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Episode 13

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Published on:

13th Dec 2023

Katta Spiel (Part 1) on career uncertainties, gender identity and health issues

Dr Katta Spiel is an Assistant Professor at TU Wien, a recent ERC Starting Grant recipient, and a good colleague of mine. 

In the first part of this two-part conversation Katta shares their experiences on a range of topics like career uncertainty, rejection of proposals, coming out as queer, having a formal gender change, dealing with chronic health issues, and being successful in receiving a prestigious research council grant. Dr. Spiel's struggles and successes reflect their unyielding effort to change academic life for the better. An emphasis is also placed on the importance of authenticity and uncompromised approach when applying for grants. Part two of the conversation with Katta will delve deeper into the topic of neurodivergence and their ADHD experiences.

Overview:

0:00 Introduction

02:42 Navigating Identity and Academia

07:06 Exploring Alternative Career Paths

09:37 The Journey to Recognition and Success

10:34 Challenges and Triumphs in Grant Applications

23:07 Understanding the Difference Between Access and Accessibility

25:48 Personal Journey of Gender Identity and Health

33:58 Experiences with Chronic Health Issues

38:10 The Impact of Body Shape on Medical Treatment

40:16 The Role of Technology in Access and Inclusion

43:23 End

Related Links:

Katta's personal web page, TU Wien web page, LinkedIn page, and announcement about their ERC Starting Grant

People: Raja Kushalnager, Christian Vogler , Abraham Glasser



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy
Transcript
Geri:

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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Welcome to part one of

my conversation with Dr.

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Katta Spiel.

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Who's an assistant professor from

the technical university of Vienna.

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Or TU Wien as is our English name.

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As full disclosure, Katta is a

valued colleague of mine at TU Wien.

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And I was also the co-supervisor

back in the day when they did their

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PhD . So it is a little bit challenging

interviewing someone so close, but

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I felt like Katta just has so much

to share on so many different topics

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that it would be worth giving it a go.

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So in part one here Katta shares their

experiences of, a range of topics

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covering things like career uncertainty.

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Having proposals rejected.

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Navigating coming out as queer and

having a formal gender change and also

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dealing with some chronic health issues.

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And in the middle of all this they've

also been really successful by some

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external measures, including having just

been recently awarded a very prestigious

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European research council grant.

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In part two, we'll go on then to

further discuss their experiences

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and, and this time focusing more on

neurodivergence and embracing that.

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So getting started here on part one.

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You may need some context to make sense

of the beginning of our conversation.

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So I had wanted to interview

Katta quite a while ago.

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But they had said previously that they

didn't really feel safe to share these

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various aspects of their identities

while they were still on the job market.

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And so Katta starts here bouncing

off my introduction about us.

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Finally, getting to sit down to chat.

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And starts off reflecting on

the uncertainties of not having

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a permanent position and, why

they felt unsafe to chat.

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Great that we could finally sit

down and have this chat Katta

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. Thank you for doing it with me.

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Do you just want to introduce yourself?

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Katta: So, yeah, it meant it has

been a while also because I didn't

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feel too, too safe about like.

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The bunch of identities that I can,

like, you know, be vaguely, or could

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for a long time be vaguely, um, like,

there was plausible deniability about

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a bunch of them, and I, um, as long as

I felt like I was kind of dependent on

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the job market and on, on kind of other

things, I didn't feel too, too comfortable

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necessarily talking about these things,

and then, you know, just life and things.

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Because, like, at some point I wrote

all these papers about these things,

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and then I was like, It was public

knowledge, if people looked close enough.

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And I mean

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Geri: We will talk about those

identities in a tick for people who

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are wondering what they might be.

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Katta: But I guess, like, one of the

biggest things, honestly, why I would

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do that now is because, and it sounds

so weird, But now I'm happy to talk

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about academia or whatever, um, because

I don't feel like this is the only

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thing I can do anymore, and like, I

don't feel I'm dependent on my peers

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judgment or what have you, or like,

even within the faculty, there is a

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freedom, like, you know, being like, what

are you gonna do, not give me tenure?

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Okay, I can do other things, like,

I don't need this, I can go to other

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places if I wanted to, or like, You

know, just having that kind of, like,

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standing is, is incredibly liberating.

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Geri: So, what particularly

led to that sense of standing

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or having other possibilities?

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Katta: So, I mean, they always keep on

saying, like, you should have a plan B

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that is at least as attractive as plan A.

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And I was kind of like,

but it's like so true.

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Like, the thing is, like, I, I kind of

felt for a long time that I Um, that

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I couldn't do anything else other than

academia and like, you know, because

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like it was always like, why is my

other option doing like UX interfaces

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for banks, which, you know, is like, is

absolutely valid as a career and it's

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like something, it's just not for me.

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Like I didn't see myself there.

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Right.

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And it just didn't ring with me.

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And I, I kind of like felt

like I was so removed from.

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From like my core studies and like went

so deep into a niche that I wouldn't

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necessarily be able like that's not even

true I have learned that since then too,

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but like I Kind of like was so in that

system that I felt like there was no

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But like I was so much in that system I

kind of felt like there was no other way

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to do this and then I, I think the moment

that I always relate to in that regard

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was when I had COVID for the first time.

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Um, because I was really sick.

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Um, and then my partner got sick and I had

to like do all the childcare duty as well.

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And so like, you know, um, it was

just like, it was only like two or

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three weeks, but like only because

I had longer health scares before,

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but like it was just two or three

weeks, but I couldn't really do a lot.

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And I came back to it and I had

a rejection that was based on.

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For a funding proposal that started

with a sentence that was basically

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like queer theory has nothing

to do with academia That's okay.

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Like we can have that discussion, but

then you shouldn't evaluate my proposal.

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I had the feeling there was a lot of

pressure from peers as to because I

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was involved in conference organization

and And I had felt that pressure of

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like, you know Why weren't you around?

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And I was like, I was sick.

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But also there's like a different kind

of culture around that internationally.

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I feel sometimes particularly

stemming from the U.

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S.

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I'm going to say that.

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Like it's not even people.

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It's just like, you know, there's

like, you see the system there is

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so much different compared to here

when it comes to kind of like taking

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time off or like, you know, you

have kind of this focus on self care

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because there is no systemic care.

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And like, you can see that being

perpetrated even incidentally.

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Right.

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And so I had the feeling I had let people

down because, um, because everybody

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was expecting me to work through COVID,

which like didn't make any sense to

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me because like, I was really Sick..

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And then, um, and then that

happened and that happened.

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And then I felt like, you know, I, uh,

that was done also briefly after that.

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Um, uh, there was the announcement

that they didn't have money at

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the university anymore for the

job that I'm sitting in now.

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Like they found the money again,

but like, I essentially stood

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there like, it's going to happen.

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And then I saw that there was, there

is like a study degree that you can

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do, um, while you're holding a job.

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In sign language interpretation and sign

language was kind of my covert project.

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Because I could commit to

that when I didn't have to go

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to conferences all the time.

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And so, um, I saw the study degree.

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I was like, this is way too early for me.

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Like, I was not really good at signing.

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I'm still like, you know, I'm okay.

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I'm like, not, I'm not great at signing.

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Um, I wouldn't say, but, um, Um, but I

felt it was a bit early for that move,

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but it only happens every three years.

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And so, and I was kind of like fed

up with that, like there was just so

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much that happened kind of that I was

like, well, I'm going to try and if

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not, then I can either try in three

years again, or like what is going

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to happen other than I apply and they

say no, it's like the same situation.

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And like, I didn't expect to get it.

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Uh, and then I got in and I was

like, well, I guess I'm doing that

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now into, into the study degree.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Geri: Were you thinking then

that the signing might be

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an alternative career path?

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Katta: Yes, exactly.

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And even if, um, if I would stay in

academia, that could be something.

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Like, Austria is very small.

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So there are like 130 sign language

interpreters, um, in total.

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And none of them are

either inter or trans.

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And so, there are a handful of people who

are deaf and out as inter or trans, like,

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it's not a lot of people, but they don't

have anyone necessarily relatable to.

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And so I felt like that would still

be a service that I could do as a side

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gig, even, like, where I would just be

available for specific instances there.

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Where I just have kind of

that community experience.

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Um, yeah.

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Like, now I'm doing that and, uh, I, I

see myself maybe, you know, reducing my

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hours at one point and do academia part

time, which I find an actually quite

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attractive kind of like notion, right?

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Like being like, Hey, how about I do

this, like, you know, 50 percent or

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whatever and like do then the interpreting

or, you know, if I don't get tenure,

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then I can just do it full time because

half of interpreting is research.

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So it's like, mm.

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Yep.

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Yeah.

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Same thing.

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Geri: So, so many threads

to pick up on there.

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And, uh, we've worked together

for a long time as well.

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so trying to also think about

people who might not have the

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shared background that we have.

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Do you want to just give a little

bit more about your background in

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terms of, you know, disciplinary

areas where you've come from?

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Katta: Yeah.

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So I've, uh, I've done

two bachelor degrees.

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Um, uh, student by life,

uh, by profession or so.

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No.

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Um, anyway, uh, so yeah, I have two

bachelor degrees, one in cultural

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studies and one in computer science.

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And then I have a combined master

kind of with a focus on computer

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science and actually cryptography.

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Um, that was my jam.

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And then I did a PhD here at TU Wien.

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Um, I did the other degrees

in Weimar in Germany at the

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Bauhaus, because it sounds fancy.

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Um, and then, uh, yeah, then I was at

Leuven for a year, then I came back

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here, um, with my own funding, and

then they said, like, cool funding

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you got there, now you can have a

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Geri: which was quite a

prestigious Austrian fellowship,

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Katta: at least for us.

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It was also interesting, because,

like, I do all these things

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without thinking they are false.

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That's true.

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Like, no, it's actually funny because

like constantly I do things where I'm

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like, that's never going to work out.

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Like it was with the study degree,

but it was also with that funding.

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I was like, cause I knew that

my legal gender would change

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while they would evaluate it.

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And it was funding that was

initially only for women.

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And then, um, I was like, I want to see

what the system does when that happens.

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Um, and like I informed them immediately

when my legal gender changed to,

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um, in Germany it's called diverse.

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We can talk about that, but like, you

know, a non binary gender, um, and I

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informed them that that is the case,

and that I'm inter, and um, that it,

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I leave it up to them how they're

going to deal with that situation.

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They were like, noted,

we're going to discuss this.

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And then it had apparently like, the,

the head of the funding body, which was

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the national funding body in Austria, so.

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It was a bit funny.

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Yeah, so the, the, the curatorium,

it's how they're called, I think,

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they have discussed your case and

you will be evaluated further.

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And I was like, thanks, thank you.

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And then I even got it.

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And the funny thing about that is because,

like, I did write a proper proposal, like

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it wasn't a joke proposal or anything,

but I wrote one that made no compromises

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in terms of what I wanted to do.

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Like, it didn't try to

pander to reviewers.

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And then that was what

surprised me so much then that

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I got it because I was like.

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I was not trying to do any

of the strategic things.

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And it was funny because later,

afterwards, I was one of the, like, you

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know, people who have done it before

at an internal seminar here at TU Wien.

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And so I listened to what they

suggested what you should do.

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And it was things like, never

say you want to be with, like,

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your advisor or whatever.

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And I came back to the same institute

and you were my formal advisor back then.

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And so I did that wrong and then

there were a bunch of things

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that you could do wrong and I

basically did all of them wrong.

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Geri: By, by playing the strategic game.

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Yeah.

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Those rules.

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Katta: If you could, you could be more

strategic about it and I was just not.

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And I was so surprised that it then

even like, even after the fact that it

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worked out, but like, you know, it did.

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Geri: Yeah.

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It's interesting to think about

if it would have been, oh no,

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you need a parallel universe.

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If it would've been as successful

if you weren't as authentic

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and, and uncompromising.

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Katta: Yeah.

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That is like then what I keep telling

people sometimes, like if you dare to

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just, um, I shouldn't swear, but like , if

you dare to then just like, I guess like

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do the thing that you want to, but I

know also that it's really difficult and.

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And even I can only get there when I'm not

that afraid of like how it could work out.

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Geri: Yeah, I was, I was just going to

say how much, um, of a factor did it

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play that it wasn't something that you

really, really, really, really wanted, it

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seemed like you held it quite lightly.

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Katta: Yes.

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Um, I mean, that was different with

the funding that I got recently

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where I also didn't expect that

I would get it and also wrote it.

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in a fairly uncompromising

fashion, but I did be, I did,

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I was more strategic about it.

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And it was a bit more nervous also

because it didn't only affect me.

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And then it did suddenly.

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And then, you know, it didn't again,

but, um, it's also about like, you know,

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giving people the opportunity to work

in a field that they want to work in.

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And, um, and so I, I took, um, I feel like

there, it was a bit different even, like,

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even though I, I similarly kept on, held

on to some things, I, I remember that I,

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for example, like, my early thing was, uh,

was titling it something around Crip Stuff

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and all that, and I had, like, internal

people here from your, from support

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services be like, well, at least people

will remember that, because, like, they

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probably have not understood Crip Studies

necessarily, and, like, you're kind of,

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like, going in with, like, a bang there.

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And maybe you want to do a softer entry

and all that and I listened to that and

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I did that and like it also worked out

but I'm not sure I would have necessarily

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if I wouldn't have felt that that was

actually a thing that I would want if

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it would follow through even though I

didn't believe that that and not even

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for myself but like I know because you

said taking on their responsibility

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Geri: You said that The value of

that grant in particular is all

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the positions that it gives for

other people that you care about

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and, and enabling their careers.

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And we should just say that

this is an ERC, grant, which is

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really incredibly prestigious in

Europe for those who don't know.

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And so congratulations, Kata.

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Katta: Yeah, um, yeah, I still haven't

like people keep on like you celebrate it.

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Yeah, and I'm like, um, no

Not sure What's to celebrate?

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So like yeah,

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Geri: is it that it doesn't feel?

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Real or what?

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Katta: Well, I'm also like there's still

like things could still go wrong, right?

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There is no grant agreement that has

been signed yet and like, you know Maybe

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I've not been ethical enough with the

stuff and the EU is not going to tell

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me they can't fund it because of ethics.

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Geri: Although you did get a

reviewer comment that it was

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one of the best ethics sections.

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Katta: That was at the other

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Geri: Ah, okay.

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And you would have brought the same

sensitivities to this proposal as well.

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Katta: Um, we'll see, right?

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Um, there is some stuff that is

highly sensitive, so I mean, I also

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appreciate good guidance on that.

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Um, yeah, I just like that.

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Geri: So would you give people the advice

about thinking carefully about being

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authentic and uncompromising as, as you

can be in your proposals rather than,

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I don't know, I guess the opposite is

what filling it with all the buzzwords

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that you think are the trendy buzzwords.

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Katta: Yeah.

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But then there's also the

question, how well can you do

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it if you just follow them?

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Whatever, you know?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But I mean, the thing is it just

changes or it changed for me, or

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where this is a different situation

when it's funding for yourself.

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Like the first one.

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Yeah.

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Um, or if it's funding for like, you know.

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other people as well.

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And that was kind of the shift that

for me made a huge difference in

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terms of like how much I cared and

how much I felt like, you know,

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to tone down some of the aspects.

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But I mean, it's still talking

about sex and disability.

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Like I don't, I didn't

take myself out of it.

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I do want to research stuff where, you

know, there are Um, a lot of taboos and

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there are a lot of kind of like, you

know, uh, hush, hush, like not looking

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at it so closely because we feel like,

you know, it's sensitive and all that.

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I do want to go there still, like that's

not, that's not where I compromise,

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but like how I talk about it has

been more compromising because, yeah.

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Geri: But it still sounds like

a negotiated playing the risks.

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Katta: Yes.

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But also I have no filter, right?

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Like, there's just like so

much I can do in that regard.

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Um, there's like, I can say this

slightly different so you can hear

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that and it still makes sense.

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And like both are of our heads, so

to speak, with that imaginary other,

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but um, but there's also a thing of

like, I want you to feel uncomfortable

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a little bit or like, you know,

where just don't take that agenda.

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Geri: But do it in a way that brings

the reviewers along with you in terms

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of the arguments for the validity

of the science and the, and the

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contributions and the importance of it.

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Katta: And I mean, I'm not sure whether

I do that necessarily very well.

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I looked at those reviews and it

was funny because you, with the

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EU, you don't get them before

you have the oral presentation.

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And it was so interesting because

I saw them and then I realized that

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it was actually like just by chance

because I couldn't have known.

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But by chance I had my 10 minute kind of

like, you know, presentation and I covered

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90 percent of the critique and comments.

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And I was like Well anticipated.

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That was pretty smart, I guess.

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But like, not to be planned for.

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Geri: Were you able to do that because

of previous discussions you'd had with

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support people or peers who gave feedback

on drafts who maybe sensitized you to what

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some of the questions might have been?

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Katta: Uh, yeah, I mean, I did that

internally like three or four times

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because there was also another interviewer

involved, um, for a different funding

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body that decided not to give me money.

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Well, they're like, I sound a

bit miffed and I am, but that's

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again, not necessarily for me.

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But, um, but also, I mean, I keep on

saying we all think that our topics are

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the most important because like you need

some kind of passion to go after them.

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But just in the, in the state of things,

um, I found there was kind of a focus put

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on specific kind of disciplines, um, to

the loss of anything that would qualify

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as like, you know, humanities or like

deep kind of like engagements with like

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culture as it is, um, or, or sociological

topics or just larger groups of people

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and how they operate within society.

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And so, I mean, there was one

project that got awarded that was.

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Coming close to that.

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But like other than that, it was

very much, um, kind of like the

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natural sciences for a funding

scheme that is across the board.

346

:

And I think, and that's not just about

me, I think it's like a loss to, um,

347

:

to, uh, towards the community as such,

like the academic community as such,

348

:

but also towards upcoming academics

and like people who might be interested

349

:

in different ways of knowing and

bringing their stuff in that there

350

:

is like such a, such a solid focus.

351

:

on, on very specific kind of projects.

352

:

So that was the shame because they also

get like a lot of publicity and these

353

:

topics are then set as important research

topics and like relevant things we wanted

354

:

to like, you know, research in Austria.

355

:

And I felt a bit like, of course,

also with my stuff with around access

356

:

and disability and like minority

bodies and all that, but also that

357

:

there was just like none of these

kind of like, you know, questions or.

358

:

Or considerations, um, that just

surprised me a little bit, I guess,

359

:

that there was like little of that,

very little at least, um, to be fair.

360

:

Geri: And especially when so many of

the challenges that we're dealing at

361

:

a societal level require such diverse

disciplinary perspectives to address

362

:

in more holistic, effective ways.

363

:

Maybe this will be a point of reflection

for funding bodies later on, who knows.

364

:

But, you named your research agenda, uh,

just then really is about accessibility

365

:

Katta: and, um, Well not

accessibility, it's access.

366

:

Geri: It's access and

disability and minority bodies.

367

:

And those themes also seem to be

quite biographical for you as well.

368

:

Katta: Well, to some

extent, not to all of them.

369

:

I also work with deaf people

nowadays because there aren't just

370

:

enough other people who, um, like

where, I don't want to be arrogant.

371

:

I don't know of, of anyone else

who has the level of signing that

372

:

I have in my field, in Austria.

373

:

Like in my field, yes,

there are deaf people.

374

:

Like there is Raja Kalnagaraga and

like Christian Vogler at Gallaudet

375

:

and then there are people at RIT

who, who like do amazing work.

376

:

Like Abraham Glasser and like,

you know, uh, like there are deaf

377

:

people who have better levels of

signing and also do amazing research.

378

:

Um, in Austria that, uh, is not the case.

379

:

It's also there are differences

in the education system and

380

:

all that and the change.

381

:

But because of that, um, I do work with

deaf people, even though I'm hearing.

382

:

And that's not autobiographical,

like the autobiographical stuff.

383

:

Cause like you want it to go there now?

384

:

Yeah,

385

:

Geri: we can go there.

386

:

Just first, can you just

clarify how you see access and

387

:

accessibility as being different?

388

:

Katta: Well, I actually have these

interesting also kind of like discussions

389

:

because, um, and it's a work that

I'm currently still trying to get to

390

:

the definitory like differences, but

essentially what I'm interested in and

391

:

why I keep on focusing on access and I

don't see access as a one time thing.

392

:

I see it as a process and as something

that you stay involved in, but also that

393

:

is give like, not necessarily given to

you that is like to me, access is more

394

:

of, um, Um, it's more of something that

is like attuned to how your body acts in

395

:

the world and how you are acting within

your environment or other people, whereas

396

:

accessibility is kind of like, um, an

afterthought a little bit or like, you

397

:

know, a kind of like the special thought.

398

:

So it's a bit like, um, It's a

bit like providing, um, and it's

399

:

just going to be my example now

because we've talked about that.

400

:

Just now, but, um, providing education

in sign language is something very

401

:

different, like, when the, when the

teachers, like, illustrate things in

402

:

sign language than when it goes through

interpreters, where you always have an

403

:

indirect kind of, like, processing and,

like, uh, translation from even a logic

404

:

that is geared towards a hearing audience

versus a logic that is more visual, like,

405

:

you have these kind of things that, that

just, like, add on to, like, um, It's

406

:

a way of interacting with the world.

407

:

So, accessibility to me is kind of like

we have that norm of how we do things

408

:

and then here is a way in for you.

409

:

And access is to me that

you have the way in there.

410

:

But like directly.

411

:

Geri: Is access more person centered

and accessibility more thing centered?

412

:

Katta: I'm not sure.

413

:

I do wonder, like I, like, as I said,

like I'm currently very much like this

414

:

is like ongoing thinky work, but um,

thinky work, that sounds very academic.

415

:

Um, but like, uh, like that's where I

try to like get to the definitory, like

416

:

grounding and all that, but yeah, um,

so that's what I've been thinking on.

417

:

I'm not sure it's

necessarily person centered.

418

:

I feel like even that access is

is, is more like intent and like

419

:

interaction centred, ultimately,

whereas accessibility is like, can

420

:

be thing or person centred really.

421

:

Geri: So you, you've mentioned about,

um, getting a legal gender change during

422

:

process of applying for a grant and that,

do you want to talk about that process?

423

:

That whole experience of being

gender diverse and inter.

424

:

Katta: Well, I mean, to an extent

that's just how I live my life, right?

425

:

Like, so it's a bit normal for me.

426

:

And I keep on saying that I actually

don't have a lot of interest in talking

427

:

about it, but I have to continuously,

um, because of like all these systems

428

:

requiring me to, um, To disclose a gender

that I don't have, um, but, uh, more to

429

:

the point, um, it was very affirmative

to kind of like have, like that moment

430

:

when I had that passport just, um, like

that because it was, it was validating my

431

:

experiences in like some weird way, but,

um, so I've, uh, um, Um, I've been, uh,

432

:

undergoing hormone therapy since I was

like nine or ten, um, without necessarily

433

:

knowing that that was the case, or my

parents knowing that that was the case,

434

:

um, and it followed back then medical

standards as well, um, to do it that

435

:

way and also to keep people in the dark.

436

:

So it's like, I'm not making

anyone, like, I'm not actually.

437

:

That was a systems failure, right?

438

:

And it also took me a while to understand

what was happening there either.

439

:

And then end of my twenties or

so, like I always felt kind of

440

:

like not belonging to any of that.

441

:

And then I saw an intergroup in Germany

once and I was like, Huh, I kind of like

442

:

feel like them, but I have like absolutely

no understanding of why that is.

443

:

Because like, I didn't have surgeries.

444

:

Well, I actually did, but later.

445

:

And I wasn't even aware that

that also was related, but yeah.

446

:

And, um, and anyway, uh, there was a

bunch of stuff where I had to kind of

447

:

like piecemeal it together that that is

who I am, um, and, and what my actual

448

:

like biological, so to speak, like what

my body does with my gender and like, so,

449

:

or with my sex, even like, if you want to

make that differentiation, which I feel

450

:

a bit uncomfortable about, but like my

body was just like, you know, not going.

451

:

Um, Um, clearly one way or another,

especially like on a hormonal level.

452

:

And then I stopped taking those

hormones and I felt so much better.

453

:

Um, like there was like some, I

had several reasons of why I was

454

:

chronically depressed for the longest

time of my life, but like one of

455

:

those like lifted a little bit.

456

:

And then, um, and then

I stopped doing that.

457

:

And, um, that also meant that, you know,

Uh, at some point I stopped and shaving

458

:

because like I had a beard actually

the entire time like less so with

459

:

the hormones, but still it was there.

460

:

Um, and then I stopped shaving.

461

:

That was out of spite because, uh,

because one psychiatrist said like they

462

:

don't believe in creating a reality

that just follows my imagination.

463

:

And I was like, I'm going to show you

what my reality is because like, you

464

:

know, I don't think you understand.

465

:

Um, And, yeah, it also has been

filling in over the years, which

466

:

is kind of neat because I like it.

467

:

And, um, and then, uh, two years

ago, not quite, I had top surgery,

468

:

and that was also very interesting

in that regard, because I, um, like,

469

:

I had top surgery, and now I have

a flatter chest, which is great.

470

:

But also, like, they came

back and were like, well, you

471

:

kind of have artificial boobs.

472

:

Which, like, there wasn't a

lot of kind of, like, you know.

473

:

Classical, um, like, I didn't

have a lot of milk ducts, I

474

:

think is the English word.

475

:

And all that, like, it was more of a

classically male chest to begin with.

476

:

And I was like, huh, so you mean, like,

if I wouldn't have taken all those

477

:

hormones, I wouldn't have had, so this

was a corrective measure of actually

478

:

just, like, creating [A corrective measure

of a supposedly corrective measure].

479

:

Where somebody else, like, you know,

tried to, you know, adapt reality

480

:

towards, you know, what wasn't the case.

481

:

Um, but, like, yeah.

482

:

Anyway, so, that was, uh, that was

kind of like the journey to now.

483

:

Geri: So, you came out as queer

sort of during your PhD process.

484

:

Katta: Yeah, um, I mean I was trying to

be plausible in my ability, like that is

485

:

kind of like a thing that I tried for a

lot of things, but, there as well, because

486

:

I didn't know what the community was like,

right, and like, I, in:

487

:

conference and that was very much like

where it was recognizable to peers but not

488

:

necessarily to non queer people, right?

489

:

Like that was very noticeable for

me and that was kind of like where

490

:

I wanted to be recognizable to

peers but not necessarily, you know,

491

:

flying under the radar for others.

492

:

Because I didn't know how safe

it was, or whether it was safe.

493

:

And I can also say now,

it is safer and non safer.

494

:

Like, not as safe as I wished it

would be, or thought it would be.

495

:

So, both.

496

:

So, don't think, like, and it's a strategy

that a lot of people might employ.

497

:

Like, just like, you know,

testing the waters a bit.

498

:

I mean, that was new for me, too.

499

:

And in 2017, I did the same thing.

500

:

And then I met others who were

also, like, doing the same thing.

501

:

Who have since come out.

502

:

Um, and then, um, and in 2018, there was

a keynote at a conference and it wasn't

503

:

even at the keynote, which is so funny

because I haven't actually seen it.

504

:

I just have seen the fallout.

505

:

But the fallout from that was that

suddenly, everybody seemed to clock me,

506

:

like, that plausible deniability went

away and I had to suddenly talk about

507

:

gender all the time and had to talk

about myself or being queer or like,

508

:

you know, non binary and all that and

like, because people were so angry and

509

:

like, um, they also tried to find people

that could talk about this and were more

510

:

alert towards like queer signage and I

suddenly felt myself having to explain

511

:

but also to having kind of like, even

though I wasn't like, Like fully in the

512

:

closet or anything, but like having to

more explicitly come out towards that.

513

:

Um, and in the same year I also like,

you know, then wrote the, um, wrote a

514

:

guidance for how to talk about gender

because I was angry about another

515

:

paper, but that's actually unrelated.

516

:

Um, with those authors, by the way,

which was really cool, just as a process,

517

:

but we can talk about this later.

518

:

Anyway, and like I had to,

um, I had then felt like.

519

:

I wasn't even mad about the keynote

as such and I was definitely not

520

:

mad at the general chairs who were

probably just like, you know, doing

521

:

their best and trying to figure

out how to do a great conference.

522

:

Um, and you know, we all kind of

like, I mean, I certainly haven't

523

:

always done the right thing, right?

524

:

Like, that's not the point.

525

:

Um, I felt also that, to me, my conference

experience was definitely impacted in

526

:

that I came to talk about, I think,

fitness trackers and like, you know,

527

:

other work that I found cool that I

wanted to talk about and then I suddenly

528

:

was pushed into, like, only talking

about gender in, in ways that I couldn't

529

:

fully understand where I could go and

all that because, I At least I don't

530

:

know of anyone else, I'm just thinking,

maybe one person, but like, um, I don't

531

:

know that many people who are out as

inter in general, and then I don't know

532

:

many in academia who are out as inter.

533

:

And so that makes it really hard.

534

:

Geri: And just for context for

people, um, the, the keynote.

535

:

Touched upon issues or talked about a

dating app and, uh, so there was sort

536

:

of issues in the, in the application

and more particularly the, the way

537

:

the binary notions of gender that

were discussed in the ways in which

538

:

those genders were talked about,

which triggered a lot of the thing.

539

:

But

540

:

Katta: I think there was also some

data, like how you interpret data

541

:

and then generalize over that.

542

:

And like, that just doesn't

cover people's experiences,

543

:

which is just bad data science.

544

:

Geri: So you also, talked about some

chronic health issues you touched upon

545

:

that you've so you've been dealing

with this, with coming to feel more

546

:

comfortable in your own identity and

finding your community, I guess, in a

547

:

way from what you've said and then on

the other side, feeling safe enough to.

548

:

Be authentic with that as well, sort

of more uncompromising with that.

549

:

And similarly, you've been dealing

with some chronic health issues.

550

:

Katta: Yeah, so if I would ever get to

a state where I would have, like this is

551

:

very hypothetical, a full professorship in

Germany, I would not get the Verbeamtung,

552

:

the thing of like, where you, um, where

you basically are, Like, I don't know

553

:

how to describe that, but basically

it's a better status of employment that

554

:

every other full prof has, because I

would be too ill, considered too ill.

555

:

Yep.

556

:

That's, uh, I feel discriminatory,

but like, you know.

557

:

Geri: She says, having just got

an ERC, says they, oh, dear.

558

:

They say,

559

:

Katta: no, it's fine.

560

:

It like happens, right?

561

:

Um, I'm not even, yeah.

562

:

Um, it's more like working on it.

563

:

Geri: It is.

564

:

It is Katta.

565

:

So, is there anything about

navigating that process and the,

566

:

around the chronic health issues?

567

:

Katta: Well, yeah, I mean, I, I do

like to have more control and insight

568

:

over my body than maybe others.

569

:

Like, my sister always makes fun

of me that I have to measure my

570

:

sugar levels like every 20 minutes

because otherwise I wouldn't live.

571

:

Um, which is not necessarily the

case, but I do it quite often because

572

:

I have a sense of, like, an innate

sense of, like, curiosity about data.

573

:

But, um, but, uh, yeah, I mean.

574

:

Uh, I, I've just had a

bunch of things happening.

575

:

Like, um, my digestive system

is, is, um, is either in hyper

576

:

or in hypo drive, I guess.

577

:

And, um, um, yeah, just had

lots of surgery when I was,

578

:

um, in, during my studies.

579

:

Like, I basically spent a year in

hospital, um, because, like, I had some,

580

:

um, Issues that also required surgeries.

581

:

And then I got painkillers that I then

ended up reacting allergic to, even though

582

:

that is like extremely unlikely to happen.

583

:

And it was caught really late.

584

:

And then I already had a sepsis as well.

585

:

And so my immune system was down,

uh, additionally to that, like I

586

:

didn't have any white blood cells

and that was all very dramatic.

587

:

And.

588

:

It was all very dramatic.

589

:

Yeah, that is really serious.

590

:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

591

:

Um, no, no, I don't want to,

um, but, like, you know, it's

592

:

also been 15 years, 14 years.

593

:

Yeah.

594

:

Um, and, um, so the distance helps.

595

:

But, like, yeah, so I had, uh,

I had these health issues back

596

:

then, and they, and then the, that

doesn't mean that the digestive

597

:

system was still, like, you know.

598

:

Um, acting up and that took a few years

to kind of like come to a stage where

599

:

I'm at now ish, where it's a Knock on

wood, like, but I didn't have any surgery

600

:

related to that in the last five years

and I was like, whoo, what is happening?

601

:

And before that I had up to 10, 15

surgeries a year, like one year was really

602

:

intense and Yeah But, like, that is also

interesting because I don't have a fixed

603

:

diagnosis on any of that even though,

like, there are a lot of implications.

604

:

Geri: A lot of interventions.

605

:

A lot of physical issues and,

and the diabetes as well.

606

:

Katta: Oh, yeah.

607

:

But the diabetes is new to us.

608

:

Yeah.

609

:

But I had to, like, that is, like,

as a fat person, I'm going to tell

610

:

you, the medical system is a freak.

611

:

Now I sound like a conspiracy person,

but, like, that's not what I mean.

612

:

It's just so interesting because the

diabetes is such a classical thing where

613

:

I would say like, you know, and it's

often that you know It's said that you

614

:

know weight, you know, I said a lot

there But it's said that weight is a

615

:

risk factor for diabetes And that's not

actually necessarily clear because the

616

:

excess insulin with diabetes too that you

produce can and I have type 2 as far as

617

:

we know and But the excess insulin that

you produce is actually an anabolica, so,

618

:

um, or it falls in the group of anabolica.

619

:

And then, uh, that means you

actually have weight gain, right?

620

:

So it can be also an effect

and usually it's like a self,

621

:

like, um, both is, um, like.

622

:

And then, um, but that is the case, right?

623

:

And I gained weight and like I

kept on saying to doctors, isn't

624

:

the sugar level a little bit high?

625

:

And they were like, well, a

little bit, but you're fat.

626

:

And they were like kind of ignoring

it for so long that I had to.

627

:

Go to the ER at one point and that

shouldn't happen with type 2 because I was

628

:

almost in a diabetic coma because I had

so much sugar in my In my bloodstream And

629

:

again, that shouldn't be happening with

type 2 at all And yeah, so I was ignored

630

:

even though I was kind of like already

Hinting towards that and even with that

631

:

kind of like, so I sometimes feel like

the lack of diagnosis when, when there's

632

:

clearly like a lot of interventions

is also because people keep on putting

633

:

it towards the shape of my body,

which is not necessarily, um, helpful.

634

:

Yeah.

635

:

But, you know, that's that.

636

:

It's really hard to get

good care when you're fat.

637

:

Geri: Yeah.

638

:

You've also commented even on a lot of

the interaction technologies that we are

639

:

designing and dealing with and how they

don't, allow access for diverse bodies.

640

:

Katta: Yeah.

641

:

Yeah.

642

:

I mean, you could, um, I mean, most,

this has changed actually since then,

643

:

but like most fitness trackers for a long

time did only allow for binary genders.

644

:

Um, or, um, or like how, um, a lot of

the, like a lot of those, um, and in this

645

:

case it's not even, well, it depends.

646

:

Sorry, I'm thinking faster than I

speak again and that causes breaks.

647

:

But.

648

:

So in a lot of cases, weight loss

is seen as the ultimate goal,

649

:

which can be quite damaging.

650

:

Um, especially when people, um, have made

experiences with eating disorders and are

651

:

then, you know, prone to kind of like tap

into that again as a source of control.

652

:

Geri: It brings up this notion of what

we assume is normative, approaches

653

:

to all sorts of things, whether it's

Academia, gender filling in on forms,

654

:

um, goals for fitness trackers and so on.

655

:

Yeah.

656

:

And also with all of this, you also

talk about being neurodivergent.

657

:

Yes.

658

:

And I, I'm sitting here watching Katta,

do cross stitching as, as we're speaking.

659

:

Katta: Yeah.

660

:

.

Geri: And this is where we will leave it for part one.

661

:

I just want to acknowledge the additional

work that Katta has to do to assert their

662

:

rightful identity because of my mistake

in mis-gendering them and I'm grateful

663

:

to Katta for their patience and gracious

generosity in how they corrected me.

664

:

So keep an eye open or should I say,

keep an ear open for part two, where

665

:

category goes on to discuss how near

a divergence plays out for them.

666

:

You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

667

:

links for this podcast on www.

668

:

changingacademiclife.

669

:

com.

670

:

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

671

:

Spotify and Google Podcasts.

672

:

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

673

:

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

674

:

we can do academia differently.

675

:

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

676

:

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

677

:

podcast with your colleagues.

678

:

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About the Podcast

Changing Academic Life
What can we do, individually and collectively, to change academic life to be more sustainable, collaborative and effective? This podcast series offers long-form conversations with academics and thought leaders who share stories and insights, as well as bite-size musings on specific topics drawing on literature and personal experience.
For more information go to https://changingacademiclife.com
Also see https://geraldinefitzpatrick.com to leave a comment.

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Geraldine Fitzpatrick

Geraldine Fitzpatrick (Geri Fitz), is an awarded Emeritus Professor TU Wien, with degrees in Informatics and in Positive Psychology and Coaching Psychology, after a prior career as a nurse/midwife. She has International experience working in academic, research, industry and clinical settings. She is a sought-after facilitator/speaker/coach who cares about creating environments in which people can thrive, enabling individual growth, and creating collegial collaborative cultures. Apart from her usual academic work, she is an international keynote speaker, and a facilitator/trainer of seminars, workshops and courses for academics and professionals at all levels, from senior academic leaders, to mid and early career researchers, to PhD students. She is also a mentor/coach for academics and has been/is on various Faculty evaluation panels and various International Advisory Boards. An example of a course is the Academic Leadership Development Course for Informatics Europe, run in conjunction with Austen Rainer, Queens Uni Belfast. She also offers bespoke courses.