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Episode 7

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Published on:

25th Oct 2023

Irina Shklovski (Part 1) on Burning Out

Professor Irina Shklovski, University of Copenhagen, has a powerful story to tell about her burn-out experiences.  In Part 1 she talks about how she got there, having an amazingly supportive department and colleagues, and how her body tells her when to stop. Implicated in this are issues such as being across two departments, defining her scholarship, starting a new uni during COVID, the downside of getting grants and what it’s like getting to the point of not being able to function and having to ask for help. 

Apologies for missing music - trying to get that sorted!

Overview:

[00:29] Episode introduction

[01:58] Navigating two departments…during COVID

[10:32] Deciding for CS, being uncomfortable, having impact 

[24:25] Journey to burnout

[29:35] Making the call for help

[38:45] How her body tells her when to stop

[42:32] Wrapping up

[45:17] End 

Click here for a walk-through transcript

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This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy
Transcript
Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

:

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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:

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

:

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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:

Irina: if you try to do

everything, you will break.

6

:

Geri: That's the voice of Irina Shklovski.

7

:

And Irina did try to do

everything and she did break.

8

:

Irina is a professor at the

university of Copenhagen in Denmark.

9

:

And she shares with us, her

really powerful and moving story

10

:

about her burnout experiences.

11

:

In part one here, she talks

about how she got there.

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And having amazingly supportive

department and colleagues that

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:

caught her, when she did break.

14

:

Tied up in that journey to

burn out is a range of issues.

15

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Trying to straddle two departments.

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Working out how she defines

her scholarship . Starting

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at a new uni during COVID.

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The downside of the

upside of getting grants.

19

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And what it's like getting to

the point of not being able to

20

:

function and having to ask for help.

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Irina: I said, Kasper, I'm in trouble.

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:

I, I don't think I can do this.

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I'm, I'm too tired.

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I, I can no longer think straight.

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I can no longer contribute.

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I, I'm just in a fog.

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Geri: There are so many lessons

here for all of us, and I'm really

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grateful to Irina for her vulnerability

and honesty in this discussion.

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Irina: My name is Irina Shklovsky.

30

:

I'm at the University of Copenhagen,

in the Department of Computer

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:

Science, and a little bit in

the Department of Communication.

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:

[So split departments?] Well, it

used to be 50 50, now it's 80 20.

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But then, since I can't settle

down, I decided it would be

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great to have a 20 percent guest

appointment at Linköping University

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in the Gender Studies Department.

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So, starting in September,

I'll be 60 20 20.

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I collect them.

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Geri: How do you manage that?

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to ensure that you are 60 20 20?

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Because I imagine a risk is that

everyone, even though you're only

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20, by the time you go to a faculty

meeting there you've used up your 20 but

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people still expect work or whatever.

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How do you manage it?

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Irina: It's not possible to manage it.

45

:

So I know I'm signing up

for more work overall.

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I think the Linköping

position because it is...

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Geographically separated and because

there are, um, I have committed to

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spending four weeks a year inland

tripping, so geographically and

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Temporally, that is very circumscribed.

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I'm hoping that I can then basically

allocate just a couple of hours.

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a week, outside of that, for all

of my Linköping related issues.

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However, given the fact that I will

have, I'll be the primary advisor of a

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PhD student there, and a primary advisor

for postdoc there, that is likely going

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to become a challenge at some point.

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But actually split positions

are very difficult.

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I struggled a lot.

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I started my position as 50 50 in

communication and computer science

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at the University of Copenhagen.

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Um, compounded by the fact that I started

one week before the first COVID lockdown.

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So that was exciting.

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And the goal was the reason for

my position was to bring more

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collaborative capacity and activity

across the two departments.

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:

None of which happened because for the

first year I didn't really meet anybody.

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[Of course.] Because I started and about

10 days later everything locked down.

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I didn't really even have an

office in computer science yet.

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So I met people on Zoom.

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But that turns out to be quite

difficult to really do anything with.

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Geri: When you don't have an existing

relationship, especially I imagine.

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Irina: Yeah, absolutely.

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So I struggled for a while and then,

and the intention was, that the first

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semester when I started I wasn't teaching,

I was going to spend, I expected myself

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to spend a lot of time having coffees

and getting to know people and going

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to meetings and just kind of finding

out what the departments were like.

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Instead, I spent that time

homeschooling my child.

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And like everybody else, being locked down

and figuring out what the hell's going on.

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And then in the fall, my second

semester, I started teaching.

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Again, it was COVID.

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It was.

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At least in Denmark, it was

partial lockdown, so it's not

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like a lot of people were there.

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Everybody was wearing masks.

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You couldn't really meet

people all that well anyway.

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So, yeah.

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After a while, I asked my, both of my

heads of department, like, what do I do?

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And they said, look, we're not

expecting anything at this point.

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Just figure something out.

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Um, so yeah, that's

essentially what I did.

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I sort of bummed along and...

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And I realized that being half

and half in two very, very, very

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different parts of the university.

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[Do you mean physically?]

Well, also physically.

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[Okay].

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So the two departments are

separate physically, it's a 30

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minute bike ride between the two.

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Um, they're in two different faculties

that have different rules, different

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norms, different expectations.

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It's kind of like being in two

different universities at the same time.

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And I realized it just wasn't

working for me, because when you're

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new, when you're starting someplace

new, you can't be halfway there.

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It's when all the meetings are important.

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You can't choose.

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You actually have to show up to all

the faculty meetings, and the section

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meetings, and the research meetings.

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And, because it's the only way to build

a relationship and create a presence.

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Um, and if you're doing it

in two departments, that's

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a hell of a lot of meetings.

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[That's a lot of meetings].

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And at the same time, you're meeting

people who also want to grab a

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coffee, who want to get to know you.

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Again, that's a lot of meetings.

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Two departments worth of people,

and two very large departments

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worth of people, that's a lot.

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And so it's actually impossible.

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It is impossible to feel like you

have arrived in both departments.

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And COVID of course

made it more difficult.

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So after about A year and a half I

started feeling like I understood how

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the computer science department worked.

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And I still felt like I had no idea how

the communications department worked.

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Geri: Did you have a physical

office by that stage?

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And did you have an

office in both locations?

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Irina: Let me tell you, having two

different offices is not a gift.

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I had to create a system to keep

track of where my books are.

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Which office they're in.

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Because otherwise I kept losing them.

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And forgetting.

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And because the offices

are quite far apart.

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It's uh, it's a challenge.

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Geri: You're not just dropping in

next door to have a quick check.

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Irina: No, not at all.

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So, so that has been,

that has been interesting.

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And so I actually realized that I needed

to reduce my position in communications.

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To something much smaller.

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So that I didn't feel the pressure

of needing to become, a solid part

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of that department, without really

having the capacity to do that.

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Um, and now, as I dropped it to

20%, it now feels like I am spending

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just 20 percent of my time there.

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Because I'm like, okay,

I'm there once a week.

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[For a whole day?] Usually for a day.

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But it's okay.

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Because I'm there once a week, I'm part

of a center, we have a meeting, and

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it's much better because at least I feel

like I'm I'm doing those 20 percent of

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my presence there is kind of engaged.

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Um 50 50 is incredibly

difficult to figure out.

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Especially if it's a new institution.

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Geri: But are you still expected

to go to all the meetings?

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Or do you just really just

engage with the center?

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Irina: From the start I said, look, I'm

not going to go to all the meetings.

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And then I realized that

was actually not possible.

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If I wanted to become

part of the department.

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Um, so now I have to choose.

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And so, I've still, I've decided that

I want to become a stronger and more

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central part of computer science,

and I'm going to focus on that.

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And I will spend less time,

um, on communication for now.

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And it's a choice, but I had to make a

very distinct choice because otherwise,

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you end up with feeling like you need

to be part of it, to perform that.

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And nobody can tell you what that needs

to look like, but everybody kind of

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expects you to know how a department

works, and who is there, and what they do.

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But that takes enormous

amounts of time to figure out.

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Geri: Even when you're full

time, an enormous amount of time.

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Irina: And so I had to actually

accept the fact that I cannot

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fulfill the original goal.

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For what I was hired for, and then

I needed to give myself time and

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space to provide myself a basis

from which to begin building that.

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But it wasn't something that

I could build off the bat.

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Of course, COVID didn't help.

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Hmm.

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Yeah.

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Geri: How did you decide for

computer science and not comms?

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Irina: I think for a long time, when

I did my PhD, I was really, I was in

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Human Computer Interaction Institute

at Carnegie Mellon University,

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which is part of computer science.

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And I remember being so extremely

frustrated with feeling, always

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feeling like the social science

and more humanities work I did

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was seen as something extra and

not interesting and not important.

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Or needing to provide something usable for

computer science and otherwise not valued.

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And so for a while there, I shifted and

I moved much more towards communications

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and social sciences and more humanities

and spent some time, uh, you know,

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building relationships with people in STS.

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And developing, I think, a

sort of a critical tool set.

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But more recently, my work has turned

around and I realized that what I have...

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At least in what I want to do, it

may be far more effective in computer

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science than in communication.

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Because what I want to do is actually

take that critical tool set and move

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it towards the technical practice.

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That I love critique, and I think

looking critically at technology

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and its impacts on society, and what

happens and how we do things, and why,

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and what are the power relationships

and the institutional configurations,

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I think it's really important.

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But I'm much, much more bothered

by how the hell do we change that.

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I'm much, much more

bothered by the so what.

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And by why have we ended up here?

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And how do we do something differently?

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And for that, I need to

speak to computer science.

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And an only way to speak to

computer science is to be part

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of it and to understand it well.

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Um, because otherwise

critique is just critique.

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Nobody wants to be just critiqued

and be told that they're wrong.

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Geri: So that's been the journey.

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What was your undergraduate degree?

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Just curious.

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Irina: I have two bachelors in

psychology and an art history and

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I have a minor in mathematics.

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[Laughter]

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And I almost had enough credits

to do a minor in computer science,

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but I never got around to it.

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I got distracted by skiing.

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Geri: So really interesting mixed

background, I'm curious about

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the journey from more criticality

to more impact and the so what?

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Can you say any more about that?

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Like, was there a time when you

were just happy sitting more

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with the critical perspectives?

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Irina: Well, when I was a PhD student

I remember walking into my advisor's

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office And my advisor is Bob Kraut.

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And saying, Bob, I mean, I want what

I do to kind of make a difference.

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I mean, like, why, what's the point?

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What's the point of doing this?

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And he looked at me and he said,

You're in the wrong business then.

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We do research for research's sake.

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You're supposed to do it

because it's interesting.

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And then sometimes it makes a difference.

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You don't have much control over that.

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Laughs.

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And I understand that position,

and I was never comfortable with

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it, and it was never enough.

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And I think I shifted, I shifted and

really enjoyed gaining a much more

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critical tool set, and reading a broader

swath of literature and engaging in these

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debates across the different communities.

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In part because I was never satisfied

with one community's position on anything.

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Mm hmm.

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And in part because I get

distracted really easily.

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And I'm interested in too

many different things.

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And, and so, I think for me

that was beneficial that now I,

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I, I can understand and engage

with a lot of different debates.

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And I can understand

where people come from.

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And why they make the arguments they do.

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And that, in fact, now allows me to

think about how do we make all of

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that impactful and potentially useful.

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In changing how we make things.

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And I think it was

necessary to go through that.

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And eventually you sort of realize

that you have to pick your battles.

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You can't do it all.

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So I, I eventually realized that

I was much more interested in

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trying to talk to people who will

vehemently disagree with me rather

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than those who would agree with me.

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I'm trying to figure out how do

you present artistic research

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to CHI, rather than artistic

research to SIGGRAPH, for example.

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Right?

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I mean, because I think that actually,

that has a different kind of impact.

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That bringing these different

positions can then begin to get

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people to think differently.

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Like I have a new course

that I'm designing for the

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Masters of Computer Science.

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And I'm trying to figure out if there

is a way I can smuggle phenomenology.

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into a computer science course

without them actually quite noticing.

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Geri: It seems like you're comfortable

being uncomfortable then, because in

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seeking out people who disagree or not

just speaking to the community who would

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understand exactly what you're doing, but

speaking to a community where you don't.

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What you're speaking about or

the way you may be speaking is a

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little bit different because you

think you can make a difference.

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That's work.

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That's additional work to do, all of that.

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Irina: You know, I think partly this

has to do maybe with my own background

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is that, you know, coming from

Kazakhstan and then moving to the U.

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S.

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Always being in between.

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Um, once you move at that age,

you're not really one or the

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other, you're sort of in between.

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Am I Soviet, post Soviet?

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Most definitely.

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Am I American?

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There's certainly a part of it.

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I've lived in Denmark for a

significant portion of my life.

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Am I Danish?

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Well, definitely not, but I am

no longer either American or from

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Kazakhstan in, in, in predictable ways.

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I think it's also because when I

was doing my PhD, I was different

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in that I did a social science PhD

in a school of computer science.

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Um, and I remember at my defense,

somebody asked me, How is any of this HCI?

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And, And so I think it's, in many

ways, I find that I'm comfortable in,

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in these, in this in between space.

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It's not a, I mean, it's

not a comfortable space.

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Geri: No.

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Right?

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From what you've said, it's

not a comfortable space.

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Irina: It's not a comfortable space,

because you always have to pick your

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arguments and figure them out and figure

out how do you, how do you position

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yourself and argue in a way that you

might, you know, eventually be heard.

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But I also find it more

productive and interesting.

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And so I just inhabit that.

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And I like a good argument.

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Geri: It's fascinating.

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We, we bring our whole

selves to research, don't we?

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Like your in between ness, you've

just talked about it playing

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out in multiple dimensions of

who you are, what makes you you.

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Irina: But isn't that the point?

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The point that, especially if you think

about it, um, from the way we reflect

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now on research, with the push to

identify your own positionality, With

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a push to really identify that we want

to avoid the God trick, we want to, we

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want to make sure that everything is

partial and your perspectives matter.

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It is, we always bring ourselves, it's

just often we don't quite notice that.

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Geri: We don't notice, we don't

recognize where and how it influences.

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And you say that we're now more encouraged

to reflect on our positionality and

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that, but not all research areas do.

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There are still many

out there that [Sure].

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Do this, depersonalized, knowledge

production, de personalized

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decontextualized knowledge production.

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Irina: Absolutely.

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I mean, right.

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There's normative expectations in science.

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We've built science to fundamentally

gain its legitimacy from working as

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hard as possible to not be political,

to be separate from politics.

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That's the whole point of how

science gets its legitimacy.

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No wonder.

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Geri: It also sort of reflects

Bob's response as well, in a way.

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Irina: Yeah, to some extent, yes.

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But I think I understand, I completely

understand now that position.

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The position where, where...

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Um, I think there is, eventually

I had to decide that I wanted to

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fight this fight and not that one.

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That these are the things I was

interested in and not those.

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And that, my scholarship will

always be defined by my interests.

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And in the end, he's right.

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It is what's interesting to

me that's going to drive me.

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But then my actions and my activities,

what I do, I always sort of beat up

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on myself for not writing enough.

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But in part that's because I

spend a hell of a lot more time

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giving talks, and, uh, but giving

talks outside of the academy, um.

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Writing non academic pieces or putting

together reports with non profits

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and things like that in part, because

that's the kind of impact that I want

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to make and I find is really important.

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And of course it's also

driven by my interest.

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But, in the end...

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And I think what was also right, you

never know what's going to make impact.

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And if something does make

impact, that's just luck.

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But if you put yourself into

something, sometimes it might, yeah.

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Geri: In talking about, um, beating

self, but not writing papers and

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doing these other forms of output.

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To what extent is that a privilege

of your current position because you

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have like a tenured, full professor

position in a respected department.

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Irina: Full professor position, certainly.

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Tenured, absolutely not.

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[You don't have tenure].

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Denmark does not.

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No.

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Denmark does not have tenure.

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Geri: So do you have regular

evaluation cycles then?

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Irina: Um, to some extent,

The system is different.

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It's not that we have regular, well,

yes, we do have regular evaluation

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cycles, where we are evaluated overall

as a department, we're evaluated,

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um, sort of on the sectional level.

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Um, there is certainly career

development, um, annual career development

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meetings and processes like that.

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But also, our contracts state that

it's at will employment at any moment.

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The university can decide

they want to shift direction.

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Give me six months notice.

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Geri: So, is there any career risk to

you in choosing to write an article for

357

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a non profit or for some other external

body versus, another journal paper?

358

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Irina: I don't see it that

way in part because I think...

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Um, at least where and what

I do impact still matters.

360

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And in many ways I do produce

quite a bit of academic writing.

361

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I think mostly the beating

myself up is for, I actually

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want to write these papers.

363

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Um, and because that's the other

thing, you eventually figure out.

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Um, if you try to do

everything, you will break.

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And I've learned through experience

that everything's a choice.

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And if you want to do something,

you're giving up something else.

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And that's just how it is.

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Time isn't stretchy.

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[It isn't, is it?] No.

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We really like to think that

it is, but it's really not.

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Geri: It's the one

thing we cannot control.

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[No].

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Not an extra second in our day.

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Can you share a little bit more

about that journey, because you've

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had quite a journey there, haven't

you, to get to this position?

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Irina: I have.

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:

You know, there's an aspect

to being an academic.

378

:

Is that there's a lot of things

that can begin to happen.

379

:

You know, you try and you strive and you,

you write a bunch of grant proposals and

380

:

you try to put your networks together and

then there's a moment when all of that

381

:

happens and it's all so happy and it's

all happy but suddenly when it rains and

382

:

pours and there's just not enough of you.

383

:

And the interesting thing in the academy,

right, we act like, you know, it's a

384

:

little bit of an entrepreneurship model.

385

:

You have to go after things and get them.

386

:

And when you do, it's just more work.

387

:

Mm hmm.

388

:

In the end.

389

:

Yeah, right.

390

:

You know, the good news is you won.

391

:

The bad news is you now have

to do this grant proposal.

392

:

And you have to really deliver, right?

393

:

And it's always there.

394

:

I don't think we account for that.

395

:

I don't think, I think it takes

quite a lot to account for just the

396

:

amount of work all of this takes.

397

:

And it's really easy to put yourself in a

position where What you want to do is so

398

:

many things, there's not enough of you.

399

:

And, I ended up having to

coordinate, an EU horizon grant.

400

:

I'd never even had an EU grant before.

401

:

I had no idea what it entailed at all, and

I suddenly ended up being the coordinator

402

:

for this two million euro thing with

like, six partners across four countries.

403

:

Geri: You put this proposal together, you

led the proposal, like it wasn't just...

404

:

Taking over the coordination

from someone else.

405

:

Irina: No, no, I loved the proposal,

but initially the first couple

406

:

of times I applied, somebody

else was supposed to coordinate.

407

:

And then they stepped out, and

the last time we applied, it was

408

:

like, okay, well I'll step in.

409

:

Geri: So this is a topic that

you've had multiple goes with.

410

:

Irina: Right.

411

:

And when it got funded, it was exciting.

412

:

And then I realized, well, we made

mistakes in writing it, because

413

:

I had no idea how EU proposal.

414

:

I'd never done it before.

415

:

Now I know.

416

:

And, I, I put a lot of myself into it.

417

:

I didn't even get a lot of,

Publications or things coming out of it.

418

:

I still, I feel there's

a lot to be written.

419

:

I just haven't had the

capacity to write it.

420

:

But it took so much to do the

coordination, to do the management, to

421

:

do the kind of emotional and people work

that's required to make all this happen.

422

:

Not to mention, deliverables for the

EU, which are a lot of work as well.

423

:

And I never quite given myself a break.

424

:

And so the idea was I

was going to switch jobs.

425

:

I was going to, and my project was ending.

426

:

It was ending in December.

427

:

And I was like, okay, I am

going to start my job in March.

428

:

[So which switch are you talking

about?] so switching from ITU

429

:

to University of Copenhagen.

430

:

Geri: So the coordination of the

grant happened while you were at ITU.

431

:

Irina: Yeah.

432

:

And I thought I've been

finishing the grant.

433

:

And then I'll have three months.

434

:

I will take a break.

435

:

And then two months I'll take a

break and then March 1st I will

436

:

start the University of Copenhagen.

437

:

It'll be great.

438

:

Did not happen that way at all.

439

:

I had to finish the grant.

440

:

The grant also took, the finishing of the

grant, even though officially it stopped

441

:

in December, took another two months.

442

:

There was no break.

443

:

I finished one, started, started

the other, started the new job.

444

:

COVID happened.

445

:

And it kept going and kept going and kept

going and I had a new job and I needed

446

:

to perform and I needed to teach and then

there was COVID and then there was...

447

:

And I kept going.

448

:

Eventually I noticed I stopped reading.

449

:

I would try to read and I would

get through half a paper and I

450

:

wouldn't be able to finish it.

451

:

But then I would be stressed

out and needing to finish

452

:

something else and then...

453

:

Then I noticed writing got a lot harder.

454

:

But I could still really

sort of power through and get

455

:

things down just a lot slower.

456

:

By the time the fall of 22 arrived,

I realized I was in serious trouble.

457

:

Geri: What was that time period?

458

:

Irina: So this was all during COVID, this

was between:

459

:

2020, that's when COVID started, and so

:

460

:

new job, and it was also the finishing.

461

:

Geri: And the EU grant was

a three year, four year?

462

:

Irina: It was a three year thing.

463

:

Geri: So it's a three year before then,

and then Going straight into this, which,

464

:

what would be an incredibly stressful time

for anyone embedded in an organization,

465

:

let alone starting somewhere new and

trying to straddle two departments.

466

:

Irina: And trying to start straddle

two departments and having to

467

:

deal with sort of the pandemic

lockdown and everything else.

468

:

And I also, I was, I had I had a new

ant that got funded, also in:

469

:

So in 2021, we hired, I had three

PhD students that started in:

470

:

We went through this

enormous hiring procedure.

471

:

So in fall of 2021, it was in fall

of:

472

:

I was, I was, I stopped, stopped reading.

473

:

I stopped, I stopped being able to write.

474

:

I was teaching and I walked

into my section head's office

475

:

and it's Kasper Hornbeck.

476

:

And I said, Kasper, I'm in trouble.

477

:

I, I don't think I can do this.

478

:

I'm, I'm too tired.

479

:

I, I can no longer think straight.

480

:

I can no longer contribute.

481

:

I, I'm just in a fog.

482

:

And he looked at me and said, Why

don't you take a break and don't teach?

483

:

What do you mean, I have a course?

484

:

The next week, Kasper walked somebody

into my office and said, This person

485

:

is going to take over your course.

486

:

Um, for the next month.

487

:

Just to give him all the materials.

488

:

It was shocking.

489

:

The course was developed.

490

:

I'd developed it the year before.

491

:

I had all the materials.

492

:

And it was amazing.

493

:

I suddenly was like, Oh.

494

:

And I thought that was going to be enough.

495

:

It was going to be enough to

just step back and to be able to.

496

:

And it wasn't.

497

:

I was writing on...

498

:

in an ERC Synergy proposal with two

colleagues and I suddenly realized

499

:

that what was happening was they would

they would be like, okay, you need to

500

:

write this part because this is your

part and I would try and I wouldn't

501

:

be able to so then we'd have a phone

call and I would speak and I would talk

502

:

we would have a discussion then they

would write it for me and send it to

503

:

me and say, is this what you meant?

504

:

and I would edit it and send it back

I could not produce my own text.

505

:

Geri: Did you tell them that

you were feeling just worn out?

506

:

Or were they just nice

colleagues who did that?

507

:

Irina: We had a discussion and

I suddenly realized, Look you

508

:

guys, I'm having real trouble.

509

:

I'm, I'm having, I'm having a problem.

510

:

And I'm clearly, I'm, I, I

need to go on sick leave.

511

:

I'm not doing well.

512

:

And they said okay.

513

:

And we submitted the proposal.

514

:

And I had other things that I

wanted to finish because at that

515

:

point my department and Kasper and

everybody said I really don't know

516

:

really you need to go on sick leave.

517

:

This is not working.

518

:

This is really not working and I was

terrified I Was terrified because I had

519

:

all these things that I wanted to do.

520

:

I had all these things

that I had lined up.

521

:

I had three students in the

first six months of their PhD.

522

:

I had other projects

that needed to happen.

523

:

I had a course that needed to finish.

524

:

I had all of these things.

525

:

And suddenly my department

said, Just leave.

526

:

Just go on sick leave.

527

:

And it was one of the

scariest things to do.

528

:

And I had a long conversation with

my colleague, Pernille Bjorn at

529

:

the time, who said, It will be okay.

530

:

Just do it.

531

:

And I, I, I realized

I had no other option.

532

:

Mm hmm.

533

:

I couldn't read.

534

:

I couldn't write.

535

:

I couldn't even really give

a coherent talk of any kind.

536

:

I could barely formulate

what I wanted to express.

537

:

I was not capable of

performing my job in any way.

538

:

It was really bad.

539

:

And so I stopped.

540

:

And my department was amazing.

541

:

[They sound it].

542

:

They stepped in.

543

:

I was paper's chair for

NordiCHI at the time.

544

:

And, and I emailed Eve Hogan,

who is the general chair.

545

:

And I said, Eve, I, I, I can't do this.

546

:

She's like, fine.

547

:

And so Susanna Bødker stepped in as

an extra papers chair in my stead

548

:

for a while until I got on my feet.

549

:

And she said, fine.

550

:

No big deal.

551

:

And I emailed my colleagues and I

said, I have these students and,

552

:

you know, can you please take care

of them as school supervisors?

553

:

And they said, fine.

554

:

We'll do it.

555

:

And then I didn't open my

email for a month and a half.

556

:

And I found it, I, I just, I wandered

the city for a couple of weeks.

557

:

I read silly sci fi.

558

:

I watched a lot of...

559

:

I realized I hadn't watched

TV for, for, for a while.

560

:

I watched TV.

561

:

I went and saw movies.

562

:

And it was coming up on Christmas.

563

:

I did shopping.

564

:

Christmas shopping.

565

:

I think it's the only year people

actually got Christmas presents from me.

566

:

Because I had the time to do Christmas

shopping for once in my life.

567

:

And I couldn't sustain

it for longer than that.

568

:

[What, longer than a

month and a half?] Yes.

569

:

So I slowly kind of came back, but I

still, I knew I still, I was not well.

570

:

I was really not well.

571

:

Geri: So I wanted to come back to that.

572

:

Um, but it sounds incredibly amazing.

573

:

That first time you went into Kasper's

office and just said, I can't do this.

574

:

What did it take for you

to, to get to that point?

575

:

Irina: I think for me, it's always

been extraordinarily difficult

576

:

to admit that I needed help.

577

:

Hmm.

578

:

And so it was pretty, it was, it was a

pretty big deal for me to basically walk

579

:

into Kasper's office and say, I need help.

580

:

[Hmm.

581

:

That's what I'm just wondering].

582

:

But also at that point I realized...

583

:

that I was not able to do

what needed to be done.

584

:

I was not able to teach

the way I wanted to teach.

585

:

I was not able to engage with

my students the way I wanted

586

:

to engage with my students.

587

:

And I think at a certain point I panicked.

588

:

I panicked.

589

:

I went into his office and

I said, I think I need help.

590

:

Geri: Because you did use words like

power on and things like that before

591

:

when you were recognizing that you were

starting to have struggle reading or

592

:

writing, but you powered on, powered on.

593

:

So this pressure on yourself.

594

:

Irina: I know that I

should have taken a break.

595

:

Probably even before I started my new job.

596

:

I know that I was burnt out then, already.

597

:

But there was always something else to do.

598

:

And there was always something

else that just needed to be done.

599

:

And I think it's really easy to

fall into this process where you're

600

:

like, But, I just need to get this

done and then things will be a lot

601

:

easier and then I'll just rest.

602

:

Geri: I love that, I just, and then.

603

:

I just need to, and

then it will be better.

604

:

Irina: It never actually happens.

605

:

No.

606

:

But it's really easy to convince yourself

that that's something you need to do.

607

:

And that's, as long as you get just

this one hill, just this one hill,

608

:

and then it'll be all downhill

from there and it'll be easy.

609

:

I think we all say that to ourselves.

610

:

And I just dragged it out too long.

611

:

And it's taken me nearly two years.

612

:

To begin coming back to a point where I

feel like I have control and capacity to

613

:

do the work in the way I want it done.

614

:

Geri: So control and capacity.

615

:

Irina: And it's taken a lot

to learn that sometimes.

616

:

And I want to do things But my body is

telling me to stop and I have to stop now

617

:

Geri: How does your body tell you How

does your body tell you because I mean why

618

:

all our bodies tell us in different ways

619

:

Irina: My body my body is funny

my body tells that to me in

620

:

rare with random inflammations.

621

:

And my doctors always get very confused.

622

:

When I show up, for example, with like,

I get this sudden elbow tendinitis

623

:

and everybody's like, Did you hurt it?

624

:

Did you hit it?

625

:

Did you...

626

:

Nope.

627

:

Just developed.

628

:

It's my body telling me to settle the

hell down and not use my arm for a while.

629

:

And it's annoying, but now I know

that that is, I've pushed really far

630

:

when that starts, begins to happen.

631

:

And I know.

632

:

Geri: So when your body starts telling

you, like you get an inflammation

633

:

somewhere, um, in the beginning, did you

realize that that's what was going on?

634

:

Irina: When that started happening,

I realized I needed to pay attention.

635

:

But until I went on sick leave and

actually really paid attention,

636

:

I really began to pay attention

to what was going on with me.

637

:

And I realized I hadn't paid

attention to me for quite a long time.

638

:

It's easy to ignore.

639

:

And then I started noticing.

640

:

When I was coming back, I was off

for about a month and a half, and

641

:

then I started coming back, and

everybody was like, Don't come

642

:

back too fast, come back slowly.

643

:

I could tell when I was going too fast.

644

:

I would suddenly get sick, I would

suddenly get these random inflammations, I

645

:

suddenly, my body would just push me back.

646

:

But because I was cautious,

I started noticing that.

647

:

And I've learned.

648

:

I've learned to pay attention.

649

:

I've learned to be okay with being like,

okay, I can't say yes to things now.

650

:

And I've also learned to try and

plan a little bit for times when I

651

:

know that the pressure and the level

of demands is going to be high.

652

:

Um, but I still struggle with

making sure I don't overdo things.

653

:

The past me always thought that

something that I'm signed up

654

:

for is going to be a good idea.

655

:

[I know].

656

:

The current me is not quite

so sure most of the time.

657

:

Geri: You talked about, you try to

plan now, like one of the things

658

:

you've learned is to recognize when

there may be coming up periods of

659

:

increased pressure and planning more.

660

:

What might that look like practically?

661

:

And that's where we leave

it now for part one.

662

:

If you recognize some of Irina's story as

your own, and you're also about to break.

663

:

Please.

664

:

I hope you're able to find the

support you need to step back.

665

:

And stop and get help.

666

:

And know that you're not alone in this.

667

:

And if you're not yet at that

breaking point, I'm curious.

668

:

What has struck for you here that you

might use to stop yourself breaking?

669

:

What do you take away?

670

:

For me, there were the reminders

about reflecting more on the

671

:

pressures I put on myself.

672

:

And the stories I tell myself

about just this one more thing,

673

:

and then it will be better.

674

:

About learning to listen more to my body.

675

:

And also about paying more

attention to my future self.

676

:

When I'm making decisions.

677

:

And one thing that

really struck me in this.

678

:

Was the power of having

amazing colleagues.

679

:

And for Irina, amazing colleagues who

didn't hesitate to step in and support.

680

:

And it makes me think about how we can be

those support people for others around us.

681

:

And we'll all take our turn.

682

:

I'm sure.

683

:

In needing to reach out

for help at some stage.

684

:

It's the give and take of academia.

685

:

So we'll be back next week with part

two, where arena goes on and shares

686

:

much more of the practical strategies

about how she's managing the return

687

:

to work and managing the workload.

688

:

And trying to take care of herself there.

689

:

You can find the summary notes,

a transcript, and related

690

:

links for this podcast on www.

691

:

changingacademiclife.

692

:

com.

693

:

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

694

:

Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

695

:

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

696

:

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

697

:

we can do academia differently.

698

:

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

699

:

And if something connected with you,

please consider sharing this podcast

700

:

with your colleagues together.

701

:

We can make change happen.

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About the Podcast

Changing Academic Life
What can we do, individually and collectively, to change academic life to be more sustainable, collaborative and effective? This podcast series offers long-form conversations with academics and thought leaders who share stories and insights, as well as bite-size musings on specific topics drawing on literature and personal experience.
For more information go to https://changingacademiclife.com
Also see https://geraldinefitzpatrick.com to leave a comment.
NOTE: this is an interim site and missing transcripts for the older podcasts. Please contact me to request specific transcripts in the meanwhile.

About your host

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Geraldine Fitzpatrick

Geraldine Fitzpatrick (Geri Fitz), is an awarded Professor i.R. at TU Wien, with degrees in Informatics, and in Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology, after a prior career as a nurse/midwife. She has International experience working in academic, research, industry and clinical settings. She is a sought-after facilitator, speaker, trainer and coach who cares about creating environments in which people can thrive, enabling individual growth, and creating collegial collaborative cultures. She works with academics and professionals at all levels, from senior academic leaders, to mid and early career researchers, to PhD students. She is also a mentor for academics and has been/is on various Faculty evaluation panels and various International Advisory Boards. An example of a course is the Academic Leadership Development Course for Informatics Europe, run in conjunction with Austen Rainer, Queens Uni Belfast. She also offers bespoke courses.