Evan Peck on considered choices and career moves: from liberals arts to a research uni (CAL114, S6E8)

Evan Peck returns to discuss his career evolution since our last conversation in 2017. The focus is on his initial choice to join a liberal arts college post-PhD, emphasizing the balance between teaching and research, how his research evolved, and on his career goals then. Evan then talks through his move to the University of Colorado Boulder, detailing his motivations and the strategic thinking behind the transition. He reflects on the impact of his work in responsible computing and data visualization and the importance he places on aligning career choices with personal values and goals. Evan also discussed the nuances of working in different academic environments and how he continues to prioritize student mentorship and educational impact.

Overview

00:00 Intro

03:21 Welcome Back, Evan!

04:33 The Appeal of Liberal Arts Colleges

06:26 Making Academic Paths Visible

09:31 Balancing Teaching and Research

13:21 Shifting Research Interests

22:40 The Move to Colorado

24:40 Integrating Ethics in Computing and Wanting More External Impact

33:50 Reflecting on Post-Tenure Decisions

37:16 Exploring New Opportunities

40:46 The Unexpected Offer

43:34 Transitioning to a Research Institution

47:26 Adapting to a Larger Institution

53:18 Balancing Work and Family

54:30 Reflecting on Career Choices

01:00:16 Final Thoughts and Advice

01:03:05 End

Related Links:

Evan's CU Boulder web page and his personal web page and LinkedIn profile

2017 podcast episode with Evan and his blog post

Transcript

Geri: 00:00:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

: 00:00:08

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

: 00:00:12

others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

: 00:00:17

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

: 00:00:29

When I'm talking with PhD students or

early career researchers about their

: 00:00:34

career path, . There's one podcast

episode that I always point them to.

: 00:00:41

And that's my 2017

discussion with Evan Peck.

: 00:00:46

Evan had done his PhD at

Tufts university in the US.

: 00:00:51

And he ended up choosing a career

path at a liberal arts college

: 00:00:54

called Bucknell university.

: 00:00:57

Where he knew his passion

for teaching would be valued.

: 00:01:00

While still being able

to do some research.

: 00:01:05

And what was really impressive about

that episode was the very reflective

: 00:01:09

and strategic thinking that, that

Evan put into making that choice.

: 00:01:14

And the clarity in particular

that he had about his values.

: 00:01:19

And as he talked about in that

episode, a clarity about the

: 00:01:23

things that he takes joy in doing.

: 00:01:26

I love that.

: 00:01:28

So I was really curious then to see that

after nine years at Bucknell, Evan moved

: 00:01:33

to university of Colorado, Boulder.

: 00:01:36

So I wanted to understand how

he decided on this next move.

: 00:01:41

Particularly seeing that he'd said in

: 2017

: 00:01:46

for him to move to somewhere like

a research institution having chosen

: 00:01:51

Bucknell, just recognizing the trade

offs that all of our choices entail.

: 00:01:58

And so I'm really happy to bring this

follow-up conversation with Evan Peck.

: 00:02:02

Evan is now an associate professor and

also associate chair of undergraduate

: 00:02:06

studies, which won't surprise you

after listening to this episode in

: 00:02:10

the information science faculty at

university of Colorado, Boulder.

: 00:02:17

In this episode, he shares

how his career at Bucknell has

: 00:02:20

unfolded to get to this point.

: 00:02:24

And this is included things like

setting up an impactful jobs board

: 00:02:27

initiative as an advocate for

academic careers in art schools.

: 00:02:33

He talks about how he's research

interests evolve to focus more

: 00:02:36

around information visualization

and computing ethics education.

: 00:02:41

And also this growing feeling of

wanting to have more external impact

: 00:02:46

in computer science education.

: 00:02:49

That's sort of triggered some

of the, starting to look around.

: 00:02:54

And so the story of how he actually

ended up at CU Boulder is one of both,

: 00:02:58

some serendipity and also have some

very clear considerations of what was

: 00:03:04

important to him and his family and

what sort of impact he did want to have.

: 00:03:10

This episode will be joining my list

of recommendations to people about

: 00:03:15

making values led career choices.

: 00:03:18

Enjoy.

: 00:03:21

So great to have you again

on the podcast, Evan.

: 00:03:24

I'm really excited to talk to you

because we last spoke in May: 2017

: 00:03:32

I released the episode in August 2017.

: 00:03:37

My trigger for wanting to talk

to you again now is that you've

: 00:03:41

recently, or last year, you moved

to University of Colorado Boulder.

: 00:03:47

I'm really curious to understand the

thinking around that move, given how

: 00:03:51

much thought you put into the first move.

: 00:03:54

For context, Can you introduce

yourself a little bit to start with?

: 00:04:00

Evan: Yeah, so the last time when we,

you know, we did this last time, I

: 00:04:04

believe it was in Denver, Colorado,

: 00:04:06

Geri: Yeah, actually it was.

: 00:04:08

That was the conference.

: 00:04:09

Yeah,

: 00:04:10

Evan: so I was part of an

early career workshop there.

: 00:04:13

And it was really interesting kind

of looking back at that is as part of

: 00:04:16

that career workshop, we articulate

some of our goals and career goals.

: 00:04:20

And, you know, one of my career goals

was to, I think, make more visible

: 00:04:26

some of the kind of more diverse

academic paths and in particular at

: 00:04:30

that time, liberal arts colleges.

: 00:04:32

Geri: mm,

: 00:04:33

Evan: And, for context, in case folks

haven't heard that podcast or read

: 00:04:38

that blog post, you know, liberal arts

colleges are undergraduate institutions.

: 00:04:41

They tend to be smaller.

: 00:04:43

You have no PhD students.

: 00:04:45

You have smaller classes.

: 00:04:47

So there's a real sort of focus, a

heavier priority on teaching.

: 00:04:50

I would say on undergraduate mentorship.

: 00:04:53

We are the very often almost

Always the academic advisors of

: 00:04:57

our undergraduate students as well.

: 00:04:59

So there's a close relationship

between undergraduates, um, and faculty.

: 00:05:04

But also, there's still a

priority on scholarship.

: 00:05:08

So, you know, I was really drawn to

these institutions after graduate

: 00:05:12

school, because for me, they created

this really nice balance between teaching

: 00:05:17

and research, because I knew I was

going to invest in teaching, uh, but at

: 00:05:21

the same time, I didn't want to become

invisible in my scholarly community.

: 00:05:25

I still, you know, was really passionate

about human computer interaction,

: 00:05:29

increasingly about data visualization,

and I wanted the opportunity to

: 00:05:32

still be able to explore that space

and have impact in that space.

: 00:05:36

For me, there was this, you

know, very multidimensional

: 00:05:40

way of thinking about that.

: 00:05:41

You know, what's important to me.

: 00:05:42

What's important to me was, being valued

for teaching, uh, not feeling like my

: 00:05:47

investment into teaching would cause

problems for a tenure case, for example.

: 00:05:53

And, obviously there are family

dynamics, you know, where can we live?

: 00:05:56

Where can we afford?

: 00:05:57

What does the community look like?

: 00:05:59

What does the quality of life look like?

: 00:06:01

Uh, and for all those reasons,

uh, you know, I found these

: 00:06:04

institutions incredibly compelling.

: 00:06:06

And I, I still think that's the case.

: 00:06:08

Geri: mm.

: 00:06:10

And I remember running into you a

couple of years after that and we were

: 00:06:16

just saying it was probably in 2019.

: 00:06:19

And I do remember you saying

how you were really loving it,

: 00:06:22

and love the lifestyle there.

: 00:06:25

Evan: Yeah.

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And, it's really interesting.

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I think that actually

soon after that podcast.

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And between I wrote a blog, a whole blog

post kind of explaining my rationale

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for this between that blog post and the

podcast, you know, I started getting more

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and more emails from people looking to

go in the job market and wanting advice

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and how to even find these institutions.

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So it actually led me to develop this

at, at the time was a very ad hoc way

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of, um, looking at positions online

that were coming online and sort of

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making visible the ones that I felt like

aligned, with these similar priorities

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and balances of teaching and research.

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And, that whole thing is blown

out into a large job board.

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And, so it's really interesting to

just even reflect back and see how that

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was a catalyst, I think, going forward.

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Um, I think I said in that career

document I wrote for that, that I

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hoped to make these paths visible.

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And it was really kind of interesting

to read what I was hoping to do then.

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Some of it came into fruition.

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It was amazing.

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Geri: Yeah.

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That is amazing.

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So is the jobs board

still active, up to date,

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Evan: Yeah.

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So it used to be, it used to be because

basically what would happen is people

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would email me and they would say things

like, Oh, I find this really interesting.

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I'd like to explore this.

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I have no idea how to

find these institutions.

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But I realized how challenging it

could be if you didn't sort of, if you

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weren't there already, um, you didn't

know what sorts of things to look

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for in the job, job advertisements,

what kind of institutions, you

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know, what are the signals that

might suggest this kind of balance.

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Um, so it started out just me

looking at job boards every year

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and, I think the first time I made

it, it was a Twitter thread, and

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then it was a Medium blog post.

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Um, and then I turned it into a

website, and so, actually now it's

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at the point, thankfully, where

there are other people helping me.

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And also, we actually do very

little of looking around the

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job advertisement boards now.

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Now, for the most part, departments

come to us and post things.

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Geri: Brilliant.

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Evan: Yeah, so it's been wonderful.

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Geri: So one of your goals back in 17

about making more visible diverse academic

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paths, you can really do a tick on that.

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Doesn't mean a complete done tick,

but a big step in that direction

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then from the sounds of it.

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Evan: Yeah, and given how I think

nonlinear most of our careers are, it's

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very rare that you can, you know, say a

goal 5 to 7 years ago and then feel like

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Geri: Yeah.

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But probably just putting in a

series of potential job positions or

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colleges in a Twitter post didn't feel

like a big step in that direction.

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It's only in the looking back that

you can see actually it does really do

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that, the helping make that visible.

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Evan: Yeah, for sure.

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And I think that, I mean, it's one of

those things where I invest more when I

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see that people value it more, so, you

know, the Twitter post was because I

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wasn't going to build a website with

something that seemed, that's a lot of

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time to invest on something that seemed

like, I don't know how valuable it was,

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but, you know, a lot of people found that

really valuable and then started passing

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it along and, know, asking me for more.

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So, uh, you know, just slowly evolved.

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Geri: So that's interesting as well,

because one of the things that you

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really talked about, in both the

blog post that you wrote in 17 and

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our podcast conversation, was how

at the beginning you thought it was,

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Teaching schools or research schools.

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And it was one or the other.

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What are you hearing from the people

who are coming to you, asking for

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: 00:09:58

advice or information or pointers.

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: 00:10:01

What are the values that they're

looking for also somehow connect in that

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lovely middle that you've identified?

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Evan: Yeah.

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I mean, I think, I think for many people

it's, it's, it's often hard to articulate

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specifically what the values are.

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And maybe it's more I mean,

sometimes there's a clear desire for

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more teaching oriented positions,

a clear desire for more sort of

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mentorship with undergraduates.

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Other times, I think there is a desire

to be in academia, to be a professor, and

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realizing that maybe the environment I

just came out of, let's say a big, very

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research heavy institution, just seeing

that that, that isn't a good fit for me.

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Uh, so it's almost, I think it's

almost like discovering your values

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through counterexamples in some ways.

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Geri: Yeah,

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because you did reflect on both of

those points, both the you did not

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want to be putting in the hours that

you saw some people doing that you

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recognize they might have been happy

doing, but you didn't want to do that.

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As well as recognising that you

really valued teaching and loved

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that and wanted that valued.

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Evan: Yeah, and, you know, it was really

interesting re listening to myself

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from seven years ago, which is just a

horrifying exercise for any of us, I

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think, but, you know, I think it was true.

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I remember that first semester,

I mean, your first year

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teaching is Really difficult.

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You know, you're, especially with a

higher teaching load, you know, you're

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doing a bunch of new prep simultaneously.

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It's just exhausting.

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But I remember feeling at the time

that those hours did not feel nearly

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as exhausting as the same hours I was

putting in as at a PhD, you know, there

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was something, uh, I think we talked

about like the feedback loops or, or just,

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I think it was just being more aligned

with what I wanted to do at that time.

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Um, and it has a huge impact

on how burdensome a job feels.

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Geri: yes, yeah.

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And that's a lot of what the burnout

literature talks about too, that it's

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not just working hard or long, it's

that connection to, or disconnection

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to, what's important to you, what you

care about, or feeling like the works

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valued are important in some way.

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Evan: Yeah, exactly.

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Geri: Yeah.

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What else did you have on the

goals on your five to seven

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year goals on that document.

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I'm just curious.

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Evan: Yeah, there are a couple

of really interesting ones.

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Um, let's see here.

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I, I know that, yeah, so being an

advocate for academic careers in

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art schools was the, was a big one.

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Um, there was also thinking about, I

remember putting something about sort of

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broadening computer science to invite

a broader diversity also of students,

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but also Um, and I think this comes

from more of the HCI human computer

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interaction background, thinking about

how to integrate those perspectives

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and do a computer science department

that didn't have, you know, a lot of

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rich background in those perspectives.

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So I think broadening even the

view of what computer science

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could be was also in there.

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Um.

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And then, yeah, it's really interesting

to see, I also was talking about, at the

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time, I did my PhD at Tufts University,

I was working on, during my PhD, I

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did brain computer interfaces, and in

that document, I was writing about how

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do I, how do I be known for something

other than brain computer interfaces,

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Geri: Mm.

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Evan: You know, how do I pivot my research

so people don't just see me as the, I

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don't just get reviews for a hundred

brain computer interface papers, um,

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because I was getting more interested

in data visualization and broadly the

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impact of communicating data to wider

audiences at the time, but it was really

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hard to kind of shift that identity.

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Geri: Mm.

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Was it because you weren't in love

with brain computer interfaces as

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much as you thought you would be

and it was a practical job to get it

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done to completion for a thesis tick?

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Or what was the desire for a pivot?

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Evan: I think there are a couple things.

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I mean, there are certainly overlapping.

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I started getting involved in a couple

of projects during my PhD that were

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more related to data visualization.

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Um, I think there are a

lot of pieces going on.

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I mean, I think I started to have more

urgency in short term impact among,

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you know, people similar to the people I

lived among my my local communities, and

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I thought about brain computer interfaces.

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I mean, there are a couple of things.

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One is just very logistically.

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It's really challenging to do

with just undergraduate students.

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You really need that

sort of length of peachy.

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So there was logistical

challenges, practical challenges,

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but also, you know, I imagine.

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Okay, let's imagine my research

visions come to fruition.

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That's 20-30 years from now at the time.

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It, it felt like, and then it would

probably be accessible primarily

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to, you know, the top income earners

for another 20 years after that.

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And, and so it became a little

bit more detached, I think,

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from my values in research.

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Um, and as I began kind of like

doing a little bit more research in

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data visualization, I thought there

was a lot of opportunity there.

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It was an important moment, you know,

as, as we talk about things like

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misinformation, disinformation, more and

more, uh, we lean on data visualization

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as a very important mechanism to

communicate with the public, whether

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it's pandemics or climate change.

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And I thought that there were

and are clear shortfalls in the

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way we communicate these things to

everyday people, diverse communities

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with, you know, rich backgrounds,

but also, different technology

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access and educational background.

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And so to me, it was more

of where can I be impactful,

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impactful in the people around me.

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Um, and even that changed

over time, frankly.

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Um, you know, when I give talks,

I talk about, you know, it's

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really interesting looking at

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the 2016 election.

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The United States is a really

interesting moment because that's

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when we started, I think, publicly

talking about misinformation,

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disinformation, a lot more, um, and

sort of public conversations, you

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know, I mean, obviously, these scholars

have been talking about for forever,

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but that's really when I entered

the public sphere and I remember

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thinking, I could have this long,

rich career in data visualization.

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Uh, I could, you know, parade

around with papers and give talks

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and, I don't know, win best paper

awards and have this lauded career.

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And I was looking at those voting maps

in which, you know, where I lived before

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in Boston, looked the complete inverse

to where I lived currently in Lewisburg,

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Pennsylvania, in rural Pennsylvania.

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And, you know, it became clear to

me that, You know, this isn't some

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dramatic insight, but it's obvious

that people there see some kinds of

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information fundamentally differently.

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And yet all the research I had been

doing, and a lot of the research that

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comes out in this field comes from places

that have very different kind of like

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socioeconomic and political identities.

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Um, and so I began to have this kind

of scary thought that I could be

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well lauded in an academic community

and have zero impact in anyone

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that lived within 50 miles of me.

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Geri: Right.

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Oh.

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Wow.

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I see an interesting couple of red threads

there because having an impact matters

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to you and having that more immediate

feedback loop of the impact that you're

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having and whether that was from hearing

people saying the effort in the jobs

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board was valuable, which encourage

you to do more to also just recognizing

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that if you're going to do a work in

this data viz area, for example, who are

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you wanting to have impact on and for?

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And is it just for your CV

and for your best paper award?

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Or, do you actually really want to

have impact on the people around?

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You said that it's hard to do research

at a liberal arts college in, not, you

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didn't say it was hard to do research.

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: 00:18:39

You said you don't have PhD students.

306

: 00:18:42

And so, did that also factor in, like

BCI needed a much more sophisticated

307

: 00:18:50

resource set up to do research in that

area, apart from the impact issues?

308

: 00:18:55

And was this also, this pivot,

also a way of connecting to a topic

309

: 00:19:01

that was pragmatic in the people

that you could draw in to help you?

310

: 00:19:06

Evan: Yeah, I think so.

311

: 00:19:07

And I think, you know, I think that

I probably would have ended up there

312

: 00:19:12

anyways, but it was certainly a catalyst.

313

: 00:19:16

Um, it probably expedited that process.

314

: 00:19:19

You know, thinking about what can I think

the reality with most undergraduates

315

: 00:19:25

and most undergraduates, they want a

many undergraduates who are interested

316

: 00:19:28

in research, very few of them actually

want to do it for multiple years.

317

: 00:19:31

They're exploring their

own careers themselves.

318

: 00:19:33

They want to do research one summer

and then an internship next summer.

319

: 00:19:38

And so the reality is you have them

for three months, maybe six months.

320

: 00:19:42

And so you really have to think,

I think, really strategically

321

: 00:19:45

about, what is really beneficial

for them within that time.

322

: 00:19:49

I can't give them the

whole history of the field.

323

: 00:19:51

It's, you know, how do we,

um, look at projects that are

324

: 00:19:55

doable within that context.

325

: 00:19:57

And also how can I expose them to.

326

: 00:20:00

Even with I think something like

BCI work, I think part of my mission

327

: 00:20:04

and sort of broadening the scope of

how students think about computing.

328

: 00:20:09

know, if I think about ways

to chunk up some of that.

329

: 00:20:13

BCI work.

330

: 00:20:14

One way is okay, let's have

you focus on building a model.

331

: 00:20:17

But that's maybe that's not the

broader view of computer science

332

: 00:20:21

that I'm interested in the moment.

333

: 00:20:23

You know, I became increasingly interested

in the more the social intersections.

334

: 00:20:26

And so, not only am I personally

interested in this in my scholarship,

335

: 00:20:30

but how can then I help my students

see the way that, uh, technology

336

: 00:20:35

really deeply intersects with

their communities and their cultural

337

: 00:20:38

backgrounds and things like that.

338

: 00:20:41

Geri: Can I just reflect back to you

how amazing what you've just said is

339

: 00:20:48

because you did not talk about how

can I make best use of these students

340

: 00:20:52

in their three months, six months

working with me to advance my research

341

: 00:20:56

agenda and help me get my papers out.

342

: 00:20:59

It was all about how can I think

strategically about what's beneficial

343

: 00:21:05

to them, or how can I expose

them to new ideas or advances.

344

: 00:21:09

That's pretty amazing to have

that orientation to your students.

345

: 00:21:15

Evan: Yeah.

346

: 00:21:15

And I, I do think that maybe this is

one of those values that I think draws

347

: 00:21:21

people to these kinds of institutions.

348

: 00:21:23

I think there are a lot of like minded

people at these institutions in which.

349

: 00:21:30

You know, research with undergraduates

is seen as a teaching endeavor.

350

: 00:21:34

It's part of your research, but

it's really fundamentally seen as an

351

: 00:21:38

amplifier I think of these students.

352

: 00:21:41

Um, and in fact, I, I, I think there's

research that 1 of the most high impact

353

: 00:21:47

experiences that undergraduates can have

in terms of even things like retention

354

: 00:21:51

and feelings of belonging in a department.

355

: 00:21:54

Um, and so I think that sort of

view of research is different.

356

: 00:22:00

Um, but I also think that, I mean,

I think there are a lot of us who

357

: 00:22:05

sort of feel our long term impact is

probably through our students anyways

358

: 00:22:08

Geri: Yeah, yeah,

359

: 00:22:10

Evan: That's our amplifying impact.

360

: 00:22:12

Geri: yeah.

361

: 00:22:14

And you certainly sound like

you bring a lot of care to

362

: 00:22:18

how you engage with students.

363

: 00:22:20

So it sounds like you actually really

You enjoyed working at Bucknell and,

364

: 00:22:28

and also found ways to make it work as

well for the impacts that you wanted

365

: 00:22:33

to have and what you wanted to achieve.

366

: 00:22:35

And also the lifestyle that you wanted

to have in a small community area.

367

: 00:22:40

Can you talk about the,

the move to Colorado then?

368

: 00:22:44

Okay.

369

: 00:22:44

Evan: Yeah.

370

: 00:22:45

Yeah.

371

: 00:22:45

I'll start out by telling you what

did not motivate it because one

372

: 00:22:50

of my fears when I made this move

373

: 00:22:52

Geri: Mm mm

374

: 00:22:53

Evan: is that I have been so

vocal publicly for so long

375

: 00:22:57

about liberal arts colleges.

376

: 00:22:59

I was really concerned it'd be viewed

by a lot of people as sort of a,

377

: 00:23:04

Uh, I don't know, a rejection of

all the, you know, that something

378

: 00:23:08

had gone wrong in that space.

379

: 00:23:09

So it wasn't about moving away from a liberal arts college,

380

: 00:23:14

um, or a small college.

381

: 00:23:16

And I expect we'll get

there in a little bit.

382

: 00:23:19

But, um, in fact, when I was looking

around a little bit the second

383

: 00:23:23

time through, Colorado is the only

non, I would say the only research

384

: 00:23:29

institution I was looking at, um,

385

: 00:23:31

and it also wasn't the case

that I think the other one that

386

: 00:23:35

the other simple explanation.

387

: 00:23:37

I think that that people not hope for,

but it's easy to wrap your mind around.

388

: 00:23:42

It's, like, Oh, something horribly

wrong must have happened, right?

389

: 00:23:45

Um, you must have been part

of like a toxic environment.

390

: 00:23:49

None of that was true either.

391

: 00:23:50

Um, I had incredibly supportive

colleagues, especially, you know, being

392

: 00:23:54

in human computer interact, uh, in HCI.

393

: 00:23:56

That's not always the case in an

engineering college, but, you know,

394

: 00:23:59

I had incredible support from my

associate dean up to my dean, and so

395

: 00:24:03

that that also was not the case.

396

: 00:24:04

Geri: Yeah.

397

: 00:24:05

Evan: Um, I think the reality is

it's, it's not big, dramatic moments.

398

: 00:24:13

It's, I think, slow shifts.

399

: 00:24:16

It's really interesting, even, I

think this is something easy for

400

: 00:24:21

my students to reflect on, where

I ask them to think about who

401

: 00:24:24

they were five to seven years ago.

402

: 00:24:27

You know, and there's a reason

they would feel horrified

403

: 00:24:29

listening to, like, a podcast of

themselves five or seven years ago.

404

: 00:24:33

Right?

405

: 00:24:33

Because they shift, and they change.

406

: 00:24:35

I mean, they change more

dramatically than we probably do it.

407

: 00:24:38

But there are little shifts.

408

: 00:24:40

Um, you know, soon after, A number of

things, both personal and professional,

409

: 00:24:47

that shifted in slow, in tiny ways,

um, soon after our podcast, actually I

410

: 00:24:56

had, um, a really lovely undergraduate

student who worked with me one

411

: 00:25:01

summer, and, and she was helping

me actually recreate my HCI course.

412

: 00:25:07

She finished her part of the

job, like three weeks early.

413

: 00:25:10

So.

414

: 00:25:11

In sort of a what do what do I do?

415

: 00:25:14

I wasn't expecting this.

416

: 00:25:15

So we had her develop a new activity

for introductory computer science

417

: 00:25:19

class on responsible computing.

418

: 00:25:22

Um, the integrated programming

with sort of more responsible

419

: 00:25:25

computing social impact.

420

: 00:25:27

And that led to a years

long trajectory with me.

421

: 00:25:30

In which I became more and more interested

in integrating ethics and social impact

422

: 00:25:36

directly into computing curriculum.

423

: 00:25:39

And that's been an incredible

magnifier of my career.

424

: 00:25:41

We could spend entire podcasts on

that, but it also, I think, changed

425

: 00:25:44

a little bit how I, my own personal

mission in computing education.

426

: 00:25:51

Um,

427

: 00:25:55

you know, I did a lot of work in, in, in

changing core computer science courses

428

: 00:26:00

to integrate social responsibility

directly into their curriculum.

429

: 00:26:03

Geri: Mm.

430

: 00:26:05

Evan: And I've been fortunate

that that has amplified my career

431

: 00:26:08

in a number of different ways.

432

: 00:26:10

And, , a lot of folks have used that

material, but it also, I think that

433

: 00:26:15

when I zoomed out and started thinking

about this problem more deeply, and how

434

: 00:26:18

do we make computing a more responsible

and socially impactful discipline, I

435

: 00:26:24

think, yes, changing computer science

is necessary, but also, I think it means

436

: 00:26:32

that computer science can't do it alone.

437

: 00:26:35

You know, we really desperately

need these other disciplines

438

: 00:26:38

involved in this initiative and

the social sciences and humanities.

439

: 00:26:42

And so I became interested in.

440

: 00:26:45

You know, what are ways in which education

can serve a wider body of students?

441

: 00:26:50

How can we get students to talk

about artificial intelligence

442

: 00:26:53

without taking two calculus courses

in a linear algebra course first?

443

: 00:26:58

It's impacting their jobs.

444

: 00:26:59

It's going to impact their communities.

445

: 00:27:01

We need to give them avenues to do that.

446

: 00:27:04

Um, and you know, I think when you're

in a computer science department in

447

: 00:27:07

engineering college, I think that

philosophically everyone agrees, but

448

: 00:27:11

it's really hard to structurally pull off

that wider view at the same time, which

449

: 00:27:16

computer science departments are getting

crushed with enrollment and you're barely

450

: 00:27:19

able to hold down your core courses

and your fundamental goal is to be an

451

: 00:27:23

engineering computer science program.

452

: 00:27:27

So I think increasingly, I felt that

453

: 00:27:32

it was hard for me to have the larger

external impact in this space or to

454

: 00:27:38

explore different iterations of courses,

and so I think that that was just

455

: 00:27:42

little, you know, little friction points.

456

: 00:27:45

If I kind of pitch the same ideas to folks

at my institution, I think we'd all agree.

457

: 00:27:50

Right?

458

: 00:27:51

Um, so this wasn't people saying, Oh,

no, we don't believe in this vision.

459

: 00:27:56

But it's really challenging.

460

: 00:27:57

And so I think there's a little bit

of a tension also between do I want

461

: 00:28:01

my career to be focused on internal

impact versus external impact?

462

: 00:28:06

And what's the balance there?

463

: 00:28:08

Um, that's really challenging to

work out because I believe in both.

464

: 00:28:12

Um, so that that is certainly one piece.

465

: 00:28:16

Um.

466

: 00:28:17

And then I think that, you know, as

we were talking about on the data viz

467

: 00:28:21

research side, I think last time we met

in Glasgow, we were actually presenting a

468

: 00:28:27

best paper award that was really valuable.

469

: 00:28:28

Um, driven by myself and three

undergraduate students in which

470

: 00:28:32

they went and they did interviews

in rural Pennsylvania with people

471

: 00:28:36

and brought charts and graphs

to them and just talk to them.

472

: 00:28:39

And it really kind of pushed back

a little bit on really common ways

473

: 00:28:43

of conceptualizing or simplifying

visualization design , like simple rules.

474

: 00:28:50

We found that, for example, that people,

probably not surprisingly, but it

475

: 00:28:55

didn't matter how you designed a graph.

476

: 00:28:57

If people found personal resonance

with it, if they saw their community,

477

: 00:29:00

the reflective, they saw their own

personal issues reflected in the graph.

478

: 00:29:04

That's what drew their attention.

479

: 00:29:05

Geri: mm

480

: 00:29:06

Evan: Um, and so I think that partially

through the responsible computing

481

: 00:29:13

initiatives, which I think we're

getting increased external visibility

482

: 00:29:18

through, you know, that initiative and

trying to create data visualization

483

: 00:29:22

for a wider set of people and data

communication for wider set of people.

484

: 00:29:26

I began to feel like I could have a

stronger external voice, um, but it was

485

: 00:29:32

really, it was increasingly challenging

to negotiate that with, I think just

486

: 00:29:38

the kind of the structural realities

of being a computer science department

487

: 00:29:42

that's overloaded with students.

488

: 00:29:44

Um, and my core responsibility there is to

serve that department and that means, you

489

: 00:29:48

know, teaching a lot of core CS classes.

490

: 00:29:51

That means advising more and more students

every year because that's what's needed.

491

: 00:29:55

Um, and I didn't want to, I didn't

want to do badly at that job.

492

: 00:30:03

But that's one way to maintain that, I

493

: 00:30:05

Geri: mm.

494

: 00:30:06

Evan: External impact is you

sort of cut corners other places,

495

: 00:30:10

Geri: Yes.

496

: 00:30:11

Yeah.

497

: 00:30:11

Evan: I felt like that was the

core mission of the institution

498

: 00:30:13

that didn't settle with me.

499

: 00:30:15

So I began to feel those tensions.

500

: 00:30:17

I think more and more.

501

: 00:30:20

Personally, we began to feel

distance from family more and more.

502

: 00:30:23

We weren't near either of our families.

503

: 00:30:25

Um, because the Bucknall's rural

setting, you don't aren't an

504

: 00:30:29

easy access to an airport either.

505

: 00:30:32

So we began to feel that more.

506

: 00:30:34

And so it's just, it's an

accumulation of little things.

507

: 00:30:37

Um, my wife would be quick to

tell you that I have always

508

: 00:30:41

adored being near cities.

509

: 00:30:43

I think probably more

than the average person.

510

: 00:30:47

You know, I think a good way to

put it is that when you're an

511

: 00:30:51

assistant professor, you have this

when I wrote that document, right?

512

: 00:30:55

Tenure is sort of the

carrot in front of you.

513

: 00:30:57

It's this big benchmark.

514

: 00:30:59

Um, and a lot of your goals are oriented

to this really, substantial moment

515

: 00:31:04

in your life, which your institution

decides whether they keep you or not.

516

: 00:31:09

And then you pass that

you pass that hurdle.

517

: 00:31:11

And then you say, Oh, what, what are

the next 30 years of my life look like?

518

: 00:31:18

Geri: That's interesting.

519

: 00:31:19

That is a theme I hear quite

often with people that, in terms

520

: 00:31:23

of career transitions and really

important inflection points.

521

: 00:31:29

It's not just the getting tenure,

but it's what happens after tenure,

522

: 00:31:34

it's because it's that space to

go, Oh, now that I've done that,

523

: 00:31:39

what do I really want to work on?

524

: 00:31:41

Evan: Yeah.

525

: 00:31:41

And it was probably amplified

because, I celebrated with

526

: 00:31:44

my colleagues getting tenure.

527

: 00:31:45

And then three weeks later, the

world shut down with the pandemic.

528

: 00:31:48

Uh,

529

: 00:31:49

Geri: yeah,

530

: 00:31:50

Evan: So, you know, in terms of times in

which people get really reflective about

531

: 00:31:55

their careers and where they're headed.

532

: 00:31:56

I think that that was

certainly those two things

533

: 00:31:58

Geri: Oh, so that's

another little coincident.

534

: 00:32:01

Um, you know, you said the small

things that all just added up.

535

: 00:32:05

Evan: Yeah.

536

: 00:32:07

Geri: Can I just digress very quickly

for a tick, and I'm curious about

537

: 00:32:12

what were the criteria that you had to

measure against for your tenure case

538

: 00:32:20

Evan: I mean, excellence

in teaching is important.

539

: 00:32:22

Geri: a core thing?

540

: 00:32:24

Was it core, given the community,

Liberal Arts Community College?

541

: 00:32:29

Evan: I think that is common there.

542

: 00:32:30

I think maybe somewhat surprisingly

to some people, I would say the main

543

: 00:32:34

anxiety that most faculty feel is

actually still around the research

544

: 00:32:38

side, because there's still expected

publications and engagement with research.

545

: 00:32:43

At most liberal arts colleges, there's

not an expectation for grants, although

546

: 00:32:47

that's external funding, although

that's considered a bonus and nice

547

: 00:32:50

to see as just like more evidence.

548

: 00:32:54

Yeah, there was an expectation of

an engagement of engagement there.

549

: 00:32:57

And scholarly productivity, certainly.

550

: 00:33:00

Um, and that varies dramatically,

I would say, between liberal arts

551

: 00:33:03

institutions, um, partially depending

on how low or high your teaching

552

: 00:33:07

load is and the institutional

resources and things like that.

553

: 00:33:11

Geri: Were you stressed about it at all,

or was it just a process to go through?

554

: 00:33:17

Evan: I probably was less

so than most faculty.

555

: 00:33:20

I had had some.

556

: 00:33:23

Um, I think some scholarly

wins that I think made me feel,

557

: 00:33:28

I think, pretty comfortable.

558

: 00:33:30

Um, certainly that, that paper

and that, that paper at CHI, that

559

: 00:33:34

one year won a best paper award

with undergraduate students.

560

: 00:33:37

And so it just felt like a kind

of a check mark on that side.

561

: 00:33:41

Um, so I was really fortunate to

not feel the same kind of stress

562

: 00:33:46

that I think is more common.

563

: 00:33:48

Geri: Hmm.

564

: 00:33:50

So you get your tenure, and I

know as you said, a little while

565

: 00:33:53

after, the world shuts down.

566

: 00:33:55

And, if I go back to your 2017 blog

post, like your data visualization

567

: 00:34:01

is a lovely strong thread, because

even in this blog post, you've got

568

: 00:34:05

all these lovely visualizations

of your hand drawn sort of things.

569

: 00:34:09

So one of the things that you have

there is a bit of a mind map or

570

: 00:34:13

whatever of all of the questions and

criteria you were asking yourself in

571

: 00:34:17

considering about a next career step.

572

: 00:34:20

What did you do post tenure then

in terms of that sort of reflective

573

: 00:34:26

process or working out what the criteria

for, because it feels like a lot of

574

: 00:34:32

these little small things were coming

together to just say it might be

575

: 00:34:36

time to start looking somewhere else.

576

: 00:34:39

Um,

577

: 00:34:40

Evan: Yeah And I would say another thing

that that helped transition those into

578

: 00:34:44

maybes into a little bit more action

was, I think the last time we on the

579

: 00:34:50

podcast, I had a, I don't know, a five

year old son and a one year old daughter.

580

: 00:34:55

And now I had a son that was

getting close to middle school age

581

: 00:34:58

and, I had a daughter that was

about to enter elementary school.

582

: 00:35:02

And, In talking to my wife, you know,

it was really important to us to not,

583

: 00:35:07

like for us, we didn't want to do a big

transition if ever happened in the future.

584

: 00:35:11

We didn't want to do it while they

were partway through middle school

585

: 00:35:14

or partway through high school.

586

: 00:35:16

Um, so it actually felt like there was

a little bit of a, at least for us, a

587

: 00:35:20

little bit of a ticking clock of, well,

if we explore this, maybe now is actually

588

: 00:35:25

the moment in which we do explore it.

589

: 00:35:28

Geri: So actually lots of things

came together in an interesting way.

590

: 00:35:32

Evan: Yeah, yeah.

591

: 00:35:34

Yeah, it was a convergence and, I

think that we went into that

592

: 00:35:36

process, um, very open to the idea

and actually probably expecting

593

: 00:35:42

that we would stay where we were.

594

: 00:35:45

I think there were a

lot of reasons to stay.

595

: 00:35:46

We had an incredibly lovely

community, um, a good institution.

596

: 00:35:51

I have wonderful colleagues.

597

: 00:35:52

Um, but you know, I think it was important

for me increasingly to, you know, you

598

: 00:35:59

get those, those grasses, greener itches.

599

: 00:36:02

Geri: Um,

600

: 00:36:04

Evan: And I was like, I need to

make sure the grass isn't greener.

601

: 00:36:08

Although it's interesting, you know,

one of my good friends, at the time

602

: 00:36:11

he said to me something which I think

was very true and actually helped

603

: 00:36:15

inform the way I thought about it.

604

: 00:36:16

He said, you know, it's probably

unlikely the grass is greener.

605

: 00:36:20

Anywhere.

606

: 00:36:21

So you probably want to just see

if you like the color better.

607

: 00:36:26

Geri: The different sort of green rather

608

: 00:36:28

Evan: Yeah,

609

: 00:36:29

Geri: than or whatever green.

610

: 00:36:32

Yeah.

611

: 00:36:35

Yeah.

612

: 00:36:36

But it is just, I don't know that having

the wherewithal to even recognize that

613

: 00:36:41

there's this little bit of a, um, um, you

know, um, there's more you want to do,

614

: 00:36:46

and also the timing and the opportunity.

615

: 00:36:49

Evan: Yeah.

616

: 00:36:49

I think it's hard to tease out what

is factors of my, you know, what will

617

: 00:36:54

change with my environment changes

versus, you know, maybe there's

618

: 00:36:58

just work I need to do to make sure

I'm happier, you know, more content.

619

: 00:37:02

Geri: Yeah,

620

: 00:37:03

Evan: You know, it reminds me of like

being in relationships, you know,

621

: 00:37:06

sometimes where you know, is this a

me problem or is this an us problem?

622

: 00:37:11

Geri: yes, yeah.

623

: 00:37:16

So, you started then actively

looking or just keeping an

624

: 00:37:21

eye or what happened next?

625

: 00:37:23

Evan: I decided I went on sabbatical.

626

: 00:37:25

I did sabbatical with the MIT

visualization group at MIT.

627

: 00:37:29

Um, and I think after that, I decided

to at least, you know, this is the time

628

: 00:37:33

to kind of maybe at least look around to

629

: 00:37:36

Geri: And you got your city fix again.

630

: 00:37:38

Evan: Yeah.

631

: 00:37:41

Um, And, uh, we had sort of a

checklist, you know, it wouldn't,

632

: 00:37:48

you know, we're generally happy.

633

: 00:37:49

It wouldn't be worth moving unless right.

634

: 00:37:52

So, like, it wouldn't be worth moving

unless we're no further away from family.

635

: 00:37:57

It wouldn't be worth moving unless

it was in a place that had, let's

636

: 00:38:00

say, better access to airports or,

or, you know, suburban or urban

637

: 00:38:03

environments or things like that.

638

: 00:38:06

Um, it wouldn't be worth moving

unless we felt like it was a

639

: 00:38:09

significant professional change.

640

: 00:38:11

I think that's partly why we thought

we might stay because, you know, it's

641

: 00:38:14

hard to check off a lot of these boxes.

642

: 00:38:16

Um, but I had a huge benefit of

that, you know, because I've been

643

: 00:38:20

plugged into these community, you

know, you have a lot of benefits

644

: 00:38:23

after being in academia for a while.

645

: 00:38:25

You kind of know about a lot of

institutions, you know, people there

646

: 00:38:28

and you have a much, I think, stronger

sense of not only places that you

647

: 00:38:32

would value, but also places that

you think would value you as well.

648

: 00:38:37

Um, so we started out very, very

highly selective search process.

649

: 00:38:43

Um, you know, four or five institutions

that I was curious about and almost

650

: 00:38:48

all of them were liberal arts colleges

and some teaching track colleges even.

651

: 00:38:52

I didn't want to limit it to

a particular kind of position.

652

: 00:38:57

Um, I thought, frankly, if you'd asked

me at the beginning, I thought I would

653

: 00:39:01

end up at another liberal arts college,

possibly just in a different location

654

: 00:39:06

with a slightly different emphasis that

might allow me to pursue the social

655

: 00:39:10

context of computing a little bit more.

656

: 00:39:12

Um, that's probably what

I would have guessed.

657

: 00:39:15

Geri: So you weren't, you weren't

aiming necessarily to move into

658

: 00:39:21

a research intensive institution

659

: 00:39:24

Evan: No, and in fact, I can tell you at

that time, because I'd been at a liberal

660

: 00:39:28

arts college, and because I hadn't

pursued a lot of external funding, I

661

: 00:39:33

didn't think that was a viable option.

662

: 00:39:35

Geri: Right.

663

: 00:39:36

Because I remember you saying in 17

that you thought that that could be

664

: 00:39:40

one of the, you know, there are always

trade offs to any decision and one of

665

: 00:39:43

the trade offs in going to a liberal

arts may be that it's harder to move

666

: 00:39:49

then into research institution.

667

: 00:39:52

Evan: And in part, particularly because I

had already, I was tenured, and I didn't

668

: 00:39:57

want to reset that clock, um, and go

back to being untenured somewhere and go

669

: 00:40:02

through that whole thing all over again.

670

: 00:40:04

So I think it probably would have been

easier to, to conceptualize if I was

671

: 00:40:09

willing to kind of concede that, um.

672

: 00:40:11

But because I wasn't, I actually

didn't really have it on the radar.

673

: 00:40:16

Um, I was interested, I think there are

now, you know, very different from last

674

: 00:40:20

time actually, now there are dedicated

teaching track positions at universities

675

: 00:40:24

that are much more compelling now than

they were the first time we talked.

676

: 00:40:28

Particularly in computer science,

I think the pay has gotten better.

677

: 00:40:31

The opportunities for

scholarship has gotten better.

678

: 00:40:34

The teaching load has gotten better.

679

: 00:40:35

And so I actually, you know, I was

open to some teaching track positions.

680

: 00:40:39

Um, and, you know, incredible

happenstance, I was talking to.

681

: 00:40:46

You know, a colleague at C.U.

682

: 00:40:49

Boulder, because I was even open

to, you know, if I'm going to just

683

: 00:40:51

explore my career options, I'd like to

just explore what else is out there.

684

: 00:40:55

So I was talking to a colleague, not

thinking about them as a destination,

685

: 00:40:59

because I didn't think that was

viable, because we had similar

686

: 00:41:02

interests, basically saying, hey,

you're pretty plugged into what's

687

: 00:41:05

going on in the industry, if

you see something really cool and

688

: 00:41:07

interesting, just pass it along my way.

689

: 00:41:12

What

690

: 00:41:12

Geri: In industry.

691

: 00:41:14

So you were even looking at industry

692

: 00:41:16

Evan: I probably not, but I was, you

know, I was curious, yeah, there's

693

: 00:41:19

interesting things along the lines, you

know, if, if it checked those boxes of,

694

: 00:41:23

you know, allowed me to, especially cause

I think there are some more educational

695

: 00:41:27

interesting, there's some like, Apple

has some interesting educational

696

: 00:41:31

initiatives and Microsoft had, so I

could imagine myself maybe being in a

697

: 00:41:35

place like that where you get to these

companies that are, you know, molding

698

: 00:41:40

a little bit of technical education.

699

: 00:41:41

And if you could have a voice in

that would be really interesting

700

: 00:41:44

and compelling space too.

701

: 00:41:46

Um, so I think educational

mission was a big.

702

: 00:41:49

A big thing too.

703

: 00:41:50

So, you know, I, I was looking

at, you know, the Bard's college,

704

: 00:41:53

they've had really interesting,

unique educational missions.

705

: 00:41:57

A couple of teaching track

places that really interesting,

706

: 00:41:59

unique educational missions.

707

: 00:42:01

So I asked his colleague this and,

um, what I didn't, I really realize

708

: 00:42:07

is, they really needed a visualization

person in their department.

709

: 00:42:12

Um, I think their department, I guess

I can say we are a department now, but

710

: 00:42:17

at the time it was their department

that I think values teaching pretty

711

: 00:42:22

heavily I think for a traditional

research department, um, they're

712

: 00:42:26

folks I'd intersected with for years.

713

: 00:42:29

And so I mean, the, the, the big

curve ball in my process was, they

714

: 00:42:33

reached out to me, um, and they

made the pitch to me initially.

715

: 00:42:39

Geri: Mm

716

: 00:42:39

Evan: And so it was not something

that I could have ever predicted, and

717

: 00:42:43

this is where my, my, my wife's entire

family's from is from the Denver area.

718

: 00:42:48

It was just a wild set of circumstances

and, you know, the shift from being an

719

: 00:42:53

information science department in which

you aren't beholden to the calculus pre

720

: 00:42:57

reqs or, you know, the physics pre reqs,

but you can really sort of envision.

721

: 00:43:02

And be with a group of people that I

think their core value is to envision

722

: 00:43:06

what is an ethical social, what

is an ethical future of computing?

723

: 00:43:10

And how does that intersect with

kind of our social communities.

724

: 00:43:13

And having people i, you know,

seen it from a distance just do

725

: 00:43:16

incredibly inspiring scholarship

in this space for years.

726

: 00:43:21

And then I think seeing how they

value the undergraduate educational

727

: 00:43:24

experience, and finding out that,

you know, what my scholarship and my

728

: 00:43:29

work could be translated there and I

could shift over there with tenure.

729

: 00:43:33

So it

730

: 00:43:33

Geri: mm

731

: 00:43:34

Evan: you know, I think the surprising

thing to most people is that in the end,

732

: 00:43:38

I was debating between an offer between

a teaching track position, a liberal

733

: 00:43:41

arts college and a research institution.

734

: 00:43:44

Um, and they are so structurally,

they are so radically different.

735

: 00:43:50

But, when I measure them against

the things that I was valuing,

736

: 00:43:54

they were the three most compelling

places to me, despite those

737

: 00:43:59

dramatic structural differences.

738

: 00:44:01

Geri: Yeah.

739

: 00:44:02

Yeah.

740

: 00:44:04

Wow.

741

: 00:44:05

I love the, you said about happenstance

and that again, like that's a story

742

: 00:44:10

I just hear so often about, you just

never know and just making needs known.

743

: 00:44:18

That sounds amazing, the way it's

worked out and connected to both the

744

: 00:44:24

pivot that you're making in the, data

visualization and the way that you

745

: 00:44:30

want to play it out, as well as that

really strong emphasis still on valuing

746

: 00:44:35

education and being able to have that

broader impact that you want to have.

747

: 00:44:39

Evan: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

748

: 00:44:40

And I'm now the associate chair of

undergraduate studies in the department,

749

: 00:44:43

so it's it's a really a continuity.

750

: 00:44:45

I don't, I mean, there are things

about my job that are very different,

751

: 00:44:48

but a lot of I think the things I

care about, they're still very clear

752

: 00:44:52

threads from my prior institution.

753

: 00:44:55

So that's why.

754

: 00:44:56

Geri: Did you volunteer for that role?

755

: 00:45:00

Evan: They asked me if I'd be interested

in it, not during the job hunt, but

756

: 00:45:04

I sort of suspect that was maybe like

an undercurrent of maybe why um, uh,

757

: 00:45:11

Geri: Because you've always been clear

you've had a passion for computing

758

: 00:45:15

science education or education.

759

: 00:45:18

Evan: yeah, and, and I, I love

the vision of the department, you

760

: 00:45:21

know, I love, um, it's really.

761

: 00:45:26

Interesting to be in a department in

which we have very few to no pre reqs

762

: 00:45:30

in most of these courses, so if you

are a student in a different field and

763

: 00:45:34

you want to get that access to AI or

machine learning, and you don't want to

764

: 00:45:39

compete with the computer science students

or take all these technical courses

765

: 00:45:42

first, um, we are the avenue for that.

766

: 00:45:45

And I've said that I find also

it really compelling being in

767

: 00:45:49

a public state institution.

768

: 00:45:52

I think there is an inherent

public mission to these institutions

769

: 00:45:56

that I find really compelling.

770

: 00:45:57

Um, that doesn't mean that they have

less problems in other institutions.

771

: 00:46:01

That's that's for sure.

772

: 00:46:02

But I, I find that the core mission of the

institution is to serve, you know, all the

773

: 00:46:06

people in Colorado is really a compelling

educational mission for me as well.

774

: 00:46:11

Um, so I find that really interesting.

775

: 00:46:14

Geri: um, that also sounds very

inclusive when it's information

776

: 00:46:17

science and you have the ability to

take in people from diverse backgrounds.

777

: 00:46:23

Which also means it goes to that, um,

expanding the impact on different ways

778

: 00:46:29

of thinking or people with different

backgrounds as well and where they

779

: 00:46:32

might then go off to afterwards.

780

: 00:46:34

Evan: Yeah, I think it's really

interesting being able to.

781

: 00:46:39

I think have a curriculum that can

serve a student body that isn't going to

782

: 00:46:43

necessarily end up in software development

783

: 00:46:45

Geri: mm, mm,

784

: 00:46:46

Evan: engineering positions, but I don't

know, they could end up in tech policy.

785

: 00:46:51

They could end up in, you

know, just, I don't know.

786

: 00:46:53

We've folks from psychology are

taking our courses and folks from.

787

: 00:46:57

You're interested in climate change,

taking our courses and folks that

788

: 00:47:01

are interested in more community

organizations, taking our courses.

789

: 00:47:04

And I think to me, that's a really

interesting vision of computing.

790

: 00:47:07

Um, because yes, it has.

791

: 00:47:09

I think the change has to happen

in computer science, but, um,

792

: 00:47:12

it has to happen on both sides.

793

: 00:47:13

Geri: Yeah.

794

: 00:47:14

And that, as you said, that

sort of impact, the broadening

795

: 00:47:18

out is really valuable.

796

: 00:47:20

Like, , Engaging more and more people

with notions of responsible thinking

797

: 00:47:24

around these new technologies.

798

: 00:47:26

What have been some of the biggest

differences for you in like moving from

799

: 00:47:32

one institution to the other in your

role, because you're still ostensibly

800

: 00:47:38

an associate professor in each place.

801

: 00:47:40

Um, and I know that the one's

a computer science, one's an

802

: 00:47:43

information science, but what are

the other sort of key differences?

803

: 00:47:49

Evan: There's the, there's the big and

obvious ones, which is, so having,

804

: 00:47:52

you know, PhD students and master's

students and, having a research lab.

805

: 00:47:56

I mean, I had a, an undergraduate research

lab, but it's a different sort of, it's

806

: 00:47:59

a different flavor of research, I think,

and thinking about mentorship on the scale

807

: 00:48:04

of five years instead of five months, I

808

: 00:48:06

Geri: I was just going to say it's the

time scale in particular, isn't it?

809

: 00:48:09

Because you just said three to six

months for your undergraduates.

810

: 00:48:13

Evan: Yeah.

811

: 00:48:13

And really thinking about.

812

: 00:48:15

You know how difficult that journey

is for many graduate students

813

: 00:48:18

and how dramatically advisor

relationships impacts that journey.

814

: 00:48:23

Um, so , that's a pretty significant,

I think, shift and, uh, you

815

: 00:48:27

know, responsibility in a whole

different direction, I think.

816

: 00:48:31

Um, thinking about, you know, how do

817

: 00:48:32

Geri: How are you engaging in that?

818

: 00:48:34

Like, are there courses to take or are you

reading books or, talking to colleagues?

819

: 00:48:39

Like, how are you?

820

: 00:48:42

Evan: definitely talking

a lot to colleagues.

821

: 00:48:44

you know, one thing

that I think is really..

822

: 00:48:48

I think there have been some folks

who've been really thoughtful

823

: 00:48:51

and, uh, particularly in HCI.

824

: 00:48:53

There are a lot of people who write

a lot of really detailed almost

825

: 00:48:57

lab manuals for their labs now.

826

: 00:48:59

But it gets across not only the,

you know, what we do here, but it's

827

: 00:49:02

sort of our values and our vision

and things like work life balance.

828

: 00:49:07

And I think there's been a real

recent shift where I think there are

829

: 00:49:10

a lot of advisors being really much

more direct and talking about these

830

: 00:49:14

things out in the open and in public.

831

: 00:49:15

So part of it's really, I

think, learning from them.

832

: 00:49:18

There's a shred of it of, you

know, based on, my own experience

833

: 00:49:22

and colleagues around me.

834

: 00:49:24

I try not to extrapolate that too much.

835

: 00:49:28

Understanding our own

experiences, our own experience.

836

: 00:49:31

Uh,

837

: 00:49:32

Geri: Yeah.

838

: 00:49:32

Evan: can certainly resonate with,

you know, graduate school is long.

839

: 00:49:36

And it's, it's probably unlikely you're

going to feel great during all of it.

840

: 00:49:39

And it's unlikely that you're

feeling productive during all of it.

841

: 00:49:45

Geri: If only.

842

: 00:49:46

Evan: I know

843

: 00:49:47

Geri: I know that would

be an unrealistic world.

844

: 00:49:50

But have there been any

particular challenges?

845

: 00:49:55

Evan: I'd say, I mean, it's it's

an entirely different context.

846

: 00:49:59

I mean, this, the scale is for

every 1 student at Bucknell.

847

: 00:50:03

There are 10 students in Boulder

848

: 00:50:04

Geri: Mm hmm.

849

: 00:50:05

Evan: Um, so you're talking about

you know, an institution of, you

850

: 00:50:08

know, 3000 to more than 30, 000.

851

: 00:50:11

And that brings opportunities that's

why an information science department

852

: 00:50:16

can exist because of that scale.

853

: 00:50:18

Um, it'd probably be hard to create

something that a tiny institution

854

: 00:50:22

because you already have computer

science and things like that.

855

: 00:50:25

And so it gives space for that.

856

: 00:50:27

But it's also, I mean, there is some

real benefit to tiny institutions and

857

: 00:50:32

that you necessarily bump into and

our own community with people from

858

: 00:50:37

all kinds of disciplines because yeah.

859

: 00:50:40

Those are just the people around you.

860

: 00:50:42

I think, I mean, there's certainly

departmental silos in liberal

861

: 00:50:45

arts institutions, but almost

Episode 8

11th Dec 2024

Evan Peck on considered choices and career moves: from liberals arts to a research uni (CAL114, S6E8)

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Geraldine Fitzpatrick