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Episode 8

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Published on:

1st Nov 2023

Irina Shklovski (Part 2) on coming back from burnout, being enough, doing enough

Professor Irina Shklovski, University of Copenhagen, continues her powerful story about her academic burn-out experiences, returning to work and learning the dance of how to be enough and do enough. She discusses the push-and-pull between professional expectations and personal health, the value of reflection and self-awareness, how to establish work boundaries, and the crucial role of support from colleagues. We also touch on university funding, neoliberal culture in academia, and the importance of nurturing a balanced lifestyle which includes non-work related activities. The conversation ends with a call for change in academia, highlighting the need to redefine standards for success and manage the increasing pressures in academic cultures.

Overview:

[00:29] Episode introduction & recap Part 1

[04:53] Trying to plan

[06:29] Saying no and yes

[14:44] Value of professional help

[22:57] Tracking work

[32:10] Making time for rest

[40:24] Culture/structure influences

[49:39] Supporting students in what is enough

[54:46] Wrapping up

[59:04] End

Listen here for a version to follow the transcript linked directly to the audio

Related Links:

Pernille Bjørn 

 Kasper Hornbæk

Ridiculous Software

Toggle Track 

Haruki Murakami, What I talk about when I talk about running 

Transcript
Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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:

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

:

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

:

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

:

Welcome to part two of my

conversation with the Irina.

6

:

I'll let her introduce herself

7

:

here.

8

:

Irina: My name is Irina Shklovsky.

9

:

I'm at the University of Copenhagen,

in the Department of Computer Science,

10

:

and a little bit in the Department of

Communication and a 20 percent guest

11

:

appointment at Linköping University

in the Gender Studies Department.

12

:

and If you try to do

everything, you will break.

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:

Geri: And as she shared so powerfully in

part one, she did break because she did

14

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try to do everything and she burnt out.

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:

We continue here in part two where

she talks about getting professional

16

:

help and how she's trying to

practically manage her return to work

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:

The key thread is about

becoming much more self-aware.

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And that's self-aware about

paying attention to her own

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:

body and what it's telling her.

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:

And also about becoming more

aware about how much time work

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actually takes by tracking it.

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:

And becoming more aware of.

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:

Um, what she can actually

do realistically.

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And she talks in this about

learning to be enough and do enough.

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By taking time to reflect

on what's important.

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:

About saying yes and

no more strategically.

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And in particular, making

sure she says yes to her own

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:

needs for everyone's benefits.

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:

As she says in her own words.

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:

Irina: it's a balance and a dance of

trying to figure out what commitments

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:

I can manage, and what commitments I

believe are important, and for what.

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:

And a constant, fairly strong

awareness, you can't do everything

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:

Geri: We'll go on here now with part

two and let Irina tell her own story.

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:

A story that we recorded back

in June when we were both at a

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:

conference in Trondheim, Norway.

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And we'll pick up here a little

bit back from where we left off

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in part one, just for context.

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Irina: I realized I

needed to pay attention.

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But until I went on sick leave and

actually really paid attention,

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:

I really began to pay attention

to what was going on with me.

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And I realized I hadn't paid

attention to me for quite a long time.

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:

It's easy to ignore.

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:

And then I started noticing.

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When I was coming back, I was off

for about a month and a half, and

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then I started coming back, and

everybody was like, Don't come

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:

back too fast, come back slowly.

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:

I could tell when I was going too fast.

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I would suddenly get sick, I would

suddenly get these random inflammations, I

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suddenly, my body would just push me back.

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But because I was cautious,

I started noticing that.

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And I've learned.

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I've learned to pay attention.

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I've learned to be okay with being like,

okay, I can't say yes to things now.

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And I've also learned to try and

plan a little bit for times when I

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:

know that the pressure and the level

of demands is going to be high.

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:

Um, but I still struggle with

making sure I don't overdo things.

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:

The past me always thought that

something that I'm signed up

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:

for is going to be a good idea.

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:

[I know].

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:

The current me is not quite

so sure most of the time.

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:

Geri: You talked about, you try to

plan now, like one of the things

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you've learned is to recognize when

there may be coming up periods of

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:

increased pressure and planning more.

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:

What might that look like practically?

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Irina: So right now I'm looking at my

fall and I'm very clear on the fact

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that it's going to be very tough.

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Because again, the past me did not

plan very well, and the current

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me is very aware that suddenly

everything is happening this fall.

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Um, and I'm a little bit intimidated,

so now suddenly I'm like, Okay, I'm

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starting a new course, which means

I have to actually have Most of the

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core is designed and prepared, and

I need to get that done before July.

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That is extremely advanced for me.

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Geri: We are talking, early June here, so

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Irina: yes.

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That's extremely advanced for you

to even begin thinking about that.

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but it's because I know that if I can

get it done before July or sort of.

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That means that I will be able to deal

with the fact that I have my CHI Papers

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:

Chair this fall, I have three students

that want to write papers for CHI this

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:

fall, and I'm starting my 20 percent

position with Linköping in September.

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:

So, all of that will need to

happen all at the same time.

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:

So something needs to be done now.

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Some things really need to

be done and figured out now.

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Otherwise.

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Geri: You said before about learning

to, that you can't say yes to everything.

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And then you also talked about

your past you and your current you.

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:

So, even in saying yes to the Linköping

and some of the big fall commitments.

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Irina: I, you know, it's always a balance.

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There's certain things you want to do,

and opportunities come along, and you've

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wanted to do them, so you say yes.

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And then other opportunities

come along, and they just kind of

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have to happen at the same time.

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And eventually, you just kind of

find yourself in the situation.

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And so right now, I am extremely aware.

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I will be at my limit this fall.

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But it also means that my answer

to everything right now is no.

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From paper review and committee

commitments to, um, PhD dissertation

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examinations to everything else.

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It's just a no.

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And it's a no that is entirely I'm

entirely qualified and entirely justified

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in my mind, but it also is for the

first time I am feeling like it's a no

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that I do with complete lack of guilt.

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Geri: It's interesting that there can,

that there is guilt associated with no's.

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Irina: Always.

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I think there is partly guilt, because

when people ask, Uh, you want to help.

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And there is partly a feeling

of, or a fear of missing out.

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A fear of maybe this opportunity

will turn into something and you

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wouldn't miss that if you said yes.

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But it's also, I think our nos

are, we don't appreciate when

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other people say no to us.

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And so, when we say no to others, it is

certainly a similar kind of experience.

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Geri: Because you're aware of the human

cost of that no for the other person.

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Irina: Absolutely.

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And that's always a trade off.

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I think no's are ways of

us protecting ourselves.

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But, it's also a social cost.

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That you have to bear.

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Yeah.

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And it's a set of choices that we make.

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And sometimes I think, I wonder if I'm

making the right choice, if I said the

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right yeses and, and and the right nos.

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And you never know really.

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Geri: I was just gonna ask you do, are you

getting any sense of the criteria at all?

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Irina: No, but at least now I have.

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An extremely strong sense

of where my limits might be.

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And I know, I know, I

push them all the time.

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But I try very hard not to

push them too far out of shape.

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And I think that's also a process

and a learning experience.

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Geri: Sounds like you're

doing a dance with your body.

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Yeah.

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How are we going?

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Can we just do this a little bit more?

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There's another way of framing the

no's, which is, the saying the yeses.

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Like, in saying no to that,

what are you saying yes to?

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Irina: Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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And, but that's, again, there's always

a trade off of how do you know which

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yeses and no's are the right ones.

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And that's anybody's

guess most of the time.

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But, I guess, I've always said

that I, I've always known that

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I needed to be more strategic.

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I've never quite figured

out what that means.

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What means?

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[Sounds good].

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Sounds really good.

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I needed to be more thoughtful

about what are my goals.

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But then, sometimes that

feels incredibly selfish.

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And so it's a balance and a dance of

trying to figure out what commitments

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I can manage, and what commitments I

believe are important, and for what.

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And a constant, fairly strong

awareness, like there are certain

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:

things, you can't do everything.

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[You can't do everything].

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And so you have to make some

commitments and give up some others.

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And that's okay.

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And it's worthwhile spending

some time thinking about that.

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Because if you try to do everything, if

you try to lift everything, if you try

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to carry everything, you will break.

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Yeah.

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And it is not pretty.

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[Yeah, and you will drop everything].

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And you will drop everything.

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Yeah.

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And I was extremely lucky.

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I was so extremely lucky that I was

surrounded by people who caught me.

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Who caught things that I

dropped and it was okay.

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Not everything was okay.

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Certain things would have

gone better if I was there.

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Yeah, that's just how it is.

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[But have they still gone good

enough?] But they're okay.

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They're okay.

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And I realized that I Was in position

where I could do that and I'm

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extremely lucky that that happened But

also I put myself in that position.

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I put myself in the position where I

broke And I put myself in that position

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because I didn't pay attention to me To

the signals from my brain and my body

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Because I always felt that there was this

one other thing I just needed to finish.

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[And then it will].

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And then it will.

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And then it will.

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And so, now I try extremely hard

to be like, okay, you know what?

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I promised that I would

do this and this and this.

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And now I see that right now, I could

try to do this, but I'm extremely tired,

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and it's late, and actually, it'll be

okay if I close my laptop right now and

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not think about work until tomorrow.

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And to recognize that that's perfectly

fine, and to recognize that I can come

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back to my colleague and say, you know,

I promised you feedback on your, on

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your grant, and I promised you by today,

but I really wasn't able to get to it.

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When can I get it to you?

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And if not, I can't.

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[Yeah.

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Because you can't do it all].

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Sometimes you can't.

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And sometimes you promise

and you realize you can't.

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And then, it's better to just

come back and say, I actually,

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I'm sorry, I can't do it.

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Then try to do it anyway.

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Geri: You used the word

selfish a couple of times.

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Do you still think of this as selfish?

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Irina: I used to think of that

as selfish a lot more, and now

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I think it's self preservation.

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In the end, if I'm clear about

it, if I'm beyond tired and I'm

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still trying to do something, it's

never going to be good anyway.

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If I am working myself to the point where

I break, A lot more things will break.

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So it's just being a little

bit more honest about what it

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is that I'm capable of doing.

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With myself and with others.

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Geri: Yeah.

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And I, I like from what you said that

you just go back and say, like you're

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still holding yourself accountable to

the commitment that you made to them

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and you're just being honest about

where you're at and what you can do.

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Irina: Because I think

everybody understands that.

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And, yes, it's disappointing.

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But bloody hell, we all have limits.

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Geri: Yeah, yeah.

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Did you seek any professional

help at all during this time?

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Irina: Absolutely.

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So, my university also has this

insurance policy, where when

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you come into this, situation.

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You call essentially an emergency

number and they completely anonymously

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assign you, a therapist to speak to a

workplace therapist to help you work

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through what's there and what's needed.

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And it's completely free and it's

completely anonymous and it's kept

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completely separate from the university.

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It's just.

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Something that the insurance

does, so that's what I did.

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And I met a therapist who worked with me.

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Just to help me see what, what

to do and what I needed to do.

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And who actually helped me get to the

point where I just went on sick leave.

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He helped me realize

that that was possible.

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Geri: Right, so you needed, you needed

that help just to work through it,

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because the other half of you is keeping

up, but I can't because I've got all

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these commitments and responsibilities

and three PhD students and, and, and.

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Irina: Yeah, and, and,

That was extremely helpful.

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in Denmark too, um, I went to my doctor,

in order to go officially on sick leave,

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you have to go to your doctor, and my

doctor took one look at me and said, Yes.

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Ha ha ha.

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Geri: You've been to the doctor and

the doctor had said, Yes, you need to

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Irina: go on sick leave.

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And insisted on it very strongly.

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And then the occupational therapy,

you only get so many visits.

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But in the meantime, I, um, my doctor

had, uh, prescribed regular therapy.

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Um, so, I got a regular therapist

and finished the occupational

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therapy and went to that.

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Um, and that was extremely helpful to

just begin working through recognizing,

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um, just my tendency to ignore myself

and do all these things and get

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excited about things and kind of just.

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Spread myself too thin and, figure

out how to cope with that and

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begin to get some ways of thinking

and reflecting that can help.

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Um, and essentially doing some exercises

of just like, rather than thinking

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about all these things I want to achieve.

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Paying much more attention to what

I actually do, and how much of it.

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Because I find actually a lot of times we

always feel like we haven't done enough.

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Mhm.

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And it's useful, like at the end

of the week just looking back and

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being like, What did I actually do?

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And it turns out you do a lot.

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A lot of it isn't something

you count as work.

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But it all kind of counts.

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And it takes a while to then figure

out, okay, of what you do, what

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is it that you want to continue?

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What is important?

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How do you figure out space and

time to do more of one thing

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and maybe less of the other?

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Um, what kinds of commitments got

you to something that you weren't

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happy with and weren't happy to do?

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And what kinds of commitments

got you something that was more?

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Generative and nourishing and

useful and, and maybe fun.

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I think we don't do enough fun.

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Enough fun.

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We don't do enough fun,

we definitely don't.

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Geri: That sounds like something that

also needs paying attention to your body.

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[Right].

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Or how, or how do you recognize what are

the things that are generative for you?

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Irina: When you look at it and you re and

I think for me, I look at it and I decide

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okay, what if this is just something that

is that something I'd love to do again?

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Is that something that I feel went well?

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Is that something that

I actually enjoy doing?

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Um, or is that something that's

going to lead to something else?

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And do I want to go there?

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Sometimes you don't.

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And Some things you just need

to give it a chance, right?

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You're doing something, you start a

series of meetings with people, and

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it doesn't really work for a while,

maybe you need to give it a chance.

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Some things...

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I, um...

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I started, uh, I started doing these

projects with students, um, doing

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Ridiculous Software, which is a

little fun project that I really like.

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And I love the project, the Ridiculous

Software project, and it attracts...

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[It's called Ridiculous Software Project].

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Ridiculous Software, um, In fact,

we have a website called Ridiculous.

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software.

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But I also tried to do it with, uh,

with master's students and they,

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and they started showing up, because

they thought it would be fun to do

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it sort of as a little project, so

as part of their master's education.

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And at first I thought it would be really

fun, and I kind of enjoyed them, and

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then I realized it was a lot of effort.

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But not a lot of return.

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Because they were treating it

as something like, Ah, we'll

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just do something ridiculous.

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Which, the whole point is

building software that is...

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weird and upsets your expectations

of what software is supposed to do

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and on doing something the opposite.

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So I had a student that just built um,

an extension, a Chrome extension that

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would attempt to recommend as you watch

YouTube, it will attempt to recommend

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you, YouTube videos that you would hate.

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I had a student that built something

that would randomly remind you

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on your phone to breathe out.

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Just remember to breathe out.

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It's sort of like a mindfulness exercise.

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And they're fun.

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But I also found that I didn't have enough

of a setup to get them to do that well.

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They weren't doing them particularly well.

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It was taking a lot of my time.

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And then I realized, okay,

I can't run them this way.

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This is fun.

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But it can't continue this way.

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So, if I want to do this, then I'm

actually going to have to take a break

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from this for a little while, figure

out an infrastructure where they can

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come in and what do they need to read,

how do they need to do things, how do

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they need to organize, so it's all a

little bit more structured, um, rather

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than just these exploratory little

projects, so that it doesn't take as

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much time for me as it was taking.

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And normally I would just

continue because, oh my god,

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these students are so interested.

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But suddenly I said, okay, no,

no more, no more for a while.

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I can't, I can't take anymore.

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I will come back to this.

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And student will continue being

interested in this, I think.

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The name is fun.

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But, oh, I need to, I

can't do it this way.

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I, I actually need to.

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I need to do this differently.

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I need to be much more systematic,

much more careful about how

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much time I, I put into this.

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[So this is a new you].

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That is.

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And it feels sometimes, like, wait,

but this is kind of working, the

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students are showing up, what if

I stop and they won't show up?

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But on the other hand, I'm like, no,

actually, no, no, this is not working.

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It's not working for me and it's in

the same way not working for them.

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Geri: Do you have a deliberate

practice of sitting down?

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This is a highly reflective process that

you're talking about, both in trying to

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detect the patterns about what are you

enjoying doing that you find generative,

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that you want to do more of, and things

that you might want to do less of.

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So it's highly reflective.

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Do you have any particular

practices to support that?

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Like do you sit down at the

piece of paper and for 10

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minutes or is it just a mindset?

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Irina: Some of it is a mindset,

but some of it is just silly

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things like, um, I have a...

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So, one of my colleagues

recommended Toggl Track as one

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of these little toggle things.

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Because we always complain that we work

all the time and I wanted to figure

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out, do I actually work all the time?

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What do I do?

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How do I do it?

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And I have this, I run it as a

little desktop thing where, it

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actually sort of tracks what I...

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which I use and I can sort of put in, um,

Oh, well this I was working on CHI or this

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I was working on this project or this I

was teaching, this I was Um, and then I

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can sort of track time used for things.

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And I tracked for a few months.

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Not for like how many hours am

I working, am I working enough?

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I noticed that actually immediately.

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Immediately I was I suddenly was like,

well, I worked 47 hours this week.

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And I was like, oh my god, no really?

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Are we back to that?

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But then I realized that

it's not about the number of

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hours I was working in total.

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It was about, actually, it gave me

suddenly a much more visceral overview.

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of how much time things actually take.

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Mm hmm.

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And once you realize that, you

begin to understand that when

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:

you say yes to things, it comes

with specific amounts of time.

373

:

And remember, time's not stretchy.

374

:

Really not stretchy.

375

:

So when you are committing to things

that in fact will take 40 hours in

376

:

that week, you will end up working

60 because there's 20 hours of

377

:

that other stuff that will come up.

378

:

That will just need to be attended

to, done, responded to, immediately.

379

:

And unless you are clear with

yourself, of what you're doing,

380

:

but figuring out how much time

things take is extremely difficult.

381

:

So I said, okay, I'm going to

spend, so the last, like, four

382

:

months I've been tracking.

383

:

And I've been tracking in a way

where, because there's been CHI, and

384

:

there's been all these other events,

and so things are, so that I can get

385

:

a much better sense of just how much

time am I spending in all of this.

386

:

And it allows me Again, it

gives me a sense of saying no.

387

:

When do I say yes and when do I say no?

388

:

It gives me a better expectation of

how much time am I committing to.

389

:

This is why I know my fall is

going to be very difficult.

390

:

Because I know how much

time I've committed to.

391

:

But it also actually gives me a sense

of certainty about what to expect.

392

:

Which I never really had before.

393

:

So before you would just say,

you would say, would you do this?

394

:

Yeah, I'll do that.

395

:

Okay, I'll do that.

396

:

Oh, my June seems a little bit looser.

397

:

I'll do that then.

398

:

And then you realize you've overcommitted.

399

:

So how do you not overcommit?

400

:

Oh, I really need to figure

out what I want to do.

401

:

But how?

402

:

I need to know about how

much time things take.

403

:

You need to think about

where you want to go.

404

:

You need to figure out why it's so hard

to say no to some things and not others.

405

:

And you need to figure out whether that

is something you need to rethink or not.

406

:

Yeah.

407

:

What are our commitments?

408

:

Are those commitments the ones

we actually want to uphold?

409

:

Or do we want to rethink them?

410

:

My god, that takes a

lot of time and effort.

411

:

And actually, I needed to give myself

time to do all that thinking too.

412

:

That doesn't come right away.

413

:

Geri: Do you mean the time or the

ability to do that thinking?

414

:

Irina: The ability to do that thinking and

the space and time to do that thinking.

415

:

Right?

416

:

The ability is at a certain point,

you actually have to learn how to

417

:

reflect and be like, Is that okay?

418

:

And at first it takes a long

time to figure that out.

419

:

And then it's less.

420

:

Because you've gained the skill.

421

:

Reflection is also a skill.

422

:

And we're super reflective,

but reflecting on ourselves is

423

:

a completely different skill.

424

:

Which is funny.

425

:

You would never expect that.

426

:

You would think a scholar that's done

deep qualitative work and quantitative

427

:

work and have written things about all

kinds of stuff would know how to reflect.

428

:

And then thinking about your own

life, you just realize that it's

429

:

a completely different skill.

430

:

And you still have to learn about that.

431

:

But somehow, because it's just

you, it doesn't seem like you

432

:

never ever have enough time for it.

433

:

[But it's okay to prioritize you].

434

:

It turns out if you prioritize

you, at least occasionally,

435

:

everybody else benefits too.

436

:

Geri: Yeah.

437

:

I think that's a really

key point, isn't it?

438

:

Irina: And it turns out if you

don't prioritize you, eventually

439

:

everybody loses because you break.

440

:

[Yeah.

441

:

So that's more selfish in a way].

442

:

Yeah.

443

:

It is.

444

:

Because for a while before you break,

you are going to be producing things that

445

:

are never going to be your best work.

446

:

And you're never going to be like,

that was really good, because I

447

:

could have done better, but my head

didn't really have a brain then.

448

:

And that's worse.

449

:

So, there's another thing though, is

that, I think, one thing I'm trying to

450

:

correct right now and figure out how to

deal with, is that, I still overcommit.

451

:

It's just a knee jerk reaction.

452

:

I just overcommit to things.

453

:

I need to stop overcommitting.

454

:

But, I also need to figure out

how to not appear to everyone

455

:

like I'm incredibly busy.

456

:

I am.

457

:

But, I think it's become kind of

like a pathology, where people are

458

:

starting to write to me, I know

you're incredibly busy, but...

459

:

Geri: Say more about that.

460

:

What do you mean by appearing to be busy.

461

:

Irina: I think busyness is something

that, to me, it's becoming, at least

462

:

in my case, if I begin to appear

really busy to everybody, it means

463

:

I've completely overcommitted.

464

:

Geri: Okay, so it's more that if people

are reading you as being busy, then, oops.

465

:

Irina: Then I'm definitely in it.

466

:

So if I start getting email from

people and saying, I know you're

467

:

incredibly busy, but, Like, oh,

I think I'm overdoing things.

468

:

I need to go back.

469

:

Geri: Mm hmm.

470

:

So using their observation of you

as another source of feedback.

471

:

Irina: Because I suddenly realized

that I don't like appearing incredibly

472

:

intensely busy all the time to people

and I don't, I hope that I don't.

473

:

But I think when we get stressed

out, we get over committed.

474

:

We stop having enough space and time

to just have a coffee with a colleague.

475

:

To step in and say hello.

476

:

We just rush past.

477

:

And we appear busy to everybody

because we don't have time to breathe.

478

:

Geri: And connect.

479

:

I mean the two things that you

just said there, about coffee with

480

:

a colleague, stopping in to say

hello, is about time to connect.

481

:

Irina: And, and then you realise

that suddenly, I realise at least,

482

:

that suddenly I am making a choice

between either having a coffee with

483

:

a colleague, Or, doing something for

myself, that is a wrong calculus.

484

:

I should have time for both.

485

:

I've overcommitted.

486

:

And so right now I think I'm going through

this process of trying to figure out how

487

:

much commitment is okay and is enough.

488

:

And that's a really It's a process.

489

:

Geri: Yeah Are you still

getting help like still seeing

490

:

a therapist or someone just to?

491

:

Sense check this with?

492

:

Irina: Yeah, I am and I realized because

apparently I need an external opinion

493

:

Geri: Yeah Because I think

that we all do in a way

494

:

Irina: I need somebody to

tell me that you know I am.

495

:

I am.

496

:

And I am also keenly aware

that, I'm not fully recovered.

497

:

It takes years to recover from

the level of burnout that I had.

498

:

and I have to be very

careful because that was bad.

499

:

Mm-hmm.

500

:

And, but that was bad because I have

the tendency to overcommit, to get

501

:

overexcited to decide that I wanna

do everything and be everything and

502

:

participate in these public events and

write papers with all of my students.

503

:

And needing to create a new course

and do this all at the same time

504

:

because it all seems important.

505

:

It all seems valuable and it is.

506

:

It is.

507

:

It is, but in the end,

there's only one of me.

508

:

And with all of this valuable stuff,

I forget I also need time to go for a

509

:

bike ride, to go to a yoga class, to

actually take time and go for a walk

510

:

in the forest and not think about work.

511

:

Maybe go watch a movie.

512

:

And not feel guilty about it.

513

:

And it's like, one of my friends said,

You know, rest is only restful if

514

:

you're not feeling guilty about resting.

515

:

Because if you're feeling

guilty about resting, your

516

:

nervous system is not resting.

517

:

It's freaking out.

518

:

And then it's not rest at all.

519

:

And I think in academia we'd feel guilty

about not working when we're doing

520

:

anything other than working a lot.

521

:

And that just makes things worse.

522

:

Geri: Mmm.

523

:

Yeah.

524

:

So it sounds like that's

a journey as well.

525

:

In learning that it's okay

to rest, genuinely rest.

526

:

Irina: Not just okay, it's imperative.

527

:

It's crucial, and if you don't...

528

:

Geri: So you talked about some

practices like yoga and bike riding

529

:

and going for a walk in the forest.

530

:

Are you able to build them

in, in a structured way?

531

:

Or how do you manage other aspects

of your life beyond work now?

532

:

Irina: So I've realized, um,

actually, I read Haruki Murakami's,

533

:

What I Talk About When I Talk About

Running, which is a lovely book.

534

:

It's a bit of a memoir.

535

:

And he says something in

that book, you know, pain is

536

:

inevitable, suffering is optional.

537

:

I quite like that.

538

:

And he also says something in that book

that once you commit to something, you're

539

:

cutting out other things in your life.

540

:

Again, so if I want to, if I realize

I can't just do my job, which involves

541

:

reading and writing and thinking

and engaging with people and giving

542

:

talks and doing all of that all

the time, that's not good for me.

543

:

I need other things.

544

:

That means I have to

create space for that.

545

:

If I want to seriously, ride my

bike and get good at that, there's

546

:

only so many other things I can fit.

547

:

Maybe that's also my social activity.

548

:

Maybe I out prioritize

this over other things.

549

:

I think...

550

:

So now I'm very careful about it.

551

:

Okay.

552

:

I will protect times in my day

and in my week where I will do the

553

:

things that are other than work

because they are important too.

554

:

I will block them out on my calendar

so that nobody can schedule anything

555

:

in those days and in those times and it

doesn't matter what else is happening.

556

:

[Non negotiables].

557

:

They're non negotiables.

558

:

They have to be there.

559

:

Because otherwise, it's

really easy to give that up.

560

:

And, I have a family, and I have

things I want to do outside of work,

561

:

and I have lots of things I want to

do at work, and there's only one of

562

:

me, and I have to be careful about it.

563

:

Yeah.

564

:

It only took me a few

decades to figure it out.

565

:

It seems like an obvious thing, though.

566

:

Geri: And it's a life long.

567

:

It is a lifelong learning, isn't it, to

continually negotiate those trade offs

568

:

about what you're saying yes and no to.

569

:

Irina: It's always about how

do you keep balance, I think.

570

:

But it's also recognizing that over

time, you will need different things.

571

:

And you will need different amounts

of work or time with your family or

572

:

doing something physical or going for

walks or spending time with friends,

573

:

it will change and that's okay too.

574

:

You just need to recognize that

those changes are necessary.

575

:

Geri: Again, it's that space to step

back and to give yourself time to

576

:

reflect in order to recognize as well.

577

:

It's all part and parcel of it.

578

:

Irina: Yeah, I think it's also

a process of recognizing your

579

:

limits and being okay with them.

580

:

I have colleagues that

are incredibly good.

581

:

Every Monday they sit down, they

write down all of their tasks for

582

:

the week, and then they go through

and systematically go through it.

583

:

And I think it's amazing.

584

:

I cannot do that.

585

:

That is just not something

that I, that works for me.

586

:

I am fairly disorganized.

587

:

I'm lots of last minute.

588

:

I have many limits.

589

:

I have many shortcomings.

590

:

But as long as I recognize that they're

there, and I build a few things that

591

:

kind of mitigate some of them, it's okay.

592

:

And my colleagues come to me and say,

you know, like, you'll be organizing a

593

:

winter school in Copenhagen for the Decode

Project, which we will do in January.

594

:

And I realize, organizing

is not my strong suit.

595

:

So my solution to this is, I need

to hire somebody to do that for me.

596

:

[Very nice].

597

:

Because clearly, it's not going to be

me, because if I try to do it, it will

598

:

take me enormous amounts of time, it will

stress me out, and I am terrible at it.

599

:

And I know.

600

:

And so, instead of trying to do it

myself, I'm going to try and figure

601

:

out how I'm going to accomplish this.

602

:

Without making it the

thing that breaks me.

603

:

[Lovely].

604

:

Recognising that is key.

605

:

Geri: Yeah.

606

:

That, that self awareness

about it's not my strength.

607

:

Also, the self awareness that someone

else can be very good and structured

608

:

at organising their to do lists at the

beginning of the week, but that's not you.

609

:

And, that's okay.

610

:

Like, it's not that you're not

measuring up to their standards.

611

:

You're just different.

612

:

Irina: Yeah.

613

:

And it takes a while to figure that out.

614

:

It takes a while to figure out

all of our brains are different.

615

:

And they all function differently.

616

:

And they all need

slightly different things.

617

:

And it works for one person,

will not work for another person.

618

:

And sometimes, when we're

stressed and we're tired, we

619

:

can get upset at each other.

620

:

And you're like, why can't

you just do it this way?

621

:

It makes sense.

622

:

Geri: I could keep talking

forever because I just think

623

:

there's so much, to explore here.

624

:

Just two things, if we can.

625

:

One is, you're to met all the work that

you're doing and necessarily needing to

626

:

do for yourself, both to get yourself.

627

:

back on the path and to try to

develop practices and habits

628

:

and, and whatever that are more

sustainable for you for the long term.

629

:

And you're operating within

a broader cultural context.

630

:

And it sounds like you've just had

amazingly supportive colleagues and

631

:

department, which is really to be

commended, you know, good on all of them.

632

:

More generally, structurally, what are the

things that you think may be contributed

633

:

to and could be changed to stop this

happening for other people or that it

634

:

may have helped you in another universe?

635

:

Irina: I mean, I live in Denmark,

which means I live in a country

636

:

where there has been enormous

attention to workplace stress.

637

:

And the very idea that people need

support through workplace stress, and

638

:

that is something that is an issue,

has been around for quite a while.

639

:

I also live in a place where the idea

of work life balance is important,

640

:

although nobody's ever quite really

sure how you're supposed to achieve it.

641

:

Um, but I live in a place where if

my kid gets sick and I have a bunch

642

:

of meetings where even I'm teaching

a course and I see my kid is sick

643

:

and everybody's like, that's fine.

644

:

Do what's important.

645

:

And that's the fact that your

kid is sick, that's important.

646

:

Not the meetings, not the

class, everything else.

647

:

Which is incredibly unusual.

648

:

I come from the U.

649

:

S.

650

:

It took me years to just actually

even take any of that on board.

651

:

To accept that this kind of way

of treating people is possible.

652

:

Where my doctor says, Yes,

you should go on sick leave.

653

:

And I say, Do I need

something to show my employer?

654

:

And he says, No.

655

:

If they want something

from me, they can call me.

656

:

And they have to pay me.

657

:

I told you to go on sick leave.

658

:

You just tell them I told

you to go on sick leave.

659

:

And go on sick leave.

660

:

And my employer says, of course,

you should go on sick leave.

661

:

And here we'll have a meeting

at this time when we decide how

662

:

slowly you're going to come back.

663

:

Please don't go back too quickly.

664

:

Geri: So even working in this

incredibly supportive environment

665

:

and with the structures in place.

666

:

So is that saying that a lot of the

pressures were coming from within?

667

:

Because, you did talk about they're

things that you get excited about it?

668

:

Irina: I think a lot of the

pressure comes from within.

669

:

A lot of the pressure also comes from

the fact that I've been socialized and,

670

:

in the US where this kind of set of

expectations is completely different.

671

:

And so when you're treated like a

valuable human being at your workplace,

672

:

it's sometimes initially shocking.

673

:

And that's horrible in this first place.

674

:

Right.

675

:

Um,

676

:

I think there is something about

the feeling here in Denmark

677

:

that I'm entitled to this.

678

:

And everybody's accepted that.

679

:

That's how it is.

680

:

That then takes the pressure off.

681

:

That when this happens,

it's not somehow my fault.

682

:

That I have to then somehow atone for.

683

:

That this is just life.

684

:

Yeah.

685

:

And things will go the way they go.

686

:

And I think all of that

is really important.

687

:

Yeah.

688

:

And, as it is, we...

689

:

I don't know, I find that most

academics are incredibly self driven.

690

:

And do crazy things like...

691

:

Alright, I think I'm just going to pull an

all nighter and write this grant proposal.

692

:

We all do that occasionally,

even though sometimes we feel

693

:

like we should know better.

694

:

And so, I think in many ways,

it can be easy to fall into the

695

:

sense of like pushing yourself

more and more and more and more.

696

:

At the very least, I had the

infrastructure surround me.

697

:

To be like, no, actually

it's okay if you don't.

698

:

Geri: So when you did fall down you had

support net, you had some safety nets and

699

:

Irina: Not only that, that safety

net did not expect me to get up

700

:

and start running again they said

me to start by walking slowly and

701

:

Then they always, they keep saying

things like, are you sure about this?

702

:

Because there's this acceptance

of like, you do enough.

703

:

And yes, of course, there's huge pressure

to get funding, there's pressure to

704

:

publish, you need to do things here and

there, and yet at the same time, there

705

:

is an understanding of what's enough and

how to provide you support to do enough.

706

:

Geri: It's such an

important word, isn't it?

707

:

Enough.

708

:

I just had a conversation with someone

who was at a course I ran for early

709

:

career researchers where we talked about

saying yes, no, and Also making those

710

:

choices about how to do more of the things

that are generative, that are fun, or

711

:

that where you feel like you can make

a difference, or that are important.

712

:

And we talked about, you know, like for

some of the other things, good enough.

713

:

And the fight that people have in their

heads that good enough sounds like it's

714

:

sloppy or a compromise, but it's not.

715

:

It's enough.

716

:

You do enough.

717

:

I love that people say that to you.

718

:

That's just so affirming.

719

:

Irina: And I think we're used to pushing

harder and comparing ourselves to others.

720

:

And it's, we are in a business where

we're constantly compared to others.

721

:

So nothing's ever enough.

722

:

It needs to be top.

723

:

It needs to be perfect.

724

:

It needs to be best.

725

:

[If you're comparing to others].

726

:

Because you're always compared to others.

727

:

How do you win a grant?

728

:

Because you're best.

729

:

Right?

730

:

Everything is that.

731

:

So no wonder, no wonder you constantly

push yourself, because you have

732

:

to be better, more, whatever.

733

:

And at some point you need to figure

out how much is enough, because if you

734

:

don't, how are you going to continue?

735

:

It's not sustainable.

736

:

As it is, if you look at it, what

was enough just two decades ago in

737

:

academia is not nearly enough now.

738

:

Geri: So that's something we

need to change because we can't

739

:

keep escalating this forever.

740

:

that's not sustainable.

741

:

Irina: Well, we're all operating

within a space where the

742

:

amount of funding is shrinking.

743

:

Um, the competitiveness of

our grants is increasing.

744

:

Um, at this point for some grants,

the funding rates are so low

745

:

that it's practically random.

746

:

And yet, when you do get funded, people

think, Oh, because you're the best.

747

:

Well, you're good.

748

:

Yeah.

749

:

And you got lucky.

750

:

Yeah.

751

:

And that's a horrible thing.

752

:

Because it's, it's so

intense at this point.

753

:

And we really need to figure

out how to change that dynamic.

754

:

[We need new funding models].

755

:

We need new funding models.

756

:

We need to figure out how to

manage the neoliberal university.

757

:

Um, how to acknowledge that the standards

that we set are constantly going up.

758

:

And if we look at ourselves, and what

it took then to do, what it's taking now

759

:

to do, those are shifting, increasing.

760

:

Um, and to critically consider what is

really success, and where are we going.

761

:

Geri: Yeah.

762

:

So, my last question is then, How,

what are the conversations like with

763

:

your students around all this, knowing

that they are still operating in this

764

:

environment as it is now, having gone

through your own experiences, how are

765

:

you helping them navigate their choices?

766

:

Irina: So one of the things I'm

very well aware of is that my taking

767

:

time off affected my students.

768

:

It couldn't not.

769

:

They did fine, but it would have

been better if I were there.

770

:

And in part this has to do with

complex projects that they're a

771

:

part of, and the different ways

that things have worked out.

772

:

Um, But that's just how it is.

773

:

And so, each student is different,

I think, and they all have different

774

:

needs, and they all need different

ways, different forms of support.

775

:

But because I'm extremely aware

of how easy it is to just push,

776

:

push, push, I try to be very clear

about what just, what is enough.

777

:

What needs to be accomplished.

778

:

And if you get more, that's great.

779

:

Because, you know, at a certain point

when I was writing my PhD, I realized

780

:

I'm not writing the dissertation.

781

:

I'm writing a dissertation.

782

:

Because it just needs to finish.

783

:

It just needs to be done.

784

:

And it also means that my students

will want to write the dissertation.

785

:

That's normal when you're halfway

through your PhD and you believe

786

:

you're going to change the world.

787

:

Sometimes you might.

788

:

But the dissertation is a form of

perfectionist that's not good for anyone.

789

:

So we work very hard on a dissertation.

790

:

On what's enough.

791

:

I work very hard on making

sure my students have options.

792

:

I talk to them about where it is that

they want to go, what they want to do,

793

:

and we talk about what needs to be in

place for them to have those options.

794

:

And now I'm going to start trying to get

funding so I can offer them some postdocs

795

:

because three year PhDs are brutal.

796

:

But, given that, then the

question is, what's enough?

797

:

If I have a student that says, you know, I

think this is fantastic and I love doing a

798

:

PhD, but after that I'm going to industry

because I can't deal with academia.

799

:

Okay.

800

:

What industry?

801

:

Do we need an internship?

802

:

Do we need to figure out

who do we need to talk to?

803

:

I have a student that really wants

to stay in academia and this is

804

:

where she wants to be and this is...

805

:

This is her thing.

806

:

Okay, where do we need to publish?

807

:

Which audiences do we need to talk to?

808

:

How do we set you up to read, to be read

by those audiences in a way that can

809

:

begin to make you that kind of scholar?

810

:

And what's enough?

811

:

Geri: So that's being strategic.

812

:

Yeah, you said before

about being strategic.

813

:

What does that mean?

814

:

That's certainly...

815

:

Lovely strategic thinking, shaping choices

that the students can be making now.

816

:

Irina: When you have a three year

PhD, if you don't make those choices,

817

:

I think it's just irresponsible.

818

:

You don't have time to change your mind.

819

:

And sometimes students do.

820

:

But then it's very, very

difficult to switch.

821

:

Geri: Yes.

822

:

Is there anything we haven't...

823

:

talked about that you'd just

like to add or any, or any

824

:

final thoughts or reflections?

825

:

Irina: I'm always at odds

with the academic career.

826

:

On the one hand, I think it's brilliant.

827

:

You get to think about things and

read because it's kind of amazing.

828

:

That's part of our job.

829

:

And write, and argue, and

have amazing conversations

830

:

with incredibly smart people.

831

:

And we travel a lot, and we know people

all over the world, and it's amazing.

832

:

But there's some days where I just

want a job where I can just do the job

833

:

and go home and not think about it.

834

:

And I realized that sometimes

I just have to do that.

835

:

Sometimes I have to treat my academic

career as a job for a little while.

836

:

And that's okay too.

837

:

Geri: Yeah, that's definitely okay.

838

:

Wow.

839

:

Irina: Thank you for letting

me talk about all of this.

840

:

Geri: Thank you for being

vulnerable enough to share.

841

:

I can imagine it will help a lot

of people just go, ah, it's okay.

842

:

That they're okay, that they may be

feeling this, or that they're okay, that

843

:

they might just need to say, I can't do it

anymore for the moment and to step back.

844

:

Irina: I would not have been able to

go through that quite as well as I did.

845

:

If I didn't have a conversation

with Pernille Bjørn about

846

:

it, which she said, I fell.

847

:

And they caught me.

848

:

Try it.

849

:

It's okay.

850

:

I would not have been able

to do it without that.

851

:

[Someone's giving you

permission just to be human].

852

:

When I walked into Kasper's office

and he said okay, and the next week I

853

:

wasn't teaching anymore, I was in shock.

854

:

I was in complete and utter shock.

855

:

That that was possible [That people

would be supportive] that that that he

856

:

would do that and it was possible to

do and it would just happen like that

857

:

Geri: And may we all do that for each

other just being there reassuring and

858

:

saying that it's okay So all the very

best navigating your fall and making

859

:

ongoing choices that prioritise you

so that you can bring your wonderful

860

:

best self to making the difference

you want to make in the research

861

:

that you're doing, in the work.

862

:

So thank you Irina.

863

:

Irina: Thank you for letting me have

this, for being part of your project too.

864

:

I've been listening to them a lot and so

it's kind of amazing to be part of it.

865

:

[I'm really glad you are, thank you].

866

:

Thank you.

867

:

Geri: What a compelling story.

868

:

I'm so grateful to Irina

for her vulnerability and

869

:

honesty in sharing with us.

870

:

It's a salient reminder that

if we want to be here in the

871

:

longer term, doing great work.

872

:

We need to be much more reflective

about the pressures we might

873

:

be putting ourselves under.

874

:

And make sure that we

look after ourselves now.

875

:

And this can involve often

making wise and hard choices.

876

:

It's also a salient reminder that

burnout doesn't happen in a vacuum.

877

:

What we do at faculty

department group level matters.

878

:

For how we support one another.

879

:

And how we talk about

these sorts of issues.

880

:

And of course there are also the

bigger structural issues, especially

881

:

around our performance-based academic

cultures that need to change.

882

:

If we are to better

support wellbeing at scale.

883

:

So take care.

884

:

Take a break.

885

:

And remember you are enough.

886

:

You do enough And it is good enough

887

:

You can find the summary notes,

a transcript, and related

888

:

links for this podcast on www.

889

:

changingacademiclife.

890

:

com.

891

:

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,,

892

:

Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

893

:

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

894

:

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

895

:

we can do academia differently.

896

:

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

897

:

And if something connected with you,

please consider sharing this podcast

898

:

with your colleagues together.

899

:

We can make change happen.

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About the Podcast

Changing Academic Life
What can we do, individually and collectively, to change academic life to be more sustainable, collaborative and effective? This podcast series offers long-form conversations with academics and thought leaders who share stories and insights, as well as bite-size musings on specific topics drawing on literature and personal experience.
For more information go to https://changingacademiclife.com
Also see https://geraldinefitzpatrick.com to leave a comment.
NOTE: this is an interim site and missing transcripts for the older podcasts. Please contact me to request specific transcripts in the meanwhile.

About your host

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Geraldine Fitzpatrick

Geraldine Fitzpatrick (Geri Fitz), is an awarded Professor i.R. at TU Wien, with degrees in Informatics, and in Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology, after a prior career as a nurse/midwife. She has International experience working in academic, research, industry and clinical settings. She is a sought-after facilitator, speaker, trainer and coach who cares about creating environments in which people can thrive, enabling individual growth, and creating collegial collaborative cultures. She works with academics and professionals at all levels, from senior academic leaders, to mid and early career researchers, to PhD students. She is also a mentor for academics and has been/is on various Faculty evaluation panels and various International Advisory Boards. An example of a course is the Academic Leadership Development Course for Informatics Europe, run in conjunction with Austen Rainer, Queens Uni Belfast. She also offers bespoke courses.