Liam Bannon (Part 1) on a career outside the box

Geri: 00:00:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

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I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

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others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

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we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

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Liam: The point is that there's also new

ideas and, and kind of ways of thinking

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about problems that really, if we don't

allow that, if we don't give people

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some space to think outside the box,

like we're going to be stuck in the box.

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it's and it's a very small, I

believe it's a very small box.

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Geri: That's the voice of Liam

Bannon my guest in this episode.

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And Liam was never one

to be stuck in the boxes.

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Liam is a professor emeritus and he

was the founder and director of the

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interaction design center at the

university of Limerick in Ireland.

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As you'll hear in, Liam's

telling of his own story.

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He was always looking for

the links and ideas outside

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of, and in between the boxes.

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He's been a hugely influential

thinker writer and researcher.

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Along with his various collaborators.

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In shaping work around

technology and design.

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Contributing, especially to the

areas of human computer interaction.

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HCI and computer supported cooperative

work CSCW and doing so drawing on his

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very broad disciplinary interests.

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One thing I think is particularly

interesting, given all that is happening

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now with AI artificial intelligence.

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are his reflections on being around the

first wave of AI in the: 1970

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it's also really interesting the way

his career story provides a personalized

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account in a way of the story of the

development of the fields of HCI.

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And CSCW.

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More generally.

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I think his story is an example of the

opportunities and challenges that come

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from trying to shape your own path.

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And follow what you really

believe in and what interests you.

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Albeit recognizing that he was able to

do this in a different era of academia.

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Starting at around 37 minutes he also

steps back from some of the details

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of his career and reflects more

generally across some of these issues.

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I should say here that we

recorded this interview in: 2017

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Yes.

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You heard that right.

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And this was at the ECSCW

conference in Sheffield.

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So a small heads up , because we

were in person there's some cross

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microphone capture and back channeling.

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So it may not be as clean as

if we recorded remotely, but

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still more than understandable.

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And I'll also just add that at this time.

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And in the ensuing period, Liam

has been dealing with some really

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significant and serious health issues.

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We're going to record a part two of

our conversation to continue some

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reflections on these experiences.

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As well as his more general

reflections and lessons learned that

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we can take away from his career.

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So I hope you enjoy this

conversation with Liam Bannon.

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I'm really delighted to be able

to speak with you today, Liam.

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So thanks for giving me the time.

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For people who don't know

you, just a little bit of

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context about your background.

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What, your first degree was

cognitive science, psychology?

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Liam: Well, it was science,

actually, it was a science.

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I had an interest in school in both.

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the arts and the sciences and

so it was a bit of a problem

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as to what direction to go in.

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remember this teacher saying, do science,

you might get a job at the end of it.

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So I did science, so it was maths,

physics, chemistry, biology.

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My interest was chemistry really,

but in terms of those subjects.

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But in the second year of my undergraduate

and that degree, they had a new program

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of maths, psychology, computer science.

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This is back in 1971.

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Geri: That's that's a bit

of a radical combination.

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Liam: Yeah, it was a bit strange

because psychology was actually in the

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arts building, in the arts faculty.

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And, uh, computer science had just been

introduced as an undergraduate subject

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the year before, 1970, so it was very new

as an undergraduate, so I didn't really

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know much about psychology or computing.

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I remember going out that

summer before the start.

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It just appealed to me as something

a bit different so there were about

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12 of us who took that option.

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and and of that 12, then we were

traipsed over to psychology lectures

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in the arts building every, every day.

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And, uh, I really enjoyed it because what

psychology, the undergraduate program in

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UCD in Dublin was a very general one that

meant you, introduced you to everything,

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all different areas, animal behavior,

perception, learning, memory, educational

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psychology, personality, statistics.

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Physiology, you know,

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Geri: Wow yeah

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Liam: it allowed, I just found it,

it was great because I knew in a

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sense I was really a wordsmith.

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My interests were more

English history and that.

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So this opened out that, it put me back

even though I was in a science program.

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Then we, the third year we did

computer science and psychology.

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At that stage didn't have an

honors degree in computing.

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So we just had a general degree

in computing and then the final

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year we just did psychology.

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So I ended up, and that, in that

last year especially, I became

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interested in relationships between

the two, computing and psychology.

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And there were two areas,

obviously, of interest.

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One was the modeling, thinking of

the computer as a model for the mind.

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And so a lot of psychologists

were thinking of inputs and the

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information processing model.

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And of course I was interested in that.

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Another area was, of course then the

idea of artificial intelligence, and

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I became interested in thinking of the

computer as a model for the mind, as

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something to help us understand the mind.

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I was interested basically in

cognition and thinking, the mind,

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language, they were my main interests.

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Um, I also found computing

interesting and, you know, some

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of the semantics of programming

languages and things like that.

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Some, some aspects of

computing I found interesting.

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The second area of interest, which was a

more practical one, was that I worked As

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both an instructor in computing, but also

on the help desk in the computing center.

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And I started to pay attention

to the concerns of people

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with using the technology.

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And this is in the days

of punch cards and that.

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But there was still this issue of like

people, errors that people people were

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making in compiling and running programs.

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And so I had that sort of human

factors interest in computing systems.

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So what that led to was a feeling

I wanted to move on, but I was, I

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wanted to be more in psychology, on

the human science side, than on the

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computing side I wanted to do both.

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So I, there was an opportunity to do a

Masters in computing in Trinity in Dublin.

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One year I kind of taught Masters,

they just started in computer science.

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And we had some funding for it.

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So I did that for a year and I did a small

project on looking at programming errors.

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So I collected data on people

running programs and what were the

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most frequent errors and things.

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It was a fairly basic, uh,

logging study basically.

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Um, and then I was thinking about

doing further work and so I was looking

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for positions or doctoral positions.

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outside of Ireland, so

mainly in North America.

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And I was thinking about, I wanted

to, to be sort of in AI, but not

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in, Like the straight computer

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Geri: Yeah, the technical

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Liam: So I was looking for people

who had psychology in computing.

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And at that time there were about

three, three or four groups.

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There were some of the Carnegie

Mellon people crossed, like

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Newell and Simon and that.

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There was Norman and Lindsay

and Rumelhart, kind of

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the people at San Diego.

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There was a couple of people in

Washington State, Hunt and some people.

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And then I I was reading at this stage

kind of AI articles and I was a member of

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SIGART and I used to get the newsletter

and I was quite young and trying to learn.

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We didn't have courses on AI now.

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Matter of fact, our psychology teacher

was totally against the idea of AI.

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And, uh, but I felt it was, I was kind

of a proponent of thinking of it as

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a new way of thinking about the mind.

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So.

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I, by chance came across an article.

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By somebody who wrote a review

of IJHCI 73, I I think it was.

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This was in 74 or so.

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And it was by this guy with a very

strange name called Zenon Pilishin.

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And, uh, who, and I was

curious, who is this guy?

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And he was at a place called the

University of Western Ontario.

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I said, where's that?

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And he said, it's in London,

Ontario, in Canada, near Toronto.

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And I looked up his background,

and he was an interesting mix.

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Mix, he was an engineer initially

who then did psychology So he

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had a computing background and

a, and a psychology background.

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He also had interest in

philosophy of science.

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But he was in the psychology

department two thirds and one

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third in computer science.

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Geri: So you recognized a kindred spirit.

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Liam: So I thought this might

be somebody interesting.

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And then I contacted him and he sent

me a couple of papers and I read them.

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And I, What the Mind's Eye

Tells the Mind's Brain, one

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of his very classic papers.

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And I thought this is

interesting, so I went there.

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Geri: So I'm going to put a link

on the web page to an article that,

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someone wrote after interviewing

you that actually talks through

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all of your career moves and that.

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One of the things that really what

strikes me when I think about you

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is, and it's reflected in what you

said at the very beginning about your

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interest, is how eclectic you are.

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And what I think you've done in terms of

contributing to the field is doing a lot

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of that bridging between different fields.

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And often being at the forefront of

some of the new bridges that emerge.

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Whether that's some of the early

cognitive science stuff or the

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participatory design stuff or, yeah.

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How how did you, how did you.

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Get to the sort of lead of these waves.

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Liam: Well, because in a sense, I

mean, around that time, cognitive

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psychology was reaching out in terms

of trying to understand the mind.

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And so it was the start of the whole,

the cognitive movement was 60s with

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Bruner and, um, Miller Galanter, pre

brain plans and structural behavior.

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So that had been on.

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nicer cognitive psychology.

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So this was the first movement in

terms of trying to understand more,

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thinking of the mechanisms of the mind.

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And so in that sense, one example of

mechanism we had was the computer.

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So it became interesting to think

about how could we, if we build, it

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wasn't the idea of building a robot

so much that wasn't of interest to me.

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It was the idea of having a mechanism

by which We might be able to explore

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the functional way in which something

could happen in terms of the mind.

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Um, so that was what was

of interest initially.

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And so in that sense, cognitive

science was emerging around this time.

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And actually my supervisor, Zenon, was

one of the major players in that whole

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emergence of cognitive science in the 80s.

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Uh, or in the 70s, late 70s, mid 70s.

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So I was kind of aware of his

circle of people and contacts.

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He was visiting at M.

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I.

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T.

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at the A.

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I.

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Lab.

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He was visiting with

people at Carnegie Mellon.

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We were on the ARPANET.

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We had a dial into the ARPANET

even in those early days.

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So I was kind of aware of, you know,

It was the first time for me like

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being in a research environment

where here was somebody who was

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intellectually in the vanguard,

kind of connected in this movement.

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So interdisciplinarity, mixing kind

of computing, psychology, and also to

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some extent like fostering neuroscience

is kind of thinking about mind.

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Um, So that was one phase, kind of the,

and linguistics also actually, language

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and language mechanisms was also in there.

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So that was cognitive science and then a

few years later we had, I could explain

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like HCI to me then was a emergence of

people and I've written a little bit

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about this in terms of my view of how

that emerged kind of partly with some

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people on the technical side becoming

curious why people weren't using the

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software and also on the psychology

side in terms of thinking of an applied

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psychology area of people using technology

and thinking about, um, this idea of,

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uh, the information processing model

that we could ascribe kind of both

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computers and humans in the same way and

describe them as processing information.

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And then after HCI, then you

had CSCW, and that really

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Geri: Which is Computer Supported

Cooperative Work, which is trying

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to bring attention to the social

and collaborative aspects of

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Liam: To me, though, the common element

was really about going back going back

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to even earlier, the Human Factors in

Computer Systems, which is the original

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title of HCI, of the HCI conference.

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Um, and there was some work back in

the 70s, and in fact there was an

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early Atwood and Ramsey, back in 78,

I think it was, had a bibliography

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of work in Human Factors in Computer

Systems, which I got hold of, um, in 78.

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I spent a year, 78, 79, at Honeywell, Uh,

in Minnesota as a human factors intern.

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But I wrote to them.

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They were looking for more

traditional performance.

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human factors people.

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But I wrote and said, well, they should

actually be interested in computing

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because more people were using

computers and computer based systems and

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cognitive science was an emerging area.

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And so, tongue in cheek a little, I

said they should hire somebody who had

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this mix of backgrounds in computing.

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Geri: And lo and behold,

you know, I'm your man.

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Liam: And so they took a, took a gamble.

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I was one of three people.

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The other two were, had more

traditional human engineering programs.

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But actually, it turned out,

quite interesting that year, um,

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in ways that I hadn't expected.

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Part of, also because I had a link

with the University of Minnesota, the

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Center for Research in Human Learning,

Jim Jenkins group, and there were some

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very interesting graduate students

there who I found very interesting.

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There were also people at Honeywell,

but what they discovered was in a way

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that the fact that I had some computing

background as well and my interest in

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that area was actually quite suited to

some of the projects they were doing.

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And, uh, also opened my eyes a

little bit to working in the military

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industrial complex because a lot

of the projects at Honeywell were,

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uh, on the defense system side.

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And that was something new to me given

I come from Ireland and Canada, where

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it wasn't very big or non existent.

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Well, not quite non existent.

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There are a few projects defense

projects in Canada, but not a lot of

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the communications and technology work

in Canada wasn't military related.

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So, is so what I'm saying is that to my

mind, the common element of all of this

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in going on to interaction design and

participatory design, the common element

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was really that I was interested in, not

just in the mechanisms in terms of the

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technology, but in terms of the fact that

how it could supposedly support people.

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So my interest always had been in

thinking of the technology as a medium

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through which, which allowed people to do

things, either in terms of being a tool

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or in terms of being a medium through

which they could connect with others.

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My interest wasn't in trying to extract

human expertise into the machine.

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but rather thinking of the

machine as a tool or artefact.

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Geri: Yeah.

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Liam: And that became more, it started

out as a rather naive understanding,

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kind of in a sense just a concern about

trying to support people, and also being

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concerned that I found a lot of people on

the technology side Just viewed people as

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stupid who had problems, you know, that

they were stupid users, you know, they

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didn't understand their, it's obvious,

you know, it was, and I found this is

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really like at a certain moral level.

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I felt this was objectionable.

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It cast thinking of most

people in the world as being.

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And also a bad design stance to be

taking because I think it's led to

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designing systems for idiots rather

than trying to think about designing

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for competent human practitioners.

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And in that sense also, when I went

to California as a post doc to Don

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Norman's group, I spent also a lot of

time, Interacting with a group there,

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Mike Cole and his group, the Laboratory

for Comparative Human Cognition.

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And they were, Interested in cultural

historical activity theory and

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Vygotsky traditions and a major

aspect of that was the idea of

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thinking of mediating artifacts.

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Vygotsky's notions of language as a

mediator in terms of communication.

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And the idea that mind is not

just something that is individual,

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that we move from the individual.

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The standard notion from the more

traditional psychology was we'd

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individual mind, then we might

talk about the group or the social

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mind, the mass or something larger.

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it was very much, the first thing

was the individual and the self,

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kind of an individual creation.

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Whereas in this other view,

when you start reading Vygotsky,

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kind of Vygotsky mind is social.

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And so the notion that we go from,

Inter to intra rather than from

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intra to inter, I found fascinating.

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So there was a theoretical framework

that I became interested in, in terms of

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looking at, in a sense, the ecosystem.

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It wasn't just the individual

using the technology, which is very

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much the focus of a lot of HCI.

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But even from those early days, I had

an interest in something larger than

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that individual human computer dyad.

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And I think that's reflected actually, I

mean, I, in the work I did at San Diego,

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: 00:19:19

not that it was not very, um, it was very

naive, it wasn't very well theoretically

305

: 00:19:25

grounded, it wasn't experimentally well

founded, but in my own thinking, my time

306

: 00:19:31

there, and to give credit to Don, although

at times he was unsure where I was going

307

: 00:19:38

and what going I was doing, he actually

gave me the space and, and, you know,

308

: 00:19:42

opened, allowed me to actually explore.

309

: 00:19:45

And that time in San Diego was

very, very important in terms of my

310

: 00:19:49

intellectual development, in terms of

trying to kind of understand more and

311

: 00:19:56

framing how to talk about these things.

312

: 00:19:58

And even though the output from my

time there is quite little, it can be

313

: 00:20:03

seen in actually a tech report, parts

of which appeared in three chapters in

314

: 00:20:07

the user centered system design book.

315

: 00:20:10

But if you read those

316

: 00:20:11

has been really pivotal, I'm not

sure about that, I don't think so,

317

: 00:20:15

but it influenced a few people.

318

: 00:20:17

But I don't think it comes across as

strongly in the three pieces because

319

: 00:20:22

they're in separate parts of the book.

320

: 00:20:24

All noise.

321

: 00:20:25

A little piece called Issues in Design.

322

: 00:20:27

And that's talking a little bit about

the ethics of design and about how we

323

: 00:20:31

think about, you know, idiot proof design

how think about, you how we think about

324

: 00:20:35

and the people we're designing for.

325

: 00:20:38

Just a very small note, a few

pages, but the second piece was on

326

: 00:20:41

the social, well it ended up being

called Helping Users Help Each Other.

327

: 00:20:45

But that piece was really talking about

the social context of design, saying

328

: 00:20:50

you know, why are we spending all this

effort on building help systems Computer

329

: 00:20:55

automated Help systems, and yet we do

very few studies of how they're used.

330

: 00:21:00

Yeah.

331

: 00:21:00

And in act of fact,

they're not used a lot.

332

: 00:21:02

And partly the reason is because

they're written from the perspective of

333

: 00:21:05

the machine and they describe all the

features of the machine, but they're not

334

: 00:21:10

written from a human practice perspective

as we would say today in terms of an

335

: 00:21:14

understanding of how do we use what's

useful here in the specific context

336

: 00:21:19

of our work and when we want to do.

337

: 00:21:22

Something to make these systems

usable in our daily context.

338

: 00:21:26

We talk to our neighbor or somebody.

339

: 00:21:28

And so, why?

340

: 00:21:30

Geri: yeah,

341

: 00:21:30

Liam: in that, I try to raise this issue

of how, how do we find out information?

342

: 00:21:35

Rather than going to these help systems,

we actually, very often, we ask others.

343

: 00:21:38

We ask people who have similar

practices and we learn from them.

344

: 00:21:41

And then, how come we never

talk about that in HCI?

345

: 00:21:44

How come we don't think,

is there some way?

346

: 00:21:48

And the next stage of that for

me was, is there some way through

347

: 00:21:51

the system we could have access to

others in terms of online resources?

348

: 00:21:56

Not to a piece of dead text,

but actually to live people.

349

: 00:22:01

So in a sense, the third chapter is

on computer mediated communication.

350

: 00:22:06

Not in the classic sense of just how

email comparing online and offline,

351

: 00:22:11

but I put out a query on the early

internet which was, An unused net,

352

: 00:22:17

which was asking about collaboration

tools, using the technology as a medium.

353

: 00:22:22

And the chapter is computers

as communication devices.

354

: 00:22:26

So, saying not to look at the

computer as a calculator or as a

355

: 00:22:29

substitute human, rather as a medium

through which we can communicate.

356

: 00:22:33

And it's kind of ironic in a sense,

because the whole interest in social

357

: 00:22:37

media, you could say, and exactly what

Facebook does, it's, it's a medium.

358

: 00:22:41

Geri: Exactly.

359

: 00:22:42

So much of what we use technology for now.

360

: 00:22:44

So, when you look back, because you

have had many sort of shifts and

361

: 00:22:50

moves and explorations throughout

your career as these ideas, you

362

: 00:22:54

know, evolve and new, new contacts

are made and you go to new places.

363

: 00:23:00

When you look back, what are the sorts

of things where you think you have

364

: 00:23:04

made a really strong contribution or

the things that you're proudest of?

365

: 00:23:09

Liam: Well, I don't know.

366

: 00:23:09

It's hard sometimes because in

a sense I'm, I'm a bit of a sham

367

: 00:23:13

in some sense, like in terms

of a standard research profile.

368

: 00:23:17

Because I think the contribution I

make is rather, a rather elusive one.

369

: 00:23:23

It's kind of a and elusive.

370

: 00:23:27

Allusive and allusive and alluding

to, and I think my, you see the

371

: 00:23:33

papers I write, most of them, they're

not, well I have a few pieces where

372

: 00:23:38

there's empirical work and that's also

sometimes done with people in my group.

373

: 00:23:42

But I think the contribution that I

make is often trying to point to topics

374

: 00:23:48

or issues and bringing in material

that I think should be relevant.

375

: 00:23:52

In some cases I don't have a strong

conceptual fame from first principles.

376

: 00:23:57

In some cases I work with people

because of course I have a specific

377

: 00:24:01

view on certain things, but I also am

influenced by, hugely by my collaborators.

378

: 00:24:06

And I've had a huge

number of collaborators.

379

: 00:24:08

I really like working with people.

380

: 00:24:11

And a lot of the people's, in some

of the pieces that are more well

381

: 00:24:14

known, of course, a lot of this strong

kind of conceptual work is often

382

: 00:24:20

done by my colleagues, I will say.

383

: 00:24:22

But what I do is help shape it and

frame it and, and relate it in a way.

384

: 00:24:27

And I think, so I play this role that.

385

: 00:24:29

I think if we all did this, there'd be

very little empirical research done of

386

: 00:24:33

the proper kind maybe, but I think there

is a space for trying to, trying to move

387

: 00:24:41

forward in terms of, not always trying

to be, quote, new, but it's trying to,

388

: 00:24:45

in actual fact, part of what I think My

contribution is in trying to say, what's

389

: 00:24:50

out there that we might learn from?

390

: 00:24:52

What other bodies of work may be

relevant that we seem to be ignoring?

391

: 00:24:56

And in a sense, although in some

cases, it might appear at first that

392

: 00:25:00

I'm all over the place, actually, I

think there is a core, and the core,

393

: 00:25:05

It's basically, in a sense, human

centered design, or a focus on people.

394

: 00:25:11

And it so happens, because I

did computing, I'm surrounded by

395

: 00:25:15

people working with technology and

artifacts and systems that supposedly

396

: 00:25:19

support people, but yet they don't.

397

: 00:25:21

So I was very happy with CSCW, Computer

Support for Collaborative Work, and

398

: 00:25:26

Kjeld and I, Kjeld Schmidt, you know,

One of my major collaborators for

399

: 00:25:29

many years, um, like what we were

interested in was that idea of support

400

: 00:25:36

for people and people's practices

401

: 00:25:38

Geri: Yeah.

402

: 00:25:38

Liam: not starting out with just

groupware or technology but to understand

403

: 00:25:43

how people do things and then how we

can maybe design better technology

404

: 00:25:48

that fits into those practices.

405

: 00:25:50

And in that sense, like it also led me

into an interest in with the sociology

406

: 00:25:56

and anthropology people like Lucy

Suchman's work originally and in showing

407

: 00:26:01

again how you know, understanding the

context of work, the local organization

408

: 00:26:06

of work, and then the ethnomethodology

people and the sociologists with their

409

: 00:26:11

concern about members practices and

the way in which work is something

410

: 00:26:15

that is achieved, not a given.

411

: 00:26:17

And so it gave a lens, a very detailed

account of how work gets done, which

412

: 00:26:22

I thought was extremely helpful for

people in design to think about and to

413

: 00:26:27

realize not to talk about abstractions.

414

: 00:26:30

Geri: Or to talk about the stupid user.

415

: 00:26:32

Exactly.

416

: 00:26:33

So you're a really good example of

taking advantage of having eclectic

417

: 00:26:39

interests and being broad intellectually.

418

: 00:26:43

There's some ways in which now

many of our measures almost sort

419

: 00:26:47

of presume or require us to be

deep and to be known for one thing.

420

: 00:26:52

But but you've crafted a career, probably

not intentionally, I'm assuming, in,

421

: 00:26:58

in being able to exploit the synergies

at, at these intersections and with

422

: 00:27:02

very diverse collaborators because

you have these broad interests.

423

: 00:27:06

Liam: I thought the way you

phrased the question, maybe, I

424

: 00:27:11

think it might, What bothers me?

425

: 00:27:13

Well, what bothers me?

426

: 00:27:14

People are always saying I'm concerned

about things, this, having concerns.

427

: 00:27:19

Um, yeah, it concerns me a little because

it makes it sound a bit as if eclectic.

428

: 00:27:24

So, you do lots of different things

and then maybe you can bring them in.

429

: 00:27:28

I think there's a sense in which, as

I said, my interest is in people, in,

430

: 00:27:32

you know, Not just moving out from

psychology, it's not just the individual

431

: 00:27:36

mind, because I I don't believe there

is so much in the individual mind.

432

: 00:27:40

And also, ironically, although I was

trained in cognitive psychology and

433

: 00:27:45

information processing psychology, I've

actually, you know, I became disillusioned

434

: 00:27:49

with that in the, actually quite early

on in the mid, late 70s even when I was

435

: 00:27:54

doing my thesis and I, I kind of became

very, antithetical to the AI movement

436

: 00:28:00

and became very critical of it because it

seemed to all the time posit as if though,

437

: 00:28:06

you know, that sort of the mind, the

computer was a good mechanism for a model

438

: 00:28:13

of what it is to be human of the mind, and

I don't think it is, it might have it's

439

: 00:28:18

a model, but it leaves out a whole lot

of things, like in that Early days, it's

440

: 00:28:22

like, we didn't talk about emotions, we

didn't, emotions were some epiphenomenon,

441

: 00:28:27

or, we didn't, we ignored it, and yet

emotions are so fundamental to what it is

442

: 00:28:31

to be human, yet, for many years it was

ignored, so, I mean, my interest moved

443

: 00:28:37

more in terms of, Understanding humans,

the human, humankind, in a sense, more

444

: 00:28:44

sociological, anthropological perspectives

on understanding society, the nature of

445

: 00:28:50

human society, and the evolution of, in

that sense, my interest in artifacts.

446

: 00:28:56

It's not just about, you know, Industrial

design, but it or buildings or whatever,

447

: 00:29:01

which I'm also interested in people living

in spaces because my interest is in human

448

: 00:29:06

activity and human activity is also,

449

: 00:29:09

Geri: all of these,

450

: 00:29:10

Liam: but it encompasses artifacts that

we make from the earliest tool, man as

451

: 00:29:16

a tool user, like we, we live in houses,

we have habitation, we domesticate

452

: 00:29:20

animals, we have, we live with others.

453

: 00:29:22

So in the sense that interest in

people is fundamental and because

454

: 00:29:28

I did computing the interest then

becomes the artifacts that we create

455

: 00:29:32

in these new kinds of artifacts since

the dawn of computing, which don't,

456

: 00:29:37

in many cases, disrupt our, our lives.

457

: 00:29:41

Can we do it better?

458

: 00:29:43

But the problem is always that

too much we focus on the artifact.

459

: 00:29:46

How can this app help us in our lives?

460

: 00:29:49

And what I've been trying to do because

from a work point of view, I've normally

461

: 00:29:54

ended up in computing departments

because that's where there are jobs.

462

: 00:29:58

But I've always, in a sense,

that informatics informatics

463

: 00:30:01

should also encompass the social.

464

: 00:30:03

Actually social informatics, I mean

Rob Kling and others use that term,

465

: 00:30:08

that but I don't even like the term

because to me informatics is social.

466

: 00:30:14

Is inherently foundationally social

because it's about people and artifacts.

467

: 00:30:18

And if you're going to design

artifacts, people are going to

468

: 00:30:22

work with them and therefore you

should know something about people.

469

: 00:30:25

It doesn't mean you train them as

psychologists or anthropologists or

470

: 00:30:29

ethnographers, but anybody studying

computing it should also encompass

471

: 00:30:34

Like, the context in which computing

developed, back to the days of, even

472

: 00:30:39

you go back to Babbage and calculating

machines, I mean, he also needed

473

: 00:30:44

locksmiths and, uh, designers and

blacksmiths to build those tools and

474

: 00:30:50

we very often ignore the skill sets

of these people in creating the things

475

: 00:30:56

and in using, in fashioning a product.

476

: 00:31:00

so human computer, I I don't

like the term human computer

477

: 00:31:04

interaction, by the way, but that's

478

: 00:31:05

Geri: Me either.

479

: 00:31:06

Liam: story.

480

: 00:31:06

I don't like the term user, I don't,

481

: 00:31:08

Geri: That reflects your, your,

your focus on the human person.

482

: 00:31:13

You're like very much

483

: 00:31:14

Liam: Yeah, the human

society really, yeah.

484

: 00:31:16

And that is the common thread.

485

: 00:31:18

So for me, The interest in CSCW, the

interest in designing interactive

486

: 00:31:22

systems is more the interest in the

design process on how we open up design,

487

: 00:31:29

on how we try to democratize design.

488

: 00:31:30

My interest in participative

design, when I first encountered

489

: 00:31:34

it in the, early 80s was through

some of the work in Scandinavia.

490

: 00:31:39

And again, I've been very influenced

by many people there and my link with

491

: 00:31:43

Aarhus, with Susanne Bødker others

have been very influential for me.

492

: 00:31:49

But my interest was.

493

: 00:31:50

I felt at the time in San Diego we

were doing user centered design,

494

: 00:31:54

focusing on the user in the sense of

psychologists understanding the user.

495

: 00:31:59

But we weren't really, Still at

the point of involvement in design.

496

: 00:32:02

Geri: Yeah.

497

: 00:32:02

Yeah

498

: 00:32:03

Liam: And that idea of actually

reading about people, really

499

: 00:32:05

involving working with people in

trade unions and the workers, kind

500

: 00:32:09

of an understanding their expertise.

501

: 00:32:11

So I loved this idea.

502

: 00:32:13

One of the papers somebody wrote

about, you know, not expert

503

: 00:32:16

systems, but system for experts.

504

: 00:32:18

You know, the idea of, and another

early influence of mine, that many

505

: 00:32:23

people may not have heard of, that

I've been influenced by as an Irish

506

: 00:32:27

engineer, who worked, at Lucas

and Lucas Aerospace, Mike Cooley.

507

: 00:32:34

And I heard Mike Cooley talk in the early

seventies and was very influenced by that.

508

: 00:32:39

And he had an interest in the work of Marx

and manual labor and tools and the notion

509

: 00:32:44

of skill and tool sets and technology.

510

: 00:32:47

Building on that, not, so I'm

not trying to make an antithesis,

511

: 00:32:52

Geri: Yeah.

512

: 00:32:52

Liam: I'm trying to rethink the

relationship between people, tools,

513

: 00:32:56

computers, in ways that are very

different to the thinking that I

514

: 00:33:01

found in a lot of computer science

and AI, which was very much kind of,

515

: 00:33:06

you know, the human as a meat machine,

of, like, as a machine, basically.

516

: 00:33:13

Geri: Mm-Hmm.

517

: 00:33:14

Liam: The other influence, I

guess, back in the late 70s, early

518

: 00:33:16

80s was Terry Winograd and his

work with Flores and that one.

519

: 00:33:20

The emerging drafts of

that book I was privy to.

520

: 00:33:24

And that helped me in the idea of

moving from, you know, to realize

521

: 00:33:28

that we needed something other than

the information processing model.

522

: 00:33:32

I talk about a bit with

that in the early 80s.

523

: 00:33:36

sorry, the late 80s with paper

with Susanne, Beyond the Interface,

524

: 00:33:40

Encountering Artifacts in Use, which

appeared in Jack Carroll's book.

525

: 00:33:45

But that talks a bit about that history.

526

: 00:33:47

But to me it's, so just to go back

when you kind of prompted about

527

: 00:33:51

eclecticism, I just wanted to, yes,

I do have wide interest history.

528

: 00:33:56

Geri: I guess I don't mean eclecticism

in a derogatory way, but, there's value

529

: 00:33:59

in, in having the interest, the skills,

the intellectual capacity to make

530

: 00:34:05

these links and draw these connections.

531

: 00:34:07

a um, there's a particular role that,

um, There's a, and there's a particular,

532

: 00:34:12

I don't know, move intellectually as a

community that we get from those sorts of

533

: 00:34:17

discussions that we don't get just from

those of us who might stay within a little

534

: 00:34:22

bubble or a silo or very narrow area.

535

: 00:34:24

Liam: Well, I think there's a space, and

maybe it, what I would say, because I

536

: 00:34:29

sometimes feel like Forrest Gump because

I, I feel like I appeared in places.

537

: 00:34:34

I I happen be fortunate appeared,

by chance in a way, a lot of

538

: 00:34:39

interesting points of inflection there.

539

: 00:34:41

Geri: Which this nice, this article

sort of draws out really really nicely.

540

: 00:34:45

Liam: Yeah, because I got, for

instance, being with Don Normans

541

: 00:34:50

and Steve Draper, the user centered

human computer interaction project.

542

: 00:34:55

Human Machine Interaction Project

at UC San Diego in the early 80s.

543

: 00:35:00

That was one of the early,

very early HCI projects.

544

: 00:35:04

And

545

: 00:35:04

Geri: Yeah.

546

: 00:35:05

Liam: I'd, again, they found me

interesting because I'd done this

547

: 00:35:09

psychology and computing, human

factors, I'd been at Honeywell,

548

: 00:35:12

I had this human factors and

computer systems sort of thing.

549

: 00:35:16

And so there weren't many people

with, there weren't undergraduate

550

: 00:35:18

programs and sort of stuff.

551

: 00:35:20

So that was interesting.

552

: 00:35:21

I mean, I met a A lot of interesting

people there and, as I said, I also

553

: 00:35:25

have links to other people at San

Diego outside of the Cognitive Science

554

: 00:35:29

group who also were influential to me.

555

: 00:35:32

People in Sociology, I took

a course in Ethnomethodology

556

: 00:35:35

from Bud Mehan at that time.

557

: 00:35:37

And then by chance I met

Lucy Suchman at that time.

558

: 00:35:40

I had connections with people at

Xerox PARC, and was influenced

559

: 00:35:45

by some people there, and that

got me thinking about things.

560

: 00:35:48

And then I was back in Dublin working

on a conference where I had an influence

561

: 00:35:52

of a sociologist friend of mine.

562

: 00:35:55

Uh, and she was much interested in

the larger, kind of more, Socialist

563

: 00:36:04

understanding of science and technology,

and it opened my mind, it moved me

564

: 00:36:08

out of this narrow refrain that I had

been having, but it opened me out to a

565

: 00:36:13

larger literature on the sociology of

science and on, um, kind of theories

566

: 00:36:19

of, of human labor and practice.

567

: 00:36:22

And then I had the PD,

Participative Design Influence.

568

: 00:36:25

I met some people, Morten Kyng, and

Pelle Ehn, and Susanne Bødker, and they,

569

: 00:36:31

And then they kindly invited me to come

with them because they were interested

570

: 00:36:35

in making a link with the San Diego

HCI, this this emerging HCI community.

571

: 00:36:41

So I went there, and then while they were

there, they had this link with the new,

572

: 00:36:46

Rank Xerox EuroPARC group that was set

up in Cambridge in England and so I went

573

: 00:36:51

there and then I made contact with some

of the sociologists there, Christian Heath

574

: 00:36:55

and David Randall and Richard Harper and

other people who were, uh, connected.

575

: 00:37:02

Geri: So all of this, you've just

talked about lots of travel and

576

: 00:37:06

living in lots of different places.

577

: 00:37:07

What's been, can you reflect on that

just as a, I don't know, from a lived

578

: 00:37:14

experience perspective in terms of putting

down roots or not, or what was the costs

579

: 00:37:19

of, of needing or doing all those moves or

the advantages of doing all those moves?

580

: 00:37:25

Liam: A A couple of big ones.

581

: 00:37:26

Let's see, the first

move outside of Ireland.

582

: 00:37:28

I mean Ireland in the, in the late 60s,

early 70s was still, uh, very closed in

583

: 00:37:36

certain ways and I just felt it's still

very, in certain ways, I felt limiting and

584

: 00:37:42

limited and I wanted to explore elsewhere.

585

: 00:37:45

It's not, you know, I had this idea of

if I stayed in Ireland, so at that time a

586

: 00:37:49

lot of people did, they did their training

one country and got and got positions.

587

: 00:37:53

Geri: A lot of people do, yeah.

588

: 00:37:54

Liam: but I was curious, I wanted to

learn, I wanted to, Visit other countries.

589

: 00:37:58

I, I hadn't visited Ireland.

590

: 00:38:01

Wasn't in the EU at this stage, you

know, it was, so we were traveling

591

: 00:38:05

to the continent was a big thing.

592

: 00:38:06

I didn't have much travel

at all, so I wanted to go to

593

: 00:38:10

an English speaking country.

594

: 00:38:12

Um, well, because I didn't think

it'd be easy to, it wasn't easy to

595

: 00:38:15

go to Europe at that time or work in

France or Italy without the language.

596

: 00:38:21

So

597

: 00:38:22

I had to definitely felt, okay, I'll go

away for the, and then when I got there.

598

: 00:38:27

There were two types of people

I met who left from Ireland.

599

: 00:38:30

One group were people who hated Ireland,

like they'd gotten fed up and really

600

: 00:38:34

said, I'm never going back, I want to go

wherever, US, Australia, wherever, away.

601

: 00:38:39

And there were other people who

were very definitely going away for

602

: 00:38:41

some training, but they definitely

were coming back, you know.

603

: 00:38:45

I didn't fit in either category,

I was just, wasn't sure, I

604

: 00:38:48

didn't have a fixed view.

605

: 00:38:50

So I went and then I got the option to

go to the States for a year, I did that

606

: 00:38:54

in Minnesota, then I got the I came back

and did a little bit of consulting in

607

: 00:38:58

Ireland, just briefly, in between things.

608

: 00:39:00

Then I got the chance for the post

doc in California, so I moved there.

609

: 00:39:04

Geri: So you never had this career

plan from the sounds of it, it's been

610

: 00:39:08

really in the moment and responding

to opportunities or taking advantage

611

: 00:39:13

of opportunities as they rose.

612

: 00:39:15

Liam: Yeah, yeah, that's um, Yeah, I

didn't actually, you know, at the end

613

: 00:39:22

of my PhD, I was, it ended up, thesis

was still connected with this earlier

614

: 00:39:28

sort of issue around representations

cognitivist models and that.

615

: 00:39:32

I didn't feel happy doing that.

616

: 00:39:34

continuing with that sort of stuff.

617

: 00:39:36

So I, in a sense, had a bit of

a dilemma about what to do next.

618

: 00:39:40

So I was, in a sense, fortunate because

of this HCI interest that, and the

619

: 00:39:46

connections that my supervisor still had.

620

: 00:39:48

So I had sort of entry points into some

good places, and then I got taken up.

621

: 00:39:54

I had the option, actually, of going to

work in an office automation consulting

622

: 00:39:58

firm in Toronto or move to San Diego.

623

: 00:40:02

Geri: Somehow I can't see

you in an office automation.

624

: 00:40:05

Liam: It's an interesting group.

625

: 00:40:06

It was the former Bell Northern

lab that Don Tapscott set up.

626

: 00:40:11

But anyway, so I moved to California

and then I did something else.

627

: 00:40:15

I actually stopped and

went traveling in Asia.

628

: 00:40:19

So one of the funny little anecdotes is

if you look at the user centered, the

629

: 00:40:24

system design book, and you look at the

front, at the list of contributors, you

630

: 00:40:28

have all these people, you know, MIT

Media Lab, uh, Xerox PARC, University

631

: 00:40:33

of California, San Diego, you know.

632

: 00:40:35

And then there's one address that's not a

university address, and it's 16 Fortfield

633

: 00:40:40

Avenue, Ternier, Dublin 6, Ireland.

634

: 00:40:43

That's my parent address, it's my home.

635

: 00:40:46

Because at that stage, when the book came

out in book 86, I was traveling in Asia,

636

: 00:40:51

Geri: You're a peripatetic academic.

637

: 00:40:53

Liam: I intended to spend a couple

of months, I thought, but I ended up

638

: 00:40:56

spending almost two years on the road.

639

: 00:40:59

outside of academia.

640

: 00:41:00

So my CV has this one

line which says on leave.

641

: 00:41:05

Geri: So did that impact, well it

doesn't sound like it impacted, you know.

642

: 00:41:08

Liam: It was difficult I mean

actually a lot of my friends

643

: 00:41:11

said you can't you can't stop.

644

: 00:41:14

Geri: I know, there's that

sense that you can't stop.

645

: 00:41:15

Liam: was difficult to be honest arriving

I arrived back in I moved to Aarhus in

646

: 00:41:23

January in 2000 sorry 19 88, and I've been

basically on the road from July of 85.

647

: 00:41:36

Geri: Wow.

648

: 00:41:38

Liam: So, and I came back into a

research group into living in a small

649

: 00:41:43

apartment and into another country

where, yes, my work colleagues, we spoke

650

: 00:41:49

English, but it was another country.

651

: 00:41:52

They don't, they actually

speak Danish, I guess.

652

: 00:41:55

Um, That was, it took a while, yeah.

653

: 00:41:59

It was, was, was a bit

a at a personal level.

654

: 00:42:03

It was, uh, it was, uh, ended up having

You know, some interesting good times, you

655

: 00:42:08

know, but it was, yeah, it was not easy.

656

: 00:42:11

I was, but I've always been

a bit of a loner, I guess.

657

: 00:42:14

So I, I'm never really certain about,

as other people who know me as I'm

658

: 00:42:20

not so good at making decisions.

659

: 00:42:21

At the same time, I actually

made some of these rather big

660

: 00:42:24

Geri: Yeah, big, yeah.

661

: 00:42:25

Liam: where I fell into them.

662

: 00:42:26

Geri: I mean, one of them, you

stopped working formally, would

663

: 00:42:31

you say retired a few years ago, and

you've also had an interesting last

664

: 00:42:34

couple of years, since then as well.

665

: 00:42:39

Liam: well, okay, I skip over after,

or quickly, I was a couple of years

666

: 00:42:46

in Aarhus, but I wasn't sure if that

was a computer science department, and

667

: 00:42:49

again, I still have this feeling that I

wasn't quite sure if that was the home

668

: 00:42:54

I should have, because I felt in terms

of the profile of what people should

669

: 00:42:58

be, even though there was space there

for the systems development group, it

670

: 00:43:03

still was a bit of an issue for me.

671

: 00:43:04

So

672

: 00:43:05

Geri: So what people should be in

terms of what a good academic, a CV

673

: 00:43:10

looks like, is that what you mean?

674

: 00:43:11

Liam: in the context of computer science,

being a member, being a senior faculty

675

: 00:43:16

member in computer science, and what

kinds of courses you should be teaching.

676

: 00:43:20

My interest over the years has even

moved further away from, in a sense,

677

: 00:43:25

the details of the technology per se,

and more into kind of understanding

678

: 00:43:30

the practices and the, so I guess,

and the . sociologist, sociological,

679

: 00:43:35

anthropological kind of interest.

680

: 00:43:35

So, I'm, it just felt, yeah, I, in a

sense as I said, I, I, I felt at one

681

: 00:43:42

stage I would like to try to create a

new sort of discipline that some sort

682

: 00:43:48

of media and informatics or social

informatics, although the way in which

683

: 00:43:53

some of that media work is gone, I

would question a little bit, I think

684

: 00:43:57

it's become, or some of it I don't

find, so it's become too text based

685

: 00:44:03

and too removed from actual practice.

686

: 00:44:06

So it's really, where are the

home, where was your home, you

687

: 00:44:09

know, one's intellectual home.

688

: 00:44:11

Because it's interesting, like if

I look at certain committees now,

689

: 00:44:15

and there's an arts and humanities

group, there's a social science

690

: 00:44:19

group, there's a engineering [And

you can relate to all of them]

691

: 00:44:23

I can relate to all of and them,

And in actual fact, some of the

692

: 00:44:26

things I do and some of the people I

know or even have worked with would

693

: 00:44:29

be in each of those categories.

694

: 00:44:31

But if I go up for review by any one

of those, they they look at me and say,

695

: 00:44:36

you're not a psychologist, you're not

publishing in psychology, you're not

696

: 00:44:40

a sociologist, you're not a computer

scientist, you're not a media theorist.

697

: 00:44:46

And so in that sense, there's a

698

: 00:44:48

potential price in that . And I think

it happens with new interdisciplinary

699

: 00:44:52

fields, so like, we've had that discussion

a bit more recently about CSCW, that

700

: 00:44:59

certain faculty people feel that it's,

in their, younger people, that it's a

701

: 00:45:04

problem because of, like, in terms of

if they say they do CSCW, it doesn't

702

: 00:45:09

necessarily help in their promotions

committee or whatever, and I understand

703

: 00:45:14

that, that, that problem, that on the

one hand, Some of these areas are where

704

: 00:45:20

interesting things are happening, but

it really is maybe a bleeding edge.

705

: 00:45:25

That it's leading edge in the

sense of it's bringing together new

706

: 00:45:29

areas and there is sometimes a real

buzz and some real energy in the

707

: 00:45:34

confluence of these different areas.

708

: 00:45:36

But there also is a price to pay

709

: 00:45:38

Geri: Yeah.

710

: 00:45:39

Liam: It can be difficult to get

acceptance or there may be new journals

711

: 00:45:43

appearing which you can get into but

then those don't get ranked highly

712

: 00:45:48

and so your, uh, your publication

channels are reduced and so yeah, it's

713

: 00:45:53

Geri: So what would you say to a

younger academic now who's dealing

714

: 00:45:57

with some of those questions?

715

: 00:45:59

Liam: Well at the end of the road at

the end of the road, like, you know, if

716

: 00:46:04

you look back on, on your life, I think

it's maybe hard to consider this when

717

: 00:46:08

you're in your late 20s or early 30s

and doing your post doc or trying to get

718

: 00:46:14

your first position and get tenure and,

I mean, the pressures are, I do believe

719

: 00:46:20

that the pressures on young academics

are ferocious these days, much worse than

720

: 00:46:25

it used to be, and there used to be more

space for people to do their own thing.

721

: 00:46:31

There were, in different countries,

people had different, used to be

722

: 00:46:34

in some of the northern European

countries, there was more scope

723

: 00:46:38

for people to carve their own path.

724

: 00:46:41

But I mean, there's this relentless

pressure worldwide, also in terms of a

725

: 00:46:46

homogenization of programs, a reduction

in what counts as good science, good work.

726

: 00:46:54

Um, and I think this is really flawed

and problematic and that it tends to end

727

: 00:47:00

up coming to a least common denominator.

728

: 00:47:02

Of course there was some

shoddy work done at the edges.

729

: 00:47:05

I'm not denying that.

730

: 00:47:06

But the point is that there's also new

ideas and, and kind of ways of thinking

731

: 00:47:12

about problems that really, if we don't

allow that, if we don't give people

732

: 00:47:16

some space to think outside the box,

like we're going to be stuck in the box.

733

: 00:47:20

it's and it's a very small, I

believe it's a very small box.

734

: 00:47:24

So I, in terms of advice to young people,

I think it's very difficult and I, I don't

735

: 00:47:30

want to belittle the problem that's there.

736

: 00:47:34

And I haven't really, to be honest, I

haven't given enough thought to this.

737

: 00:47:39

I mean, I, what I've tried to do when

I had some control or influence myself

738

: 00:47:44

and I had some support or resources was

to create a space and I used to say,

739

: 00:47:49

this is probably a rather weak um, line,

but I wanted to try and create a space

740

: 00:47:56

where we could have interesting people

and give them some freedom to do things.

741

: 00:48:00

Now, some of that turned

out not to be very good.

742

: 00:48:03

Some of it turned out not to work.

743

: 00:48:05

Some of it turned out to

be really interesting.

744

: 00:48:07

And I think, I hope, that some of

the people who, when I did have the

745

: 00:48:11

lab in Limerick, the Interaction

Design Center, and with some of my

746

: 00:48:15

colleagues there, we did create a

space where I think we had, we had fun.

747

: 00:48:20

We, not just that it wasn't a sense

of being, um, selfish, make ourselves

748

: 00:48:25

but we tried to make a difference.

749

: 00:48:27

We tried to do something.

750

: 00:48:28

We tried to create linkages.

751

: 00:48:30

We brought in people.

752

: 00:48:31

I had people coming from

communication and media studies.

753

: 00:48:35

I had, um, One of my former

people, like my crew here.

754

: 00:48:40

We're speaking at the ECSCW conference.

755

: 00:48:43

There's now Professor Luigina Cio;lfi.

756

: 00:48:45

She came in from communication

and media studies from Siena.

757

: 00:48:49

I mean, we had people

from different countries.

758

: 00:48:51

We had, we had an architect, Parag,

who came from India, somebody

759

: 00:48:55

who was a qualified architect.

760

: 00:48:56

We had people from software engineering.

761

: 00:48:59

We had people from art and design school.

762

: 00:49:01

We started a new master's in

interactive media and many of the

763

: 00:49:05

students came in from the School

of Art and Design and that was

764

: 00:49:10

really influential and interesting

to have those people in our group.

765

: 00:49:14

So, we created an interesting space.

766

: 00:49:17

But, in a sense, because I wasn't,

and this is, I guess, my fault as

767

: 00:49:22

the leader, I wasn't focused enough

or determined enough, it, it was,

768

: 00:49:26

We probably didn't, within the

organization, we didn't push enough

769

: 00:49:31

on the policy or, or politics front.

770

: 00:49:34

We created a space and as long as I

brought in money, we could keep that space

771

: 00:49:40

because we were basically self sufficient.

772

: 00:49:42

We, most of the people in the

group are, we, we were paying

773

: 00:49:45

on grants soft money Yeah.

774

: 00:49:48

We didn't have many faculty positions.

775

: 00:49:51

And once that tied up near the end,

when I started having some health

776

: 00:49:55

issues and I became on that, I was

the only senior faculty member.

777

: 00:49:59

We'd wanted to other junior faculty,

but it, it was difficult wasn't seen

778

: 00:50:04

as strategic within the structure.

779

: 00:50:06

So it just shrank

780

: 00:50:08

Geri: it just Yeah, so the politics

is important, but it would be

781

: 00:50:11

exhausting as well, and it's always

decisions and trade offs, isn't

782

: 00:50:15

it, where you devote your energy?

783

: 00:50:16

Liam: It is.

784

: 00:50:17

Yeah.

785

: 00:50:17

And I, well, I think one of the

things is that you've got to, it's

786

: 00:50:22

really important to try and have

collaborators, whether they're in

787

: 00:50:26

the same faculty or not, or although

788

: 00:50:28

it can be difficult within the university

system, you may have good collaborators

789

: 00:50:32

in different faculties, but the problem

is they are, ultimately subservient

790

: 00:50:37

to their head of department or their

faculty and it can be problematic.

791

: 00:50:42

So, although there's a lot of lip

talk about interdisciplinarity and

792

: 00:50:46

creating new interdisciplinary research

institutes, you really need to have

793

: 00:50:51

a core group and the problem is that

we didn't, we never got critical

794

: 00:50:57

mass in terms of interdisciplinarity.

795

: 00:51:00

You know, regular faculty in that

group to make it sustainable.

796

: 00:51:05

So there are real issues.

797

: 00:51:06

But when you're struggling to actually

just do something here and on year,

798

: 00:51:10

it's also difficult to have that longer

term plan or to spend the time in the

799

: 00:51:16

politics side of it to try to work out.

800

: 00:51:19

But I,

801

: 00:51:20

Geri: You're making me think that in an

ideal world, so like what, what, what I

802

: 00:51:24

like that you did was just recognizing

that you didn't fit any neat silos,

803

: 00:51:30

but created your own and brought

people together and built something.

804

: 00:51:34

Liam: Mm-Hmm,

805

: 00:51:35

Geri: But it's also recognizing the

mix of skills you need to, to do that

806

: 00:51:39

sustainable long term perspective of it.

807

: 00:51:43

And like, I, I know I'm

not very good at politics.

808

: 00:51:45

So, you know, if I want to do something

about, I would need to think about that.

809

: 00:51:49

Bringing someone in who would, who's

going to be good at that politics

810

: 00:51:53

and external facing things and

811

: 00:51:54

Liam: Yeah, exactly.

812

: 00:51:55

I mean, I was just talking to another

senior person about this recently,

813

: 00:51:59

just at this conference, and I actually

was saying to this person that maybe

814

: 00:52:04

they should think about, yeah, hiring

somebody on the PR communications or

815

: 00:52:09

this side of it, you know, or to have a

chief operating officer or somebody to.

816

: 00:52:14

The problem, of course, is how you justify

that on soft money in your own project.

817

: 00:52:18

it can be difficult to actually

get full salary for somebody.

818

: 00:52:22

Geri: But recognizing that we

now, to operate in these sorts

819

: 00:52:25

of environments, and to do the

interesting research at these cross

820

: 00:52:28

disciplinary edges, we need more than

just good academic research skills.

821

: 00:52:33

Liam: Sure, sure.

822

: 00:52:34

I think that, yeah, I mean, To be honest,

I mean, I don't, I never really felt I

823

: 00:52:40

wanted to be a director, manager sort of

person and near the end, like with several

824

: 00:52:45

projects and I couldn't myself be involved

in all the projects and it became like you

825

: 00:52:50

felt a loss of, and that's actually what's

made me feel it's time to, I need to step

826

: 00:52:58

out of this because we were still doing

things and we had projects, but I was

827

: 00:53:02

becoming more and more removed and some of

the personal interests I had were not the

828

: 00:53:08

things that were being funded So we had to

go after funding to support the people But

829

: 00:53:14

they were in some cases a bit more removed

from what I found really interesting

830

: 00:53:19

And so I it started a realization

that Here I was working on a couple of

831

: 00:53:24

things, which I was doing on my own, in

my own time, that I found motivating.

832

: 00:53:29

One of those was about forgetting

and remembering and forgetting.

833

: 00:53:34

It was a topic that I was quite

fascinated by, but I didn't have

834

: 00:53:39

the time and the space to actually

package it as a research proposal.

835

: 00:53:43

Geri: And that was the thing

that was really exciting and fun.

836

: 00:53:46

Liam: At time there were these other

projects which I needed to be more

837

: 00:53:49

hands on working with, and I wasn't.

838

: 00:53:51

I was kind of missing from my group during

that, and I realized, no, this is not,

839

: 00:53:56

Geri: it's not where your energy was.

840

: 00:53:57

Liam: Yeah, it's, and also I had some,

at that time I had some health issues

841

: 00:54:02

were just taking my energy away, so,

because I lived a lot of my life, I've

842

: 00:54:07

been, yeah, relationships, and I, I

actually probably, sacrificed too much.

843

: 00:54:16

I kind of got wrapped up

in this academic world.

844

: 00:54:19

In other words, of course, I

met a lot of really good people.

845

: 00:54:23

And that there were people who are not

just my academic colleagues, but also

846

: 00:54:26

were social friends and collaborators

over several years around Europe that I

847

: 00:54:31

still value highly, but it's not, they're

not actually there necessarily when you

848

: 00:54:38

go back to where is home and suddenly

what is home and That became a question.

849

: 00:54:43

I was, you can, there's a dilemma

sometimes, you move so often.

850

: 00:54:47

I talk about that sometimes

with people who've moved.

851

: 00:54:50

I went back to Ireland, yes, but I never,

in some ways a part of me has never really

852

: 00:54:56

fully settled back there And also I'm not

a really part of the establishment there.

853

: 00:55:01

Geri: In the academic the academic

sense or in the local community sense?

854

: 00:55:05

Liam: in the academic sense or in the

local community because I, I don't.

855

: 00:55:10

While I have had partnerships, I haven't

really settled, and I don't have children,

856

: 00:55:14

I don't have, in terms of embedding

yourself in the local environment, so.

857

: 00:55:19

so I've, and I've been away a lot, so,

as time goes on, you suddenly realize

858

: 00:55:26

that we are still, although we talk

about nomadic life, I mean, there's an

859

: 00:55:32

element also in which we're still, we

still need place, we need groundedness.

860

: 00:55:36

and it can be difficult.

861

: 00:55:39

It can be difficult and balancing

these things as you go through

862

: 00:55:42

your career can be quite difficult.

863

: 00:55:44

Geri: I'm sort of connecting that

to what your, what your theme of

864

: 00:55:48

your own research is, which is about

being human, you know, at the core.

865

: 00:55:54

We are people

866

: 00:55:54

Liam: I mean, At the core.

867

: 00:55:56

Part of it for me, in terms of

moving places, was to learn.

868

: 00:55:59

You know, like I'm, as I said, it's not,

that I have this theory and I'm trying

869

: 00:56:04

to beat everybody over the head with it.

870

: 00:56:07

But what I do have is a

stance, a perspective.

871

: 00:56:10

and we can use the term human centered

design, although I, for other, just like

872

: 00:56:14

I don't like some of the other labels, I

don't particularly like that label, for

873

: 00:56:18

reasons I might go into another time.

874

: 00:56:21

But, it did, it was an attempt to

at least say, my interest is around,

875

: 00:56:26

people and the world in which they live,

which and the ecosystem in which they

876

: 00:56:32

are in, which includes other people,

artifacts, the workplace, their physical

877

: 00:56:40

neighborhood, you know, the environment.

878

: 00:56:42

So in that sense, I'm interested in that

whole ecosystem and systems thinking.

879

: 00:56:48

I mean, that's why I'm interested in

going back and trying to bring in some

880

: 00:56:52

aspects from even earlier literature.

881

: 00:56:56

What are there still things of relevance

in the socio technical literature, even

882

: 00:57:00

in some of the cybernetics literature,

second order cybernetics especially, which

883

: 00:57:05

included the observer in the process,

not just about the technical system.

884

: 00:57:11

Yeah, so it's a, as I said, I

think my, role is, as I said,

885

: 00:57:16

not as some visionary visionary.

886

: 00:57:19

I don't think, or somebody who is

a theorist actually, but, somebody

887

: 00:57:23

maybe who in a sense was trying to

ask questions and, and and trying to

888

: 00:57:30

raise questions which at the time maybe

within the field, certainly within the

889

: 00:57:34

computing field, were not being asked

very much and so they were at least

890

: 00:57:39

trying to open the door, maybe that's a

way to put it as a for opening a door.

891

: 00:57:46

Letting a chink of light

into other work, and

892

: 00:57:50

Geri: And doors are connections.

893

: 00:57:52

Liam: Yeah, making connections.

894

: 00:57:54

Like if people are curious, the last,

that little Forgetting paper, which

895

: 00:58:00

I actually quite like because it's

appeared in Co Design, the journal,

896

: 00:58:05

in 2006, I'm not sure, but it's called

Forgetting is a Feature, Not a Bug.

897

: 00:58:11

The main message was really just saying

that this fascination about the capture

898

: 00:58:15

of things, video recording, SenseCam,

Microsoft SenseCam, this idea of you know,

899

: 00:58:20

suddenly we're going to record thousands

of images and we're going to record every

900

: 00:58:24

phone call and every commu Somehow that

this was in a, like going to increase

901

: 00:58:29

our awareness of the world and our kind

of our memory of ourselves and whatever.

902

: 00:58:36

There seemed to me a fundamental lack

of understanding in these visions,

903

: 00:58:40

these bizarre visions, techno visions,

of what it was to be human, what

904

: 00:58:45

it was to be a person in the world.

905

: 00:58:47

How remembering is an active process, it's

not a computer recording of something.

906

: 00:58:54

How forgetting is an integral

part of our human activity.

907

: 00:58:59

How social forgetting is also an important

part And of course It's important we

908

: 00:59:05

don't forget certain things, I mean,

or we'll repeat mistakes of the past.

909

: 00:59:09

But there's a sense in which forgetting,

to a point, as a, thinking about it as

910

: 00:59:14

a design issue, that there are times

when we don't want to be recorded.

911

: 00:59:19

And to think about that as a design

space, so it's not for or against a

912

: 00:59:23

particular capture model, it's to try and

create scenarios that are believable in

913

: 00:59:31

the sense of what it means to be human.

914

: 00:59:34

And when I read in the early days, say,

of ambient intelligence, which is, I think

915

: 00:59:39

of as the second or third coming of AI,

there's this notion of us being surrounded

916

: 00:59:44

by these intelligent artifacts that would

do things for us, that would be agents for

917

: 00:59:50

us, and human like that we would discuss.

918

: 00:59:53

It seemed to me that it was like a

very strange, perfect world that didn't

919

: 01:00:01

make any sense and it was really in

the context of that that I started to

920

: 01:00:06

developing this issue around forgetting.

921

: 01:00:08

But the other thing I wanted to say

about that article is, again, it's

922

: 01:00:13

not a standard scientific article,

but it's a walk through a space,

923

: 01:00:18

and in that walk I kind of try to

link to history, to philosophy, to

924

: 01:00:23

psychology, to sociology, to law.

925

: 01:00:28

I mean, because people have talked

about issues around forgetting and

926

: 01:00:33

memory and history in all these areas,

and I believe that making us aware of

927

: 01:00:41

some of these nuances might make us

come up with more believable scenarios.

928

: 01:00:47

And another area that I would mention

just briefly would be in the health

929

: 01:00:51

area where again, or the intelligent

home assisted living and some of these

930

: 01:00:57

areas where again, I think we too

often start with a piece of technology.

931

: 01:01:02

And thankfully now in the last few

years, I think we're starting to

932

: 01:01:05

get the message across . I talk

about that a little in a: 2012

933

: 01:01:10

paper on, uh, in the interactions,

934

: 01:01:15

...

Geri: I'll put a link to all of these on the web page.

935

: 01:01:18

So Liam, any comments in closing?

936

: 01:01:22

Liam: In a way, when I look back at at

some of the things I've done, I think

937

: 01:01:27

I've been very fortunate just to happen

to be kind of in spaces and places where

938

: 01:01:33

things were changing and I happened to be

interested in those ages and I've had some

939

: 01:01:40

bleeding at those edges, but actually most

of the time I've actually been able to

940

: 01:01:45

have a good view and, and to actually walk

with people, really interesting people.

941

: 01:01:50

[I've learned so interesting

yeah, I've and places].

942

: 01:01:53

I feel so fortunate in in the colleagues

I've had and in, in the journey I've

943

: 01:01:59

had with people kind of, and I've

learned so much over these years, but.

944

: 01:02:05

At the same time, I think there's a

core there, which is always that I

945

: 01:02:09

started out with this interest and

concern with people and their world,

946

: 01:02:16

and it's still, that's still there.

947

: 01:02:18

It's just such a richer framework

and understanding I have of

948

: 01:02:22

that now than when I started

949

: 01:02:25

But, uh, the, and maybe some of it, in

terms of any message to anybody or what

950

: 01:02:31

they might find of interest, is that.

951

: 01:02:34

In some of the bits and pieces

I've written, actually a lot of

952

: 01:02:38

them are kind of essays, really.

953

: 01:02:39

They're kind of perspectives

or positionings.

954

: 01:02:42

One of my favorite words is,

two of my favorite words are

955

: 01:02:45

framing and perspectives.

956

: 01:02:47

And that's in some of the

work in design around framing.

957

: 01:02:51

What is a problem?

958

: 01:02:52

Problem formulation is very important

to me because I think very often

959

: 01:02:57

we start to solve a problem without

knowing what the problem is.

960

: 01:03:00

It's the wrong problem.

961

: 01:03:02

So I think a lot of the time

having a look at how you

962

: 01:03:06

understand what it is you're doing.

963

: 01:03:08

What is the frame you're in?

964

: 01:03:10

Are you comfortable with it?

965

: 01:03:11

Is it, is there, does it seem that it's

actually suitable for what you're doing?

966

: 01:03:17

So I think Some people find that at times

refreshing that they've, maybe, some of

967

: 01:03:23

the things open a little vista or open

that little door into a space maybe

968

: 01:03:28

they hadn't thought about and I'm happy

if, to hear if it encourages people not

969

: 01:03:34

to follow me in a particular path but

rather to actually follow their own path.

970

: 01:03:40

In um, In the sense of actually

exploring something that maybe is not

971

: 01:03:45

necessarily approved by your immediate

superior or whatever, but that is what

972

: 01:03:51

the road you feel you want to travel.

973

: 01:03:53

Geri: Yep, yep.

974

: 01:03:55

Liam: So, go do it.

975

: 01:03:55

Geri: Go do it, yes, yep.

976

: 01:03:58

And so, thank you.

977

: 01:03:59

And, just in terms of influence, I was

reminded then that there was a book

978

: 01:04:05

some years ago, Where we were asked to

contribute a chapter that reflected what

979

: 01:04:10

was really influential in our work.

980

: 01:04:13

And the paper that I wrote about

was the paper that you and Kjeld

981

: 01:04:17

wrote, in the early days of CSCW.

982

: 01:04:19

And how that, that's been

really influential in setting

983

: 01:04:24

my own career trajectory off.

984

: 01:04:26

So, I personally have

a lot to thank you for.

985

: 01:04:29

And just thank you for your time now

986

: 01:04:32

Liam: And it's interesting, to try

to articulate a vision because at that

987

: 01:04:36

time we had seen some work in CSCW

which seemed to rather than opening

988

: 01:04:42

out the space, the possibilities of

the technology, was starting to embed

989

: 01:04:47

within the technology protocols for, for

instance, embedding social protocols in

990

: 01:04:52

the technology now at the group level.

991

: 01:04:55

And so to, to me this was.

992

: 01:04:59

anathema to the idea

of what CSCW should be.

993

: 01:05:02

And then the interest in trying

to say, we're not talking, we're

994

: 01:05:05

not starting with the technology.

995

: 01:05:07

So we parse CSCW from right

to left, not left to right.

996

: 01:05:11

We try to understand work, cooperative

work, supporting it, and then we

997

: 01:05:16

talk about the role of technology.

998

: 01:05:18

Geri: So this is a perfect example

of your framing and perspective

999

: 01:05:22

Liam: Yeah, thank you.

: 1000

01:05:23,229 --> 01:05:28,909

, I, I think we're, both Kjeld and I are,

are very happy to see that the paper,

: 1001

01:05:28,909 --> 01:05:32,669

although it was published initially

in this obscure brand new journal.

: 1002

01:05:32,804 --> 01:05:34,674

of CSCW.

: 1003

01:05:35,304 --> 01:05:39,034

the journal which we actually

started, um, along with some others.

: 1004

01:05:39,774 --> 01:05:44,764

But, uh, it's really nice to see that

people still find that, it gives a

: 1005

01:05:45,594 --> 01:05:51,064

position and it articulates a position

on a set of issues which people still

: 1006

01:05:51,484 --> 01:05:52,529

Geri: still find relevant.

: 1007

01:05:52,859 --> 01:05:53,099

Yeah.

: 1008

01:05:54,059 --> 01:05:58,339

Which is also a good story about

starting the new journal, new

: 1009

01:05:58,339 --> 01:06:03,049

conference, new interdisciplinary

research area that's was new then and

: 1010

01:06:03,049 --> 01:06:05,089

just still exists and is more mainstream.

: 1011

01:06:05,089 --> 01:06:07,309

And that papers can

still get cited from it.

: 1012

01:06:07,549 --> 01:06:07,879

Liam: Mm-Hmm.

: 1013

01:06:08,389 --> 01:06:10,009

hmm.

: 1014

01:06:10,009 --> 01:06:10,279

Yep.

: 1015

01:06:11,234 --> 01:06:15,964

Geri: So Liam, thank you and

wishing you all the very best.

: 1016

01:06:19,324 --> 01:06:22,834

You can find the summary notes,

a transcript, and related

: 1017

01:06:22,834 --> 01:06:25,974

links for this podcast on www.

: 1018

01:06:26,034 --> 01:06:26,214

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: 1019

01:06:27,913 --> 01:06:28,304

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: 1020

01:06:28,964 --> 01:06:33,884

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: 1023

01:06:40,413 --> 01:06:43,484

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: 1024

01:06:43,484 --> 01:06:45,464

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