Katta Spiel (Part 2) on neurodivergence & different ways of being and knowing

Geri: 00:00:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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Welcome to part two of

my conversation with Dr.

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Katta Spiel.

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Katta is an assistant

professor at TU Wien.

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And, also a recent recipient of an ERC

starting grant, which in the European

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context is a very prestigious grant.

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And Katta's also a very good colleague

of mine for a number of years.

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In part, one of my

conversation with Katta.

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They talk about their experiences

around career uncertainty as

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a postdoc before they got this

current tenure track position.

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And other issues like dealing with

rejection of proposals coming out as

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queer dealing with chronic health issues.

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And we end up there talking

about normative approaches

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to technologies and bodies.

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We go on here in part two where

Katta talks about their personal

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journey with being diagnosed

with ADHD, being neurodivergent.

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And what it's like negotiating

living in a world that doesn't really

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make space for different ways of

knowing and different ways of being

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and for different types of bodies.

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And also talking about, being an

activist and feeling that sense of

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injustice around many of these issues

and trying to make that difference.

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And ending with an encouragement

for us all to be curious about the

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different ways of being and knowing.

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So.

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enjoy part two of this conversation.

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It brings up this notion of what we

assume is normative, approaches to

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all sorts of things, whether it's

Academia, gender filling in on forms,

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goals for fitness trackers and so on.

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Yeah.

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And you also talk about

being neurodivergent.

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Yes.

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And I, I'm sitting here watching Katta,

do cross stitching as, as we're speaking.

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Katta: Yeah.

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In this case, yeah, um, now, I've been

doing that recently again, um, because I

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felt it was more portable than knitting.

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Um, so, this is something that

accompanies me actually my entire,

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like, school career and life.

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When I was, uh, in primary school,

in second grade, I was apparently so

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hard to handle that they gave me books

to read and were like, this makes no

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sense how you retain anything else.

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But like, apparently it went

better when I read books in class.

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Then I was like more attentive.

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Um, and that like was The case for

the longest time that I was just

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reading books in class and then

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Geri: while listening to the

teacher Yeah, whatever concept

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they were trying to explain.

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Katta: Yeah, and then

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Geri: so again the normative

account of what attention is

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Katta: And then during my whole studies

I was knitting Basically, once I dare to.

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Um, and, uh, and I didn't even know

I was neurodivergent at that point.

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I just did these things.

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And now I just know what the reason for

that is, but I still do these things.

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Maybe sometimes I allow

them more readily to me.

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Because, like, I guess I would try and,

and I, I would try and get through, like,

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student meetings without doing that.

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But now I just keep telling my students,

like, I will pay more attention and be

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more concise and more helpful for you

if you let me do a thing next to it.

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Yeah.

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Like I will make more sense to you.

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We will have a better relationship

and it will just be a better

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interactive experience for you.

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Mm-Hmm.

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. And it's actually surprising me

even like how well that is accepted.

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I mean, I also openly talk about it.

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I think it's really important to

kind of like for students to have

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that, I don't wanna say role model,

but like you are kind of put in

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that position, so you have to.

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Just like, whether you want or not, you

just have to kind of like, relate to that.

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And, it does, there is a special flex in

being like, I have a learning disability.

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Geri: So, how do you characterize

your neurodivergence?

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Like, learning disability?

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Katta: No, but that's how it's

Characterized from the outside, right?

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Mm-Hmm.

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. And then I play with that.

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Mm-Hmm.

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. But I see it as a difference.

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It's just a difference of processing,

of engaging with like, I mean,

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dopamine levels are, as far as

I understood, dopamine levels

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are, uh, lower, for example.

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And there are like neurological

differences, but I don't wanna like, you

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know, value that one way or the other.

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I do identify as disabled due

to like a bunch of things.

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Um, and that being one of them.

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But that's more in terms of like

how I encounter a world that expects

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me to be different than how I am.

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And that's also how I identify

disability ultimately.

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So, yeah.

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And with that, yeah.

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I do, like, with the learning

disabled, that's just a flex, right?

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Because like, that, that

kind of is supposed to show.

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the irony behind defining it as such,

because I'm like, in this classic

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academic context, I seem to be

successful enough to kind of like reach

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a stage where this becomes ironic.

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I mean, it's helpful with like, I

raise a child and like, um, when I

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meet other parents and they keep on

being like, Oh yeah, we have like,

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we're discussing ADHD and whatever.

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And, and they don't necessarily

know that I have ADHD myself.

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I can come out and be like, yeah, well,

I have an ADHD too, and it's fine, and

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I work at a university, and they're

like, you can see how they just relax,

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like, immediately, of like, oh god, my

child can have academic success and all

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that, and then I try to explain, you

know, some strategies that might help,

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either from personal experience or from

literature, and like, ultimately, just

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working with the child, I guess, um,

and how they can learn, and usually,

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that, if you manage to have That as a

source of dopamine, then like learning.

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Then you call them.

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Geri: And you do?

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Katta: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, studying again.

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Geri: Studying again.

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Yeah.

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Yeah..

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So what, what are some of the

strategies that have worked for you?

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You've already talked about doing

something with your hands while

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you're talking or listening, you know,

what other ways have you been able

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to work with, who you are and your

particular ways of engaging in the

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world to achieve this level of success

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Katta: If only I knew.

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No, it's not quite as like I

do some things that I guess.

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I mean, I know of a lot of strategies

of how you plan yourself because I

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tried a lot and they have usually not

stuck and I have to change them all

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the time and how I structure my life.

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But that means I know a lot of ways of

structuring my life, which is useful to

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students, I guess, because, like, I can

make a whole range of different offers.

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I'm like, You could try this.

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It doesn't work.

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You could try this.

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I mean, I I've been through a lot.

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And it keeps on changing.

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I've recently tried now with another thing

and it's like, you know, that's fine.

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I have accepted that about myself, that

nothing will work and, uh, only, uh, or

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only if I do everything, so to speak.

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Like, at some, at different

points, different things will work.

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That is maybe the more

positive way to phrase that.

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But also, um, yeah, it's, uh, I have

trouble like, you know, making choices

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between roughly equally important

things and that's really hard because

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then, then deadlines are motivators,

of course, like, cause the urgency that

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something takes does factor in, but

sometimes it has to be really, really

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urgent to, to kind of, like, kick in.

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Um, and you don't want to have that and

you don't want to sit around either.

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But like sometimes there's

paralysis of like, what do I do now?

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Because like emails, are they important?

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Or is like this other thing

important that will put me in a

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better position in the long term?

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Or like, how do I do this?

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How do I do that?

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Is this important now?

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Actually, you should be continuously

doing this so that, you know,

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for example, I do actually try

and update my CV once a month.

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So that I don't have to do

it all at once because I know

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that would even be worse then.

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But you know, some months I just

like move it to the next month as

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a task because like it doesn't feel

that much, like, that relevant.

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But, um, still.

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Sometimes it's just difficult

and then I roll a die.

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And so I have different

ways of rolling a die.

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I have physical die.

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I have a die app on my watch.

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I have a die app on my phone.

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A serious, a serious rolling a die.

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I have a Python script on

my computer that helps me.

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Yeah, I'm not into gambling, but

for that I do have a lot of die.

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And then I have like intricate systems

of like what specific numbers mean.

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And like I still haven't figured

out, like cause I use six

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sided die for the connoisseur.

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But like sometimes I

did not know all this!

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Yeah, I see.

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Um, hiding it well.

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No.

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Um, but like I have a six sided

die and um, I uh, I still haven't

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figured out well how to deal

with it when I have five options.

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But I still feel that is the best die.

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12 sided die might be better,

but like for now, 6 sided die.

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I've been, been holding on to

that for like at least 15 years.

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So that is the most stable

thing that I've done.

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Just like rolling die all the time.

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Geri: I mean, across all that you've

talked about, would it be fair to say this

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has been a journey of self acceptance?

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Getting to know yourself,

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Katta: I mean, I got diagnosed

late ish, like, um, I think I was

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30 or so with ADHD, with ADHD.

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Yeah.

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Um, or a bit earlier, but

like around that time and, um.

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And to an extent, yeah, self

acceptance, but like, it wasn't

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even about self acceptance, but

more like accepting, accepting that

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the world isn't made differently.

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Like, cause I have, there's this question

when you get diagnosed or whether you

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have an, an exaggerated need for justice.

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First of all, I don't think you can have

an exaggerated need for justice because

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either you have a need for justice or

you don't, but like, it's not, that is,

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that is kind of black and white, right?

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Like, you know, what is justice then

like more nuanced, but like, whether

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you are for it or not, it's not

necessarily like, what is that even?

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Like, anyway, um, but, uh, Besides

that, completely weird question, um,

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it was interesting, um, Because that,

that, that is also like sometimes where

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drive comes like of like, oh, this

isn't fair towards me and then like,

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or towards someone else or whatever.

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And I mean, that's a driver

for change and a lot of like

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source for a bunch of activism.

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But, um, but kind of like accepting that

I have to find a way of dealing with that.

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Yeah.

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Um, because like, it will be

even more unfair if I keep on

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trying to change something that I

cannot or like figuring out like.

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Or trying to change my way of like

engaging with that to a point where,

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you know, and I had some, some bad

strategies apparently developed

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over the years as well, like, um,

which are just not necessarily super

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helpful then for me or anyone else.

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And we're, and so what the diagnosis

brought was kind of like going

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from reacting to acting more.

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Um, like I kept on saying.

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back then, um, that to an extent, uh,

medication allowed me to figure out how I

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could be the person that I wanted to be.

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And not just like, you know, trying

to survive in some kind of state.

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Um, and that's kind of

a big thing, I guess.

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Geri: Cause you did talk about

being quite reflective before in

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terms of strategies and what's

going on and What's a priority now?

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Very deliberately thinking

through these things in a way

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that maybe many of us don't.

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Katta: Well, because like

Because we stay reactive.

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Oh no, I was like,

because I have to, right?

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Yeah.

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Because it's not going to be

happening implicitly either.

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Geri: I don't know whether this is

the right way to ask the question,

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but then What strengths has this

given you or highlighted for you

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Katta: Well, to an extent, the thing

of like, you know, staying curious.

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Like, I'm definitely not

necessarily what you would call a

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specialist in like only one area.

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I'm like more of a generalist.

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I'm not super generalist,

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So I think I'm more, I have the

advantage of drawing on more things,

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like in keeping by necessity, um,

so to speak, uh, more threads.

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Uh, in parallel, and so I sometimes see

connections that are not that available to

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others, at least it seems, but also like

others have access to connections that I

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don't necessarily have and, and I'm very

appreciative of them sharing them as well.

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Like, this is not, I'm not

trying to say like, you know,

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um, that this is only a me thing.

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It's, it's very much like,

happening in other cases as well.

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Uh, and, um, besides that, uh, I do see

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I mean, ultimately, um, it's just like

I had to make this work for me, but

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also like ultimately everybody has to,

I mean, to some extent it's easier or

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like it's, I guess it's easier or not

as easy for others, but I actually don't

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have any insight into that as well.

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So I don't know necessarily how to talk

about this without being too presumptuous.

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Um, Because, like, people have their own

struggles and, um, and then I have a lot

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of students who are just neurodivergent

and so we do share the same kind of,

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like, insights, but, um, but even with

those who at least do not identify as

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neurodivergent, I feel like there is,

like, you know, collaboration at some

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point and, like, they, um, I mean, that

might just be the group that has been

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kind of, like, Amalgamizing around me.

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But like, yeah, I don't know.

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I don't want to be presumptuous and

I feel like everybody has to work

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around getting this thing to work.

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And I, um, I maybe had to do

it more explicitly than others.

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Sometimes it feels certainly that way.

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Or I might just like have no

filter and talk about it all

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the time or what have you.

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Geri: So you don't operate in

a vacuum, of course, you know,

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you're part of this group.

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I remember.

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sitting at my table in my office

where you said, Oh, by the way, I'm,

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you know, I'm queer or whatever.

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And, and also talking about when you

were diagnosed with ADHD, what did I do?

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What did we do that was good and

supportive for you in that position?

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And what could we have done?

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What could I have done

that could have been?

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better or more supportive.

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Katta: You took a whole lot of

time until you learned my pronouns.

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Geri: Well, and I can't

believe I misgendered you here.

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I thought I was doing really well.

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And I, , I remember saying to you,

you know, like I've had 60 years of,

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Conditioning, for a particular way of

speaking and it's taking a while, but

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Katta: You can decide whether you

leave that in, but there was this

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moment where you were at some retreat

in Canada that was led by a non

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binary person and you came back and

basically tried to explain how being

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non binary is to me and I was like, wow.

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I felt a little bit like,

you know, I prepared you for

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this, let's say it that way.

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That was a moment.

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But like, see, that I can say these

things, and like, I mean, you can decide

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whether you leave it in or not, but um, I

can say these things, that is a, like, I

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feel like you just like, you didn't have

to understand things to make them work.

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And so, for example, What I really

appreciated, I had this nervous breakdown

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at one point before I was diagnosed,

right, when I was sitting in your office

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and was basically like, I can't do this

anymore, I am doing a PhD, I only have one

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thing to do, I don't know what is wrong

with me, but like, I cannot, it's, it's

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breaking me, quite literally, like it

was really bad, and I think I cried even,

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like I had a full on mental breakdown.

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And you were just like, okay,

I have this other job for you.

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Like you, I guess you didn't understand

because like, I don't know, maybe you did.

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Did you understand before?

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I don't, I don't know.

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I'm now questioning everything.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Like, right, like I

didn't know what was up.

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Um, I was just like, Oh

God, I need another job.

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At least the second thing to do.

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And, cause I also did that all the time.

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Like, even during my studies, either

I studied two things or I was in city

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council as well or what have you.

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And.

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It was just, yeah, and you just gave

me another job and then I was like

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happier and later I got diagnosed,

but, um, but like these things of just

305

: 00:18:00

accepting people without having the

need to fully, like, understand that

306

: 00:18:05

and make sense of it for yourself and

like just being like, okay, this is

307

: 00:18:08

what a person needs and I don't need

to, like, how can I work towards that?

308

: 00:18:13

I think that is great in

terms of an environment.

309

: 00:18:16

I just also needed to say something that

you didn't do well, because otherwise

310

: 00:18:20

it would seem like I suck up to you.

311

: 00:18:21

And

312

: 00:18:23

Geri: I demonstrated it very

clearly earlier in the conversation.

313

: 00:18:27

For people who are in research groups

who may be leading groups or whatever,

314

: 00:18:36

do you have any particular advice

for them about how they might best

315

: 00:18:40

support people who are starting to

recognize Whether it's neurodivergence

316

: 00:18:46

or, um, gender diversity issues.

317

: 00:18:51

Katta: Well, just like, yeah, doing that.

318

: 00:18:54

Like, not trying to figure out

what it means for them actually

319

: 00:18:57

beforehand, but like, rather being

in conversation and like, yeah.

320

: 00:19:03

Um, like, um, taking, taking them

seriously when they say these things

321

: 00:19:09

and not being dismissive about it.

322

: 00:19:12

Um, yeah.

323

: 00:19:14

Geri: Because they are life experiences,

like, you've dealt with such a range of

324

: 00:19:21

things that you've just talked about, I

don't know, not, certainly not glibly,

325

: 00:19:25

but you've just talked about as matter

of factly, rather, is probably a better

326

: 00:19:29

word, that I have no experience of.

327

: 00:19:35

And it sounds overwhelming to have

gone through all that, and in awe of.

328

: 00:19:42

All that you've been all that you've done

and achieved and also more particularly,

329

: 00:19:48

I think the contributions of what you've

given back because in the middle of all

330

: 00:19:55

of the work that you've done to, to get

to the awards and the achievements and the

331

: 00:19:59

grants that you've got the huge service.

332

: 00:20:02

You know, you talked about

feeling like something's not

333

: 00:20:04

fair, being a driver for change.

334

: 00:20:06

You've been really active in

that You do do a lot of peer

335

: 00:20:09

support and, also activism.

336

: 00:20:12

You talked about writing an article,

like being upset about, the way gender

337

: 00:20:16

is represented in papers and writing

an article about how we should talk

338

: 00:20:19

or co authoring an article about

how we should talk about gender.

339

: 00:20:24

Katta: That sounds almost prescriptive.

340

: 00:20:25

So I didn't mean it

prescriptive, but like, yeah.

341

: 00:20:30

Like, the main message of that article

is that people should think about,

342

: 00:20:33

like, how, what they want to know

about gender, why they want to know

343

: 00:20:37

it, and like, which groups, what is

the group conceptualization of gender.

344

: 00:20:42

And then we make an offer that

will, like, you know, be useful for

345

: 00:20:46

a bunch of, like, default cases,

but like, my main thing was always,

346

: 00:20:51

like, you need to think about this.

347

: 00:20:53

Because also the language keeps

on changing and, um, the kind of,

348

: 00:20:57

like, good practices around that.

349

: 00:20:58

Yeah.

350

: 00:21:00

Geri: So it's more of an invitation

to people to really be much

351

: 00:21:02

more thoughtful and reflective.

352

: 00:21:03

Katta: Yeah, I guess.

353

: 00:21:05

Geri: And you also mentioned

that this was written with the

354

: 00:21:07

authors whose initial paper

355

: 00:21:09

Katta: you Yeah, with some of them.

356

: 00:21:11

Yeah.

357

: 00:21:13

Yeah, um, Daniela Lottridge and Oliver

Haimson were the co authors on that one.

358

: 00:21:19

Um, and they are two of

the original authors.

359

: 00:21:22

And it was just a paper where they kind

of, it's a very good paper actually.

360

: 00:21:26

I mean they show how, um, how different

groups conceptualize gender differently.

361

: 00:21:32

And so with the same way of asking gender,

in that case a free text form field,

362

: 00:21:36

they got wildly different responses

um, between fantasy football players.

363

: 00:21:41

Which is a thing that men

do in the US like cis men.

364

: 00:21:45

It's apparently very male coded.

365

: 00:21:47

I have no idea how that works.

366

: 00:21:48

I only from that paper, I

know that it even exists.

367

: 00:21:53

But, uh, and Tumblr users

who are notoriously queer.

368

: 00:21:56

Um, and so it was just like, you know, in

the one, in the first case, they got a lot

369

: 00:22:01

of like, but I'm a man, you can see that,

like, why are you even asking me that way?

370

: 00:22:05

And like, why is there a free

text, or whatever, silly answers.

371

: 00:22:09

And then the other one, there was like,

you know, nuance kind of like ways of

372

: 00:22:12

describing your gender and getting really

down to like a very like descriptive

373

: 00:22:16

way and even thank yous and all that.

374

: 00:22:19

Um, or like, you know, just the gender.

375

: 00:22:21

Um, but you had that kind of like palpable

difference between kind of being thankful

376

: 00:22:26

and, and for the opportunity to self

express gender and the other one of like,

377

: 00:22:29

why do you make me think that is a bit

mean as an interpretation on my end,

378

: 00:22:34

but like sometimes it feels like that.

379

: 00:22:36

Anyway, um, and that was really cool,

like how they showed that you have

380

: 00:22:42

to have nuance about these groups

and, um, and who you ask with, uh,

381

: 00:22:47

and who you are asking about gender.

382

: 00:22:49

Um, and then.

383

: 00:22:52

They come to, they came to the conclusion

that, um, you should have like female,

384

: 00:22:57

male, or men, uh, woman, man, and other.

385

: 00:23:00

And I was like, why do you

keep literally othering us?

386

: 00:23:03

Like, that's not necessarily a

great choice of words, uh, I feel.

387

: 00:23:08

And like, it got me, it was a bit

mad, cause like I, I like these

388

: 00:23:12

people and I was like, I expected

better from you, I thought you

389

: 00:23:17

had more understanding on that.

390

: 00:23:18

That was, I think, literally

something I said and they do.

391

: 00:23:22

And um, and then I really like that,

um, that revised, uh, recommendation.

392

: 00:23:29

First of all, it does

get a lot of attention.

393

: 00:23:31

That was not what I expected because

it's just an interactions article

394

: 00:23:34

that doesn't go fully through

peer review or anything, but, um.

395

: 00:23:39

But, uh, just that it also we have made

that part of like the article that you

396

: 00:23:45

have that continuous interaction, um,

with things, which is maybe something

397

: 00:23:50

that I should say in terms of like,

because I have the feeling that a

398

: 00:23:53

lot of people within our community.

399

: 00:23:57

So how do I phrase that?

400

: 00:23:59

So I've also been publicly

attacked or semi publicly for

401

: 00:24:02

being like, you know, for being

discriminatory towards white men.

402

: 00:24:09

Um, which, uh, which I'm saying

in this tone because that is

403

: 00:24:13

not how discrimination works.

404

: 00:24:15

But, um, Anyway, uh, I've been attacked

for that publicly and I also sometimes

405

: 00:24:22

encounter people who are like, Well,

of everything that I heard of you, it's

406

: 00:24:26

surprising that you're such a nice person.

407

: 00:24:28

Which I'm like, first

of all, I'm not nice.

408

: 00:24:30

But also, like, I'm not

sure what they heard.

409

: 00:24:33

Because like, it always comes up,

I was like afraid of meeting you.

410

: 00:24:35

And I'm like, why though?

411

: 00:24:37

Because like, I'm not sure.

412

: 00:24:39

But it seems kind of like, there

seems to be an image around.

413

: 00:24:42

That, you know, where I'm just

overly critical about things.

414

: 00:24:45

And I do express critique pretty

bluntly and pretty harshly.

415

: 00:24:49

That's fair.

416

: 00:24:50

But it's always towards the thing, right?

417

: 00:24:52

Like, that doesn't mean that

I'm not willing to talk.

418

: 00:24:56

That doesn't even mean

that I mean that I'm right.

419

: 00:24:59

But I do feel these things very strongly.

420

: 00:25:01

And so I do kind of like put them out

there very strongly in the ways that I,

421

: 00:25:07

you know, kind of like engage with them.

422

: 00:25:10

But that doesn't mean that those are

fixed or like set in stone either.

423

: 00:25:14

And like sometimes I feel it

doesn't come across that there is

424

: 00:25:19

more flexibility attached to that.

425

: 00:25:21

And I am not sure how to fix

that or whether it needs fixing.

426

: 00:25:27

But yeah, I think this article

particularly is a good example of

427

: 00:25:30

what can happen when you, when you

engage with critique that was brought

428

: 00:25:34

upon very bluntly, um, in a, in a

productive way that I think was then

429

: 00:25:40

beneficial to all of us ultimately.

430

: 00:25:42

Geri: So I I previously hadn't I, hadn't

ever thought about other as othering.

431

: 00:25:46

For me, it was good gesture

about non, like recognizing that

432

: 00:25:52

there are more than two genders.

433

: 00:25:54

So I guess it's a learning

journey for all of us as well.

434

: 00:25:57

Yeah, that's fine.

435

: 00:25:57

I sort of also feel like a lot of

this is changing as we go along and

436

: 00:26:01

as we're all learning and norms are

changing and cultural differences.

437

: 00:26:09

Katta: There are articles that I wrote

where I describe autism in ways that

438

: 00:26:13

make me feel ashamed about myself.

439

: 00:26:15

Yeah.

440

: 00:26:16

And now it is.

441

: 00:26:17

And like, this is fine.

442

: 00:26:19

I do, like, it's not fine.

443

: 00:26:20

It's not fine, um, in that regard,

but like, I also look at that and I'm

444

: 00:26:25

like, Okay, if I wouldn't have the

need or kind of like the feeling that

445

: 00:26:30

I would have done better since then.

446

: 00:26:33

Like.

447

: 00:26:34

What would it mean if I wouldn't

be ashamed of some of the things

448

: 00:26:37

that I did earlier because that

would mean that I've never developed

449

: 00:26:39

either and I haven't learned.

450

: 00:26:41

Yeah, and so I'm looking forward

to be ashamed about this interview.

451

: 00:26:45

Geri: Yeah , well, and I think that's

a really important point for all of us.

452

: 00:26:50

You know, like, we're human and

we're on a learning journey together.

453

: 00:26:56

And how do we Make space for all sorts

of people and ways and working out how to

454

: 00:27:03

practically do that how to talk about it

455

: 00:27:07

Katta: But like in the words

of Hanne De Jaegher, just

456

: 00:27:10

like letting them be as good.

457

: 00:27:12

Mmm.

458

: 00:27:13

Yeah It's also how they can do their

best work I feel no Yeah, like just

459

: 00:27:20

experiencing that with some of my students

who have made who like appreciate and,

460

: 00:27:25

just letting people be is, I think, a

good way of allowing them to, um, to do

461

: 00:27:32

their best work and kind of engage with,

with like the knowing part of it all.

462

: 00:27:35

Because like, the thing is, like, I

talk about this activism and I talk

463

: 00:27:38

about all these things, but ultimately

to me, that is also about kind of the.

464

: 00:27:42

fancier said, like epistemic plurality of

like the different ways of knowing because

465

: 00:27:47

like these different bodies have just like

different ways of engaging with the world.

466

: 00:27:50

And if we wouldn't have that space for

these different bodies, we would lose

467

: 00:27:54

out on so many perspectives and within

like, you know, within more classical

468

: 00:27:58

terms, you could describe that as

triangulation and like just like making

469

: 00:28:02

sure you have these different insights

and like these different ways of engaging.

470

: 00:28:07

And that ultimately makes for better

research and for better science.

471

: 00:28:10

And that is like my driver there as well.

472

: 00:28:11

Like, it's not just like, you

know, Oh, justice is great.

473

: 00:28:14

Justice is great, I guess.

474

: 00:28:16

But like, also, um, it's just,

this is the job that we're doing.

475

: 00:28:22

Oops.

476

: 00:28:26

Geri: So that knock at the door

was for, your next meeting.

477

: 00:28:30

So in, in looking at wrapping up, um,

I don't know, I feel like you have

478

: 00:28:38

so much to talk about and so much to

share and your openness about who

479

: 00:28:45

you are, your generosity and sharing

that, The fact that you are straight

480

: 00:28:50

and direct and that you challenge us

helps us all to be better and helps us

481

: 00:28:55

all to be in different ways as well.

482

: 00:28:58

And I think that there are probably

10 million other things that

483

: 00:29:02

I will want to have asked you.

484

: 00:29:05

But what are the things that you

would like to say just in wrapping up?

485

: 00:29:11

Katta: I don't know.

486

: 00:29:14

Like, I know, um, like, I feel, I

said, like, I didn't go into this,

487

: 00:29:18

like, with a particular agenda

of, like, sharing this or that.

488

: 00:29:22

I think it's, um, I think if

there's anything, then it's kind

489

: 00:29:28

of like, you know, um, that, that

people shouldn't be afraid about.

490

: 00:29:34

Figuring out who they are, because

like, that is actually a nice

491

: 00:29:38

thing to, to kind of like, do, no?

492

: 00:29:40

Mmm.

493

: 00:29:41

Like, also, um, Also like,

recognizing when that might differ.

494

: 00:29:48

Uh, no, not even that.

495

: 00:29:50

Like, when that, I was just

thinking, like, recognizing when that

496

: 00:29:52

differs, because that was one of the

motivators, like, after my diagnosis.

497

: 00:29:56

So then, kind of like, two things.

498

: 00:29:57

But no.

499

: 00:29:59

Maybe also just be curious about who these

other people are, to an extent, right?

500

: 00:30:03

Like,

501

: 00:30:05

Geri: Respectful curiosity.

502

: 00:30:06

Katta: Respectful.

503

: 00:30:08

Like, um, because there are kind of

like questions that are invasive.

504

: 00:30:13

But, oh, I wanted to, previously I

wanted to add, like, there are a bunch

505

: 00:30:17

of people who make experiences that I

have absolutely no idea how that is.

506

: 00:30:21

Um.

507

: 00:30:23

For example, like, I am hearing, so I

don't have any kind of insight into how

508

: 00:30:27

a deaf lived experience is, but also,

I have never been pregnant, and I will

509

: 00:30:31

never be pregnant, so, like, I don't

know how that is, and that seems like a

510

: 00:30:34

huge thing, I'm like, you know, kind of

like, you know, other people growing,

511

: 00:30:38

like, a life in their own body, that

must be hard, like, seems, seems like

512

: 00:30:42

a big thing, um, and, like, And, and

I'm bringing this example in particular

513

: 00:30:48

because that is so clearly something

that only specific people experience

514

: 00:30:52

and that we all have kind of a blasé

understanding about it as a difference.

515

: 00:30:56

And that is kind of like how I

wish that we would engage with

516

: 00:30:59

like how people are different.

517

: 00:31:00

Being a bit curious, being supportive,

but also like just like acknowledging

518

: 00:31:03

that that is the case and that's it.

519

: 00:31:06

Geri: I don't know if we have

time just for a quick comment.

520

: 00:31:10

One of the things that.

521

: 00:31:12

I feel is a tension is the thing of

the work that you've often talked

522

: 00:31:16

about needing to do to educate

people and, our response, people's

523

: 00:31:21

responsibility to be curious, respectfully

curious and educating themselves.

524

: 00:31:29

Katta: Yeah, but I mean, if

you have a culture at your lab.

525

: 00:31:34

Where you talk about your needs, right?

526

: 00:31:36

And where you accept those needs.

527

: 00:31:38

And where people feel free to kind

of like say, I don't know, actually.

528

: 00:31:41

Like, um, I mean we have people here at

the institute, which is great, who have

529

: 00:31:45

like the sign at their door, who are like,

if this door is closed then slack us if

530

: 00:31:49

you need anything but don't just barge in.

531

: 00:31:51

Because they need that space, but they

also feel comfortable just saying that.

532

: 00:31:55

And I feel like it doesn't

always have to be asking.

533

: 00:31:59

Um, it can just be accepting

and that letting be.

534

: 00:32:01

And, um.

535

: 00:32:03

But if you have a culture where people

can have the freedom to reflect on what

536

: 00:32:08

they need and then actually ask for it, or

kind of like, you know, set the parameters

537

: 00:32:12

so that they get that, that is great.

538

: 00:32:14

How to kind of like, you know,

actually facilitate that and like

539

: 00:32:18

how that makes it work, you are

much more the expert on that.

540

: 00:32:21

I'm just trying to emulate that.

541

: 00:32:25

Um, ultimately, yeah, just,

um, yeah, showing an interest.

542

: 00:32:34

Like it doesn't, like, at least the thing

is like if you do it strategically, so

543

: 00:32:38

to speak, I don't feel it makes sense and

then it, the whole purpose is gone again.

544

: 00:32:42

Mm.

545

: 00:32:43

Because I had that once, um, I had

a colleague who kept on asking me

546

: 00:32:47

questions about things that I had the

feeling that I, they had an answer and

547

: 00:32:52

they just wanted me to get there myself.

548

: 00:32:56

And, and I totally get

where that comes from.

549

: 00:32:59

And that is good advice that you

ask people to kind of like come to

550

: 00:33:02

their own solutions, but you also

need to be prepared that those

551

: 00:33:05

might be different from your own.

552

: 00:33:06

And they weren't necessarily always.

553

: 00:33:09

And so.

554

: 00:33:10

So, in that regard, like, that's kind of

like, you know, that's what I mean with

555

: 00:33:14

like, don't be too strategic about it.

556

: 00:33:15

It needs to come from a place

where you kind of like, you

557

: 00:33:18

know, just want to do that.

558

: 00:33:19

Um, where you are then kind of like with

this example, when you want to know about

559

: 00:33:24

these other answers that are out there.

560

: 00:33:27

Geri: So a lovely invitation

to end on for people.

561

: 00:33:31

I don't know, because we're all

different in different ways.

562

: 00:33:34

Yeah.

563

: 00:33:34

And some, you know, there's some

that maybe fit more of a normatively

564

: 00:33:39

oriented model than bodies and ways

of being, but whatever that might

565

: 00:33:44

mean, is there anything normative?

566

: 00:33:46

Katta: And again, like they

probably, probably not, right.

567

: 00:33:49

But like in terms of normative, but

like, that doesn't mean they had it easy.

568

: 00:33:54

That means sometimes they had like, um,

Like privileges are difficult to kind of

569

: 00:33:59

understand, but because like we're not

actively, or we're not necessarily taught

570

: 00:34:05

to actively reflect on them, or sometimes

it's just like something we notice.

571

: 00:34:09

Like car drivers don't notice the

entire infrastructure that is up for

572

: 00:34:13

them that we chose over public transit.

573

: 00:34:16

I mean, not here, but like, you

know, there, there's just access

574

: 00:34:20

provided in some ways and then

you often don't think about it.

575

: 00:34:23

To come back to that previous thing

and then you don't have to think

576

: 00:34:26

about it because it's just there

and then that friction of not being

577

: 00:34:29

afforded it is sometimes more palpable.

578

: 00:34:32

And, and, you know, a lot of people,

um, might not experience specific

579

: 00:34:39

kinds of access frictions, but that

doesn't mean that they experience none

580

: 00:34:43

or that, you know, um, their, their

struggles aren't relevant as struggles.

581

: 00:34:50

So I would sometimes.

582

: 00:34:52

Like to, um, kind of like have,

like I would like to see a

583

: 00:34:58

bit more solidarity sometimes.

584

: 00:35:00

So for example, with cis women, I

sometimes have the feeling that they,

585

: 00:35:05

um, that they limit the term of their

womanhood, but also like the term

586

: 00:35:09

of their solidarity in ways that are

unhelpful to everyone and then they

587

: 00:35:14

just reproduce patterns of power that

are harmful ultimately to them as well.

588

: 00:35:19

Or, um.

589

: 00:35:22

Or that sometimes we kind

of like try to override, um,

590

: 00:35:26

others experiences with our own.

591

: 00:35:29

Geri: Lots of food for thought.

592

: 00:35:30

Thank you very much, Katta.

593

: 00:35:32

Glad we finally did get

to sit down and chat.

594

: 00:35:35

Katta: And now you know about the die.

595

: 00:35:36

Geri: And now I know about the die.

596

: 00:35:39

And the six sided die,

that I didn't know that.

597

: 00:35:42

Great.

598

: 00:35:43

Thank you.

599

: 00:35:45

And that's the end of my

conversation with Katta.

600

: 00:35:48

So much food for thought there.

601

: 00:35:50

And what I find really amazing is

I've worked with Katta for years and.

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: 00:35:55

I guess we talked here in a

way that we don't often talk

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: 00:35:59

day to day and it reminds me.

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: 00:36:02

That it's worth taking time to sit

down and chat with colleagues and

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: 00:36:06

getting to know them in a different

way beyond the day-to-day conversations

606

: 00:36:10

that we might normally have.

607

: 00:36:14

And I love Katta's call out to us

just to allow people space, to be.

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: 00:36:21

And embracing the fact that there

are very different ways of being

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: 00:36:25

and knowing, And accepting that.

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: 00:36:30

And that doesn't just mean about the

bigger labeled ways in the, in the neuro

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: 00:36:34

divergent ways that, gender specific ways

that Katta has talked about Katta also was

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: 00:36:38

very generous in pointing to ways that.

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: 00:36:41

We're all different and have

different experiences that

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: 00:36:43

we often don't think about.

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: 00:36:46

So I leave that with us

as for myself as well.

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: 00:36:51

As a prompt.

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: 00:36:53

Just to be more reflective about the

ways in which we're all different.

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: 00:36:57

And being curious about that in a

respectful, way, and in a way that's

619

: 00:37:04

about the curiosity, aiming to allow

the space for people to be themselves.

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: 00:37:09

And as Katta said, where

they can do their best work.

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: 00:37:16

You can find the summary

notes, a transcript and related

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: 00:37:19

links for this podcast on www.

623

: 00:37:23

changingacademiclife.

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: 00:37:25

com.

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: 00:37:26

You can also subscribe to

Changing Academic Life on iTunes,

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: 00:37:30

Spotify and Google Podcasts.

627

: 00:37:32

And you can follow

ChangeAcadLife on Twitter.

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: 00:37:36

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

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: 00:37:39

we can do academia differently.

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: 00:37:42

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

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: 00:37:46

And if something connected with

you, please consider sharing this

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: 00:37:50

podcast with your colleagues.

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: 00:37:52

Together, we can make change happen.