Katta Spiel (Part 1) on career uncertainties, gender identity and health issues
Dr Katta Spiel is an Assistant Professor at TU Wien, a recent ERC Starting Grant recipient, and a good colleague of mine.
In the first part of this two-part conversation Katta shares their experiences on a range of topics like career uncertainty, rejection of proposals, coming out as queer, having a formal gender change, dealing with chronic health issues, and being successful in receiving a prestigious research council grant. Dr. Spiel's struggles and successes reflect their unyielding effort to change academic life for the better. An emphasis is also placed on the importance of authenticity and uncompromised approach when applying for grants. Part two of the conversation with Katta will delve deeper into the topic of neurodivergence and their ADHD experiences.
Overview:
0:00 Introduction
02:42 Navigating Identity and Academia
07:06 Exploring Alternative Career Paths
09:37 The Journey to Recognition and Success
10:34 Challenges and Triumphs in Grant Applications
23:07 Understanding the Difference Between Access and Accessibility
25:48 Personal Journey of Gender Identity and Health
33:58 Experiences with Chronic Health Issues
38:10 The Impact of Body Shape on Medical Treatment
40:16 The Role of Technology in Access and Inclusion
43:23 End
Related Links:
Katta's personal web page, TU Wien web page, LinkedIn page, and announcement about their ERC Starting Grant
People: Raja Kushalnager, Christian Vogler , Abraham Glasser
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy
Transcript
Welcome to Changing Academic Life.
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:I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is
a podcast series where academics and
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:others share their stories, provide
ideas, and provoke discussions about what
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:we can do individually and collectively
to change academic life for the better.
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:Welcome to part one of
my conversation with Dr.
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:Katta Spiel.
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:Who's an assistant professor from
the technical university of Vienna.
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:Or TU Wien as is our English name.
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:As full disclosure, Katta is a
valued colleague of mine at TU Wien.
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:And I was also the co-supervisor
back in the day when they did their
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:PhD . So it is a little bit challenging
interviewing someone so close, but
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:I felt like Katta just has so much
to share on so many different topics
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:that it would be worth giving it a go.
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:So in part one here Katta shares their
experiences of, a range of topics
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:covering things like career uncertainty.
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:Having proposals rejected.
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:Navigating coming out as queer and
having a formal gender change and also
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:dealing with some chronic health issues.
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:And in the middle of all this they've
also been really successful by some
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:external measures, including having just
been recently awarded a very prestigious
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:European research council grant.
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:In part two, we'll go on then to
further discuss their experiences
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:and, and this time focusing more on
neurodivergence and embracing that.
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:So getting started here on part one.
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:You may need some context to make sense
of the beginning of our conversation.
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:So I had wanted to interview
Katta quite a while ago.
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:But they had said previously that they
didn't really feel safe to share these
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:various aspects of their identities
while they were still on the job market.
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:And so Katta starts here bouncing
off my introduction about us.
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:Finally, getting to sit down to chat.
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:And starts off reflecting on
the uncertainties of not having
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:a permanent position and, why
they felt unsafe to chat.
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:Great that we could finally sit
down and have this chat Katta
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:. Thank you for doing it with me.
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:Do you just want to introduce yourself?
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:Katta: So, yeah, it meant it has
been a while also because I didn't
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:feel too, too safe about like.
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:The bunch of identities that I can,
like, you know, be vaguely, or could
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:for a long time be vaguely, um, like,
there was plausible deniability about
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:a bunch of them, and I, um, as long as
I felt like I was kind of dependent on
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:the job market and on, on kind of other
things, I didn't feel too, too comfortable
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:necessarily talking about these things,
and then, you know, just life and things.
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:Because, like, at some point I wrote
all these papers about these things,
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:and then I was like, It was public
knowledge, if people looked close enough.
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:And I mean
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:Geri: We will talk about those
identities in a tick for people who
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:are wondering what they might be.
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:Katta: But I guess, like, one of the
biggest things, honestly, why I would
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:do that now is because, and it sounds
so weird, But now I'm happy to talk
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:about academia or whatever, um, because
I don't feel like this is the only
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:thing I can do anymore, and like, I
don't feel I'm dependent on my peers
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:judgment or what have you, or like,
even within the faculty, there is a
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:freedom, like, you know, being like, what
are you gonna do, not give me tenure?
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:Okay, I can do other things, like,
I don't need this, I can go to other
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:places if I wanted to, or like, You
know, just having that kind of, like,
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:standing is, is incredibly liberating.
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:Geri: So, what particularly
led to that sense of standing
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:or having other possibilities?
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:Katta: So, I mean, they always keep on
saying, like, you should have a plan B
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:that is at least as attractive as plan A.
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:And I was kind of like,
but it's like so true.
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:Like, the thing is, like, I, I kind of
felt for a long time that I Um, that
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:I couldn't do anything else other than
academia and like, you know, because
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:like it was always like, why is my
other option doing like UX interfaces
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:for banks, which, you know, is like, is
absolutely valid as a career and it's
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:like something, it's just not for me.
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:Like I didn't see myself there.
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:Right.
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:And it just didn't ring with me.
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:And I, I kind of like felt
like I was so removed from.
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:From like my core studies and like went
so deep into a niche that I wouldn't
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:necessarily be able like that's not even
true I have learned that since then too,
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:but like I Kind of like was so in that
system that I felt like there was no
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:But like I was so much in that system I
kind of felt like there was no other way
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:to do this and then I, I think the moment
that I always relate to in that regard
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:was when I had COVID for the first time.
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:Um, because I was really sick.
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:Um, and then my partner got sick and I had
to like do all the childcare duty as well.
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:And so like, you know, um, it was
just like, it was only like two or
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:three weeks, but like only because
I had longer health scares before,
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:but like it was just two or three
weeks, but I couldn't really do a lot.
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:And I came back to it and I had
a rejection that was based on.
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:For a funding proposal that started
with a sentence that was basically
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:like queer theory has nothing
to do with academia That's okay.
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:Like we can have that discussion, but
then you shouldn't evaluate my proposal.
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:I had the feeling there was a lot of
pressure from peers as to because I
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:was involved in conference organization
and And I had felt that pressure of
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:like, you know Why weren't you around?
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:And I was like, I was sick.
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:But also there's like a different kind
of culture around that internationally.
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:I feel sometimes particularly
stemming from the U.
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:S.
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:I'm going to say that.
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:Like it's not even people.
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:It's just like, you know, there's
like, you see the system there is
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:so much different compared to here
when it comes to kind of like taking
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:time off or like, you know, you
have kind of this focus on self care
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:because there is no systemic care.
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:And like, you can see that being
perpetrated even incidentally.
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:Right.
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:And so I had the feeling I had let people
down because, um, because everybody
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:was expecting me to work through COVID,
which like didn't make any sense to
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:me because like, I was really Sick..
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:And then, um, and then that
happened and that happened.
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:And then I felt like, you know, I, uh,
that was done also briefly after that.
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:Um, uh, there was the announcement
that they didn't have money at
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:the university anymore for the
job that I'm sitting in now.
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:Like they found the money again,
but like, I essentially stood
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:there like, it's going to happen.
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:And then I saw that there was, there
is like a study degree that you can
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:do, um, while you're holding a job.
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:In sign language interpretation and sign
language was kind of my covert project.
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:Because I could commit to
that when I didn't have to go
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:to conferences all the time.
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:And so, um, I saw the study degree.
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:I was like, this is way too early for me.
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:Like, I was not really good at signing.
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:I'm still like, you know, I'm okay.
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:I'm like, not, I'm not great at signing.
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:Um, I wouldn't say, but, um, Um, but I
felt it was a bit early for that move,
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:but it only happens every three years.
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:And so, and I was kind of like fed
up with that, like there was just so
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:much that happened kind of that I was
like, well, I'm going to try and if
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:not, then I can either try in three
years again, or like what is going
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:to happen other than I apply and they
say no, it's like the same situation.
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:And like, I didn't expect to get it.
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:Uh, and then I got in and I was
like, well, I guess I'm doing that
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:now into, into the study degree.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Geri: Were you thinking then
that the signing might be
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:an alternative career path?
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:Katta: Yes, exactly.
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:And even if, um, if I would stay in
academia, that could be something.
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:Like, Austria is very small.
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:So there are like 130 sign language
interpreters, um, in total.
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:And none of them are
either inter or trans.
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:And so, there are a handful of people who
are deaf and out as inter or trans, like,
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:it's not a lot of people, but they don't
have anyone necessarily relatable to.
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:And so I felt like that would still
be a service that I could do as a side
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:gig, even, like, where I would just be
available for specific instances there.
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:Where I just have kind of
that community experience.
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:Um, yeah.
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:Like, now I'm doing that and, uh, I, I
see myself maybe, you know, reducing my
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:hours at one point and do academia part
time, which I find an actually quite
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:attractive kind of like notion, right?
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:Like being like, Hey, how about I do
this, like, you know, 50 percent or
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:whatever and like do then the interpreting
or, you know, if I don't get tenure,
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:then I can just do it full time because
half of interpreting is research.
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:So it's like, mm.
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:Yep.
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:Yeah.
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:Same thing.
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:Geri: So, so many threads
to pick up on there.
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:And, uh, we've worked together
for a long time as well.
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:so trying to also think about
people who might not have the
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:shared background that we have.
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:Do you want to just give a little
bit more about your background in
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:terms of, you know, disciplinary
areas where you've come from?
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:Katta: Yeah.
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:So I've, uh, I've done
two bachelor degrees.
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:Um, uh, student by life,
uh, by profession or so.
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:No.
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:Um, anyway, uh, so yeah, I have two
bachelor degrees, one in cultural
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:studies and one in computer science.
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:And then I have a combined master
kind of with a focus on computer
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:science and actually cryptography.
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:Um, that was my jam.
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:And then I did a PhD here at TU Wien.
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:Um, I did the other degrees
in Weimar in Germany at the
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:Bauhaus, because it sounds fancy.
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:Um, and then, uh, yeah, then I was at
Leuven for a year, then I came back
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:here, um, with my own funding, and
then they said, like, cool funding
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:you got there, now you can have a
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:Geri: which was quite a
prestigious Austrian fellowship,
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:Katta: at least for us.
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:It was also interesting, because,
like, I do all these things
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:without thinking they are false.
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:That's true.
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:Like, no, it's actually funny because
like constantly I do things where I'm
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:like, that's never going to work out.
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:Like it was with the study degree,
but it was also with that funding.
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:I was like, cause I knew that
my legal gender would change
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:while they would evaluate it.
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:And it was funding that was
initially only for women.
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:And then, um, I was like, I want to see
what the system does when that happens.
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:Um, and like I informed them immediately
when my legal gender changed to,
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:um, in Germany it's called diverse.
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:We can talk about that, but like, you
know, a non binary gender, um, and I
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:informed them that that is the case,
and that I'm inter, and um, that it,
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:I leave it up to them how they're
going to deal with that situation.
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:They were like, noted,
we're going to discuss this.
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:And then it had apparently like, the,
the head of the funding body, which was
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:the national funding body in Austria, so.
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:It was a bit funny.
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:Yeah, so the, the, the curatorium,
it's how they're called, I think,
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:they have discussed your case and
you will be evaluated further.
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:And I was like, thanks, thank you.
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:And then I even got it.
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:And the funny thing about that is because,
like, I did write a proper proposal, like
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:it wasn't a joke proposal or anything,
but I wrote one that made no compromises
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:in terms of what I wanted to do.
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:Like, it didn't try to
pander to reviewers.
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:And then that was what
surprised me so much then that
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:I got it because I was like.
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:I was not trying to do any
of the strategic things.
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:And it was funny because later,
afterwards, I was one of the, like, you
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:know, people who have done it before
at an internal seminar here at TU Wien.
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:And so I listened to what they
suggested what you should do.
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:And it was things like, never
say you want to be with, like,
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:your advisor or whatever.
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:And I came back to the same institute
and you were my formal advisor back then.
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:And so I did that wrong and then
there were a bunch of things
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:that you could do wrong and I
basically did all of them wrong.
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:Geri: By, by playing the strategic game.
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:Yeah.
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:Those rules.
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:Katta: If you could, you could be more
strategic about it and I was just not.
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:And I was so surprised that it then
even like, even after the fact that it
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:worked out, but like, you know, it did.
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:Geri: Yeah.
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:It's interesting to think about
if it would have been, oh no,
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:you need a parallel universe.
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:If it would've been as successful
if you weren't as authentic
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:and, and uncompromising.
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:Katta: Yeah.
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:That is like then what I keep telling
people sometimes, like if you dare to
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:just, um, I shouldn't swear, but like , if
you dare to then just like, I guess like
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:do the thing that you want to, but I
know also that it's really difficult and.
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:And even I can only get there when I'm not
that afraid of like how it could work out.
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:Geri: Yeah, I was, I was just going to
say how much, um, of a factor did it
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:play that it wasn't something that you
really, really, really, really wanted, it
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:seemed like you held it quite lightly.
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:Katta: Yes.
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:Um, I mean, that was different with
the funding that I got recently
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:where I also didn't expect that
I would get it and also wrote it.
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:in a fairly uncompromising
fashion, but I did be, I did,
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:I was more strategic about it.
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:And it was a bit more nervous also
because it didn't only affect me.
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:And then it did suddenly.
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:And then, you know, it didn't again,
but, um, it's also about like, you know,
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:giving people the opportunity to work
in a field that they want to work in.
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:And, um, and so I, I took, um, I feel like
there, it was a bit different even, like,
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:even though I, I similarly kept on, held
on to some things, I, I remember that I,
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:for example, like, my early thing was, uh,
was titling it something around Crip Stuff
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:and all that, and I had, like, internal
people here from your, from support
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:services be like, well, at least people
will remember that, because, like, they
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:probably have not understood Crip Studies
necessarily, and, like, you're kind of,
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:like, going in with, like, a bang there.
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:And maybe you want to do a softer entry
and all that and I listened to that and
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:I did that and like it also worked out
but I'm not sure I would have necessarily
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:if I wouldn't have felt that that was
actually a thing that I would want if
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:it would follow through even though I
didn't believe that that and not even
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:for myself but like I know because you
said taking on their responsibility
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:Geri: You said that The value of
that grant in particular is all
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:the positions that it gives for
other people that you care about
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:and, and enabling their careers.
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:And we should just say that
this is an ERC, grant, which is
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:really incredibly prestigious in
Europe for those who don't know.
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:And so congratulations, Kata.
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:Katta: Yeah, um, yeah, I still haven't
like people keep on like you celebrate it.
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:Yeah, and I'm like, um, no
Not sure What's to celebrate?
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:So like yeah,
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:Geri: is it that it doesn't feel?
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:Real or what?
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:Katta: Well, I'm also like there's still
like things could still go wrong, right?
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:There is no grant agreement that has
been signed yet and like, you know Maybe
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:I've not been ethical enough with the
stuff and the EU is not going to tell
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:me they can't fund it because of ethics.
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:Geri: Although you did get a
reviewer comment that it was
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:one of the best ethics sections.
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:Katta: That was at the other
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:Geri: Ah, okay.
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:And you would have brought the same
sensitivities to this proposal as well.
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:Katta: Um, we'll see, right?
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:Um, there is some stuff that is
highly sensitive, so I mean, I also
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:appreciate good guidance on that.
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:Um, yeah, I just like that.
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:Geri: So would you give people the advice
about thinking carefully about being
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:authentic and uncompromising as, as you
can be in your proposals rather than,
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:I don't know, I guess the opposite is
what filling it with all the buzzwords
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:that you think are the trendy buzzwords.
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:Katta: Yeah.
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:But then there's also the
question, how well can you do
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:it if you just follow them?
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:Whatever, you know?
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:But I mean, the thing is it just
changes or it changed for me, or
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:where this is a different situation
when it's funding for yourself.
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:Like the first one.
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:Yeah.
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:Um, or if it's funding for like, you know.
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:other people as well.
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:And that was kind of the shift that
for me made a huge difference in
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:terms of like how much I cared and
how much I felt like, you know,
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:to tone down some of the aspects.
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:But I mean, it's still talking
about sex and disability.
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:Like I don't, I didn't
take myself out of it.
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:I do want to research stuff where, you
know, there are Um, a lot of taboos and
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:there are a lot of kind of like, you
know, uh, hush, hush, like not looking
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:at it so closely because we feel like,
you know, it's sensitive and all that.
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:I do want to go there still, like that's
not, that's not where I compromise,
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:but like how I talk about it has
been more compromising because, yeah.
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:Geri: But it still sounds like
a negotiated playing the risks.
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:Katta: Yes.
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:But also I have no filter, right?
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:Like, there's just like so
much I can do in that regard.
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:Um, there's like, I can say this
slightly different so you can hear
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:that and it still makes sense.
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:And like both are of our heads, so
to speak, with that imaginary other,
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:but um, but there's also a thing of
like, I want you to feel uncomfortable
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:a little bit or like, you know,
where just don't take that agenda.
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:Geri: But do it in a way that brings
the reviewers along with you in terms
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:of the arguments for the validity
of the science and the, and the
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:contributions and the importance of it.
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:Katta: And I mean, I'm not sure whether
I do that necessarily very well.
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:I looked at those reviews and it
was funny because you, with the
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:EU, you don't get them before
you have the oral presentation.
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:And it was so interesting because
I saw them and then I realized that
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:it was actually like just by chance
because I couldn't have known.
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:But by chance I had my 10 minute kind of
like, you know, presentation and I covered
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:90 percent of the critique and comments.
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:And I was like Well anticipated.
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:That was pretty smart, I guess.
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:But like, not to be planned for.
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:Geri: Were you able to do that because
of previous discussions you'd had with
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:support people or peers who gave feedback
on drafts who maybe sensitized you to what
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:some of the questions might have been?
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:Katta: Uh, yeah, I mean, I did that
internally like three or four times
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:because there was also another interviewer
involved, um, for a different funding
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:body that decided not to give me money.
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:Well, they're like, I sound a
bit miffed and I am, but that's
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:again, not necessarily for me.
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:But, um, but also, I mean, I keep on
saying we all think that our topics are
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:the most important because like you need
some kind of passion to go after them.
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:But just in the, in the state of things,
um, I found there was kind of a focus put
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:on specific kind of disciplines, um, to
the loss of anything that would qualify
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:as like, you know, humanities or like
deep kind of like engagements with like
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:culture as it is, um, or, or sociological
topics or just larger groups of people
341
:and how they operate within society.
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:And so, I mean, there was one
project that got awarded that was.
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:Coming close to that.
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:But like other than that, it was
very much, um, kind of like the
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:natural sciences for a funding
scheme that is across the board.
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:And I think, and that's not just about
me, I think it's like a loss to, um,
347
:to, uh, towards the community as such,
like the academic community as such,
348
:but also towards upcoming academics
and like people who might be interested
349
:in different ways of knowing and
bringing their stuff in that there
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:is like such a, such a solid focus.
351
:on, on very specific kind of projects.
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:So that was the shame because they also
get like a lot of publicity and these
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:topics are then set as important research
topics and like relevant things we wanted
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:to like, you know, research in Austria.
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:And I felt a bit like, of course,
also with my stuff with around access
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:and disability and like minority
bodies and all that, but also that
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:there was just like none of these
kind of like, you know, questions or.
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:Or considerations, um, that just
surprised me a little bit, I guess,
359
:that there was like little of that,
very little at least, um, to be fair.
360
:Geri: And especially when so many of
the challenges that we're dealing at
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:a societal level require such diverse
disciplinary perspectives to address
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:in more holistic, effective ways.
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:Maybe this will be a point of reflection
for funding bodies later on, who knows.
364
:But, you named your research agenda, uh,
just then really is about accessibility
365
:Katta: and, um, Well not
accessibility, it's access.
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:Geri: It's access and
disability and minority bodies.
367
:And those themes also seem to be
quite biographical for you as well.
368
:Katta: Well, to some
extent, not to all of them.
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:I also work with deaf people
nowadays because there aren't just
370
:enough other people who, um, like
where, I don't want to be arrogant.
371
:I don't know of, of anyone else
who has the level of signing that
372
:I have in my field, in Austria.
373
:Like in my field, yes,
there are deaf people.
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:Like there is Raja Kalnagaraga and
like Christian Vogler at Gallaudet
375
:and then there are people at RIT
who, who like do amazing work.
376
:Like Abraham Glasser and like,
you know, uh, like there are deaf
377
:people who have better levels of
signing and also do amazing research.
378
:Um, in Austria that, uh, is not the case.
379
:It's also there are differences
in the education system and
380
:all that and the change.
381
:But because of that, um, I do work with
deaf people, even though I'm hearing.
382
:And that's not autobiographical,
like the autobiographical stuff.
383
:Cause like you want it to go there now?
384
:Yeah,
385
:Geri: we can go there.
386
:Just first, can you just
clarify how you see access and
387
:accessibility as being different?
388
:Katta: Well, I actually have these
interesting also kind of like discussions
389
:because, um, and it's a work that
I'm currently still trying to get to
390
:the definitory like differences, but
essentially what I'm interested in and
391
:why I keep on focusing on access and I
don't see access as a one time thing.
392
:I see it as a process and as something
that you stay involved in, but also that
393
:is give like, not necessarily given to
you that is like to me, access is more
394
:of, um, Um, it's more of something that
is like attuned to how your body acts in
395
:the world and how you are acting within
your environment or other people, whereas
396
:accessibility is kind of like, um, an
afterthought a little bit or like, you
397
:know, a kind of like the special thought.
398
:So it's a bit like, um, It's a
bit like providing, um, and it's
399
:just going to be my example now
because we've talked about that.
400
:Just now, but, um, providing education
in sign language is something very
401
:different, like, when the, when the
teachers, like, illustrate things in
402
:sign language than when it goes through
interpreters, where you always have an
403
:indirect kind of, like, processing and,
like, uh, translation from even a logic
404
:that is geared towards a hearing audience
versus a logic that is more visual, like,
405
:you have these kind of things that, that
just, like, add on to, like, um, It's
406
:a way of interacting with the world.
407
:So, accessibility to me is kind of like
we have that norm of how we do things
408
:and then here is a way in for you.
409
:And access is to me that
you have the way in there.
410
:But like directly.
411
:Geri: Is access more person centered
and accessibility more thing centered?
412
:Katta: I'm not sure.
413
:I do wonder, like I, like, as I said,
like I'm currently very much like this
414
:is like ongoing thinky work, but um,
thinky work, that sounds very academic.
415
:Um, but like, uh, like that's where I
try to like get to the definitory, like
416
:grounding and all that, but yeah, um,
so that's what I've been thinking on.
417
:I'm not sure it's
necessarily person centered.
418
:I feel like even that access is
is, is more like intent and like
419
:interaction centred, ultimately,
whereas accessibility is like, can
420
:be thing or person centred really.
421
:Geri: So you, you've mentioned about,
um, getting a legal gender change during
422
:process of applying for a grant and that,
do you want to talk about that process?
423
:That whole experience of being
gender diverse and inter.
424
:Katta: Well, I mean, to an extent
that's just how I live my life, right?
425
:Like, so it's a bit normal for me.
426
:And I keep on saying that I actually
don't have a lot of interest in talking
427
:about it, but I have to continuously,
um, because of like all these systems
428
:requiring me to, um, To disclose a gender
that I don't have, um, but, uh, more to
429
:the point, um, it was very affirmative
to kind of like have, like that moment
430
:when I had that passport just, um, like
that because it was, it was validating my
431
:experiences in like some weird way, but,
um, so I've, uh, um, Um, I've been, uh,
432
:undergoing hormone therapy since I was
like nine or ten, um, without necessarily
433
:knowing that that was the case, or my
parents knowing that that was the case,
434
:um, and it followed back then medical
standards as well, um, to do it that
435
:way and also to keep people in the dark.
436
:So it's like, I'm not making
anyone, like, I'm not actually.
437
:That was a systems failure, right?
438
:And it also took me a while to understand
what was happening there either.
439
:And then end of my twenties or
so, like I always felt kind of
440
:like not belonging to any of that.
441
:And then I saw an intergroup in Germany
once and I was like, Huh, I kind of like
442
:feel like them, but I have like absolutely
no understanding of why that is.
443
:Because like, I didn't have surgeries.
444
:Well, I actually did, but later.
445
:And I wasn't even aware that
that also was related, but yeah.
446
:And, um, and anyway, uh, there was a
bunch of stuff where I had to kind of
447
:like piecemeal it together that that is
who I am, um, and, and what my actual
448
:like biological, so to speak, like what
my body does with my gender and like, so,
449
:or with my sex, even like, if you want to
make that differentiation, which I feel
450
:a bit uncomfortable about, but like my
body was just like, you know, not going.
451
:Um, Um, clearly one way or another,
especially like on a hormonal level.
452
:And then I stopped taking those
hormones and I felt so much better.
453
:Um, like there was like some, I
had several reasons of why I was
454
:chronically depressed for the longest
time of my life, but like one of
455
:those like lifted a little bit.
456
:And then, um, and then
I stopped doing that.
457
:And, um, that also meant that, you know,
Uh, at some point I stopped and shaving
458
:because like I had a beard actually
the entire time like less so with
459
:the hormones, but still it was there.
460
:Um, and then I stopped shaving.
461
:That was out of spite because, uh,
because one psychiatrist said like they
462
:don't believe in creating a reality
that just follows my imagination.
463
:And I was like, I'm going to show you
what my reality is because like, you
464
:know, I don't think you understand.
465
:Um, And, yeah, it also has been
filling in over the years, which
466
:is kind of neat because I like it.
467
:And, um, and then, uh, two years
ago, not quite, I had top surgery,
468
:and that was also very interesting
in that regard, because I, um, like,
469
:I had top surgery, and now I have
a flatter chest, which is great.
470
:But also, like, they came
back and were like, well, you
471
:kind of have artificial boobs.
472
:Which, like, there wasn't a
lot of kind of, like, you know.
473
:Classical, um, like, I didn't
have a lot of milk ducts, I
474
:think is the English word.
475
:And all that, like, it was more of a
classically male chest to begin with.
476
:And I was like, huh, so you mean, like,
if I wouldn't have taken all those
477
:hormones, I wouldn't have had, so this
was a corrective measure of actually
478
:just, like, creating [A corrective measure
of a supposedly corrective measure].
479
:Where somebody else, like, you know,
tried to, you know, adapt reality
480
:towards, you know, what wasn't the case.
481
:Um, but, like, yeah.
482
:Anyway, so, that was, uh, that was
kind of like the journey to now.
483
:Geri: So, you came out as queer
sort of during your PhD process.
484
:Katta: Yeah, um, I mean I was trying to
be plausible in my ability, like that is
485
:kind of like a thing that I tried for a
lot of things, but, there as well, because
486
:I didn't know what the community was like,
right, and like, I, in:
487
:conference and that was very much like
where it was recognizable to peers but not
488
:necessarily to non queer people, right?
489
:Like that was very noticeable for
me and that was kind of like where
490
:I wanted to be recognizable to
peers but not necessarily, you know,
491
:flying under the radar for others.
492
:Because I didn't know how safe
it was, or whether it was safe.
493
:And I can also say now,
it is safer and non safer.
494
:Like, not as safe as I wished it
would be, or thought it would be.
495
:So, both.
496
:So, don't think, like, and it's a strategy
that a lot of people might employ.
497
:Like, just like, you know,
testing the waters a bit.
498
:I mean, that was new for me, too.
499
:And in 2017, I did the same thing.
500
:And then I met others who were
also, like, doing the same thing.
501
:Who have since come out.
502
:Um, and then, um, and in 2018, there was
a keynote at a conference and it wasn't
503
:even at the keynote, which is so funny
because I haven't actually seen it.
504
:I just have seen the fallout.
505
:But the fallout from that was that
suddenly, everybody seemed to clock me,
506
:like, that plausible deniability went
away and I had to suddenly talk about
507
:gender all the time and had to talk
about myself or being queer or like,
508
:you know, non binary and all that and
like, because people were so angry and
509
:like, um, they also tried to find people
that could talk about this and were more
510
:alert towards like queer signage and I
suddenly felt myself having to explain
511
:but also to having kind of like, even
though I wasn't like, Like fully in the
512
:closet or anything, but like having to
more explicitly come out towards that.
513
:Um, and in the same year I also like,
you know, then wrote the, um, wrote a
514
:guidance for how to talk about gender
because I was angry about another
515
:paper, but that's actually unrelated.
516
:Um, with those authors, by the way,
which was really cool, just as a process,
517
:but we can talk about this later.
518
:Anyway, and like I had to,
um, I had then felt like.
519
:I wasn't even mad about the keynote
as such and I was definitely not
520
:mad at the general chairs who were
probably just like, you know, doing
521
:their best and trying to figure
out how to do a great conference.
522
:Um, and you know, we all kind of
like, I mean, I certainly haven't
523
:always done the right thing, right?
524
:Like, that's not the point.
525
:Um, I felt also that, to me, my conference
experience was definitely impacted in
526
:that I came to talk about, I think,
fitness trackers and like, you know,
527
:other work that I found cool that I
wanted to talk about and then I suddenly
528
:was pushed into, like, only talking
about gender in, in ways that I couldn't
529
:fully understand where I could go and
all that because, I At least I don't
530
:know of anyone else, I'm just thinking,
maybe one person, but like, um, I don't
531
:know that many people who are out as
inter in general, and then I don't know
532
:many in academia who are out as inter.
533
:And so that makes it really hard.
534
:Geri: And just for context for
people, um, the, the keynote.
535
:Touched upon issues or talked about a
dating app and, uh, so there was sort
536
:of issues in the, in the application
and more particularly the, the way
537
:the binary notions of gender that
were discussed in the ways in which
538
:those genders were talked about,
which triggered a lot of the thing.
539
:But
540
:Katta: I think there was also some
data, like how you interpret data
541
:and then generalize over that.
542
:And like, that just doesn't
cover people's experiences,
543
:which is just bad data science.
544
:Geri: So you also, talked about some
chronic health issues you touched upon
545
:that you've so you've been dealing
with this, with coming to feel more
546
:comfortable in your own identity and
finding your community, I guess, in a
547
:way from what you've said and then on
the other side, feeling safe enough to.
548
:Be authentic with that as well, sort
of more uncompromising with that.
549
:And similarly, you've been dealing
with some chronic health issues.
550
:Katta: Yeah, so if I would ever get to
a state where I would have, like this is
551
:very hypothetical, a full professorship in
Germany, I would not get the Verbeamtung,
552
:the thing of like, where you, um, where
you basically are, Like, I don't know
553
:how to describe that, but basically
it's a better status of employment that
554
:every other full prof has, because I
would be too ill, considered too ill.
555
:Yep.
556
:That's, uh, I feel discriminatory,
but like, you know.
557
:Geri: She says, having just got
an ERC, says they, oh, dear.
558
:They say,
559
:Katta: no, it's fine.
560
:It like happens, right?
561
:Um, I'm not even, yeah.
562
:Um, it's more like working on it.
563
:Geri: It is.
564
:It is Katta.
565
:So, is there anything about
navigating that process and the,
566
:around the chronic health issues?
567
:Katta: Well, yeah, I mean, I, I do
like to have more control and insight
568
:over my body than maybe others.
569
:Like, my sister always makes fun
of me that I have to measure my
570
:sugar levels like every 20 minutes
because otherwise I wouldn't live.
571
:Um, which is not necessarily the
case, but I do it quite often because
572
:I have a sense of, like, an innate
sense of, like, curiosity about data.
573
:But, um, but, uh, yeah, I mean.
574
:Uh, I, I've just had a
bunch of things happening.
575
:Like, um, my digestive system
is, is, um, is either in hyper
576
:or in hypo drive, I guess.
577
:And, um, um, yeah, just had
lots of surgery when I was,
578
:um, in, during my studies.
579
:Like, I basically spent a year in
hospital, um, because, like, I had some,
580
:um, Issues that also required surgeries.
581
:And then I got painkillers that I then
ended up reacting allergic to, even though
582
:that is like extremely unlikely to happen.
583
:And it was caught really late.
584
:And then I already had a sepsis as well.
585
:And so my immune system was down,
uh, additionally to that, like I
586
:didn't have any white blood cells
and that was all very dramatic.
587
:And.
588
:It was all very dramatic.
589
:Yeah, that is really serious.
590
:Oh, yeah, yeah.
591
:Um, no, no, I don't want to,
um, but, like, you know, it's
592
:also been 15 years, 14 years.
593
:Yeah.
594
:Um, and, um, so the distance helps.
595
:But, like, yeah, so I had, uh,
I had these health issues back
596
:then, and they, and then the, that
doesn't mean that the digestive
597
:system was still, like, you know.
598
:Um, acting up and that took a few years
to kind of like come to a stage where
599
:I'm at now ish, where it's a Knock on
wood, like, but I didn't have any surgery
600
:related to that in the last five years
and I was like, whoo, what is happening?
601
:And before that I had up to 10, 15
surgeries a year, like one year was really
602
:intense and Yeah But, like, that is also
interesting because I don't have a fixed
603
:diagnosis on any of that even though,
like, there are a lot of implications.
604
:Geri: A lot of interventions.
605
:A lot of physical issues and,
and the diabetes as well.
606
:Katta: Oh, yeah.
607
:But the diabetes is new to us.
608
:Yeah.
609
:But I had to, like, that is, like,
as a fat person, I'm going to tell
610
:you, the medical system is a freak.
611
:Now I sound like a conspiracy person,
but, like, that's not what I mean.
612
:It's just so interesting because the
diabetes is such a classical thing where
613
:I would say like, you know, and it's
often that you know It's said that you
614
:know weight, you know, I said a lot
there But it's said that weight is a
615
:risk factor for diabetes And that's not
actually necessarily clear because the
616
:excess insulin with diabetes too that you
produce can and I have type 2 as far as
617
:we know and But the excess insulin that
you produce is actually an anabolica, so,
618
:um, or it falls in the group of anabolica.
619
:And then, uh, that means you
actually have weight gain, right?
620
:So it can be also an effect
and usually it's like a self,
621
:like, um, both is, um, like.
622
:And then, um, but that is the case, right?
623
:And I gained weight and like I
kept on saying to doctors, isn't
624
:the sugar level a little bit high?
625
:And they were like, well, a
little bit, but you're fat.
626
:And they were like kind of ignoring
it for so long that I had to.
627
:Go to the ER at one point and that
shouldn't happen with type 2 because I was
628
:almost in a diabetic coma because I had
so much sugar in my In my bloodstream And
629
:again, that shouldn't be happening with
type 2 at all And yeah, so I was ignored
630
:even though I was kind of like already
Hinting towards that and even with that
631
:kind of like, so I sometimes feel like
the lack of diagnosis when, when there's
632
:clearly like a lot of interventions
is also because people keep on putting
633
:it towards the shape of my body,
which is not necessarily, um, helpful.
634
:Yeah.
635
:But, you know, that's that.
636
:It's really hard to get
good care when you're fat.
637
:Geri: Yeah.
638
:You've also commented even on a lot of
the interaction technologies that we are
639
:designing and dealing with and how they
don't, allow access for diverse bodies.
640
:Katta: Yeah.
641
:Yeah.
642
:I mean, you could, um, I mean, most,
this has changed actually since then,
643
:but like most fitness trackers for a long
time did only allow for binary genders.
644
:Um, or, um, or like how, um, a lot of
the, like a lot of those, um, and in this
645
:case it's not even, well, it depends.
646
:Sorry, I'm thinking faster than I
speak again and that causes breaks.
647
:But.
648
:So in a lot of cases, weight loss
is seen as the ultimate goal,
649
:which can be quite damaging.
650
:Um, especially when people, um, have made
experiences with eating disorders and are
651
:then, you know, prone to kind of like tap
into that again as a source of control.
652
:Geri: It brings up this notion of what
we assume is normative, approaches
653
:to all sorts of things, whether it's
Academia, gender filling in on forms,
654
:um, goals for fitness trackers and so on.
655
:Yeah.
656
:And also with all of this, you also
talk about being neurodivergent.
657
:Yes.
658
:And I, I'm sitting here watching Katta,
do cross stitching as, as we're speaking.
659
:Katta: Yeah.
660
:.
Geri: And this is where we will leave it for part one.
661
:I just want to acknowledge the additional
work that Katta has to do to assert their
662
:rightful identity because of my mistake
in mis-gendering them and I'm grateful
663
:to Katta for their patience and gracious
generosity in how they corrected me.
664
:So keep an eye open or should I say,
keep an ear open for part two, where
665
:category goes on to discuss how near
a divergence plays out for them.
666
:You can find the summary
notes, a transcript and related
667
:links for this podcast on www.
668
:changingacademiclife.
669
:com.
670
:You can also subscribe to
Changing Academic Life on iTunes,
671
:Spotify and Google Podcasts.
672
:And you can follow
ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.
673
:And I'm really hoping that we can
widen the conversation about how
674
:we can do academia differently.
675
:And you can contribute to this by rating
the podcast and also giving feedback.
676
:And if something connected with
you, please consider sharing this
677
:podcast with your colleagues.
678
:Together, we can make change happen.