bit weird with each other.

726

: 00:43:44

We can take responsibility.

727

: 00:43:45

You know, my thoughts, feelings,

actions, outcomes are mine.

728

: 00:43:48

Yours are yours.

729

: 00:43:49

But my job is to create an environment

in which you're most likely to flourish.

730

: 00:43:55

Um, if we can start from there,

then everything gets a little

731

: 00:44:00

bit more straightforward.

732

: 00:44:03

Geri: Did you develop those skills over

time as a supervisor or have the insights

733

: 00:44:07

developed more deeply as you've moved into

more of this coaching role and working?

734

: 00:44:12

Vikki: I'm definitely, yeah, I'm,

I'd even go so, so far to say that

735

: 00:44:17

I'm mildly self conscious of ex

students listening to my podcast.

736

: 00:44:22

So I have a podcast, The PhD Life Coach,

and I was, I was a good supervisor, I

737

: 00:44:30

think, in the sense that I was keen and

helpful and enthusiastic and engaged,

738

: 00:44:38

all of those things, definitely.

739

: 00:44:40

However, I was also definitely someone

who would lose track that something was

740

: 00:44:47

happening and then panic at the last

minute about whether it was or not.

741

: 00:44:50

So I would sort of not follow up with

them for a while then stress out

742

: 00:44:54

about whether it had been done or

not, things like that, definitely.

743

: 00:44:58

Um, depending, I, I supervise across

a slightly silly range of disciplines,

744

: 00:45:07

just because I have a lot of interests

and an interdisciplinary approach.

745

: 00:45:11

And.

746

: 00:45:12

Yeah, there were definitely times

where, where I just didn't show

747

: 00:45:17

up as my best self, where there

were too many other things.

748

: 00:45:20

I don't, you know,

nothing ever went wrong.

749

: 00:45:21

They all, you know,

they were all wonderful.

750

: 00:45:23

They will still talk to me.

751

: 00:45:25

Um, but I definitely don't hold

myself up as being, you know,

752

: 00:45:28

I got it right the whole time.

753

: 00:45:31

Um, I sometimes wonder what it would

be like now to supervise PhD students

754

: 00:45:37

with it, how easy I would find it to

practice what I preach, as it were.

755

: 00:45:41

Um,

756

: 00:45:44

but yeah, I think even just having

that compassion on both sides

757

: 00:45:49

that not everyone shows up the

way they intend to all the time.

758

: 00:45:53

Yeah.

759

: 00:45:54

It just.

760

: 00:45:54

Geri: And we're all on a learning journey.

761

: 00:45:56

Vikki: Yeah.

762

: 00:45:57

Geri: We're all on a learning

journey and that giving ourselves the

763

: 00:46:00

grace to be on a learning journey.

764

: 00:46:02

And we learn most from when

we don't get it always right.

765

: 00:46:05

I don't, I can tell.

766

: 00:46:07

I think a lot of the stuff I do is

driven by the stories of what I did

767

: 00:46:11

that I now think, Oh my goodness, you

know, and I think one of the things

768

: 00:46:17

that I'm starting to believe more and

more and more is important as we have

769

: 00:46:22

an explicit discussion in any of these

sorts of relationships that we're going

770

: 00:46:27

to, you know, like the expectation

that we are going to get it wrong.

771

: 00:46:31

And what do we do?

772

: 00:46:32

How are we going to handle this together?

773

: 00:46:34

And your freedom to speak up and

my freedom to say, oops, sorry.

774

: 00:46:39

And how can we repair this?

775

: 00:46:40

And because I think in

the past, I may have also.

776

: 00:46:44

Tried to sort of, in the guilt thing of,

I oughtn't to have done that, uh, almost

777

: 00:46:49

pretend it didn't happen or justify

it in different ways that are really

778

: 00:46:54

not, accountable when I look back.

779

: 00:46:57

Vikki: Yeah, no, definitely.

780

: 00:46:58

And people, I think that's

one of the things that's

781

: 00:46:59

interesting with coaching, right?

782

: 00:47:01

Because I think people think that

if they do sufficient coaching and

783

: 00:47:05

they do all this kind of mindset

work and stuff, that they just

784

: 00:47:07

won't make these mistakes in future.

785

: 00:47:09

Yeah.

786

: 00:47:09

And in my experience, that's not true.

787

: 00:47:12

We're laughing.

788

: 00:47:12

We, you know.

789

: 00:47:12

Maybe make them a bit less, but for

me, the bit that becomes so powerful

790

: 00:47:18

is also how you respond after that.

791

: 00:47:20

So, for me, if you can do the kind of

good self compassion piece, which is

792

: 00:47:25

something we work on a lot, then, um,

after you've snapped at somebody or

793

: 00:47:32

given more critical feedback than you

intended or whatever, not turned up for

794

: 00:47:36

something you were meant to or whatever,

if you're not making that mean that you're

795

: 00:47:41

an awful person or you're not making

it mean that it's their fault because

796

: 00:47:47

they should have given it to you sooner,

then it can be more of a like, Oh crap.

797

: 00:47:52

I was meant to do that.

798

: 00:47:53

Wasn't I?

799

: 00:47:55

The one for me was always, um, I

always forgot things like my MOT

800

: 00:47:58

and my, for my car and my mum would

always remind me, she'd always say,

801

: 00:48:03

Oh, your MOT is due in about July.

802

: 00:48:06

Is that just a UK thing?

803

: 00:48:07

It's a car check.

804

: 00:48:09

It's a legal thing.

805

: 00:48:10

Your insurance is invalid without it.

806

: 00:48:12

So you have to go and have your

car checked over once a year.

807

: 00:48:15

And I'd always forget when it was.

808

: 00:48:17

And my mum was like, I think

your MOT's due in July.

809

: 00:48:20

And I used to get so mad.

810

: 00:48:22

In my head, that meant that

she thought I was useless.

811

: 00:48:25

She thought that I wasn't on top of it.

812

: 00:48:26

I'd be like, alright, it's

fine, I know, it's in my diary.

813

: 00:48:29

And then afterwards I'd be like,

shit, it's not in my diary.

814

: 00:48:32

Wait, I don't know how to do it.

815

: 00:48:34

But I'd be so defensive with her.

816

: 00:48:36

Um, whereas, Once we can do this kind of

self compassion piece where it's like,

817

: 00:48:41

you know, I forget stuff sometimes.

818

: 00:48:43

I do.

819

: 00:48:43

It's how it goes.

820

: 00:48:44

Um, it's not that we don't try

and it's not that we don't put

821

: 00:48:47

systems in place to avoid it.

822

: 00:48:49

But if we can just, exactly,

it doesn't mean a lot about us.

823

: 00:48:51

It just means we forgot that thing.

824

: 00:48:53

Then suddenly I can respond

to my mum with that.

825

: 00:48:55

Oh, you're right.

826

: 00:48:56

Yeah, good shout.

827

: 00:48:57

I'll give them a call.

828

: 00:48:58

And similarly with students and whatever,

it can be like, Um, I was meant to

829

: 00:49:02

give you feedback for today, wasn't it?

830

: 00:49:03

I'm so sorry.

831

: 00:49:04

I haven't done it.

832

: 00:49:04

Let me look at my diary.

833

: 00:49:05

We'll figure out a time

now that we can do it.

834

: 00:49:07

Whereas, if it's this big deal, we

often avoid it, or we get defensive,

835

: 00:49:13

or, you know, we just generally

exacerbate what was only a small thing.

836

: 00:49:19

And I think that that was

something I was probably okay at.

837

: 00:49:21

I've never been a grudge

bearing sort of a person.

838

: 00:49:24

So I think the kind of, certainly with

their mistakes, I was pretty good at

839

: 00:49:31

kind of getting over that quite quickly.

840

: 00:49:33

Maybe not quite so good

when it was my mistakes.

841

: 00:49:37

Geri: Because you're a harsher boss

on yourself than on other people.

842

: 00:49:40

So it sounds like self compassion is one

of the key tools that a best boss brings.

843

: 00:49:47

What are some of the other aspects

of being your own best boss

844

: 00:49:51

that you think are really key?

845

: 00:49:53

Vikki: So I actually, so I

have a online course called

846

: 00:49:55

how to be your own best boss.

847

: 00:49:56

And It's kind of different sections

in it, but the final section has 10

848

: 00:50:01

qualities that I think a good boss needs.

849

: 00:50:03

We always start with compassion because

everything else just doesn't work if we

850

: 00:50:08

can't start to develop that in ourselves.

851

: 00:50:11

Um, curiosity is, I won't do all

10, but curiosity is a huge one.

852

: 00:50:15

That sort of, I wonder why.

853

: 00:50:18

I'm doing that.

854

: 00:50:18

Or I wonder why they might be doing

that and sort of being open and

855

: 00:50:22

non judgmental and just sort of

wondering what options there are.

856

: 00:50:27

Cause we often have quite fixed

reasoning around why someone would

857

: 00:50:31

do something or what they should do.

858

: 00:50:34

Geri: Even the emotions that you

talked about before, you know,

859

: 00:50:37

being aware that curiosity about

your own emotions or reactions, I

860

: 00:50:42

wonder why, where's that coming from?

861

: 00:50:45

Vikki: Why did that hurt so much?

862

: 00:50:46

Why did I get so defensive

when he said that?

863

: 00:50:49

What was it that bothered me?

864

: 00:50:51

So in that meeting example where I, where

I exploded, the reason, you know, when I

865

: 00:50:56

looked at that with curiosity afterwards,

it was because I thought that too.

866

: 00:51:01

I thought I should have consulted

with people too and I hadn't had time

867

: 00:51:07

and I hadn't been able to do that

and I hadn't prioritized doing that.

868

: 00:51:10

But that was why if he was asking

me something that was stupid, I

869

: 00:51:14

don't think I'd have got so upset.

870

: 00:51:15

It was because I thought that

too, that I got so upset.

871

: 00:51:18

Geri: And so you're disappointed

in yourself in a way.

872

: 00:51:21

Vikki: But it was only through that kind

of curiosity of, I get so upset about

873

: 00:51:26

that, that that became really important.

874

: 00:51:29

Geri: Um.

875

: 00:51:29

Self compassion, curiosity.

876

: 00:51:32

Vikki: Yeah.

877

: 00:51:33

I was just thinking

through which other ones.

878

: 00:51:35

So I think, so I have ambitious and

realistic, and I think those are

879

: 00:51:40

really interesting to hold together.

880

: 00:51:43

And that is, the ambitious

is around believing.

881

: 00:51:49

How much you can do and how many

things you've got ahead of you without

882

: 00:51:56

having to be this perfect being.

883

: 00:51:58

How far you can go with, without changing

fundamental things about yourself.

884

: 00:52:07

Um, so it's sort of being ambitious and

believing that you can get there, um,

885

: 00:52:13

but not in a kind of, What's the word?

886

: 00:52:17

Like a dream world kind of way.

887

: 00:52:19

If I can just find the perfect

system, find the perfect whatever,

888

: 00:52:22

then I can just, I know, actually,

I can get to these things I can do

889

: 00:52:25

more than I think I'm capable of.

890

: 00:52:28

Um, so that's the kind of ambitious

side, but then the realistic side

891

: 00:52:31

is around sort of recognizing that

you are always going to be you.

892

: 00:52:38

You are always going to have.

893

: 00:52:41

Some of the qualities you have now,

there are going to be things that

894

: 00:52:43

you're going to have to actively

manage for the rest of your life.

895

: 00:52:46

And often we need to be realistic

more in the kind of day to day

896

: 00:52:51

expectations of what can be

done in a short amount of time.

897

: 00:52:54

So it's sort of ambitious in the longer

term, realistic in the day to day, so

898

: 00:52:59

that you can you can kind of keep things

moving and keep kind of understanding,

899

: 00:53:05

you know, that whole kind of B minus work

is good enough thing being realistic and

900

: 00:53:09

what quality something needs to be in

order to be meaningful and important.

901

: 00:53:16

Geri: I was going to just say something

very similar that is one of the key

902

: 00:53:21

skills in that realistic piece, isn't it?

903

: 00:53:24

Is, I don't know, being realistic about

you can't do the same high standard,

904

: 00:53:30

especially if you're someone who has high

standards and push yourself, that you

905

: 00:53:35

don't have to do it for everything and

what is really important and worth it.

906

: 00:53:39

Vikki: Yeah, 100%.

907

: 00:53:41

And it goes back to this notion of,

you know, we're talking about the plate

908

: 00:53:43

and the meal at the beginning, um,

is, You can have a high standard life.

909

: 00:53:50

You can have a high standard plate.

910

: 00:53:53

It doesn't mean that every single

element of your life needs to

911

: 00:53:58

be done to a perfect standard.

912

: 00:54:00

You can have a high standard thesis,

or research article, or whatever, which

913

: 00:54:05

has got a few clunky sentences in it.

914

: 00:54:07

It doesn't stop it being a

high standard piece of work.

915

: 00:54:11

And I think sometimes we get fixated

on how every little bit has to be

916

: 00:54:16

high standard, rather than looking

at what makes a high standard whole.

917

: 00:54:23

And I see this a lot, I have a lot of

clients who are part time PhD students,

918

: 00:54:28

so they have other jobs alongside

their PhD, or I have clients who are

919

: 00:54:32

academics and also parents and things

like this, and so they're sort of

920

: 00:54:36

juggling different roles in their life.

921

: 00:54:38

And a lot of the time they talk about that

they're not performing highly in any one

922

: 00:54:44

zone of their life, you know, they're not,

they're not a good enough academic because

923

: 00:54:49

they're a parent and they're putting time

and care into that, and they're not a

924

: 00:54:51

good enough parent because they're putting

time and care into their academic life.

925

: 00:54:55

One of the things we try and think about

is if we look at it as a life, rather

926

: 00:54:59

than as two other lives, like academia and

parenting, for example, then we can say

927

: 00:55:05

what is a high standard academic parent.

928

: 00:55:10

What does the life of a high

standard academic parent look like?

929

: 00:55:13

And that can't be a hundred percent of

what a parent who doesn't got an academic

930

: 00:55:19

career and a hundred percent of what

an academic without kids looks like.

931

: 00:55:23

But what would it look like

to have a high standard?

932

: 00:55:27

academic parenting life.

933

: 00:55:29

And suddenly you start seeing that

actually how that is high standard is

934

: 00:55:34

by having some bits where it matters

and some bits where it doesn't.

935

: 00:55:38

Some bits where it's like, you

know what, if my kid is fed

936

: 00:55:41

tonight, that is good enough.

937

: 00:55:43

They will cope with a little bit of

television and something out the freezer

938

: 00:55:47

because they're entertained, they're

alive, they're fed, happy days, that

939

: 00:55:52

is good enough, I need to do this.

940

: 00:55:54

Other times, It's, I'm not going to

be at that meeting because it's their

941

: 00:55:58

carol concert and I'm, I'm going

that's, you know, and that's what you

942

: 00:56:03

then you're not judging yourself for

making, you know, entirely homemade

943

: 00:56:07

meal over here, judging yourself for

not going to that meeting as well.

944

: 00:56:11

It's like, on the whole, this

adds up to a high standard.

945

: 00:56:16

Geri: I've almost got in my head

a picture of, um, you've got

946

: 00:56:19

two bosses warring in your head.

947

: 00:56:21

You've got your academic boss and

your parent boss, and both of them

948

: 00:56:25

are trying to get your full attention.

949

: 00:56:27

Vikki: And it needs to be just one boss.

950

: 00:56:29

Geri: And you need to step into the middle

and say, Yeah, you know, step aside.

951

: 00:56:35

Vikki: Yeah, this isn't

two separate things.

952

: 00:56:37

We have, we have one like, I

don't really like this notion

953

: 00:56:39

of like work life balance.

954

: 00:56:41

No.

955

: 00:56:41

We have, we have a life, and we are

the boss of that, and we get to decide.

956

: 00:56:48

And it's not always going

to look the same, right?

957

: 00:56:50

That's one of the things that as

our own bosses we get to choose.

958

: 00:56:53

There's going to be times where it's

like, you know what, during this period

959

: 00:56:57

of time, This stuff's going to rise

to the surface and I'm going to rely on

960

: 00:57:01

more family support or whoever we've got.

961

: 00:57:02

I know not everyone has that luck,

that luxury, but you know, we're

962

: 00:57:06

going to rely on other support to

help with family things, or I'm just

963

: 00:57:08

going to have lower expectations

of myself and they'll be fine.

964

: 00:57:11

And then other times, you know, work goes

a little bit more on the back burner and

965

: 00:57:16

family stuff has to be higher priority.

966

: 00:57:18

We can change these things week to

week, day to day, or like phases.

967

: 00:57:22

It is.

968

: 00:57:24

Um, but it takes that little sort of

slight step back to be like, okay,

969

: 00:57:28

what could good look like here?

970

: 00:57:32

And how can I, how can I make up

something here that sort of muddles

971

: 00:57:36

out on the whole be a good life?

972

: 00:57:39

Because chasing perfect

and all of it feels crap

973

: 00:57:42

Geri: And good is good is good, isn't it?

974

: 00:57:46

Sometimes people interpret

good as compromise or.

975

: 00:57:50

Not good enough, but it's good.

976

: 00:57:52

Yeah, it is good.

977

: 00:57:54

Vikki: A hundred percent.

978

: 00:57:54

Because thing is, we're also

often, we're choosing really silly

979

: 00:57:59

markers of what is excellent.

980

: 00:58:01

So like, I know people get

themselves, you know, they get very

981

: 00:58:04

caught up on, you know, I need to.

982

: 00:58:07

Homemade food, let's say that.

983

: 00:58:09

Whether it's for yourself, for your

partner, for your kids, whoever.

984

: 00:58:11

Homemade food.

985

: 00:58:12

I need to be eating nutritiously and

cooking most of it myself and da da da.

986

: 00:58:15

They'll get all caught up on that,

um, and then struggle to balance

987

: 00:58:18

that with their academic life.

988

: 00:58:21

And if the attempt to do that is

making you grumpy and obnoxious.

989

: 00:58:28

The overall picture is not better here.

990

: 00:58:30

It's like, we're attempting to eat

homemade food and succeed at university

991

: 00:58:34

and the price of that is I'm snapping

at everybody and judging myself.

992

: 00:58:39

I'd far rather you were only cooking

homemade food twice a week and eating

993

: 00:58:43

something out of a jar the rest of

the time and being nice to yourself

994

: 00:58:47

and the people around you because

that's going to add up to a much

995

: 00:58:50

nicer, healthier life than any kind of

perfectionist idea of like standards.

996

: 00:58:57

And the same is true with work, right?

997

: 00:58:59

I'd far rather that your lectures

were sorted and ready to go for the

998

: 00:59:03

term, than one of them was beautiful

and carefully researched and put

999

: 00:59:08

together and the others don't exist.

: 1000

00:59:14,370 --> 00:59:17,240

Geri: So there's, there's still

the job of getting stuff done.

: 1001

00:59:18,375 --> 00:59:24,655

And, and the warring bosses in your

head and trying to create the boss that

: 1002

00:59:24,655 --> 00:59:29,175

you want and getting it to stand up to

the others with compassion and curiosity

: 1003

00:59:29,175 --> 00:59:32,365

and care, and self awareness as well.

: 1004

00:59:33,075 --> 00:59:37,600

So, building on that, if we have those as

foundations and we're practicing some of

: 1005

00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:43,140

those things, how do we then practically

still manage to get stuff done?

: 1006

00:59:43,770 --> 00:59:47,670

Vikki: Yeah, it's such a good question

because often I find that coaches

: 1007

00:59:47,670 --> 00:59:49,350

fall on one side of this or the other.

: 1008

00:59:49,350 --> 00:59:52,000

They're either all mindset and it's

just, if you can get your thoughts

: 1009

00:59:52,010 --> 00:59:53,630

straight, then we'll be good.

: 1010

00:59:53,980 --> 00:59:57,410

Or they're very tips and

tricks and technique focus.

: 1011

00:59:57,740 --> 01:00:01,400

Well, I try and balance the two and

in the Be Your Own Best Boss course,

: 1012

01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:02,430

there's, there's elements of both.

: 1013

01:00:04,485 --> 01:00:08,425

One of the tools that I really, really

like, and I've sort of developed

: 1014

01:00:08,505 --> 01:00:11,175

over the last couple of years is

called role based time blocking.

: 1015

01:00:11,495 --> 01:00:15,975

So people will have heard time blocking

before where you kind of plan what

: 1016

01:00:16,095 --> 01:00:19,595

blocks of time you're going to use,

usually for specific tasks, right?

: 1017

01:00:19,615 --> 01:00:22,715

I'll write this in that block

and I'll do this in that block.

: 1018

01:00:23,415 --> 01:00:27,145

The idea behind role based time

blocking is that we all have a

: 1019

01:00:27,145 --> 01:00:28,875

variety of roles in our lives.

: 1020

01:00:28,995 --> 01:00:30,395

Now there might be some roles.

: 1021

01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,490

In your personal life, you're a parent

or you're a partner or whatever,

: 1022

01:00:33,950 --> 01:00:38,270

but even within your academic

life, you have multiple roles.

: 1023

01:00:38,270 --> 01:00:41,940

You're a, you know, you lead

a particular module whatever.

: 1024

01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:43,170

You have an admin role.

: 1025

01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,700

You have a certain research

project or whatever.

: 1026

01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:49,930

And even for PhD students, the

earlier stage of this stuff,

: 1027

01:00:50,190 --> 01:00:52,780

they'll have a role of writer.

: 1028

01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:56,790

They'll have a role of data collector

or data analyzer or whatever.

: 1029

01:00:57,455 --> 01:01:01,705

And the idea behind this technique is that

we get clear on what the different roles

: 1030

01:01:01,865 --> 01:01:09,245

are, and then, for like this period of our

life, what proportional amount of time do

: 1031

01:01:09,245 --> 01:01:11,115

I want to spend in these different roles?

: 1032

01:01:11,115 --> 01:01:15,545

And so what we get to do is instead of

putting specific tasks on our calendars,

: 1033

01:01:15,875 --> 01:01:17,985

we get to put roles in our calendars.

: 1034

01:01:17,985 --> 01:01:22,005

So we get to say, between this

time and this time on a Monday,

: 1035

01:01:22,375 --> 01:01:25,115

I am module organiser me.

: 1036

01:01:25,135 --> 01:01:26,595

So I'm in teaching mode.

: 1037

01:01:26,655 --> 01:01:28,495

That's, that's where I do that stuff.

: 1038

01:01:28,725 --> 01:01:31,065

In this block, I'm in

data collection mode.

: 1039

01:01:31,065 --> 01:01:33,825

In that block, I'm in

writing mode, for example.

: 1040

01:01:34,595 --> 01:01:38,535

And what this does is it separates out.

: 1041

01:01:38,875 --> 01:01:42,035

these different tasks so that you

don't feel quite so much like you're

: 1042

01:01:42,045 --> 01:01:43,545

having to be all things to all people.

: 1043

01:01:43,545 --> 01:01:46,975

In that block of time you are

solely a writer or in that block

: 1044

01:01:46,975 --> 01:01:48,515

of time you're solely a teacher.

: 1045

01:01:49,305 --> 01:01:52,775

And it also helps if one of the things

that people always criticize time blocking

: 1046

01:01:52,775 --> 01:01:56,275

for is not knowing how long things take

and not deciding how long things take.

: 1047

01:01:56,275 --> 01:01:56,865

Yes.

: 1048

01:01:56,865 --> 01:02:01,335

And what this get you get to do in

this is that it's a I haven't decided

: 1049

01:02:01,365 --> 01:02:06,405

exactly which of the tasks I'm going

to do, but it's going to be tasks

: 1050

01:02:06,415 --> 01:02:09,955

that are to do with the module I'm

teaching this year, for example.

: 1051

01:02:10,685 --> 01:02:15,295

And so I then have a role based

task management system as well, where

: 1052

01:02:15,295 --> 01:02:17,695

my tasks are divided out by roles.

: 1053

01:02:17,955 --> 01:02:23,385

So if I'm in a block where I'm thinking

about being a Podcast host, for example.

: 1054

01:02:23,745 --> 01:02:28,165

Um, I have my to dos that are to do

with the production of my podcast.

: 1055

01:02:28,775 --> 01:02:32,525

And when my brain is going, as it

inevitably does, Oh yeah, yeah,

: 1056

01:02:32,525 --> 01:02:34,695

but you, you need to contact

that client about whatever.

: 1057

01:02:34,695 --> 01:02:37,225

It's like, yeah, I'll do that

in my operations section.

: 1058

01:02:37,755 --> 01:02:38,385

That's on the list.

: 1059

01:02:39,285 --> 01:02:40,725

I'll do it when I'm on operations.

: 1060

01:02:40,995 --> 01:02:43,335

Right now I'm podcast

host and that's all I am.

: 1061

01:02:43,795 --> 01:02:45,425

Um, so we're just doing podcast jobs.

: 1062

01:02:45,895 --> 01:02:51,705

And having that sort of, it's like a

sort of in between time blocking where

: 1063

01:02:51,705 --> 01:02:55,105

we're not just having a complete free

for all do whatever, but we're not

: 1064

01:02:55,105 --> 01:02:59,055

plotting this exact task in this exact

minute and then getting out of control.

: 1065

01:03:00,045 --> 01:03:03,215

Just hugely, hugely helps.

: 1066

01:03:03,315 --> 01:03:06,315

So to say you're kind of makes it

really clear, makes it much more

: 1067

01:03:06,315 --> 01:03:08,305

limited what things you've got to do.

: 1068

01:03:08,615 --> 01:03:09,535

In that block.

: 1069

01:03:09,995 --> 01:03:13,915

Um, and enables you to look at

your week and go, am I spending

: 1070

01:03:13,915 --> 01:03:15,935

this how I want to spend it?

: 1071

01:03:15,935 --> 01:03:18,085

Within the constraints I've got.

: 1072

01:03:18,435 --> 01:03:18,865

Yes.

: 1073

01:03:19,115 --> 01:03:23,505

Am I spending this proportionally

where I want to be spending it?

: 1074

01:03:23,575 --> 01:03:23,885

Geri: Yeah.

: 1075

01:03:24,570 --> 01:03:26,840

And where your energy is as well, like.

: 1076

01:03:26,930 --> 01:03:30,850

Vikki: 100 percent because, and that's

really important because often people

: 1077

01:03:30,850 --> 01:03:35,550

say, yeah, but what if I come round to

the writing section and I don't feel like

: 1078

01:03:35,550 --> 01:03:37,520

writing, I'm just not there for writing.

: 1079

01:03:37,670 --> 01:03:40,580

Well, what we often do in that

is we go off and do some little

: 1080

01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:45,380

admin task and then wonder why we

never get any writing done, right?

: 1081

01:03:45,460 --> 01:03:49,310

Whereas with role based time

blocking, what the argument would

: 1082

01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:51,100

be is that you're in writer mode.

: 1083

01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,020

If you're not feeling like writing, okay.

: 1084

01:03:55,085 --> 01:03:56,565

Then we write slowly.

: 1085

01:03:57,125 --> 01:03:58,955

We write just a little bit.

: 1086

01:03:59,155 --> 01:04:02,005

We write with low expectations of quality.

: 1087

01:04:02,215 --> 01:04:06,335

We write something that's, you

know, at a very early stage,

: 1088

01:04:06,335 --> 01:04:07,935

so it's a really rough draft.

: 1089

01:04:08,615 --> 01:04:09,715

We still write.

: 1090

01:04:10,565 --> 01:04:15,955

We just change the way we show up for

it, and we change the exact nature of it.

: 1091

01:04:16,515 --> 01:04:18,995

But we don't decide to go off

and just do something different

: 1092

01:04:18,995 --> 01:04:20,205

because it feels easier.

: 1093

01:04:20,205 --> 01:04:20,505

Yeah.

: 1094

01:04:21,355 --> 01:04:27,515

And that can be a really good way

of keeping those important but

: 1095

01:04:27,515 --> 01:04:33,015

not urgent tasks ticking over and

making it not feel like you've got

: 1096

01:04:33,015 --> 01:04:36,346

a thousand things to do because in

that block, you're just that job.

: 1097

01:04:36,346 --> 01:04:41,175

Geri: I like the way you brought your,

you illustrated again, bringing in your

: 1098

01:04:41,175 --> 01:04:45,255

own best boss, because it said to you,

I know you've got this other work to do.

: 1099

01:04:45,835 --> 01:04:46,535

We'll get to it.

: 1100

01:04:46,535 --> 01:04:48,075

There's a space in the calendar.

: 1101

01:04:48,115 --> 01:04:49,455

You know, you can calm down.

: 1102

01:04:49,485 --> 01:04:51,885

Yeah, we've thought of

that self reassurance.

: 1103

01:04:52,515 --> 01:04:54,685

It's now time to do this other thing.

: 1104

01:04:54,955 --> 01:05:01,715

I also like the way that it removes one of

the reasons that one of the many reasons

: 1105

01:05:01,715 --> 01:05:04,265

that we can beat ourselves up about that.

: 1106

01:05:04,265 --> 01:05:07,765

You know, I, I'm terrible at

estimating the time something

: 1107

01:05:07,765 --> 01:05:09,175

takes, which is what everyone says.

: 1108

01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:10,440

Everybody.

: 1109

01:05:10,550 --> 01:05:10,770

Yeah.

: 1110

01:05:10,850 --> 01:05:14,160

And the research backs that up that

we are bad at estimating our task.

: 1111

01:05:14,420 --> 01:05:18,279

And I really like that it takes

the pressure off that as an excuse.

: 1112

01:05:18,310 --> 01:05:22,529

Like, yeah, you may not have,

uh, You may have thought it would

: 1113

01:05:22,550 --> 01:05:26,580

take less time or more time, but

the point is you're in that role.

: 1114

01:05:27,170 --> 01:05:33,870

What you also indicated is that you,

the value of doing that pre planning,

: 1115

01:05:34,210 --> 01:05:37,480

the scenario planning, the what if

planning that some of the people talk

: 1116

01:05:37,490 --> 01:05:45,840

about of, if I have a writing block

in the calendar and I don't feel like

: 1117

01:05:45,870 --> 01:05:50,100

writing, then I will do slow writing.

: 1118

01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:51,910

Then I will Do something.

: 1119

01:05:52,110 --> 01:05:58,050

Like having pre thought what might be some

alternative strategy so that you're still

: 1120

01:05:58,070 --> 01:06:03,930

standing in that role and you're being

realistic again like you're realistic.

: 1121

01:06:03,990 --> 01:06:04,190

Yeah.

: 1122

01:06:04,270 --> 01:06:08,890

Vikki: 100 percent 100

percent and you know this.

: 1123

01:06:09,940 --> 01:06:15,300

The reason I do mindset with these

tools is you need both, right?

: 1124

01:06:15,340 --> 01:06:22,640

Because these tools only work if you

combine them with some self compassion,

: 1125

01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:25,800

some self understanding, some

flexibility and all of these things.

: 1126

01:06:25,830 --> 01:06:28,860

Because otherwise what happens is, you

know, you listen, I have a podcast episode

: 1127

01:06:28,860 --> 01:06:32,680

about role based time blocking, you listen

to that, you try it, you don't stick to it

: 1128

01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:36,810

perfectly, you beat yourself up, declare

it another failed system, and then don't

: 1129

01:06:36,810 --> 01:06:38,200

do anything for another couple of weeks.

: 1130

01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:43,390

Um, so the tools on their own don't

work, but if you have these sorts of

: 1131

01:06:43,390 --> 01:06:48,990

tools and then you combine it with

being open to the fact that you're

: 1132

01:06:48,990 --> 01:06:53,750

gonna explore and be curious and see

which time box do I stick to regularly?

: 1133

01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:58,029

Which roles do I find it easier

to fall into more, more readily?

: 1134

01:06:58,029 --> 01:07:01,100

Which roles do I find

myself wanting to go to?

: 1135

01:07:01,350 --> 01:07:04,779

Which roles am I like cross

that I don't have more time for?

: 1136

01:07:05,275 --> 01:07:09,565

Um, you go into it kind of curiously

and compassionately and understanding

: 1137

01:07:09,575 --> 01:07:14,065

that there's going to be times where

you've got to kind of just sort of

: 1138

01:07:14,065 --> 01:07:17,855

reassure that little inner child that

don't want to do the difficult thing

: 1139

01:07:17,855 --> 01:07:20,455

and just go, it's okay, but we are

going to, because that's the role.

: 1140

01:07:20,755 --> 01:07:24,565

You kind of combine up those

sorts of cognitive emotional

: 1141

01:07:24,915 --> 01:07:27,425

tools in order to make it.

: 1142

01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:28,840

more effective.

: 1143

01:07:28,890 --> 01:07:31,100

And I always feel the need,

I have to add this caveat.

: 1144

01:07:31,279 --> 01:07:35,390

I've been doing role based time blocking

for probably three years now, I would say.

: 1145

01:07:36,900 --> 01:07:41,920

I can think of maybe one week where

I have stuck to every block that

: 1146

01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:45,170

I said I was going to do with the

exact role I said I was going to do.

: 1147

01:07:46,645 --> 01:07:52,735

Any sort of planning system is not about,

no boss expect, no good boss expects

: 1148

01:07:52,735 --> 01:07:57,505

you to 100 percent stick to exactly what

you do at all times with no flexibility.

: 1149

01:07:58,955 --> 01:08:05,485

There is an enormous amount of benefit to

planning, scheduling, trying to implement

: 1150

01:08:05,495 --> 01:08:12,415

the best you can and then reviewing

afterwards that is hugely valuable.

: 1151

01:08:12,990 --> 01:08:13,580

Yes.

: 1152

01:08:13,770 --> 01:08:17,399

Even if you haven't stuck to it.

: 1153

01:08:18,270 --> 01:08:21,580

And I think that's one of the most

important things for people to recognize.

: 1154

01:08:21,930 --> 01:08:22,450

Geri: Yeah.

: 1155

01:08:22,580 --> 01:08:24,250

Because it is that ongoing learning.

: 1156

01:08:24,630 --> 01:08:25,010

Yeah.

: 1157

01:08:25,260 --> 01:08:25,649

A hundred percent.

: 1158

01:08:25,649 --> 01:08:26,450

And

: 1159

01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,750

you said about recognizing what

blocks come easier to you or

: 1160

01:08:31,790 --> 01:08:33,200

that you look more forward to.

: 1161

01:08:33,399 --> 01:08:36,160

And that connects back to what you

said at the very beginning when you

: 1162

01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:39,690

started to realize that this isn't

what you wanted to do in the research

: 1163

01:08:39,690 --> 01:08:41,740

because the energy wasn't there.

: 1164

01:08:42,220 --> 01:08:43,520

And then what a great.

: 1165

01:08:43,950 --> 01:08:48,569

tool for self awareness, because if you

know that there are some roles that you

: 1166

01:08:48,569 --> 01:08:54,970

particularly like, how can you shape your

time at work to do more of that, or to

: 1167

01:08:55,200 --> 01:09:00,250

reserve your high energy, high quality

time for that work that you love doing?

: 1168

01:09:00,710 --> 01:09:01,640

Vikki: 100%.

: 1169

01:09:01,670 --> 01:09:05,790

So that you're building on your

strengths and trying to create a

: 1170

01:09:05,830 --> 01:09:10,895

career and a life that uses those

strengths for As much as time possible.

: 1171

01:09:10,895 --> 01:09:12,854

I think that's, that's

all any of us can ask.

: 1172

01:09:13,495 --> 01:09:18,035

Geri: Which is, I think the, the theme

that's come through the whole thing is

: 1173

01:09:18,675 --> 01:09:26,005

you, you have to be you and it takes

work to understand who you are and not

: 1174

01:09:26,005 --> 01:09:30,404

who someone else is or not who your

unrealistic boss expects you to be.

: 1175

01:09:32,005 --> 01:09:33,915

But yeah, how do you do you?

: 1176

01:09:34,245 --> 01:09:39,625

And that means that you're a great

boss to be cultivated to do that.

: 1177

01:09:39,865 --> 01:09:40,645

Vikki: Absolutely.

: 1178

01:09:41,135 --> 01:09:41,475

Yeah.

: 1179

01:09:41,505 --> 01:09:46,694

Geri: So I will, I will link to

that, uh, role blocking podcast

: 1180

01:09:46,694 --> 01:09:49,484

episode, because I think that will

be really interesting for people.

: 1181

01:09:50,465 --> 01:09:50,524

Perfect.

: 1182

01:09:52,115 --> 01:09:56,905

So any, anything to say in wrapping

up and also, where can people find

: 1183

01:09:57,055 --> 01:09:59,455

out more about what you offer now?

: 1184

01:10:00,015 --> 01:10:03,245

Because we can hear the energy

and the passion for what you do.

: 1185

01:10:03,385 --> 01:10:03,785

Vikki: Yeah.

: 1186

01:10:03,785 --> 01:10:03,875

Perfect.

: 1187

01:10:04,035 --> 01:10:04,655

Absolutely.

: 1188

01:10:04,655 --> 01:10:07,675

The first place to start would

be the PhD Life Coach podcast.

: 1189

01:10:08,035 --> 01:10:13,615

Um, I've got ones, I've got episodes about

role based time blocking, about how to be

: 1190

01:10:13,615 --> 01:10:15,505

your own best boss, all sorts of things.

: 1191

01:10:15,505 --> 01:10:16,755

So definitely start there.

: 1192

01:10:16,805 --> 01:10:20,615

I have a free newsletter, which gives

some summaries of the podcast and gives

: 1193

01:10:20,615 --> 01:10:24,675

you some reflective activities to do

so that you actually start to implement

: 1194

01:10:24,684 --> 01:10:26,535

some of the things that I talk about.

: 1195

01:10:26,855 --> 01:10:29,995

And if from there, people want more

support, I do one to one coaching

: 1196

01:10:29,995 --> 01:10:31,745

for PhD students and academics.

: 1197

01:10:31,775 --> 01:10:34,365

And I have a membership program

for PhD students where they

: 1198

01:10:34,365 --> 01:10:38,115

get access to the sort of group

coaching that I talked about today.

: 1199

01:10:38,745 --> 01:10:39,795

Geri: Sounds wonderful.

: 1200

01:10:40,305 --> 01:10:45,215

Thank you so much for your time, for your

generosity and sharing all this with us.

: 1201

01:10:45,395 --> 01:10:45,985

Vikki: No problem.

: 1202

01:10:46,005 --> 01:10:46,905

Thank you for having me.

: 1203

01:10:47,900 --> 01:10:48,490

Geri: Thank you.

: 1204

01:10:50,940 --> 01:10:52,440

Well, it wasn't that amazing.

: 1205

01:10:54,690 --> 01:10:55,950

So I'm curious.

: 1206

01:10:56,820 --> 01:10:59,040

What do you take away from this?

: 1207

01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:05,340

There's so much there about

navigating career transitions.

: 1208

01:11:05,430 --> 01:11:07,320

About knowing yourself better.

: 1209

01:11:08,610 --> 01:11:14,280

About offering some different mindset and

practical toolkit approaches for managing

: 1210

01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:16,740

our life and being our own best boss.

: 1211

01:11:18,890 --> 01:11:27,200

I point you again to Vikki's website,

which is www.thePhDlifecoach.com.

: 1212

01:11:27,860 --> 01:11:30,650

And reminder that you can sign

up there to her Membership.

: 1213

01:11:31,070 --> 01:11:35,420

And the wait list for that is opening

up at the end of January,: 2025

: 1214

01:11:39,766 --> 01:11:43,276

You can find the summary notes,

a transcript, and related

: 1215

01:11:43,276 --> 01:11:46,416

links for this podcast on www.

: 1216

01:11:46,476 --> 01:11:46,656

changingacademiclife.

: 1217

01:11:48,356 --> 01:11:48,746

com.

: 1218

01:11:49,406 --> 01:11:53,406

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

: 1219

01:11:53,706 --> 01:11:55,446

Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

: 1220

01:11:55,496 --> 01:11:58,566

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

: 1221

01:11:58,566 --> 01:12:00,546

we can do academia differently.

: 1222

01:12:00,986 --> 01:12:05,066

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

: 1223

01:12:05,556 --> 01:12:09,636

And if something connected with you,

please consider sharing this podcast

: 1224

01:12:09,656 --> 01:12:11,896

with your colleagues together.

: 1225

01:12:11,956 --> 01:12:13,316

We can make change happen.