Mobility, pensions and you, yes you! (solo)

Geri: 00:00:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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Welcome to this short episode.

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Today.

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I want to reflect a little bit

about the issues of mobility.

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And we've been hearing quite

a lot about mobility in some

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of the recent conversations.

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And related to this, I want

to talk about pensions.

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Now, please don't turn off just yet.

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Just because you think this isn't for you.

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Because that's going to be the

very point I want to make today.

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And that is that this is something we

should all be thinking about from early

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on, especially in relation to mobility.

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And I'll be sharing my own

experiences of this because I

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didn't think about it so clearly.

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So to revisit.

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We've talked about mobility and academia

and the value of mobility for things like

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networking for getting new perspectives.

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For seeing the way different

groups operate different labs,

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operate, seeing how systems.

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Are in different countries and so on.

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And indeed mobility is often perceived

as being valuable in our CVS.

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For better or worse.

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So these experiences in different

countries, different contexts, we've

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heard about in the discussions with Sarah

Davies and Suzanne Bødker just recently

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where they talked about the value they

experienced around mobility and the value

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of being able to visit other places.

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In their different ways and the

opportunities for networking and

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research and career building.

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And indeed Karen Stroobants also talks

about a different type of mobility

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story, not just moving countries, but

also moving sectors where she moved from

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research into doing more policy work.

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And recognizing the value

of mobility in academia.

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We can also see that there are starting

to be more policy level initiatives.

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For example, in the EU, there are

activities going on at European level

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to develop some council recommendations

on a European framework to attract

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and retain talents in Europe.

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And some of the issues that these

recommendations are trying to address are

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around how to stimulate mobility and how

to better support mobility across sectors.

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This is, this is something that's

still under discussion and negotiation.

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They talk about different

types of mobility.

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So it's mobility across sectors,

such as between industry and

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academia or academia to policy.

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As we heard with Karen.

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It can also mean mobility across

geographies, moving countries.

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And it can mean mobility

across disciplines.

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Where people may shift the

disciplinary areas of their work.

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As we heard with Sarah.

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And we've had many examples.

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Other examples in the stories told

in the podcast of people who've done

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this mobility across disciplines and

across geographies in particular.

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So it's, it's quite a

common story that we hear.

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And so this EU recommendation,

will be looking at how we might

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go about more targeted training

and skills development for people

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to support them in the mobility.

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And also very rightly.

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Um, how we might better recognize the

diverse skills, especially when it

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comes to the assessment of researchers.

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And this is important because we know

that a lot of the research points

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to the fact that people with very

mixed CVs mixed career profiles,

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, moving sectors in particular.

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Can often find it harder to be valued

equally as someone who stayed in

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the one sector in one discipline.

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So there are lots of positives to

mobility where it's possible for you

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and also creative ways of getting

the benefits of mobility, where you

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can't be fully moving to different

countries and different situations.

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And Susanne was a great example of

this, where she was employed in Aarhus

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university for 40 years but she also

was able to engage in mobility in

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creative ways through visits through

sabbaticals and so on and so still

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able to derive the value that you

get for networking and research

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However, we've also heard about

the shadow sides of mobility,

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and we know that they exist.

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So Sarah's experiences also pointed to

the fact that a lot of mobility choices

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that she made were related to issues

of short-term contracts and that whole

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precarious postdoc experience and needing

to be able to travel to follow jobs.

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Also sometimes we know mobility.

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Isn't always the first choice or

may not be possible for people.

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And Susanne's story reminds us that not

everyone is able to be mobile in that way.

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And this may be because of issues around

partners or family responsibilities.

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Or just personal preference for wanting to

stay living in a particular place as home.

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But there are also other consequences

and costs around mobility.

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So some of Sarah's discussions pointed

to the practical dislocation of

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having to get settled somewhere new

of setting up a new place of living,

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getting familiar with different lab,

culture, different geographical culture.

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Building new social connections and so on.

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And of course there are also

probably lots of very practical

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financial costs involved.

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And I can attest to all of

these different sorts of costs

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in the moving that we've done.

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That I'll talk about soon.

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And there are yet.

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Other consequences of mobility, but I

hadn't ever really taken seriously or

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thought of, and that's around pensions.

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And that's an issue for me now

because I've just shifted into

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a new status in my career.

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Because we have mandatory

retirement, at my institution.

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So my formal employment as a

professor at TU Wien has finished,

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finished end of September.

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And so pension has suddenly

become an issue that I've had

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to take into consideration.

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And now I've done some moving myself

across geographies and sectors.

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I've worked in Australia as a

nurse and a midwife before I

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did my computer science degree.

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And then I did my PhD and I

worked as a researcher there.

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I've worked in the UK in industry

and then moved to a university

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position and I've worked in Austria.

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And I recognize that I have been

very privileged here, in that

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we've had much more flexibility

about moving than many people.

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As we weren't able to have kids.

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So we didn't have the complexities

that, having families often

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bring into the issues of mobility.

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And so we can see that in this

case, there are pluses and

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minuses for every situation.

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It's still one of the things I really

never thought about with the consequences

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of moving across countries is about how do

I accumulate a good enough pension fund to

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support our later years or my later years?

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And I think this is especially

tricky when you're working across

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multiple countries and regions.

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And with very different systems

that operate in very different ways.

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So my main message here is going

to be, think, and plan now.

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And I'm going to go on and just

tell a little bit more of my

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specific situation to illustrate.

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As I said, I worked in Australia, then

I moved to the UK and the motivation for

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moving to the UK was not so much career

driven, but more about, a health issue in

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my husband's family, who were in Ireland.

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And we wanted to be closer

to the family at that time.

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And this situation happened to coincide

with an opportunity for me to work as

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a user experience consultant in London.

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So pension was the last

consideration here.

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It was all about being closer to family

and the sort of job I was going into.

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And then at some time later on, as I

said, I moved from industry to academia.

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So sometime later on, I was in academia

in the UK, but I was encouraged to apply

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for this professor position in Austria.

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So, of course I thought I had no chance.

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And, when I was finally offered the

position, I had to really take some

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time to consider before saying yes.

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But again, pension didn't even make

it onto the, the whole for and

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against list that you tend to do it

at these sorts of decision points.

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And I moved.

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Because it was an opportunity

for promotion into this professor

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role , and also, yeah, it was

interesting having the opportunity

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to live somewhere very different.

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So in making these decisions

to move to these different

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places, to move across sectors.

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. Pension never factored into

any of the decisions.

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And of course like the idea of a pension

just seems so far off, certainly something

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really ridiculous to even think about.

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And of course also the fact that there

were some default systems in place in

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the different countries or companies

that you went to and institutions that

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you went to, you, you just walked in and

accepted the schemes that were on offer

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and paid into them as was required.

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But what I'm finding now is a lot

of the minutia of having pensions

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across different countries.

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Can be really problematic.

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For example, one issue is that

different countries often

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have different pensionable ages

at which people can retire.

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And when they can start

collecting their pension payments.

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So in Austria, that's at 65 in the

UK at 66 and in Australia at 67.

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So, what that means is if you are reliant

in some way, Upon the accumulation of

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funds from different countries that you

want to bring together in order to live.

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You're going to have gaps in funding for

those years until the pensionable age in

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all those different countries kicks in.

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There's also the issue that all

the different countries have very

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different systems and regulations

around their pension schemes.

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So, In Australia in the time that I was

working there, there was a move to a

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much more a self-funded pension scheme

through what they call superannuation.

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And the government pension scheme is

really just for people who really need it.

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So there's a lot more flexibility and

freedom there about when people can start

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drawing upon their own contributions

to their own superannuation scheme.

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However, one of the complications.

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In this situation is that.

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Those contributions when they're

drawn on by people living

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in Australia, are tax-free.

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But if they get drawn on by people living

like myself, living outside of Australia,

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you have to pay tax on it locally.

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Even though you've already

paid tax before contributing.

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So that's an issue.

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In other countries, there can be

minimum periods for making contributions

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before you're entitled to a pension.

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In the UK, I worked for

a total of nine years.

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And it's 10 years as their magic

number of years of minimal.

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Years paying into the system

before receiving a pension.

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And similarly in Austria, the minimum

number of years for paying into

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the system before being eligible to

receive a state pension is 15 years.

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And by the end of September,

this year, I was at 14 years.

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So one year shortfall in both countries.

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Now, of course, there are often specific

agreements between countries about

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this and, and within the EU here,

for example, there are arrangements

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where the years in one European

country can be counted in some way

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with the years in another country, so

that there's an overall eligibility.

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However, the processes for finding

out about all these and getting all of

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it determined are really non-trivial.

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I know too, that Austria has some

sort of government government

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arrangement with Australia.

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And I'm still trying to

get my head around that.

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And it is a complex process.

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I submitted a form in September, 2022

requesting information about what would

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be my situation, what I might receive

ension come end of September,: 2023

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And, I had to document the fact that

I'd worked in Australia and worked in

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the UK and provide all of those details.

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And I'm still waiting for an

answer, despite lots of follow-up.

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And I know it's complicated for them

too, because they're having to go to

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these different countries where I've

lived and get their public servants

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in the appropriate departments to

provide information to them on my case.

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So that the Austrian pension

scheme can make their determination.

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So I'm very grateful that I'm not

relying on that sort of pension payment.

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Now this week to pay my rent or to eat.

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Because, as I said, I'm still

waiting for information.

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It's a long bureaucratic process,

and it's also just really hard to

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work out how to navigate it, despite

trying to get advice and help.

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Now when I did move to Austria, I

do remember that there was a bit of

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a short discussion about the fact

that my time in the UK would count

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because I would only have 14 years at

the point of a mandatory retirement.

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So it was something that was brought up.

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So I can't say there was

no discussion about it.

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But I can say that I really

didn't appreciate the nuances

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and consequences of that.

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And I certainly didn't

negotiate around this at all.

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So just to reassure, I

am able to pay my rent.

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We've been able to find a bit of an

Austrian workaround solution where I've

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been able to continue working at the

university in a sort of a self-funded

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way at part time for another 12 months.

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So at least that will enable me to get

the full 15 years in austria paying

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into the system and it's one country's

pension that i can be more confident about

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so I just wanted to share my story

because I know that something like

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pension just seems so far off.

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And even for me, I think up until

the moment at the end of September.

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It still seemed far off.

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Cause I'm just way too young for

this, but nevertheless, it is

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a reality of life and it is a

reality of the costs of my academic

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intersectoral inter geography mobility.

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And I want to suggest that it is

something that we should all be trying

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to pay more attention to, especially

where we are mobile or especially

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way we might be supporting people.

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Doing some of that crossing,

doing some of that mobile work.

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So, what I would encourage people to

do moving forward is if you are going

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to be academically mobile in some way,

And, I know that different countries

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will have all sorts of other different

complications than the examples in my

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specific case, but just to make sure that

this is something that you do think about.

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And talk about with your next employer.

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And also seek expert advice about

how you might mitigate some of the

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negative consequences of mobility.

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In my case, for example, I wonder if

I could have negotiated at the signing

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of the contract to join TU for a

special exemption to work a 15th

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year to get around this limitation.

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It's all moot now, of course.

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And there may be other plans

or other ways that you could

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mitigate some of the implications.

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My encouragement is just to think

about it, discuss it and seek

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expert advice and to include it

as part of your negotiations.

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I can also end on a more positive

note here, because at least for people

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within the EU, there's now at the EU

level, a pension fund called re saver.

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And I'll include a link

to it in the show notes.

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And from what I can understand

about it, I'm not an expert at all.

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It seems to have been something

that was set up from a new EU

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directive back in December, 2016.

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If I read all the webpages correctly.

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And the whole idea of it is to

precisely address some of the issues

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that I've just reported on and, to

quote from their website, it's about

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providing a reliable pension scheme

that fosters mobility and helps

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institutions attract the best talent.

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And by enabling mobile researchers

to keep their pension arrangements

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while changing countries and jobs.

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And it offers a defined contribution

and tailored plan for research

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organizations and their employees.

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So again, from what I understand,

it's the organizations that need

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to be signed up to ReSaver in order

for you as an individual employee,

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to be able to take advantage of it.

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But at least it's encouraging, isn't it?

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That at least this sort of cross

country, regional area, there's some

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consideration and support of this.

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And it's not just encouraging mobility

across sectors, across disciplines,

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across geographies, but also putting

in place some of the practical

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supports that make it feasible.

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And that address the real sort

of actual costs of doing this,

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particularly in the longer term.

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So that's it for today.

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Just some food for

thought for your future.

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You can find the summary notes,

a transcript, and related

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links for this podcast on www.

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changingacademiclife.

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com.

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You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

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Spotify, and Google Podcasts.

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And you can follow

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And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

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we can do academia differently.

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And you can contribute to this by rating

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